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Post by penny on Aug 25, 2015 12:19:47 GMT
And now for an on-topic post... in Canada (or maybe it's Ontario? But I think it's a federal policy), there is no age of consent for medical treatment. Parents can't force children to take medical treatment if they don't want it, and neither can medical professionals. Obviously this doesn't apply in this case since the patient is unable to voice her opinion. If this is a topic that interests you, I know there are lots of cases and resources that discuss the intricacies of this topic. ETA: running out the door to work so if I'm mistaken on some of the details, my apologies!! I didn't know that. Does that include "routine" vaccines given at 3-5 years old? Don't most kids protest those? ( not talking about an anti-vaxxer argument) This link is to a newspaper article regarding a specific case, but it does explain in layman's terms what the wordy legal and medical documents say... It has links in it too... The main quote: "Ontario is different from many other provinces in that it affords children complete control over their own health-care decisions unless they are deemed incapable by a physician. The doctor's decision can be appealed to the Consent and Capacity Board. Most other provinces work the opposite way — children must qualify as a “mature minor” in order for their decisions to hold sway. In Quebec, children under 14 are considered minors and must meet the “mature minor” test, while in Manitoba children under 16 are minors." A 3-5 year old wouldn't meet a mature minor test, or be considered able to comprehend the choice (there are criteria set out - must be able to understand their diagnosis, must be able to understand the consequences, etc)... In cases like that, the guardian (parent or otherwise), would be the person giving consent/making decisions... t.thestar.com/#/article/news/gta/2015/01/20/ontario-law-allows-children-to-determine-medical-care.html
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Post by penny on Aug 25, 2015 12:21:13 GMT
As much as I understand the desire to ponder about something that interests you...sometimes you have to learn when NOT to say anything, and this is one of those times. I definitely don't understand why you can't see the links between your first nations friend who is being denied glasses, and denying medical treatment to a disabled child. This is just really weird and I think I'm the first to tag admin and ask that this thread be locked or deleted. It's a very distressing topic being discussed in a totally offensive manner. Is there another thread this is a spin off of? I scrolled back and don't see anything about being denied glasses. I don't see anything offensive being discussed here. Unless this child is related to someone on this board it's really no different then the posting of other articles of interest and discussing them. Not a spin off... This is the separate thread regarding glasses 2peasrefugees.boards.net/thread/28514
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Post by penny on Aug 25, 2015 12:22:50 GMT
I need to figure out how to block people... It's super easy if you really want to do it. Simple click on the person's name, over on the left near their avatar photo. It will open a box about their profile and the far right side will be a little gear with an arrow. Click on the arrow and you will be given the option "Block Member" right at the top. I'm not getting that come up in the app I'm using... Think maybe I can only do it online...
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scrappinmama
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,864
Jun 26, 2014 12:54:09 GMT
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Post by scrappinmama on Aug 25, 2015 12:23:49 GMT
Why would you think that anyone would care about your ethical paper? The world does not care what you think about this topic. You need to learn not to post every one of your thoughts.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
May 2, 2024 12:07:48 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2015 12:24:03 GMT
I'm going to say that it's not the title that pissed people off, but rather your idiotic thoughts and nonsense posting that pissed some people off. I usually do not interact with you because I find you to be clueless flighty moron most days. Today, it's past clueless and right smack in the middle of stupid.
