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Post by Skellinton on Aug 5, 2015 1:49:31 GMT
You don't think he could do some damage in the hall or nurses station or outside? You don't think he might be a flight risk if they took him outside?
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Post by Merge on Aug 5, 2015 2:36:37 GMT
How do you know the restraint didn't happen after CPI first steps had already been followed? Because you wouldn't allow an agitated child out of a restraint. And if you need be, you put them back in. I'm one of the first (and sometimes the first) called on situations like above. I had a child throw a bench at me in May. I've had desks thrown at me, and chairs are almost always a given because they're easy to pick up. In middle schools, I often get text books thrown at me. For me, the proper training prevents situations like they found themselves in. Even the studies cited by the CPI training organization say that their techniques reduce the need for physical restraint by 30%. That's a good reduction, but hardly a cure-all. I don't think you can assume that the appropriate techniques to de-escalate the situation were not followed first. For myself, once a student reaches the level where he is kicking me, spitting in my face, etc. I would like there to be another choice for keeping everyone safe. I can totally see why a teacher would let go of a student she is restraining and request handcuffs or some other kind of restraint. Regardless of your training, when someone hurts you, the instinct to let go of them (the instinct for self-preservation) is pretty strong.
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AnotherPea
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by AnotherPea on Aug 5, 2015 2:40:41 GMT
Plus, it can be exhausting holding a child for an extended amount of time.
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suzastampin
Pearl Clutcher
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Jun 28, 2014 14:32:59 GMT
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Post by suzastampin on Aug 5, 2015 2:58:40 GMT
Now, I have to ask, if he were your little boy, would you feel the same?
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Dani-Mani
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Jun 28, 2014 17:36:35 GMT
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Post by Dani-Mani on Aug 5, 2015 3:02:17 GMT
Because you wouldn't allow an agitated child out of a restraint. And if you need be, you put them back in. I'm one of the first (and sometimes the first) called on situations like above. I had a child throw a bench at me in May. I've had desks thrown at me, and chairs are almost always a given because they're easy to pick up. In middle schools, I often get text books thrown at me. For me, the proper training prevents situations like they found themselves in. Even the studies cited by the CPI training organization say that their techniques reduce the need for physical restraint by 30%. That's a good reduction, but hardly a cure-all. I don't think you can assume that the appropriate techniques to de-escalate the situation were not followed first. For myself, once a student reaches the level where he is kicking me, spitting in my face, etc. I would like there to be another choice for keeping everyone safe. I can totally see why a teacher would let go of a student she is restraining and request handcuffs or some other kind of restraint. Regardless of your training, when someone hurts you, the instinct to let go of them (the instinct for self-preservation) is pretty strong. Did you even read my posts? I never said I wasn't okay with restraints. I said I want okay with the handcuffs and I'm not. i'm often front line when it comes to a crisis, so obviously my thinking is different.
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Post by Merge on Aug 5, 2015 3:17:16 GMT
Even the studies cited by the CPI training organization say that their techniques reduce the need for physical restraint by 30%. That's a good reduction, but hardly a cure-all. I don't think you can assume that the appropriate techniques to de-escalate the situation were not followed first. For myself, once a student reaches the level where he is kicking me, spitting in my face, etc. I would like there to be another choice for keeping everyone safe. I can totally see why a teacher would let go of a student she is restraining and request handcuffs or some other kind of restraint. Regardless of your training, when someone hurts you, the instinct to let go of them (the instinct for self-preservation) is pretty strong. Did you even read my posts? I never said I wasn't okay with restraints. I said I want okay with the handcuffs and I'm not. i'm often front line when it comes to a crisis, so obviously my thinking is different. I did read your posts. I questioned your assumption that the school wasn't using CPI because it had "gotten to that point," and the statement that a properly trained person wouldn't have let an agitated child out of a restraint (by which I think you meant a basket hold or similar physical restraint). My front line experience has clearly been different than yours.
