~Lauren~
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,876
Jun 26, 2014 3:33:18 GMT
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Post by ~Lauren~ on Nov 29, 2015 22:43:56 GMT
maybe there is some hope that sanity will return to this country University Pres schools self-absorbed students
And if possible, let's try to address the topic rather than calling each other names just because we agree or disagree with this article.
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Post by cadoodlebug on Nov 29, 2015 22:53:40 GMT
I agree completely.
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Post by meridon on Nov 29, 2015 22:54:52 GMT
Thanks for sharing. I teach high school government and we've been having lots of discussions about these sorts of things recently...I'm not exactly sure how we've come to reinterpret the 1st amendment so badly. You do not have a constitutionally protected right to not get your feelings hurt. Yes, a lot of "hate speech" is protected by the 1st amendment. I am sorry you don't like it, but you don't have the right to censor people, either. Of all places, universities should be a "marketplace of ideas."
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paget
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,752
Jun 25, 2014 21:16:39 GMT
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Post by paget on Nov 29, 2015 22:57:22 GMT
I loved the president's response: that feeling of discomfort is a conscience. Haha. Yeah, that.
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Post by M~ on Nov 29, 2015 23:11:00 GMT
Aren't these the kids of our contemporaries though? If so, our generation (present company excluded because I do not have kids)created these precious snowflakes. And, from what I read here sometimes in terms of "the rules don't apply to *MY* kids," I'm not that surprised.
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Post by crimsoncat05 on Nov 29, 2015 23:25:35 GMT
I also agree completely.
(don't hold out too much hope for a sweeping change, sadly, but I do agree with the article.)
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Deleted
Posts: 0
May 19, 2024 19:37:38 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2015 23:27:48 GMT
This... "What’s been almost as disconcerting as the students’ attitudes themselves is the way the administrations have so quickly acquiesced to the students demands. So Wesleyan’s Piper is a heartening sight to see indeed." Thanks for sharing this article ~Lauren~.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
May 19, 2024 19:37:38 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2015 23:32:25 GMT
Thanks for sharing. I teach high school government and we've been having lots of discussions about these sorts of things recently...I'm not exactly sure how we've come to reinterpret the 1st amendment so badly. You do not have a constitutionally protected right to not get your feelings hurt. Yes, a lot of "hate speech" is protected by the 1st amendment. I am sorry you don't like it, but you don't have the right to censor people, either. Of all places, universities should be a "marketplace of ideas." Exactly. The idea that what you think will not be tolerated here, is one that is taking over. And it isn't just in the universities.
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Post by anxiousmom on Nov 29, 2015 23:42:20 GMT
Aren't these the kids of our contemporaries though? If so, our generation (present company excluded because I do not have kids)created these precious snowflakes. And, from what I read here sometimes in terms of "the rules don't apply to *MY* kids," I'm not that surprised. We are. And it has been a constant uphill battle to parent kids when we don't agree. We call it the 'everybody gets a trophy' mentality. But as the parent of kids that sometimes received the participation trophies, we were told by endless parenting experts that it was the right thing to do in order to develop healthy self-esteem. We were told to call discipline 'consequences' and that everything should be framed in the positive, even when we were giving consequences. We were told that even the gentle swats on the bottom for effect were considered abusive... I could go on and on. Those that tried to buck this way of parenting were often told how we were seriously damaging our children. So yes, it is our contemporaries, but certainly not all of us. I know that I may have fallen in the pattern sometimes, but overall, I tried really hard to balance out the healthy esteem thing with old school discipline. But honestly, when the experts are telling us that we need to do things in a certain way, it is hard to look the pediatrician in the eye and admit that yes, I have swatted the boy on his bottom-because I will forever be labeled as an abusive, horrible parent. It is hard to do otherwise-and yes, the consequences of that type of parenting is coming home to roost now.
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Post by scrapsotime on Nov 30, 2015 0:01:22 GMT
I agree with most of the article. This part, though, I don't agree with.
I sit pretty much in the middle and see this kind of thing on both sides of the fence when it comes some peoples children.
