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Post by ktdoesntscrap on Jul 13, 2015 18:32:21 GMT
I think this became a habit after 9/11. I had a son in London for a semester, and the university immediately removed all sign and flags from the building. They then met with students to explain how not to call attention to themselves. This was based on the idea that any American people and property would be targets. That was a very tense time. He flew home the day after the shoe bomber event. You child is not being asked to apologize for being an American, he's being asked not to be provocative. By the way, DS had a great experience in London and Northern Europe. He blended in because he was thin, respectful, and wore plain clothing. ( non-logo) He lives abroad now and when he flies home, he complains about the American tendency to talk too much on the plane. I have not been fortunate enough to ever travel internationally, so I have to ask..... Do Europeans really view Americans as FAT, DISRESPECTFUL, LOGO WEARING, and RUDE? ? Yep pretty much! When I first moved to London... it was in the late 90's, and I had travelled abroad extensively. I was shocked at how Americans were portrayed. I remember a morning show where the two main presenters would dress up like fat Americans and do all sorts of "funny" things. I was surprised, I often wanted to defend the Americans. Of course there was some truth to what they were saying. Americans do REALLY talk loudly. I got so used to lowering my voice that people in the US often tell me I speak too quietly. That said I rarely ran into anyone who treated me badly because I was an American. After a couple of years I often got mistaken for a Londoner. Even by Brits who would stop and ask me for directions and be surprised when my American accent popped out. I often heard how they loved Americans, and wanted to live in America, and how fabulous my accent was! My ex who is English and I would often play "who's team do they bat for" when we were traveling and we saw someone acting obnoxiously, we would try and guess if they were American or English. In Europe there are stereo types about all nationalities, I don't think the stereo types are just different. Long winded answer, yes I think other nationalities who are coming to the US get cultural information about not appearing "ugly" here.
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Post by Sam on Jul 13, 2015 18:40:29 GMT
I'm curious as to whether or not travelers from other countries are told what to wear/not to wear when here like Americans are told not to wear clothing such as sweatpants, flip flops, logos, etc. Is that to keep from being a target of crime, or because Europeans treat people differently if they are tourists or wearing different clothes than they usually wear? Maybe the letter that the OP's son got could have been something more in line with giving info about the culture, dress, language, and other customs of the country rather than "How not to be American" which gives the impression that being himself is not ok. To be fair, this is a very specific 'type' of traveller - kids/uni students and, yes, as others have commented, kids and young adults in other countries do have similar instruction. I can remember going on a school exchange to Germany when I was about 14 and (remember, I am not a dinosaur...yet) having our teachers told us 'not to mention the war'!!!! Now, the other UK peas will also remember a somewhat infamous episode of a certain comedy over here and can probably empathise with the teachers as it was on it's god-knows-what-number re-run before we went! I know I shared this on the other board, but when I was in London, we used to joke that you could always spot the American because they were the ones wearing the 'London, England' T-shirts! However, don't forget that other country's tourists are also stereo-typed.....have a good laugh at the fact that a lot of Europe, especially the summer tourist areas, (the world, maybe?) sees Brits as being loud, drunk and obnoxious. Oh, and drunk. In addition to that, they are drunk hooligans who only want egg and chips, or maybe ham and chips!
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Dalai Mama
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Jun 26, 2014 0:31:31 GMT
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Post by Dalai Mama on Jul 13, 2015 18:40:30 GMT
I'm curious as to whether or not travelers from other countries are told what to wear/not to wear when here like Americans are told not to wear clothing such as sweatpants, flip flops, logos, etc. Is that to keep from being a target of crime, or because Europeans treat people differently if they are tourists or wearing different clothes than they usually wear? Maybe the letter that the OP's son got could have been something more in line with giving info about the culture, dress, language, and other customs of the country rather than "How not to be American" which gives the impression that being himself is not ok. Out of curiosity, what would be on a 'what not to wear' list for foreigners visiting the US?
I'm in Toronto and we're currently hosting the Pan Am Games. Walking down the street at lunch (with this thread in mind) I was wondering if I would ever be able to pick out someone who was visiting vs someone who lives here. (51% of our population were born outside of Canada and, for 45%, English is their second language).
