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Post by sean&marysmommy on Jul 16, 2015 13:47:52 GMT
Please know that I am going to do my own research on this, but I'm unsure of where to start. I've always been pro-vaccine so this is honestly not something I've researched or even thought much about.
I found out yesterday at a playdate that one of my daughter's favorite playmates is non-vaxxed. Upon learning this, another mother piped up and said that her daughter is on a delayed vax schedule, but they would absolutely not be getting her the MMR vaccine.
As I said, I know I need to do some research and will start with talking to my pediatrician, as we have an appointment next week, but the Peas are a wealth of info so I wanted to bring it up here as well. Do you let your kids play with kids who are non-vaxxed? What about those who skip certain vaccines? I kind of thought that that I didn't have to worry about these things because we do vax so my kids should be fine. But when I mentioned it to DH, he said he's heard that our kids, esp. our 18-month-old, wouldn't necessarily be protected depending on what shots/boosters they've had.
Any resources you all want to share would be helpful. My friend (the non-vaxxer) suggest Dr. Sears' Vaccine Book, but doesn't he rec non-vaxxing or at least a delayed schedule? Not sure how helpful I would find that, if so.
(I hate to post and run, but I will be offline for a few hours...we have another playdate today. With someone who I know for sure is vaccinated! lol)
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Post by melanell on Jul 16, 2015 13:52:02 GMT
In many situations, I would never know because I don't make a point to ask parents if their children are vaccinated.
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gsquaredmom
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Post by gsquaredmom on Jul 16, 2015 13:55:43 GMT
Your pediatrician can help you.
But me? i am pretty sure the only way to know for sure if your kids' own vaccines are effective is through blood tests. No vaccine is 100 percent effective in the population, so there is a slim chance the vaccinated ones are not fully protected. That's partly why herd immunity is important. We do not do blood tests on everyone.
And your husband is right about the youngest. A full series is usually needed and that takes several years. Even the older one may not have had the full series.
I would listen to my pediatrician but I would be inclined to restrict knowingly exposing my kids to unvaccinated kids if I could.
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Post by myshelly on Jul 16, 2015 14:04:01 GMT
I don't even understand.
If your kids have had the vaccine don't you believe they are protected? Isn't that why you gave them the vaccine in the first place?
They're going to be going to school with unvaxxed kids and you will have no idea who is vaxxed or not.
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Post by Linda on Jul 16, 2015 14:05:23 GMT
If my children (or someone else they are regularly around) is immuno-suppressed or otherwise at higher risk of complications from one of diseases covered by vaccines, then I would be MUCH more cautious
However, since that isn't the case for my family - it's not something I really stress about. Generally speaking, I don't know the vaccine status of other people - I can assume that if they are attending school or daycare in my area, they are probably up to date on shots but even there, exemptions exist.
An 18m old hasn't yet had the full range of vaccines so would be more likely to catch something than an older child - but unvaxed kids only share diseases that they've caught - if they don't catch _____ then they can't share it with your kids. Obviously if something is going around, be more cautious.
FWIW
My oldest was vaxxed on schedule (but there were less shots back then). My middle was on schedule but we skipped a couple (rotovirus and now the hpv one because they were too new for our comfort level and chicken pox because she had it naturally). My youngest is NOW up to date on shots (since starting school) but we played catchup that last summer before K because her doctor was an idiot and she hadn't had any shots since the first round as a newborn. She ended up missing some because they weren't needed anymore due to her age.
One thing to consider is herd immunity - the higher percentage of a population that is vaccinated, the more protected the population as a whole is against that disease because less people are available to host it and pass it along - even when some aren't vaxed (either by choice or because they have medical reasons not to) and even though the vax doesn't work on all. And of course the flip side to that is that if a disease does go through a community, while the non-vaxxed part of the population is most likely to get it, the more people with the disease, the more likely that people who are vaxed will ALSO get it if the vaccine was only partially effective (which does happen). I've had mumps (as an adult) and whooping cough (as a child) and I'm fully vaxed against both
good luck with your discernment.
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Post by myboysnme on Jul 16, 2015 14:10:01 GMT
The purpose of having my kids vaccinated is so they have immunity or decreased susceptibility to the diseases they are vaccinated for.
I don't even understand this question. It seems like something I would never worry about in a million years.
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Post by sean&marysmommy on Jul 16, 2015 14:35:11 GMT
For those who don't understand why I'm asking- I thought it was a non-issue as well, since we vax. But what my DH thinks younger children and babies aren't necessarily protected because they might've only had one dose of a vaccine, or not had that vaccine at all yet because they aren't old enough. Maybe I'm not explaining that well?
