AmeliaBloomer
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Jun 26, 2014 5:01:45 GMT
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Jul 13, 2015 12:36:13 GMT
I just mentioned this in another thread: my son just got written tips about how to not-act-American during his upcoming semester in Germany. My daughter got a similar letter before studying in Italy.
I have absolutely no objection to advice about how to assimilate and - especially - be respectful of existing culture, but it makes me wonder if young people coming to the US get explicit advice about how NOT to act Japanese/German/Italian/British/French/ Brazilian - or if the same cultural advice is framed differently.
I think so many Americans are hyper-aware of the Ugly American reputation that we're extra vigilant about our behavior or appearance when traveling. But I'm starting to question the self-deprecating tone of a lot of the advice I read. (And believe me, I am far from jingoistic.) And I'm remembering that my daughter's blog (when in Europe) was littered with references to her and her friends as "just dumb Americans." When we discussed it, she feels like she "apologized her way through Europe."
There's a difference, I think, between having the ability to poke fun at yourself or being TOO self-deprecating, and I wonder how much the language that frames advice for these kids (from any source) affects that.
Thoughts?
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Post by gailoh on Jul 13, 2015 12:41:04 GMT
Maybe that needs to be done here...others come into our country and we have to not offend them...whats with that?
That is terrible "And I'm remembering that my daughter's blog (when in Europe) was littered with references to her and her friends as "just dumb Americans." When we discussed it, she feels like she "apologized her way through Europe."
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Post by Kelpea on Jul 13, 2015 12:43:54 GMT
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AmeliaBloomer
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Posts: 6,842
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Jun 26, 2014 5:01:45 GMT
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Jul 13, 2015 12:44:39 GMT
That is terrible "And I'm remembering that my daughter's blog (when in Europe) was littered with references to her and her friends as "just dumb Americans." When we discussed it, she feels like she "apologized her way through Europe." But the thing is, I'm not sure how much that came from reactions to her as it came from her being too self-conscious...and even a sort of it's-hip-to-make-fun-of-ourselves vibe they affected as a defense. I really don't know.
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Post by mollycoddle on Jul 13, 2015 12:52:14 GMT
I agree, Amelia. It does sometimes feel like some of us have a tendency to be too self-deprecating. Then again, you get the set of folks who talk loudly about American exceptionalism. So I do think that it's a mix.
What else did the letter suggest? I'm curious.
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Post by anxiousmom on Jul 13, 2015 12:52:55 GMT
I am hyper aware of acting like a tourist-even when I travel here in the US. I live in an area that relies heavily on tourism and long term visitors. I have seen the very worst of tourist behaviors-and there plenty of them and they are not limited to one country of origin.
In spite of being raised on the concept of the ugly Americans, I see a lot of those too. Maybe because they still within our own country and feel comfortable? I don't know, but they are here as travelers as well.
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valleyview
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Jun 27, 2014 18:41:26 GMT
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Post by valleyview on Jul 13, 2015 12:55:00 GMT
I think this became a habit after 9/11. I had a son in London for a semester, and the university immediately removed all sign and flags from the building. They then met with students to explain how not to call attention to themselves. This was based on the idea that any American people and property would be targets. That was a very tense time. He flew home the day after the shoe bomber event. You child is not being asked to apologize for being an American, he's being asked not to be provocative. By the way, DS had a great experience in London and Northern Europe. He blended in because he was thin, respectful, and wore plain clothing. ( non-logo) He lives abroad now and when he flies home, he complains about the American tendency to talk too much on the plane.
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peabay
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Jun 25, 2014 19:50:41 GMT
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Post by peabay on Jul 13, 2015 12:57:13 GMT
Two years ago, we were on the boat back from the Aran Islands in Ireland. Everyone was exhausted and looking forward to a quiet ride back. A gentleman from Ohio (I assume, based on his Ohio State jacket) yelled the whole way back. Talked 10 decibels louder than everyone else, guffawed...just behaved like a buffoon. Could it have been anyone from any country? Of course. But because he was so clearly American, it just reinforced the stereotype of the loud, obnoxious American. I was embarrassed because I felt like everyone was thinking: "ugh. Americans." So I don't mind people getting reminders. Not because Americans are always assholes but because the perception exists that we are.
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georgiapea
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Jun 27, 2014 18:02:10 GMT
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Post by georgiapea on Jul 13, 2015 12:57:47 GMT
Hopefully, we won't be acting as horribly as that link of Chinese tourists showed them being. Throwing hot water on a flight attendant? If all nations would impose penalties for their people acting rudely while traveling such behavior might improve.