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tuesdaysgone
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,832
Jun 26, 2014 18:26:03 GMT
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Post by tuesdaysgone on Nov 30, 2015 0:10:48 GMT
Thanks for sharing. I agree with most of the article. The far right and the far left almost meet at the same intersection: our view point is the only correct one and if you don't agree then your point of view is not valid and you are evil. I fear for the future of real, open, compassionate dialog in this country.
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Post by snappinsami on Nov 30, 2015 0:21:36 GMT
"Piper’s description of the culture of victimization — one where any time their feelings are hurt, they are the victims! Anyone who dares challenge them and, thus, makes them ‘feel bad’ about themselves, is a ‘hater,’ a ‘bigot,’ an ‘oppressor,’ and a ‘victimizer’."
This is exactly what I've been saying for a while now. We (not WE-we... You know what I mean) seem to have forgotten how to constructively (or even politely) deal with things/people/ideas/etc. that are different than what we're used to or comfortable with. Add that to helicopter parenting and parents not allowing their children to every be in situations that are less than warm and fuzzy or telling them that they're wonderful, and we're left with the situation we now have on college campuses.
I really hope that Piper doesn't get fired for that letter. We need more of that, IMHO.
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Post by cadoodlebug on Nov 30, 2015 0:27:16 GMT
Almost 20 years ago I was team mom for my son's young soccer team. They told me I had to buy trophies so I bought small ones with a little boy on the top. I was chastised by several parents that they weren't grown up enough. They were 5 & 6 years old. Don't know when the tide changed in colleges ~ I'm thinking in the last 5 or so years. It seems I've heard more about this type of thing in the past year. Allowing students to have pets in the dorm to help them be in their happy place. Hell, we couldn't even have TV's when I was in college.
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Post by ahiller on Nov 30, 2015 1:11:34 GMT
I agree with most of the article. This part, though, I don't agree with. I sit pretty much in the middle and see this kind of thing on both sides of the fence when it comes some peoples children. Yeah, the article had me until this part. I am pretty far left and don't raise my kids this way. As a previous poster stated, "participation parenting" was the recommended method by many doctors/psychs/counselors, etc., was it not? Blaming any one political party is bullshit, imo.
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~Lauren~
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,876
Jun 26, 2014 3:33:18 GMT
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Post by ~Lauren~ on Nov 30, 2015 1:36:23 GMT
OK, so you disagree with his blaming the far left; aside from that do you believe the issue is as he states?
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Post by Merge on Nov 30, 2015 1:45:16 GMT
I agree with most of the article. This part, though, I don't agree with. I sit pretty much in the middle and see this kind of thing on both sides of the fence when it comes some peoples children. Yeah, the article had me until this part. I am pretty far left and don't raise my kids this way. As a previous poster stated, "participation parenting" was the recommended method by many doctors/psychs/counselors, etc., was it not? Blaming any one political party is bullshit, imo. Yeah, I don't think in a world that is supposedly waging a "war on Christmas," and where far-right American Christians claim persecution from a red cup, that we can assign all the blame for the culture of victimization to those on the left. I think the pendulum swings back and forth. When I was in college 25 years ago, parents and students complained about the controversial things being taught by my western civ and English comp teachers, both of whom were liberal atheists. Really controversial things like there being validity to more than one religious viewpoint, or that the main stories of the bible bore a lot of coincidental resemblance to creation and salvation myths in other cultures and religions. I remember a group of students walking out of lectures and I know that there was a push to have certain professors removed. Parents in my high school threw a fit because my AP government teacher hung posters for both major party candidates during the 1988 election - they felt Dukakis' poster was placed more prominently and showed favoritism. We now see a backlash against some forms of conservative thought in our universities, but pretending this is the first time in history that some students have objected to free speech with which they don't agree is blatantly revisionist.
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Post by anonrefugee on Nov 30, 2015 1:52:15 GMT
anxiousmom , nice description. For all the changes in society I speculate parenting is subjected to more oversight and comparisons than ever before. Add this to changes in family dynamics, and a tough economy, and there are few precedents to follow. It's more than just discipline decisions. I don't think any source (left, right, common man, media, etc) owns this. And I sometimes think it's more hype than reality. I've heard middle school counsellors make disparaging remarks about college kids needing Mom to talk to professors. But when I look at family friends they're putting kids on planes for a semester, and no way they're calling college faculty or doing laundry.