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LeaP
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Post by LeaP on Jul 16, 2015 14:48:31 GMT
One of the boys who got whooping cough at my daughter's middle school was fully vaccinated. The vaccine didn't take and he was super sick for three weeks. My two, both fully vaccinated, were exposed to whooping cough, chicken pox and swine flu and did not get sick. In your shoes, I would keep the 18 month away just in case and it would be difficult for me to hide the irritation at he non-vaxxing parent.
We lived in Los Angeles when this happened, some of the big pockets of anti-vaxxers were at schools just down the street from ours. I'm wondering how crazy people are going to get when the new law kicks in.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2015 14:49:32 GMT
For those who don't understand why I'm asking- I thought it was a non-issue as well, since we vax. But what my DH thinks younger children and babies aren't necessarily protected because they might've only had one dose of a vaccine, or not had that vaccine at all yet because they aren't old enough. Maybe I'm not explaining that well? I understand why you are asking and I understand the concern for your 18 month old. I would worry about the 18 month old because he/she hasn't had the full round of immunizations. When my youngest was born, whooping cough was going around. My dd's pediatrician told me and dh to go and get a pertussis vax ASAP, and we did because we knew the baby would not be immune if we caught it and she could easily get it from us. As for how to handle playdates with the non vaxxed kids? IDK. I would be hesitant to continue them. And yes, I get that your kids are going to school with non vaxxed - you don't know who these kids are. Frankly, just being out at stores and parks, etc. could put your 18 month old at risk. In this case though, you do know they aren't Vaxxed. I'm rambling now, but yes, I get your hesitation.
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Post by originalvanillabean on Jul 16, 2015 14:53:42 GMT
You can't control everything in the environment we live in, but I understand why you are concerned.
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Post by shevy on Jul 16, 2015 14:58:25 GMT
Some people never develop the immunity to the disease from the vaccine. My Mom is one who doesn't for several disease for some reason. You can ask your doctor to run a titer for the diseases and see if the immunity is present in the bloodstream.
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Post by snugglebutter on Jul 16, 2015 15:00:01 GMT
It's not something I worry about. Sure, you can control who your kid sees in a playdate. You cannot control who your child is around in countless other group settings. Do you never let your child touch doorknobs, railings, grocery carts, playground equipment etc? Are you asking every adult in contact with your child about their vaccine booster status?
There's just a lot more to it than who you allow to playdates.
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anniebygaslight
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Post by anniebygaslight on Jul 16, 2015 15:03:44 GMT
You can't prevent your child being coughed and sneezed upon by an unvaccinated child in a shop orr on public transport, so I would guess that it is a waste of time avoiding unvaccinated children on play dates etc.
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Post by moveablefeast on Jul 16, 2015 15:13:14 GMT
Our state allows vaccine exemptions and as a result we can be confident that we attend school with unvaccinated children at one time or another.
We believe strongly in vaccination and I know that herd immunity only works if a very high percentage of people are vaccinated.
It is not an immediate concern and I wouldn't ban unvaccinated playmates, but obviously we consider vaccinating to be the preferable course for all children who can medically receive vaccines.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2015 15:18:47 GMT
It's not something I'm concerned about. If you're worried about your 18 month old.. do you let her play with your older children who may not be fully immune yet? Go out in public? I sort of don't get this whole thing.
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Post by hop2 on Jul 16, 2015 16:03:04 GMT
I've never asked anyone if their kids are vaccinated so it's never been a worry for me. That's why mine are vaccinated.
One if my sons best friend is not vaccinated because it is against their religion. He played there often as a child. Never bothered me. His mother is very quick to cancel or reschedule plans at the slightest sniffle, so it was never an issue. In fact I found out they weren't vaccinated when she called me to cancel when she found out her son had played with a child that had chicken pox and she was waiting to see if her son would get it. So she kept him home for several days to wait for symptoms. Never happened.
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Dalai Mama
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Post by Dalai Mama on Jul 16, 2015 16:10:01 GMT
I don't even understand. If your kids have had the vaccine don't you believe they are protected? Isn't that why you gave them the vaccine in the first place? They're going to be going to school with unvaxxed kids and you will have no idea who is vaxxed or not. No, I wouldn't believe that they are protected. Because no vaccine is 100% effective and having an unvaccinated child in any given population increases the chances of your vaccinated child becoming infected.