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Post by Kelpea on Jul 13, 2015 13:04:14 GMT
Sadly, Georgiapea, it's becoming quite the thing for tourists to be openly rude, hostile and destructive of historical landmarks. Tourists in general are starting to be held accountable for their heinous actions by their own countries and even by their own people in other countries. I'm glad. Manners count.
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pudgygroundhog
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Jun 25, 2014 20:18:39 GMT
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Post by pudgygroundhog on Jul 13, 2015 13:20:50 GMT
Did your daughter feel she had to apologize? In the trips I've made to Europe I've never felt I had to apologize at all for being American. Most of the time, everybody we met was very nice. I don't know if it made a difference that on most of our trips we were also in areas that get very few American tourists (people were constantly surprised to meet people from NY!).
The reminders don't bother me. I often think these reminders are probably more for assholes in general, which you'll find in any country.
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AmeliaBloomer
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Jun 26, 2014 5:01:45 GMT
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Jul 13, 2015 13:32:26 GMT
I'm not objecting to the advice, or questioning the boorishness of many American tourists. I know we all have plenty of examples, sadly. I'm just wondering if we're the only ones who frame it the way we do, and how the tone of the advice affects identity among young people, and maybe even limits their interactions with locals. It bothered me the way my daughter internalized it. But maybe so many of them are so obtuse, they need it framed in the Ugly American context. mollycoddle: stuff like talking too loudly, not coming off as fake or flaky, not being ignorant of world events (especially the NSA!), having a stance on climate change, not jaywalking, be orderly in line, don't be late, use resources and utilities mindfully, ETA: not wearing sweatpants, yoga pants, sneakers,flip flops. All good advice (I feel like I'm going to have to repeat very often that I don't object to the advice, so for the record: I don't object to the advice!! I'm just getting "meta" about it.)
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peabay
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Post by peabay on Jul 13, 2015 13:53:25 GMT
I think this became a habit after 9/11. I had a son in London for a semester, and the university immediately removed all sign and flags from the building. They then met with students to explain how not to call attention to themselves. This was based on the idea that any American people and property would be targets. That was a very tense time. He flew home the day after the shoe bomber event. You child is not being asked to apologize for being an American, he's being asked not to be provocative. By the way, DS had a great experience in London and Northern Europe. He blended in because he was thin, respectful, and wore plain clothing. ( non-logo) He lives abroad now and when he flies home, he complains about the American tendency to talk too much on the plane. I have not been fortunate enough to ever travel internationally, so I have to ask..... Do Europeans really view Americans as FAT, DISRESPECTFUL, LOGO WEARING, and RUDE? ? Because those folks, who may be few and far between, stand out, unfortunately yes. Now I will tell a story of a time when my child confirmed a stereotype. She went to Brazil with a friend to visit his family there. She has bathroom issues - likes a clean bathroom, doesn't really like to poop in public etc... She and her friend went to a restaurant in Brazil (they were not in westernized big cities but rural areas) and the toilet was a hole in the ground. Her friend asked the owner of the restaurant where the nearest actual toilet was and the guy was like: "it's right there! What's the matter?" And her friend shrugged his shoulders and said: "she's American" and the owner said "ohhhhhh, I see" and pointed them to a more traditional toilet in a bathroom. Just with that one incident, that guy now thinks all Americans are spoiled, I'm sure.
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mallie
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Jul 3, 2014 18:13:13 GMT
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Post by mallie on Jul 13, 2015 13:59:47 GMT
One of my girls works at a major tourist destination which attracts enormous numbers of foreign tourists. She and her friends often comment on how tired they are of hearing about Ugly Americans Abroad who don't learn about the customs, when it's more than obvious most foreign visitors to the U.S. don't learn or care about US customs. There is one South American country whose visitors are particularly disliked for their __to American eyes-- extremely rude and antisocial behavior to the point where knowledgeable visitors time their visits to avoid them, but we're supposed to understand and accept that their ways are different. Why don't Americans get the same pass?
IMO, It's not peculiarly American to be ignorant of foreign ways, it's just acceptable to bash Americans.
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Post by MommyofTriplets on Jul 13, 2015 14:03:04 GMT
I studied abroad over 20 years ago and we got advice about fitting in back then. The one that's always stuck with me was "don't stop in the doorway or right in front of it when leaving." You'd be amazed how much I've noticed people doing this ever since then. I don't know if it's just an American thing, but we do it a lot.
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MerryMom
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Jul 24, 2014 19:51:57 GMT
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Post by MerryMom on Jul 13, 2015 14:05:49 GMT
My stepdaughter visited Russia in 1996 as part of a student exchange (not a year long exchange student thing) and they received a similar type of letter with the travel packet information.