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johnnysmom
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,682
Jun 25, 2014 21:16:33 GMT
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Post by johnnysmom on Aug 25, 2015 12:24:36 GMT
And now for an on-topic post... in Canada (or maybe it's Ontario? But I think it's a federal policy), there is no age of consent for medical treatment. Parents can't force children to take medical treatment if they don't want it, and neither can medical professionals. Obviously this doesn't apply in this case since the patient is unable to voice her opinion. If this is a topic that interests you, I know there are lots of cases and resources that discuss the intricacies of this topic. ETA: running out the door to work so if I'm mistaken on some of the details, my apologies!! I didn't know that. Does that include "routine" vaccines given at 3-5 years old? Don't most kids protest those? ( not talking about an anti-vaxxer argument) Oh gosh id hope not. I just took my almost 5yo for shots yesterday. If anyone had asked *him* if he wanted them they'd get a preschool version of HELL NO.....and then no pre-k for him this year. Instead id be spending the next 12 months trying to convince him why he needed the momentary pain of shots. Can you imagine:O
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Post by penny on Aug 25, 2015 12:30:08 GMT
I didn't know that. Does that include "routine" vaccines given at 3-5 years old? Don't most kids protest those? ( not talking about an anti-vaxxer argument) Oh gosh id hope not. I just took my almost 5yo for shots yesterday. If anyone had asked *him* if he wanted them they'd get a preschool version of HELL NO.....and then no pre-k for him this year. Instead id be spending the next 12 months trying to convince him why he needed the momentary pain of shots. Can you imagine:O You're the boss until he can pass the "mature minor" test
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Deleted
Posts: 0
May 2, 2024 12:07:48 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2015 12:31:10 GMT
Thanks Penny for explains about medical consent here. I would hope no one really thinks that this means a child can say "no!" And everyone just goes along with it. :rolls eyes:
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Post by pjaye on Aug 25, 2015 12:35:57 GMT
Yes this is different. She didn't post to discuss the situation and wasn't asking what other people thought or would do, she posted that she was going to write a paper on the ethics of situations like this. She also asked if "other countries would do this" and that implies that she thinks her country is wrong in treating this child.
It's offensive to those people who do work in this field and I would think parents who have been in this situation that a person with NO experience in this area, that she thinks she can write about the medical ethics involved here. Offensive and arrogant. "Research" in this case would be legitimate medical research done by meeting with and talking to parents like this, doctors, nurses & oncologists as well as long term case studies and evaluation of medical data and a collation of the various outcomes for each child and each different type of treatment. We all know that this is not what she meant by research and she thinks a quick google search will suffice and she'll know all about 'ethics' for her bullshit little 'paper'.
The fact that she tosses words around like ethics and research when she doesn't even know what the words mean, and thinks what? we're all going to legitimise her fantasy world? Not this time.
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Deleted
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May 2, 2024 12:07:48 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2015 12:50:45 GMT
I don't understand the rudeness and vitriol in this thread. If you don't like Elannah's posting style, don't read her posts.
There is no need to insult her and be so rude. There's no harm in wanting to learn more about a topic, and putting her down for it is just mean. If anyone was legitimately concerned about the quality of information she may find you could recommend good resources instead of mocking her.
I think questioning things and wanting to know more is a good thing. Suggesting only a certain subset of the population is permitted to do so, is arrogant and restrictive.
There are lots of free, accurate ways to research topics like the ethics of medical consent. You can search free research journals (is Plos One still openly published?) and Google Scholar is a great way to find research articles on any given topic.
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tincin
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,368
Jul 25, 2014 4:55:32 GMT
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Post by tincin on Aug 25, 2015 12:57:21 GMT
I have often wondered if the millions of dollars we spend saving a baby who will spend the rest of their life handicapped in multiple ways would have been better spent feeding the children who are going to bed hungry. It is easy to say since the baby being saved isn't mine but isn't there a point at which we would be better of saying that no attempts at saving a child are made? I don't suspect there is an easy answer but it's nice to know someone else is thinking like me.
ETA - I wrote the first paragraph before reading the angry, hateful replies of many of the posters. In my opinion, you are welcome to post any and all ideas you have. If the others don't want to read them, they are welcome to ignore them. Mine and yours both. There is no reason to reply in such a nasty vile manner to a person who is simply asking about an idea and wishing to discuss it.
I think that at some point, that it seems almost cruel to continue to treat some patients. Is this a case of that? I have no idea but it is still a topic of interest to me and to Elannah also it seems.