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pudgygroundhog
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Post by pudgygroundhog on Jul 16, 2015 16:12:32 GMT
One of the boys who got whooping cough at my daughter's middle school was fully vaccinated. The vaccine didn't take and he was super sick for three weeks. My two, both fully vaccinated, were exposed to whooping cough, chicken pox and swine flu and did not get sick. In your shoes, I would keep the 18 month away just in case and it would be difficult for me to hide the irritation at he non-vaxxing parent. We lived in Los Angeles when this happened, some of the big pockets of anti-vaxxers were at schools just down the street from ours. I'm wondering how crazy people are going to get when the new law kicks in. I also know healthy, vaccinated kids that got whooping cough. No vaccination is 100%, but overall I personally wouldn't worry about it unless someone in our family was susceptible (a baby/kid without full vaccinations, compromised immune system, etc). There are big pockets of unvaccinated kids here and I don't worry about my daughter coming in contact with them. However, if there was a measles outbreak, I would not send her on a playdate with unvaccinated kids (I know some kids that aren't). I know coming in contact with unvaccinated people is unavoidable, but I wouldn't deliberately potentially expose her. NY still has exemptions (hope they close that loophole), but if there is an outbreak, unvaccinated kids are not allowed to come to school for a certain length of time.
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Post by kandie on Jul 16, 2015 16:12:55 GMT
as far as I know, you have approx 90% of the antibodies with in two weeks of the first in the series of a vaccine.
I would feel comfortable with my toddler playing with a non vaccinated child
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Post by darkangel090260 on Jul 16, 2015 16:38:15 GMT
I just open my mouth and ask if the children are up to date on there shots. If they are not then we just tell the parent to get back to us when they are. children under 2 does not have there full shots.
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Post by sean&marysmommy on Jul 16, 2015 19:05:58 GMT
Thanks for the responses; what I like about this group is I know I will get a wide range of opinions. I'm on a FB group for local moms, but I didn't want to ask there because it is an overwhelmingly anti-vax group and I was afraid that I'd only get biased (and angry) responses.
I know that my kids are exposed to all sorts of things everywhere we go, and I really don't stress out about it. I never even wondered about other children's vax status until it came up yesterday. Ironically, it came up because I mentioned that my daughter has a well check-up (and a shot) next week, and the non-vax mom was curious which shot it was, as she wants to steer clear of vaccinated kids who had certain shots because of what she calls "shedding." Apparently she's afraid my daughter's shot could cause her daughter to get sick because of shedding? (Like I said, I need to research all of this; I fully admit that I am clueless.)
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Post by meridon on Jul 16, 2015 19:15:41 GMT
If parents are anti-vaxxers, then we probably don't have a lot in common and I don' think I'd be pursuing friendships for my kids with them anyway. People who knowingly put their kids' "needs" before others and refuse immunizations for their special snowflake really piss me off. I get that some children can't be vaxxed beacuse of a suppressed immune system. In fact, we have a good family friend whose daughter just spent months in the hospital for leukemia treatment at age 2, so I know for a fact she hasn't/can't get all her shots. But the people who think that they need to avoid the MMR, for example, because Jenny McCarthy said so or because one crackpot doctor (whose study has been thoroughly debunked) said so are just beyond my comprehension.
Rant over....I guess I would just really have to consider whether I wanted to be friends with people who ignore mainstream science. And I would be concerned for your younger DD who has not had the full course of shots yet because of her age.
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Post by ptamom on Jul 16, 2015 19:33:12 GMT
One of the boys who got whooping cough at my daughter's middle school was fully vaccinated. The vaccine didn't take and he was super sick for three weeks. My two, both fully vaccinated, were exposed to whooping cough, chicken pox and swine flu and did not get sick. In your shoes, I would keep the 18 month away just in case and it would be difficult for me to hide the irritation at he non-vaxxing parent. We lived in Los Angeles when this happened, some of the big pockets of anti-vaxxers were at schools just down the street from ours. I'm wondering how crazy people are going to get when the new law kicks in. There's already a petition drive to overturn it. The crazy is well underway.
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Post by ptamom on Jul 16, 2015 19:45:49 GMT
To answer the OP, I don't know how I'd feel about it.
My kids are both in their mid to late teens, but back when we were in the thick of playgroups, it would not have occurred to me that there were people who would purposely leave their kids vulnerable. Of course there were many fewer abstainers (as well as fewer shots), but looking back, I'm sure I knew some who did not vaccinate.
My DD was in a playgroup that consisted mainly of foreign families, in the U.S. on work visas. The families were from Russia, the Netherlands, Brazil, Croatia, India. Really interesting group. But I have no idea if they kept the same vaccine schedules as the U.S. Especially since our particular pediatrician was a bit on the aggressive side, schedule wise. Always gave the shot at the opening of the interval window for each particular shot.
For what it's worth, my kids never picked up more than the sniffles from play dates. But, attend a birthday party Chuck E Cheese, and a few days later they'd come down with something that would keep them in bed for days. Guaranteed. Ugh.
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pridemom
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Post by pridemom on Jul 16, 2015 19:50:08 GMT
We chose a delayed vac schedule. That said, we have to careful since 15yo dd and I both take medication to suppress our immune systems. When flu was at its highest levels last year, she and I stayed home from church to try to avoid exposure. We were both vaxed, but we were advised to be cautious.