So, I couldn't guess what behaviours or clothing people visiting here would be warned away from. Everyone (and no one) stands out here.
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Post by Basket1lady on Jul 13, 2015 18:43:00 GMT
I live in suburbian Washington DC. Believe me, the stereotypes for other countries are alive and well. We have a lot of tourists here. A lot. I don't know if they are given hints on how not to act like their nationality, but when you are tired and confused by the local culture, I think it's natural for those mannerisms to come out. We've traveled a lot and with our kids, even when they were very young. We are a military family and lived in Seoul. It was weeks after 9-11 and we were given a lot of advice on how to blend in. First because it was polite, but then after 9-11, to attempt to blend in for security reasons. Even after two years, we never did blend in. My DH is 6' tall, I have red hair and the kids had blonde hair. But we learned to put hats on the kids and were told to tell people we were Canadian when asked. As a Canadian, I find it very disrespectful towards Canada when people from other countries claim Canada as their home & native land.
What is wrong with being identified as being an American? I understand the culture "of the after 9/11" but you simply cannot change the country from where you are from.
It's because Americans were being targeted at overseas locations. We weren't saying this to the schools or work, but casual acquaintances, such as vendors in a market. And I doubt we really fooled anyone. I expected to be known as an American in Seoul because there is a large military presence and I most certainly do not look Korean. But in England and Paris, we were pegged as Americans from the moment we said hello or bonjour. I'm assuming it was the accent, as we seemed to be dressed like any other person on the street. It wasn't meant to be disrespectful, it was meant to keep us from being targeted as we were buying bread and groceries. It was an incredibly tense time and I can't tell you how vulnerable I felt with North Korea flexing it's nuclear might, and two young children on what was essentially an island, with no way out other than by boat or by plane. We had thousands of dollars stashed in our apartment to bribe our way out and DH and I had a code that we used because our phone was tapped. I never let the van get more than a gallon or two below full and there were times when I had all our necessities stuffed into a backpack and ready to flee. We had a binder with all of our information in it, including our toe tags that I personally had to fill out. We were at Yongsan in Seoul, which was 7 war time minutes from the DMZ. My preschool aged children considered it routine to be escorted with guards carrying machine guns and bomb sniffing dogs. I can't even begin to describe how anxious i was living over there, in spite of how graciously the South Koreans treated us. I ended up coming back 6 months early because it was just. too. much.
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Post by anxiousmom on Jul 13, 2015 18:46:49 GMT
I recently traveled out of the Country and there were a few Americans on our tour who should have been given a letter about how to act. They were disgraceful and so full of themselves, making comparisons about how things were better in the US, blah, blah, blah. I just wanted to say, then go home! I just have to laugh...I said earlier that I live in an area that is driven by it's tourism, and we have a lot of winter friends who live here part time. If you substitute the words 'back home' for 'the US' this is a constant refrain that I hear. If I had a dollar for every time I heard someone say "that's not the way we do things back home" I would be be a wealthy, wealthy woman. I know a good many people who shake their heads and think 'if you don't like it, then just go home.'
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Deleted
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May 2, 2024 23:46:19 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2015 18:49:51 GMT
We have been bashed in our own home by our French friends. I said a few choice about plumbing, stable society and good schooling available to all.
When they realized that I was no longer going to take their America bashing, they became great friends.
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Post by sillyrabbit on Jul 13, 2015 18:49:40 GMT
I'm not sure that we should be offended that Americans stand out when in other countries. Every country has it's own unique style and culture. When we traveled out West a few years ago, we could always tell when we were near European men...American men don't generally wear capri pants or walk around in Speedos on a hiking trail. It's not wrong it's just something that is different than the norm here. No better no worse.
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quiltz
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Jun 29, 2014 16:13:28 GMT
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Post by quiltz on Jul 13, 2015 18:54:53 GMT
basket1lady, It is unfortunate that you were in that circumstance.
Unfortunately, you are American and had no claims to Canada. If all of your information proved that you were American and that you were lying about being Canadian, I can only image the horror of what might have happened to you.