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Post by penny on Aug 25, 2015 13:02:54 GMT
What? If you think it's an inappropriate comment or post in front of that child's relative, then feel free to assume it's an inappropriate post in front of anyone who's had a loved one in that situation.... And if you decide to start a thread pondering if a certain child is worth saving, then at least have the decency to not include their names or a link to their Go Fund Me page... You do realize that a search for that child will bring up this thread, right? You get that someone who loves that child could Google - looking for the fundraising page, and find someone singling out their daughter, niece, granddaughter, as a child not worth saving... I'm all in for a discussion about ethics and the cost of healthcare, but be aware and considerate... admin I don't want anyone who knows this child to find this thread... Please just delete it...
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Post by pjaye on Aug 25, 2015 13:03:14 GMT
The fact that there are none is part of the point that also has escaped you.
You're always ready to run on and claim everyone is rude and arrogant when you disagree with them, but you're more than capable of it yourself.
The same goes for you, you don't want to read the rude responses...then don't read them. You don't think people should be rude to her, then you can choose not to be rude. The rest of us will post what we think. She gets far too much of a free pass around here for posting deliberately inflammatory things and then slipping in the odd "I'm bipolar" post and therefore doesn't ever own anything she writes. Elannah knows full well what she's doing and she's plain old manipulative. Are you forgetting her rude posts to another person who's mother had cancer?, her being banned from 2 peas?
I'm tired of it and tired of ignoring it, because at some point ignoring it starts to feel like complicity.
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Post by gar on Aug 25, 2015 13:03:27 GMT
ashley - what I find odd is the terminology. If I was interested in a subject I would look into it, I might start a discussion here or with friends but I can't imagine saying "I'd like to write an ethics paper but I won't publish it". Well of course I won't publish it because......well, thats just not going to happen is it. I don't feel particularly strongly about what Elannah wrote, I just think it's a strange thought process.
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anniebygaslight
Drama Llama
I'd love a cup of tea. #1966
Posts: 7,394
Location: Third Rock from the sun.
Jun 28, 2014 14:08:19 GMT
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Post by anniebygaslight on Aug 25, 2015 13:04:27 GMT
I agree penny, this is really annoying and hit a nerve with me tonight, usually Elannah bathers on about random nothingness and I can ignore it. I have worked as a nurse in paediatric wards, I have looked after kids with cancer, I have held them when they have has procedures, held them when they were upset, hugged them with joy when they got to finally go home, and sometimes been there when they passed away and cried with their parents. It really annoys me when someone with not a single minute of experience in this area claims they could just read a few google pages and "write an ethics paper" about this overwhelming and traumatic time in the lives of the kids and their parents. Bullshit, no you can't and it's fucking unbelievably arrogant to think you can. Bravo.
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Post by penny on Aug 25, 2015 13:19:05 GMT
I don't understand the rudeness and vitriol in this thread. If you don't like Elannah's posting style, don't read her posts. There is no need to insult her and be so rude. There's no harm in wanting to learn more about a topic, and putting her down for it is just mean. If anyone was legitimately concerned about the quality of information she may find you could recommend good resources instead of mocking her. I think questioning things and wanting to know more is a good thing. Suggesting only a certain subset of the population is permitted to do so, is arrogant and restrictive. There are lots of free, accurate ways to research topics like the ethics of medical consent. You can search free research journals (is Plos One still openly published?) and Google Scholar is a great way to find research articles on any given topic. I was harsh, and I didn't mean for it to be rude but I can see that my posts were very aggressive... I'm sorry for that... FWIW, I like the variety of topics and discussions we have here... The combination of singling out a particular child and my past experiences with the OP not replying to questions or comments in posts really got to me... I didn't handle myself well... Another Pea tagged admin and asked her to delete the thread, and that would've been a better choice for me to make...