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Post by Merge on Aug 5, 2015 3:30:34 GMT
Now, I have to ask, if he were your little boy, would you feel the same? I don't know. With all due respect, I think maybe your perception is clouded by emotion, and that's understandable. As a teacher I have to think of all the kids in my care, not just one. Safety is paramount. I'm also, frankly, not willing to be beaten up by a kid. If it were my child who needed to be restrained, I like to think I'd be objective about it, but who knows? I totally get that you look at that video and see your precious boy.
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Post by iteach3rdgrade on Aug 5, 2015 5:15:24 GMT
I totally agree with Mergeleft. The general public has no idea what teachers are dealing with each day. No idea. As a teacher and parent it never ceases to amaze me what occurs in classrooms. What surprises me even more is how the other students in the room generally do not report these extreme behaviors to their parents. There have been times I have prayed for kids to go home and tell their parents in hopes of an uproar to get a student the needed help. So true!
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anniebygaslight
Drama Llama
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Jun 28, 2014 14:08:19 GMT
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Post by anniebygaslight on Aug 5, 2015 6:11:09 GMT
Appalling, and very poor judgement. I am struck by the contrast between this unnecessary level of restraint, and the gentle and reasonable manner he uses when speaking to the child.
If it is 'in the book' he will get away with it, no doubt.
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Post by darkangel090260 on Aug 5, 2015 8:57:07 GMT
Now, I have to ask, if he were your little boy, would you feel the same? Yes I would feel the same way. My child would not be allowed back to school. He disturbed his classmates and possibly harmed someone ells. that mean he can not be have up to social standards. Since he can not behave in a school environment without causing problems he will not be in that environment. Until he has earned the right to be in a school environment again. I will not allow any of my children to be jerks or brats
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AnotherPea
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Post by AnotherPea on Aug 5, 2015 12:13:08 GMT
Now, I have to ask, if he were your little boy, would you feel the same? 100%.
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Post by pierkiss on Aug 5, 2015 12:39:06 GMT
I had been trained in restraint use within the public schools in FL. If it got to that point, I used a basket hold until my client calmed down. Physically taxing on me, yes, but safe. And there was a LONG and very detailed protocol involved on which clients I could use the basket hold on and what exact behaviors warranted it.
That footage is horrible. I do not know what is legal in that state, but I cannot imagine that it's ethical to handcuff someone with disabilities like that. I am dying to know what behaviors led up to him being handcuffed. If that kid was only wiggling in his seat or making sounds or doing anything that was not causing harm to himself, others, or property then I think that was a gross use of restraint and power in this situation. If the school is going to use restraints, everyone must have the proper training on when and how it is to be used. Even SRO officers.
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suzastampin
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Jun 28, 2014 14:32:59 GMT
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Post by suzastampin on Aug 5, 2015 12:56:46 GMT
Now, I have to ask, if he were your little boy, would you feel the same? Yes I would feel the same way. My child would not be allowed back to school. He disturbed his classmates and possibly harmed someone ells. that mean he can not be have up to social standards. Since he can not behave in a school environment without causing problems he will not be in that environment. Until he has earned the right to be in a school environment again. I will not allow any of my children to be jerks or brats And, this is why my son was in a special ed program. I didn't feel it was right to mainstream him and possibly have him disturb or hinder the education of the "normal" students in his class. Although, he did take high school computer courses with the regular kids as he was so proficient he showed others and competed in business days at local colleges. Absolutely there is emotion in my response as I expect there would be in most parents. I've seen too many news stories of disabled children locked in closets, hit, and ridiculed.
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suzastampin
Pearl Clutcher
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Jun 28, 2014 14:32:59 GMT
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Post by suzastampin on Aug 5, 2015 12:59:53 GMT
Plus, it can be exhausting holding a child for an extended amount of time. Yea, I know. Especially when it goes on for the whole time the power or cable is out.
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AnotherPea
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Post by AnotherPea on Aug 5, 2015 13:01:43 GMT
Ok, unless I totally misread, I'm not getting the multiple references to the child being disabled. He has ADHD. As does a large percentage of children at his school. He doesn't get a pass on violence or deserve special treatment when consequences are doled out.