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LeaP
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Jun 26, 2014 23:17:22 GMT
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Post by LeaP on Jul 13, 2015 19:09:59 GMT
'Should be a basic standard of living' according to who? Millions of people across the globe live perfectly well with this type of arrangement - it's just not what you're used to. Do you know how many people lacking basic sanitation suffer and die from totally preventable diseases such as cholera? There are many more, of course. You're used to sanitation and plumbing too. You like the idea of heading off to India drinking local water and shitting in a hole? Have at it. The best invention mankind ever made for civilization was modern water treatment and sanitation. That's really not debatable. Actually, we might be too clean: Scientific American: It might be bad to be too clean
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Deleted
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May 2, 2024 23:46:19 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2015 19:31:54 GMT
From someone who is planning to come to your country next summer....thank you!
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Post by KiwiJo on Jul 13, 2015 19:42:17 GMT
It's still hygienic and they have sanitation - the hole isn't just like a hole you dig in the yard - it's an actual bathroom set-up, there just isn't a toilet. It's called "à la turque" and it's common in quite a few places around the world. They are more uncommon now in France, but they used to be fairly easy to find. In some ways they are MORE hygienic than our toilet - nobody leaving a mess on the seat. You can see them here. I've both seen and heard of them, thanks. You let me know how they're more hygienic when someone sprays a load of diarrhea all over the floor and some elderly comes in and loses her balance trying to squat over a hole and lands in someone else's filth, which you can't even put a layer of toilet paper over (like you can a toilet seat). Sorry ladies, not backing down on this one. No way, no how. What country/countries have you experienced that in? I have travelled in several Middle Eastern countries where 'hole in the ground' toilets are the norm, and haven't come across problems such as you describe. Hotels in the main cities had western-style toilets of course, but out in the rural areas there were only hole-in-the-ground types; they were always tiled, though in poorer areas the tiles were sometimes cracked or broken - but they were always clean. I think that many people who are used to that sort of toilet, and think it very strange indeed to be faced with a western toilet where you are apparently expected to sit on the same seat that other people have sat on.
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peabay
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Posts: 9,598
Jun 25, 2014 19:50:41 GMT
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Post by peabay on Jul 13, 2015 20:26:08 GMT
I'm curious as to whether or not travelers from other countries are told what to wear/not to wear when here like Americans are told not to wear clothing such as sweatpants, flip flops, logos, etc. Is that to keep from being a target of crime, or because Europeans treat people differently if they are tourists or wearing different clothes than they usually wear? Maybe the letter that the OP's son got could have been something more in line with giving info about the culture, dress, language, and other customs of the country rather than "How not to be American" which gives the impression that being himself is not ok. Out of curiosity, what would be on a 'what not to wear' list for foreigners visiting the US?
I'm in Toronto and we're currently hosting the Pan Am Games. Walking down the street at lunch (with this thread in mind) I was wondering if I would ever be able to pick out someone who was visiting vs someone who lives here. (51% of our population were born outside of Canada and, for 45%, English is their second language).
So, I couldn't guess what behaviours or clothing people visiting here would be warned away from. Everyone (and no one) stands out here.
Number one on that list should be the black socks with sandals I see in NYC all the time.
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calgal08
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Jun 27, 2014 15:43:46 GMT
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Post by calgal08 on Jul 13, 2015 20:44:11 GMT
I think there's stereotypical tourists from every country. When I took dh back to my home town in England I admit I told him not to be a loud obnoxious American. He naturally has a loud voice, the kind of tone people can't help but take notice of. I also told him my little town is not like any American town he's been to. Don't go to a restaurant and make specific requests for certain foods on the side/hold other items from your order - it won't happen, you'll come across as a high maintenance PITA. Then again, I can often spot a British tourist in CA from a mile away. I can tell by the clothing (the new trainers that many British buy before they go on holiday ), they way they are in stores, etc. It is what it is. I don't think it's a bad thing to be aware of how you come across to other people. It's about respecting the country you visit.