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Post by finally~a~mama on Jul 16, 2015 20:02:26 GMT
Personally, I don't worry about it. My DDs were both vaccinated on a slightly delayed schedule. So I sort of understand both sides of the vaccine issue. We have no way on knowing when we go out in public who is or isn't vaccinated. As for your DH's concerns, what are you going to do keep your toddler away from all children until they are fully vaccinated with the last round of shots at age 4-6? That's not realistic. Even kids that are being vaccinated on the recommended schedule are going to have periods of time before they get all their shots where they could acquire & spread a disease.
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Post by lucyg on Jul 16, 2015 20:14:22 GMT
If parents are anti-vaxxers, then we probably don't have a lot in common and I don' think I'd be pursuing friendships for my kids with them anyway. People who knowingly put their kids' "needs" before others and refuse immunizations for their special snowflake really piss me off. I get that some children can't be vaxxed beacuse of a suppressed immune system. In fact, we have a good family friend whose daughter just spent months in the hospital for leukemia treatment at age 2, so I know for a fact she hasn't/can't get all her shots. But the people who think that they need to avoid the MMR, for example, because Jenny McCarthy said so or because one crackpot doctor (whose study has been thoroughly debunked) said so are just beyond my comprehension. Rant over....I guess I would just really have to consider whether I wanted to be friends with people who ignore mainstream science. And I would be concerned for your younger DD who has not had the full course of shots yet because of her age. This is my feeling as well. I've never asked and wouldn't necessarily know who's vaccinated and who isn't. But if I did become aware someone was deliberately not vaccinating their kids (for non medically required reasons), I doubt we'd have much else in common and I wouldn't want to hang out with them, anyway. Okay, maybe we would have things in common, but I'd be so pissed off, I wouldn't care. I looked up the vaccination rates in my town, and fortunately we have a high vax rate. Which surprised me, as close to Berkeley and Marin county as we are.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2015 20:30:37 GMT
For those who don't understand why I'm asking- I thought it was a non-issue as well, since we vax. But what my DH thinks younger children and babies aren't necessarily protected because they might've only had one dose of a vaccine, or not had that vaccine at all yet because they aren't old enough. Maybe I'm not explaining that well? The younger children are protected from the minute they receive the vaccine. What a lot of people don't seem to understand and it sounds as if your husband is one of them, is that SOME vaccines are not life long protection so after a few years they need a booster. Tetanus is one that comes to mind. Tetanus has a lifespan of 10 years then the immunity " memory"weakens so you need another booster to remind the immune system to start working again. MMR is another that needs boosters. The lifespan is shorter in an MMR For the babies that are too young to have a vaccine such as the MMR,they carry protection by the immunity their mothers pass on to them when they are born. If your children are up to date with their vaccines then there is no reason to keep them away from unvaccinated children because your children are already protected.
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Post by jonda1974 on Jul 16, 2015 20:52:00 GMT
In many situations, I would never know because I don't make a point to ask parents if their children are vaccinated. This is me as well. I never made it a point to ask when I babysat as a teen. I don't remember the topic of conversation every coming up. I didn't even have my full round of vaccinations as a child, I didn't get the MMR until I went to college. It's just something we never thought about or discussed from what I remember.
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Post by lucyg on Jul 16, 2015 21:03:19 GMT
For those who don't understand why I'm asking- I thought it was a non-issue as well, since we vax. But what my DH thinks younger children and babies aren't necessarily protected because they might've only had one dose of a vaccine, or not had that vaccine at all yet because they aren't old enough. Maybe I'm not explaining that well? The younger children are protected from the minute they receive the vaccine. What a lot of people don't seem to understand and it sounds as if your husband is one of them, is that SOME vaccines are not life long protection so after a few years they need a booster. Tetanus is one that comes to mind. Tetanus has a lifespan of 10 years then the immunity " memory"weakens so you need another booster to remind the immune system to start working again. MMR is another that needs boosters. The lifespan is shorter in an MMR For the babies that are too young to have a vaccine such as the MMR,they carry protection by the immunity their mothers pass on to them when they are born. If your children are up to date with their vaccines then there is no reason to keep them away from unvaccinated children because your children are already protected. This is not entirely correct information, not from my reading, anyway. Some vaccinations are given as a series and full protection is attained by completion of the entire series. Some vaccinations don't kick in right away and there's a waiting period for immunity. And some people are still not fully protected even though they've been vaccinated. Herd immunity is a benefit to them and exposure to non-vaccinated children (if they carry the disease) could be a danger to them. Younger babies clearly do not carry full immunity from birth or breastfeeding, because they are always among the first victims in any epidemic. Of course, if you are a health professional, I will bow to your greater knowledge.
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