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~Lauren~
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,876
Jun 26, 2014 3:33:18 GMT
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Post by ~Lauren~ on Nov 30, 2015 1:52:25 GMT
The difference is that students were not disciplined and hunted down for expressing opinions, or god forbid, hurting someone's feelings. I really don't see how anyone can support this kind of thing.
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Post by Merge on Nov 30, 2015 1:55:13 GMT
As to the larger question - I see examples of victim mentality where I teach, but I also see a lot of young people who have clearly NOT been raised to expect to always win, or that things must always go their way. I see a lot of really great young human beings who will grow up to be great adults who don't feel the world owes them anything. I see the opposite, too, but in significantly fewer kids.
I think it's worth remembering that young adults in college, suddenly empowered with a little knowledge and a lot of freedom, don't always make great choices. Forcing out a speaker with whom they don't agree, or shutting down others' free speech - those might be choices they'll regret with the benefit of ten years' more experience. I wouldn't necessarily brand a generation with the choices it makes at age 21.
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Rainbow
Pearl Clutcher
Where salt is in the air and sand is at my feet...
Posts: 4,103
Jun 26, 2014 5:57:41 GMT
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Post by Rainbow on Nov 30, 2015 3:35:02 GMT
maybe there is some hope that sanity will return to this country University Pres schools self-absorbed students
And if possible, let's try to address the topic rather than calling each other names just because we agree or disagree with this article. Glad to hear it. It's about time someone took a stand. Cry-babies don't rule, lol.
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AnotherPea
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,968
Jan 4, 2015 1:47:52 GMT
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Post by AnotherPea on Nov 30, 2015 4:04:33 GMT
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Post by blondiec47 on Nov 30, 2015 11:27:43 GMT
The college kids lost me when they were pissed that the Paris terrorist attack took them off the front page
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Rainbow
Pearl Clutcher
Where salt is in the air and sand is at my feet...
Posts: 4,103
Jun 26, 2014 5:57:41 GMT
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Post by Rainbow on Nov 30, 2015 11:54:54 GMT
Wow. That video sums up the situation quite well!
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Post by anxiousmom on Nov 30, 2015 12:20:31 GMT
Oh my gosh, I don't know about this. I don't disagree that there is a problem, but I think that this is like everything else and we should be very careful to not lump all of the entitlement kids in with the rest of the world. I have kids that age and I see some entitlement feelings, but a lot of what I see is fairly normal teenage angst and passion for their causes. I also see, daily, kids that work hard to succeed, kids that are polite and kind and compassionate and don't think that they deserve an A because they showed up for school. They don't think that they are entitled to a free college education, they don't think that they deserve to be given something for nothing...etc. They are good kids who work hard at their studies, at their volunteer work and at being good citizens in general. They pay attention to current events, have well reasoned opinions, and don't fly off the handle if things don't go their way. They join the military wanting to serve a greater good. They can be fat pains in the ass-but not because they are special little snowflakes who think that they should preferred treatment because of some reason or another but because they are typical teenagers who exploring the world and not totally understanding how to do that gracefully. The majority of kids, I think, are like this. It is the very visible minority (and their helicopter moms) are the ones that are reported on.
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AnotherPea
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,968
Jan 4, 2015 1:47:52 GMT
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Post by AnotherPea on Nov 30, 2015 12:26:51 GMT
Absolutely- the majority are awesome. I don't think anyone disagrees. I believe the comments come from a place of concern and prevention. If we shut down this mess NOW, the entitled minority will stay a minority.
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Post by Karmady on Nov 30, 2015 13:35:59 GMT
I think the majority of kids are awesome too. But there are a few over-the-top special snowflakes who feel very entitiled.
My dh works at a major auto manufacturer. He said said that many of the new hires have been over 40 years of age. He said that the younger kids don't have the same work ethic and he's sick of dealing with the special snowflakes. They will make some accomodations but your highschool IEP does not apply in the work environment. Having said that, I do have a special needs son (who will not be working) and a son with ADHD who is well aware that he will need to deal with his condition on his own as an adult.