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Post by sues on Jul 13, 2015 21:15:54 GMT
My husband used to go to China on business a couple of times a year. The first couple of times, he was cautioned about stopping for random kids or women on the street-never to give money to beggars because it turns you into a target and you'd get swarmed everywhere you went. He said he got approached often and usually heard the words 'rich American' along with the request for money. He learned to make sure his shirts were pulled well over his tattoos because some people were frightened by them, and some people were intrigued. He was told people thought he was a gangster. He had people constantly touching him, commenting on his hair (blonde) his height (average here) or the fact that his forearms were hairy. LOL He said it was the oddest sensation to stand out that much. No one was particularly shy about approaching him or asking him questions. The Chinese people were so good to him though- he just loved travelling there. They were gracious and accommodating; he saw and did so much when he wasn't working. They tried very hard to anticipate his needs and preferences. They were always asking him about western everything, and offering to find him good western food. He always told them "I can eat western food anytime. Take me where you like to eat." They were always shocked by that. My SIL and her SO travel internationally a lot. They are very obnoxious and probably fit more stereotypes than not- but they would never believe it. They're too busy telling everyone else why they aren't doing it right. People don't even ride the buses the right way in their opinion -because they're such 'stupid tourists'. They look down their noses at every vacation we ever take and try to educate us on traveling where and how they prefer to travel. Argh. But my favorite- SIL likes to mimic the accent of the English speaking countries they visit, so they blend in. She'd rather die than be taken for a tourist. If the bad accent didn't give her away, everything else about them would. It's like that Youtube video of the woman who puts on makeup and makes every mistake in the book (intentionally) to make a point. Except they are every 'what not to wear/do/say' as a tourist. Anywhere, any country, any time.
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Post by Zee on Jul 13, 2015 21:30:08 GMT
Do you know how many people lacking basic sanitation suffer and die from totally preventable diseases such as cholera? There are many more, of course. You're used to sanitation and plumbing too. You like the idea of heading off to India drinking local water and shitting in a hole? Have at it. The best invention mankind ever made for civilization was modern water treatment and sanitation. That's really not debatable. Actually, we might be too clean: Scientific American: It might be bad to be too clean Go back250 years to a crowded city without sanitation and tell me how healthy everyone was. Typhoid, anyone?
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Post by Zee on Jul 13, 2015 21:32:40 GMT
I've both seen and heard of them, thanks. You let me know how they're more hygienic when someone sprays a load of diarrhea all over the floor and some elderly comes in and loses her balance trying to squat over a hole and lands in someone else's filth, which you can't even put a layer of toilet paper over (like you can a toilet seat). Sorry ladies, not backing down on this one. No way, no how. What country/countries have you experienced that in? I have travelled in several Middle Eastern countries where 'hole in the ground' toilets are the norm, and haven't come across problems such as you describe. Hotels in the main cities had western-style toilets of course, but out in the rural areas there were only hole-in-the-ground types; they were always tiled, though in poorer areas the tiles were sometimes cracked or broken - but they were always clean. I think that many people who are used to that sort of toilet, and think it very strange indeed to be faced with a western toilet where you are apparently expected to sit on the same seat that other people have sat on. Not me personally. I have a SIL who travels all over Europe all of the time (she lives there) so I've seen the pictures, thanks. And I have a friend who lives in China, nuff said. Doesn't mean I wouldn't want to visit those places, but it seems really fucking backwards to consider Americans "spoiled" because we'd prefer a toilet to a hole.
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Post by Zee on Jul 13, 2015 21:37:07 GMT
AND btw when DH and I last traveled overseas we were asked if we were Canadian, because they couldn't tell for sure by our accents and apparently many Canadians get very offended over being mistaken for Americans so the questioners tried to err on the side of caution. I laughed so hard at that.
DH and I aren't overweight or loud but I'll totally own the yoga pants and flip flops while there is going to be a lot of walking involved! No shits given! (Especially not in a hole in the floor!)
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pyccku
Pearl Clutcher
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Jun 27, 2014 23:12:07 GMT
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Post by pyccku on Jul 13, 2015 23:04:02 GMT
Funny thing...we love our toilets, but it seems that squatting is a better position. So now you can buy a squatty potty to allow you to use a regular toilet in squatting position. Go figure.
The Turkish toilets I've seen have always been clean. They DO flush - and the flushing removes poop just as well as flushing a regular toilet after someone uses it. The biggest issue I've seen is people not knowing where to stand when flushing and getting splashed when the water comes out.