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Dalai Mama
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Post by Dalai Mama on Aug 5, 2015 13:08:36 GMT
So what would you have the officer do? He clearly states that the boy was swinging at him. I suspect it was done as a matter of keeping everyone safe. If he didn't restrain the boy and the boy hurt anyone, he would have been in trouble for not taking action. (I'm not trying to start an argument here, I'm just wondering what you think is a viable alternative). I used to work as a special ed teacher for emotionally 'damaged' kids. It took me less than an hour to learn how to physically restrain an 8-year-old and I was 100 lbs soaking wet.
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Post by gailoh on Aug 5, 2015 13:14:48 GMT
What were they thinking ....those poor kids have enough to deal with now they will be scared of police....
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Post by Merge on Aug 5, 2015 13:16:32 GMT
Yes I would feel the same way. My child would not be allowed back to school. He disturbed his classmates and possibly harmed someone ells. that mean he can not be have up to social standards. Since he can not behave in a school environment without causing problems he will not be in that environment. Until he has earned the right to be in a school environment again. I will not allow any of my children to be jerks or brats And, this is why my son was in a special ed program. I didn't feel it was right to mainstream him and possibly have him disturb or hinder the education of the "normal" students in his class. Although, he did take high school computer courses with the regular kids as he was so proficient he showed others and competed in business days at local colleges. Absolutely there is emotion in my response as I expect there would be in most parents. I've seen too many news stories of disabled children locked in closets, hit, and ridiculed. And I would never support locking a child in a closet, hitting him or ridiculing him. Temporarily using physical restraints when appropriate and as a last resort, until the child can be calm again - I support that. As the music teacher at our school, all the kids attend my class, even those nowhere ready to be mainstreamed in core areas. And I'm glad they do. I enjoy working with special needs kids. I just worry for everyone's safety when an out-of-control child can't be restrained in a public school setting.
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Post by apeacalledliz on Aug 5, 2015 13:32:59 GMT
I think that there has to be a better way...20 children have DIED being restrained at school since 1992. While I don't think this particular child is in any danger I do think that it sets a precedent that allows for extreme mishandling and abuse.
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caro
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Post by caro on Aug 5, 2015 13:37:59 GMT
My BFF's 26 year old DD has a significant back injury which is ongoing because she has chosen to work with autistic teenagers and one teen hurt her. She continues on because she feels she is making a difference. I applaud her....I could not do what she does. I get the need for restraints being used and I was a special needs parent for 14 years. If restraints are used to keep a child safe, from himself and others, then use them. But I also assume they are being used as a last resort.
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Post by Merge on Aug 5, 2015 14:10:22 GMT
I think that there has to be a better way...20 children have DIED being restrained at school since 1992. While I don't think this particular child is in any danger I do think that it sets a precedent that allows for extreme mishandling and abuse. So here's an article that repeats the statistic you share: www.care2.com/causes/since-1992-20-children-have-died-as-a-result-of-being-restrained-at-schools.htmlIt's horrific, of course. A big part of the problem, as the article states, is that there are no federal guidelines around the use of restraints in public schools. In my opinion, it needs to be recognized that physical restraint methods like a basket hold are not always effective and still pose a risk of harm to the adult performing the restraint. (And I have to wonder, if a video of an upset, crying child being restrained in a basket hold by an adult at school were released, if there would probably be the same level of outrage from people who don't understand what they're seeing.) It needs to be recognized that sometimes other forms of restraint may be necessary, and safe guidelines for that need to be established. In the article I linked, they mention that students who died were bound with ropes and duct tape - obviously wholly inappropriate and criminal. But what isn't being mentioned is that public schools are overwhelmed with students with very severe needs, and that staff live in fear of either being injured, being held responsible for another student being injured, or ending up on the six o'clock news or YouTube while trying to prevent someone from being injured. I don't know what the answer is.