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TheOtherMeg
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,541
Jun 25, 2014 20:58:14 GMT
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Post by TheOtherMeg on Nov 30, 2015 14:38:58 GMT
As to the larger question - I see examples of victim mentality where I teach, but I also see a lot of young people who have clearly NOT been raised to expect to always win, or that things must always go their way. I see a lot of really great young human beings who will grow up to be great adults who don't feel the world owes them anything. I see the opposite, too, but in significantly fewer kids. I think it's worth remembering that young adults in college, suddenly empowered with a little knowledge and a lot of freedom, don't always make great choices. Forcing out a speaker with whom they don't agree, or shutting down others' free speech - those might be choices they'll regret with the benefit of ten years' more experience. I wouldn't necessarily brand a generation with the choices it makes at age 21.Exactly. And the majority of undergraduates are even younger than 21, so branding a generation based on the choices its members (a portion of them, to be more precise) make while in college is basically judging these people forever on how they act(ed) while still... not children, I guess, but certainly not adults.
Even the "kids" in their early twenties who are making a nuisance of themselves in the workforce will likely simmer down after some time in the real world.
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TheOtherMeg
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,541
Jun 25, 2014 20:58:14 GMT
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Post by TheOtherMeg on Nov 30, 2015 14:42:47 GMT
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Post by RiverIsis on Nov 30, 2015 14:48:25 GMT
I think the majority of kids are awesome too. But there are a few over-the-top special snowflakes who feel very entitiled. My dh works at a major auto manufacturer. He said said that many of the new hires have been over 40 years of age. He said that the younger kids don't have the same work ethic and he's sick of dealing with the special snowflakes. They will make some accomodations but your highschool IEP does not apply in the work environment. Having said that, I do have a special needs son (who will not be working) and a son with ADHD who is well aware that he will need to deal with his condition on his own as an adult. Depends on if the reason for the IEP is protected under the ADA www.ada.gov/cguide.htm
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Post by gmcwife1 on Nov 30, 2015 16:56:15 GMT
Aren't these the kids of our contemporaries though? If so, our generation (present company excluded because I do not have kids)created these precious snowflakes. And, from what I read here sometimes in terms of "the rules don't apply to *MY* kids," I'm not that surprised. We are. And it has been a constant uphill battle to parent kids when we don't agree. We call it the 'everybody gets a trophy' mentality. But as the parent of kids that sometimes received the participation trophies, we were told by endless parenting experts that it was the right thing to do in order to develop healthy self-esteem. We were told to call discipline 'consequences' and that everything should be framed in the positive, even when we were giving consequences. We were told that even the gentle swats on the bottom for effect were considered abusive... I could go on and on. Those that tried to buck this way of parenting were often told how we were seriously damaging our children. So yes, it is our contemporaries, but certainly not all of us. I know that I may have fallen in the pattern sometimes, but overall, I tried really hard to balance out the healthy esteem thing with old school discipline. But honestly, when the experts are telling us that we need to do things in a certain way, it is hard to look the pediatrician in the eye and admit that yes, I have swatted the boy on his bottom-because I will forever be labeled as an abusive, horrible parent. It is hard to do otherwise-and yes, the consequences of that type of parenting is coming home to roost now. This is so true! As someone that has almost 10 yrs age difference between each of my three kids (33-26-16), I was able to see the differences and changes in parenting styles first hand with each child. I tried to raise my youngest as similar to how I raised my oldest, but there was a definite shift in parent attitudes and advice from the 'experts'. One of the biggest changes was between my 33 and 26 yr old. My 26 yr old came home and told us we could punish her and she could call the police, yada, yada, yada. Her brother's generation was raised thinking the parents had the upper hand, her generation challenged everything and any punishment/consequence. It was interesting to hear co-workers with children in her age group that had the same struggles. It's interesting to hear parents say they want responsible kids or kids that have to pay the consequences for their actions, until it's their kid, or a consequence they don't agree with.
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