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Dalai Mama
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Jun 26, 2014 0:31:31 GMT
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Post by Dalai Mama on Jul 13, 2015 23:07:51 GMT
AND btw when DH and I last traveled overseas we were asked if we were Canadian, because they couldn't tell for sure by our accents and apparently many Canadians get very offended over being mistaken for Americans so the questioners tried to err on the side of caution. I laughed so hard at that. DH and I aren't overweight or loud but I'll totally own the yoga pants and flip flops while there is going to be a lot of walking involved! No shits given! (Especially not in a hole in the floor!) I don't know about offense, but the last time I was mistaken for American overseas, I was treated like shit. I'm pretty quick to correct, now.
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Post by Zee on Jul 13, 2015 23:11:21 GMT
AND btw when DH and I last traveled overseas we were asked if we were Canadian, because they couldn't tell for sure by our accents and apparently many Canadians get very offended over being mistaken for Americans so the questioners tried to err on the side of caution. I laughed so hard at that. DH and I aren't overweight or loud but I'll totally own the yoga pants and flip flops while there is going to be a lot of walking involved! No shits given! (Especially not in a hole in the floor!) I don't know about offense, but the last time I was mistaken for American overseas, I was treated like shit. I'm pretty quick to correct, now. That's too bad you were treated that way. I was in Scotland and Ireland, so maybe that makes a difference, but we were treated very well and asked many questions about America. DH has been too many more places than I have because he travels for work, but I can't say he ever recalls being treated poorly. Maybe because we aren't loud and offensive, and try to be respectful? Which everyone should do.
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Post by Zee on Jul 13, 2015 23:14:14 GMT
Also I should add that once the bartenders learned w were American and were good tippers, I never had to wait in line for a drink again!
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Dalai Mama
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Post by Dalai Mama on Jul 13, 2015 23:19:04 GMT
I don't know about offense, but the last time I was mistaken for American overseas, I was treated like shit. I'm pretty quick to correct, now. That's too bad you were treated that way. I was in Scotland and Ireland, so maybe that makes a difference, but we were treated very well and asked many questions about America. DH has been too many more places than I have because he travels for work, but I can't say he ever recalls being treated poorly. Maybe because we aren't loud and offensive, and try to be respectful? Which everyone should do. I was in Cambridge, at the railway station. I was neither loud nor disrespectful, I just had an accent that was mistaken for American. After he noticed my maple leaf, he apologized profusely and told me that he had thought I was American, as if that were an excuse.
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YooHoot
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Post by YooHoot on Jul 13, 2015 23:20:01 GMT
Also I should add that once the bartenders learned w were American and were good tippers, I never had to wait in line for a drink again! Because 20% on a tab overseas is unheard of. 1-2 euro handed to the waitress is all that's necessary. And remember to hand it to her...leaving on the table is considered tacky by some.
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valincal
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Southern Alberta
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Jun 27, 2014 2:21:22 GMT
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Post by valincal on Jul 13, 2015 23:21:50 GMT
My son did a semester in the south of France last year and all of the exchange students-Canadians, Americans, Brits, etc.-were required at the very beginning to attend a class detailing local customs and expectations of behavior and the like.
I'm not offended if I'm mistaken for an American. I will say I'm Canadian. For some reason Canadians are often painted as defensive if we set someone straight on our nationality.
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Post by Zee on Jul 13, 2015 23:30:16 GMT
That's too bad you were treated that way. I was in Scotland and Ireland, so maybe that makes a difference, but we were treated very well and asked many questions about America. DH has been too many more places than I have because he travels for work, but I can't say he ever recalls being treated poorly. Maybe because we aren't loud and offensive, and try to be respectful? Which everyone should do. I was in Cambridge, at the railway station. I was neither loud nor disrespectful, I just had an accent that was mistaken for American. After he noticed my maple leaf, he apologized profusely and told me that he had thought I was American, as if that were an excuse. I didn't mean to imply that you were loud or disrespectful! Sorry if you took it that way. I was just thinking perhaps that was why we didn't run into any negativity.