I agree that it seems to be a "thing" to bash Americans. Oh yes, these places want the tourism dollars, but not the tourists!! I keep my tourists dollars in the US and in Ohio and I've visited many nice places here in Ohio.
I have detected a snide reference to Americans in many British films and TV shows as it appears to be "comedic". And France, forget about it.
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pudgygroundhog
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Post by pudgygroundhog on Jul 13, 2015 14:09:23 GMT
I think visitors of any nationality to any country should be courteous and thoughtful of others. Nobody gets a pass. Actually, I'll be more global than that. People should just be nicer period. I see plenty of Americans act as assholes in the US. And friction between tourists and locals happens everywhere. I see it when I go to NYC (as a visitor) and when NYC people come to where I live.
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Country Ham
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Jun 25, 2014 19:32:08 GMT
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Post by Country Ham on Jul 13, 2015 14:09:28 GMT
My husband is part of an exchange program and yes people from other countries are instructed on how to act as visitors within the US. How to act with their host families (we have hosted 2 so far) etc. BUT it's not done in this strange passive aggressive, borderline sarcastic way. It's simply "this is what to expect and how to best react to it" whereas my husband also got a "how not to act American and how to assimilate" etc. It's hard to explain. Most of the advice give to him was about being willing to enjoy and embrace a new culture rather then expecting US culture/food etc on foreign soil though. I think the self depreciating thing is cultural. A symptom of how we communicate negatively in general, a little bit of sarcasm here, a little passive aggressiveness there. Not just as how others view us but just observe how people talk to each other in general.
I think these letters came across to us as a bit tongue in cheek whereas the folks who came our way were instructed in a more business like way. We hosted a wonderful young lady from Mongolia for 2 weeks, and lady from the Netherlands for 2 weeks.
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Post by ljs1691 on Jul 13, 2015 14:09:47 GMT
My ds (18) is just getting ready to return from 11 months in Germany for his senior year of high school. They call him "Yank" and a couple other names I can't remember, but they have all treated him very well. He was never told not to act American. He has gotten a few looks for holding doors for women and offering his seat on the bus to a woman.
There is a particular group that I won't name, that could use some proper etiquette information prior to visitng Disney World though. I watched a woman (from said nationality) mow down everyone in her path with a stroller going down the monorail ramp on our last visit. So I guess I would not be upset if I received a letter about how to behave in another country.
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Peamac
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Jun 26, 2014 0:09:18 GMT
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Post by Peamac on Jul 13, 2015 14:10:04 GMT
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julieb
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Post by julieb on Jul 13, 2015 14:17:04 GMT
I opened the link thinking "not act American" was to protect the students from being targets of pick-pockets, etc. All three of my kids have studied abroad and none of them ever spoke of feeling the need to apologize for not knowing the culture and my dd was in France. I do remember being in Venice and the water taxi employee was a women. She spoke great English, but some jerk American was giving her a hard time about not understanding her and she went off on him. She said "You are in my country and I don't have to speak English". She went on for a good 2 minutes. I thought it was great.
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LeaP
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Jun 26, 2014 23:17:22 GMT
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Post by LeaP on Jul 13, 2015 14:17:12 GMT
I have not been fortunate enough to ever travel internationally, so I have to ask..... Do Europeans really view Americans as FAT, DISRESPECTFUL, LOGO WEARING, and RUDE? ? We are Americans living in Vancouver, Canada and I can tell you that the stereotype is well entrenched here. My kids have been told a number of times by their classmates about "stupid, fat Americans". Adults are too polite to say things like that, but the kids surely hear it somewhere and repeat it. The funny thing is that most of the locals regularly travel to Washington and California, so they interact with actual Americans and should know that it is a stereotype.
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AmeliaBloomer
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Posts: 6,842
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Jun 26, 2014 5:01:45 GMT
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Jul 13, 2015 14:21:39 GMT
My husband is part of an exchange program and yes people from other countries are instructed on how to act as visitors within the US. How to act with their host families (we have hosted 2 so far) etc. BUT it's not done in this strange passive aggressive, borderline sarcastic way. It's simply "this is what to expect and how to best react to it" whereas my husband also got a "how not to act American and how to assimilate" etc. It's hard to explain. Most of the advice give to him was about being willing to enjoy and embrace a new culture rather then expecting US culture/food etc on foreign soil though. I think the self depreciating thing is cultural. A symptom of how we communicate negatively in general, a little bit of sarcasm here, a little passive aggressiveness there. Not just as how others view us but just observe how people talk to each other in general. I think these letters came across to us as a bit tongue in cheek whereas the folks who came our way were instructed in a more business like way. We hosted a wonderful young lady from Mongolia for 2 weeks, and lady from the Netherlands for 2 weeks. Thank you. You have the ability to see through my (virtual) head. julieb, I didn't mean apologize for not knowing the culture. I should have explained "apologize her way through Europe," as I realize now that sounds pretty literal - more like often feeling apologetic for being American.