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loco coco
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Post by loco coco on Aug 5, 2015 14:10:57 GMT
I don't get all of the outrage. I think restraints are better than a large man trying to hold down a little boy, that has lawsuit written all over it. If this were my kid of course it would be hard to see but I would understand
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Post by shanni on Aug 5, 2015 14:42:30 GMT
I used to work in a Behavior Disorder special education classroom. I learned how to properly restrain kids. I had one particular student who was a master manipulator at age 8. He would calm down, and after a while of talking through it, I would release him from my grip. There were several times that he bolted after being released. One of the times, he made it to the street and we both came dangerously close to being hit by a car as I tried to catch him. One time he immediately started flipping desks. Another time he started throwing things at the other teacher. It got to the point that we had to evacuate the classroom and call for backup every time this child acted out, because we feared for everyone's safety. The police were even called once. This was a scrawny little 8 year old too, but when he got into a rage he could do serious damage. I would have had no problem using whatever restraints necessary to keep this child, the other children, and myself safe. I really think we would be seeing the same kind of outrage, if not worse, had the 200 pound officer put the kid in a physical hold.
Two of my good friends received concussions from a student at the elementary school this past year. The student punched one of them in the face, so the other went to restrain him while the first one went for help. He turned around and punched the other teacher so hard she blacked out. Both were out of school for the rest of the year and one is still on driving restrictions because of the recurring side effects of her concussion. Should teachers really have to put up with this?
I am betting there is a whole lot more to the story than we are hearing. The school is legally bound and can't tell their side. I agree that more training is needed in how to properly restrain and/or deal with out of control children, but teachers should NOT have to risk their health and safety just because the child is only 8. If the child is out of control, they need to do what they have to do to ensure the safety of EVERYONE. Sometimes that means restraints.
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Post by apeacalledliz on Aug 5, 2015 14:48:39 GMT
I think that there has to be a better way...20 children have DIED being restrained at school since 1992. While I don't think this particular child is in any danger I do think that it sets a precedent that allows for extreme mishandling and abuse. So here's an article that repeats the statistic you share: www.care2.com/causes/since-1992-20-children-have-died-as-a-result-of-being-restrained-at-schools.htmlIt's horrific, of course. A big part of the problem, as the article states, is that there are no federal guidelines around the use of restraints in public schools. In my opinion, it needs to be recognized that physical restraint methods like a basket hold are not always effective and still pose a risk of harm to the adult performing the restraint. (And I have to wonder, if a video of an upset, crying child being restrained in a basket hold by an adult at school were released, if there would probably be the same level of outrage from people who don't understand what they're seeing.) It needs to be recognized that sometimes other forms of restraint may be necessary, and safe guidelines for that need to be established. In the article I linked, they mention that students who died were bound with ropes and duct tape - obviously wholly inappropriate and criminal. But what isn't being mentioned is that public schools are overwhelmed with students with very severe needs, and that staff live in fear of either being injured, being held responsible for another student being injured, or ending up on the six o'clock news or YouTube while trying to prevent someone from being injured. I don't know what the answer is. I don't disagree, there needs to be something, some set of guidelines... restraint doesn't have to be dangerous but by just allowing schools and their officers to restrain in anyway they find appropriate you set up a system that is dangerous for children. I think some training in deescalating situations is also in order, there are very specific ways to talk to a child who is in a rage to help them calm down, and very specific body language that needs to be used to show you are not threatening. Kids who are throwing things in the classroom, hitting, pinching etc are not in control of themselves and because they are children they haven't learned how calm themselves or master their emotions. Quite frankly I'm not sure that integrating these kids into the "normal" classroom is the right way to do things, not only are they disruptive to their classmates, they are in an environment where they are expected to behave in ways that they are not developmentally ready to handle which has them at a low level frustration on a daily basis before you ever add in the other daily stressors. I worked previously with kids like the little boy in the video and worse, I have had books thrown at me and had to evacuate other students from a room while a child raged. While the temptation is to be angry with that child, you have to empathize with someone who's only way of telling you of their frustration is to throw things and become violent, to be trapped in your own head and not be able to communicate your needs, to not be able to express yourself effectively must be SO incredibly maddening. And these kids, for the most part are not non-verbal and in many cases are not learning disabled, they have emotional disabilities, mental health issues, lack of parental involvement(not just a parent who doesn't care about what's going on at school), developmental delays that are not readily visible when you first meet them. To take someone like that and then hold them down and block off access to the only way they have to express their feelings, can you imagine how that feels. I understand the need to do it but I can't help but feel absolutely awful for the kids who have it happen to them.