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Post by disneypal on Aug 25, 2015 13:28:00 GMT
I would love to write an ethical paper on this supporting my opinion of her treatment as someone working in health care payments. I had better edit this part, too in blue bold: I am not sure why two Peas are getting bent out of shape because I want to research something that interests me. It would be a work of fiction as I would not use anyone's real names or anything.
Not only that, I would not publish it. Heck I wouldn't even hit print on my printer.
I didn't see your OP, but based on this info....what is stopping you? If you want to research and write a paper for your own personal use, then go right ahead.
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Post by katieanna on Aug 25, 2015 13:34:12 GMT
If you wanted to write it for your eyes only, why did you post it here? This is what I was thinking.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
May 2, 2024 12:07:48 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2015 13:37:38 GMT
I have often wondered if the millions of dollars we spend saving a baby who will spend the rest of their life handicapped in multiple ways would have been better spent feeding the children who are going to bed hungry. It is easy to say since the baby being saved isn't mine but isn't there a point at which we would be better of saying that no attempts at saving a child are made? I don't suspect there is an easy answer but it's nice to know someone else is thinking like me. Handicapped in multiple ways because of the Down's or because of the cancer ? I'm sure these people ( taken as an example) are pretty glad that no one made that decision when they were 10 months old and facing a life with Down's 7 stars with Down Syndrome there are many more that lead quite " normal" lives.Or for that matter the millions of children that have survived childhood leukaemia.
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Post by nurseypants on Aug 25, 2015 13:46:34 GMT
I think when you say 'write a paper,' what you really mean is 'make a diary entry.'
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Post by melanell on Aug 25, 2015 13:47:52 GMT
It's super easy if you really want to do it. Simple click on the person's name, over on the left near their avatar photo. It will open a box about their profile and the far right side will be a little gear with an arrow. Click on the arrow and you will be given the option "Block Member" right at the top. I'm not getting that come up in the app I'm using... Think maybe I can only do it online... Sorry. I don't use a smart phone, so I never even stop to think about the differences.
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Post by Basket1lady on Aug 25, 2015 14:16:44 GMT
Every life has value. Our society can't possibly continue if we start to judge who is worthy of medical treatment.
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Post by pjaye on Aug 25, 2015 14:35:54 GMT
Saving it all but the link. This is about a 10month old with AML who also happens to have Down syndrome. Look at Elannah's language here:
subjected to lumbar punctures intensive chemotherapy save at all costs that sick draw the line too fragile and won't survive treatment
This is what her parents write about her:
If Elannah wanted a genuine discussion, then why did she just make up those false statements. Nowhere there or on the Facebook page does it say anything about being too fragile, or not surviving treatment, in fact the Facebook page says she probably already had her last lumbar puncture, The information in the OP has clearly been written to manipulate and deceive. Then suddenly when the backlash starts, she flips from "I would love to write an ethical paper on this supporting my opinion of her treatment as someone working in health care payments" Elannah she does not work in "health care payments" (another lie) to: "It would be a work of fiction" So she's going to write an ethical paper on this case that is simultaneously a work of fiction?
There's been threads here and on the old site that have discussed abortion, specifically of children with disabilities and multiple people get very worked up about parents aborting these babies, yet here are two parents who obviously love their child very deeply and desperately want her to live but Elannah is trying to muster up support for the idea just to let her die because it's going to cost too much? AND she wants to "write an ethics paper" about why. Imagine if her parents saw that? I am disgusted by what she wrote and this time I'm not going shut up and ignore it.
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Post by anonrefugee on Aug 25, 2015 14:42:48 GMT
Thanks Penny for explains about medical consent here. I would hope no one really thinks that this means a child can say "no!" And everyone just goes along with it. :rolls eyes: Don't roll your eyes, how would we learn if we didn't ask questions? "Asking" means we are not "judging". ETA Twice because I managed to make typos in my typo corrections, darn it.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
May 2, 2024 12:07:48 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2015 14:47:49 GMT
have to say I am sitting on the bench with pjaye on this one. I too read the OP as arguing they should let her die because she has DS. And to assume your ethical opinion matters on this specific case? If you wanted the Ps to discuss the issue, then state the issue correctly. But I am betting very few of us would say not to do as much treatment as possible until there is no hope left.