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Post by scrappyoutlaw on Jul 13, 2015 14:24:07 GMT
I don't think it's about being self-depreciating so much as it is about respecting the other cultures. We Americans are LOUD compared to many cultures. I think it's good to try and assimilate to other cultures when traveling so as to not disrupt others who aren't used to our boisterous ways!
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Post by SockMonkey on Jul 13, 2015 14:24:19 GMT
Amelia, would you be willing to share the letter here? I'd like to see the wording.
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Post by tallgirl on Jul 13, 2015 14:24:51 GMT
I don't think Americans are alone in being stereotyped based on their home country like this. Anyone who reads the Disboards website, for example, knows all about the reputation that the Brazilian tour groups have!
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AmeliaBloomer
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Jul 13, 2015 14:36:43 GMT
Amelia, would you be willing to share the letter here? I'd like to see the wording. I almost did and then thought better of it! You never know when someone will google her own writing... Basically, the professor listed conceptions about Americans, opined about whether they were true ("definitely true," "sometimes," "not really fair"), and then listed recommendations for how not to reinforce those conceptions. (I briefly listed them upthread.) There was a separate section for things that are uniquely German, so kinda' like How to act German, instead of How Not to Act American. There was a caution that Germans can be very direct, and not to take it personally.
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BarbaraUK
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Post by BarbaraUK on Jul 13, 2015 14:37:37 GMT
I think this became a habit after 9/11. I had a son in London for a semester, and the university immediately removed all sign and flags from the building. They then met with students to explain how not to call attention to themselves. This was based on the idea that any American people and property would be targets. That was a very tense time. He flew home the day after the shoe bomber event. You child is not being asked to apologize for being an American, he's being asked not to be provocative. By the way, DS had a great experience in London and Northern Europe. He blended in because he was thin, respectful, and wore plain clothing. ( non-logo) He lives abroad now and when he flies home, he complains about the American tendency to talk too much on the plane. This sort of statement always puzzles me when it's said by Americans in posts here. Honestly, the British and Europeans also wear logo clothing - and quite a few are of American football/baseball teams or have some to do with NY. They also wear trainers (sneakers/athletic shoes) and carry bags which sometimes have a logo emblazoned all over them and also wear colourful T-Shirts with pictures or sayings on them, or football teams, along with jeans which can have a logo visible. When we were in London a few weeks ago we saw several groups of children in tourist spots around London dressed in a variety of T-Shirts and jeans - and the only way some could be identified as American was by listening to them talk to each other. There are a lot of tourists around the UK and European countries where it is far easier to distinguish which part of the world they come from! We also have our less than stick thin people and people who can be less than respectful! To be honest, imo, Americans aren't usually so different that they stick out like sore thumbs, unless they are trying too hard not to look like Americans.....what normally identifies them is the accent when they speak of course. And that can be a minefield sometimes because so many identify Canadians as American at first! It always seems a shame to me that judging from posts on this board and other places so many Americans seem to feel they should be something different from what they really are when visiting the UK and/or Europe when it isn't at all necessary.
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Post by pierkiss on Jul 13, 2015 14:40:52 GMT
When we took our classes before our Spain trip, a BIG part of it involved assimilation and how not to be a stereotypical American. We were a little shocked at first, but then our teacher told us some behaviors she had personally witnessed from students in trips before, and it was bad. The lessons are necessary, in my opinion.
I'll never forget it. Our trip involved touring with 2 other schools. They absolutely did not have the same lessons we did (they were from different parts of the country). They were loud, only spoke English, refused to even try Spanish, always searching for a McDonalds, etc. on our bus ride home after staying with different families for a week we were discussing our experiences with each other. This girl piped up and went into a lot of proud detail about how she made her Spanish family speak English to her, she made them cook her American foods (hamburgers, hot dogs, etc), and she told them exactly where they were going to take her/do with her while she was staying in their home.
She said, and I quote, "This was MY European vacation and I was going to have it exactly the way I wanted!" We were floored. Absolutely floored. One of my friends finally spoke up and said, "Wow, what a horrible way to act to those people who opened their home to you. I bet they absolutely hate Americans now." She smirked and walked to the back of the bus with her friends. I will never ever forget seeing just how ugly some Americans can be in a foreign country. It was so disgraceful.
ETA: this was in the summer of 99, so before 9/11.
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Post by SockMonkey on Jul 13, 2015 14:44:51 GMT
If you save it as an image, it cannot be Googled for text.
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