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clem
One Post Wonder
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Aug 5, 2015 14:57:46 GMT
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Post by clem on Aug 5, 2015 15:32:42 GMT
I have zero experience with "gifted" children in a school environment. But, I'm smart enough to know that the treatment administered in the video isn't acceptable. I guarantee that we are only seeing a small part of the incident. Still...unacceptable treatment. Breaks my heart!
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~Lauren~
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Post by ~Lauren~ on Aug 5, 2015 16:39:24 GMT
No. Absolutely not. I think that this country has gone insane trying to insure mainstream education for children that do not belong in a classroom.
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Dani-Mani
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Jun 28, 2014 17:36:35 GMT
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Post by Dani-Mani on Aug 5, 2015 16:56:40 GMT
I think that there has to be a better way...20 children have DIED being restrained at school since 1992. While I don't think this particular child is in any danger I do think that it sets a precedent that allows for extreme mishandling and abuse. Many people believe restraints involve holding a child down on the floor. This should never be done. I'm trained to restrain children on my feet and on their feet. It never cuts out their airway. I used to be against restraints completely, but there are proper ways to retrain and I'm glad I was introduced to them.
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Post by Dori~Mama~Bear on Aug 5, 2015 17:16:47 GMT
I must be watching a different video than some of you are. They say right in the narration that the reason he's not cuffed around the wrists is because the cuffs are too big. He's obviously uncomfortable and upset, but he's not screaming in pain or being injured or even treated roughly. I see the cop getting down on his level and speaking calmly to him, reminding him of his choices. I really don't see the outrage, to be honest. Those of you saying there's "no reason" to restrain a child like this have clearly never been punched, kicked or bitten by an enraged child with what seems like superhuman strength. You've never had thousands of dollars worth of damage done to classroom materials, many of which you purchased with your own money, and none of which are likely to be immediately replaced. You've never risked your job, teaching license and professional reputation putting your hands on a child to restrain him before he hurts himself or someone else. You've never chased a child a half mile down the road because when you took him out of the classroom to calm down, he bolted out the exterior door and took off. It's a sad situation, but some kids have serious issues. Safety has to be the first priority. Doesn't matter if the cuffs are too large. They didn't need to pull his arms back like that and force him to sit there like that. Try to hold your arms in that position. IT HURTS! It is not a natural way for your arms to be. I can understand restraining the child if he is going to harm someone else or himself I just don't agree with the way they did it.
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Post by Merge on Aug 5, 2015 17:20:23 GMT
This isn't just happening in mainstream environments, though. We have two SLC classes (autism) with about ten kids each and a BSC (behavior support/emotionally disturbed) class with about ten. In each of those classes, only 2-3 kids frequently become violent. It's not fair to the other 8-9 kids in those classes, who are not violent, that they have to clear the room several times a week and deal with their belongings and classroom materials being destroyed.
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happymomma
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Aug 6, 2014 23:57:56 GMT
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Post by happymomma on Aug 5, 2015 17:22:34 GMT
No. Absolutely not. I think that this country has gone insane trying to insure mainstream education for children that do not belong in a classroom. This I agree with, for many reasons. My father was a special ed teacher. That was many years ago, but are special ed classrooms a thing of the past now? It seems like I hear and read about classrooms that have special ed students that are mainstreamed into regular classrooms all the time. If I were a parent that had a child that needed more individualized attention I would rather they be in an environment where they can get it. Also, as a parent of a non specialized student, I would not like that my child's education and classroom time was being interrupted because the rights of another child to be in a regular classroom trumped their right to a calm setting without these interruptions. I would also not like that my child's safety is in greater risk because of these particular students. Is there still risk in any classroom? Yes. But why up the risk factors? I think it is also a disservice to the special education child that they are put in a regular class where they are not able to progress at their own level as easily and also that they may not have teachers who are specialized in helping them. We have specialists in medicine, why not education?
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