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eleezybeth
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Jun 28, 2014 20:42:01 GMT
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Post by eleezybeth on Jul 13, 2015 23:32:46 GMT
I lived in Europe for 8 years. You can spot an American a mile away. The way they walk in a crowd, their clothes, the baseball hat on their head, the way they are when with a group. Why do I know? Because the military drills it in your head NOT to act like that. You are considered a very easy target. I lived in Germany on 9/11. Being told you are a target because of your behavior is something you are going to be aware of. It was scary, and the knowledge of those obviously American behaviors stuck. Heck, I act like a German tourist when I'm in America simply to avoid the same stereotypes here (but without the pushing and the ability to stand in a queue ) Every country has stereotypes both in the US and abroad. Ask any German if they can spot a Turk in the crowd. Ask any Russian if they can spot a German. We also play the game of "what team do they play for" and you'd be surprised at how well you can do if you travel a lot. My extended family are some of the ugliest American tourists. Complete with the "Why do I need Euros?" question... I strongly believe that you must learn please, thank you and excuse me in the language of the country - at a minimum. Basic manners just don't stop because you can't speak the language. Try. When you refuse you are the egotistical, the world revolves around me American that they expect you to be. My favorite stereotype happened in Dublin on Thanksgiving one year. The Hard Rock Cafe had a big sign that said "Hey Americans, we have your turkey. Come on in." We laughed so hard and went and ate turkey.
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Post by Zee on Jul 13, 2015 23:35:02 GMT
Also I should add that once the bartenders learned w were American and were good tippers, I never had to wait in line for a drink again! Because 20% on a tab overseas is unheard of. 1-2 euro handed to the waitress is all that's necessary. And remember to hand it to her...leaving on the table is considered tacky by some. Yes and a euro every time we got another round was also out of the norm. It was well worth it to bypass that line once the bar filled up. All I had to do was walk towards the bar and he immediately got our beers ready despite the line of customers. Try that in America, not happening He was fun to chat with before it got busy, he had lots of questions about where to live in America and would it be possible to make a living in the US as a bartender and does everyone tip, what is the weather like year round, etc. Our pony trap driver had similar questions.
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AmeliaBloomer
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Jun 26, 2014 5:01:45 GMT
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Jul 13, 2015 23:45:16 GMT
I think the self depreciation is a topic you need to discuss with your dd. Just because someone gives advice or instruction does not mean she has to take it to that level. It has nothing to do with how it is presented but everything to do with your dd's perception of herself. She should be able to separate how others view her from how she views herself and be able to be realistic about changes in her behavior without cutting herself down or apologizing for being herself. Perhaps. Perhaps not. Doesn't sound very much like my daughter. And she was definitely not the only one in her program who adopted the self-deprecating thing; I noticed it in other students' blogs and stories. I think the self-deprecating thing is more a symptom of a cultural trend - a schtick some have adopted - as Country Ham described on Page 1, and less a generalized problem that my daughter has with identity or image. She has anecdotes about specific things that were said to her or her friends in various countries...assumptions that were made. As I said in another post, I should not have written her figurative "apologized my way through Europe" without explaining further. They didn't literally apologize, but they probably just chose feeling apologetic as opposed to feeling defensive. And now I've gone over the Meta Brink. More bathroom stories, please.
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Post by bc2ca on Jul 14, 2015 0:07:53 GMT
I just mentioned this in another thread: my son just got written tips about how to not-act-American during his upcoming semester in Germany. My daughter got a similar letter before studying in Italy. I have absolutely no objection to advice about how to assimilate and - especially - be respectful of existing culture, but it makes me wonder if young people coming to the US get explicit advice about how NOT to act Japanese/German/Italian/British/French/ Brazilian - or if the same cultural advice is framed differently.I have no doubt students coming to the US are given exactly the same sort of advice as your kids, only worded "how not to act Japanese, etc.". This just turned up in my Yahoo feed: What foreign governments tell their US bound citizens.
It includes tidbits like staying to the right on escalators, no line cutting, no smoking while walking, no spitting on the sidewalks, nudity at nude beaches only, pay your parking tickets, etc. Back in my working days I looked after employees posted overseas and cultural training was absolutely part of a successful transition.
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Sarah*H
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Jun 25, 2014 20:07:06 GMT
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Post by Sarah*H on Jul 14, 2015 0:15:27 GMT
In a weird twist, I overheard someone walking in the opposite direction on the Pat Tillman bridge at Hoover Dam talking about this thread this afternoon! Which refupea was also at Hoover Dam today??!!??
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