I have a nephew with leukemia and he is in remission. I have friends with DS children. I cannot for the life of me imagine that either should be a death sentence just because they have the other. Instead I now have a new friend to pray for ...baby Lily and her family.
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Post by miominmio on Aug 25, 2015 14:52:53 GMT
Every life has value. Our society can't possibly continue if we start to judge who is worthy of medical treatment. But "we" already do! It might be an insurance company or NHS or whatever....but people are denied medical treatment every day because someone somewhere has deemed that it will be too expensive or "not ethical". And the interesting question is: where should we draw the line? (Or "the lines" as the case may be). Was it wrong not to treat my 89 yo grandmother who was in late stages of dementia, for uterine cancer? Would it be wrong to treat a multihandicapped (not the girl mentioned earlier) for cancer? HOW should we draw the line? WHO should do it? (And I disagree with Pjaye, that should not be the monopoly of those working in the medical field). it is difficult, it is about people after all, but realistically, not everyone can be treated for everything, the resources just isn't there.
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Post by miominmio on Aug 25, 2015 14:56:40 GMT
But I agree it's odd that Elannah claims to work in health care payment, when she has said again and again that she sells dresses......
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Post by tinydogmafia on Aug 25, 2015 14:57:12 GMT
Elannah, I'm sorry to say you are the first and only person I will have on ignore here.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't your mother have dementia and cancer? Should someone who has dementia not treat their cancer because they already have dementia?
Perhaps spending some time with sick children would open your thoughts to many things. Hold them as they cry, hold their parents as they ask for answers to questions that have no answers. Every child deserves a chance. And I'm here to tell you that any doctor who does this type of works knows when to tell parents there is nothing more that can be done.
Long before I went into long term care, I worked in pediatrics. It changed my life. It taught me that although I am a very black and white thinker, there is ALWAYS a gray area. And until you are in that situation you have no right to make those choices for anyone else. Just because you work in health care payments, (I thought you worked retail?) I really don't think your ethics opinions matter much. Why don't you just own it and say what you want to, you feel this child shouldn't be treated for cancer. I hope you never find yourself in such a situation. I hope you never have to make these types of choices.
I've tried to word this response as politely as possible. And if I have failed, I apologize.
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Post by Goldynn on Aug 25, 2015 15:01:14 GMT
pjaye, as the mother of a delightful 11 year old boy with DS, who's had numerous medical issues and physical challenges, I want to say Thank You! Thank you for succinctly and cohesively writing down many of my own thoughts about this distressing thread. I could go on endlessly about the joy this child has brought me, the delight he has over the most simple things, the way he makes every day fun with his happy disposition. If one was to merely read through his medical charts, they would have no indication of the delight and peace he brings to our family. Basket1lady is right, we can't possibly begin to judge who is worthy of medical treatment, nor should we make sideline decisions regarding the treatment given in situations we know absolutely nothing about! It it seems quite obvious to me that Delta Dawn's OP indicates her opposition to supporting continued treatment for Lily, with no basis whatsoever for such an opinion. Her stream-of-consciousness thoughts in the situation are, at the very least, simplistic, uneducated and offensive to those who have personal experiences in such things (as penny has wisely pointed out).
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Deleted
Posts: 0
May 2, 2024 12:07:48 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2015 15:15:22 GMT
Goldynn....Have you seen the meme of the little girl in the shirt that says "I rock this extra chromosome" (or something close to that)? It went viral a few years ago. That is one of my friends DDs. She is amazing and such a blessing to EVERYONE that she meets. So I totally understand how delightful your son can be. Elannah's ignorance is just that. Sad ignorance.
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