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Post by mellyw on Apr 15, 2016 17:44:12 GMT
This is just an age old argument. As a kid I was also taught to fear my Lord God. Lot of kids don't have that either but that's a whole other can of worms. Fear makes you obedient. That's just the way it is. I agree to disagree. Ugh. Obedience isn't something I value. I would feel like a failure if anyone described me or my children as obedient. I also do not believe fear is a good thing. My children don't fear me. I have no desire for them to fear me. I just don't even understand people who think like this. I could not agree more. Thinking of my child as obedient makes me want to break out in hives. Never hit or threatened to hit my child growing up. Surprisingly (to some anyway), she's about to graduate with a BioMedical Engineer degree headed to medical school. If I only I had instilled fear of God (whatever the Hell that means) & hit her, maybe she'd be a more productive citizen.
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Apr 15, 2016 17:49:50 GMT
I was not beaten or spanked when I was a kid and I was a respectful child. My kids are the same. I work with a lot of families who have issues of disrespect, truancy, dysfunction, poverty, mental health and substance abuse issues. I have had many parents complain about their "power" and "parenting abilities" being taken away because they can't abuse their kids like their parents did. Or they want to do something different but don't have other skills that DO create respect rather than fear.
I agree that is sounds like this mother needs help in getting her kids to school (we obviously don't know the whole story here). However, if she had already been arrested and was being threatened with that again, the school was undermining her parenting in how they handled the situation, in addition to making this a traumatic situation for the child since the mother clearly was not happy about this. I can't see any good coming from this. I don't see this as a good consequence in any situation, but definitely not when the parent is not supportive and will then undermine the school even more due to her attitude regarding this situation.
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grammanisi
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Jun 26, 2014 1:37:37 GMT
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Post by grammanisi on Apr 15, 2016 17:52:16 GMT
I just... don't get the south. It's not just the south. I live in Indiana and it's legal here, too. I remember "back in the olden days" kids getting hit with the paddle in middle school. Boys and girls, right in front of the class. I was mortified. My parents never spanked us, so this was something that almost traumatized me.
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Post by Karen-in-Indiana on Apr 15, 2016 17:54:53 GMT
"Corporal punishment, usually delivered with an implement (such as a paddle or cane) rather than with the open hand, used to be a common form of school discipline in many countries, but it is now banned in most of the western world. These bans have been controversial, and in many cultures opinion remains sharply divided as to the efficacy or suitability of spanking as a punishment for misbehavior by school students."
Lets not confuse the real topic of this thread. Corporal punishment in schools. The bolded text is why I will no longer post in this thread. Opinions do differ! As they do in politics and religion.
Also, fear is an emotion. Do you ever fear that you might disappoint your parent with your actions? Fear does not necessarily mean that spanking is the outcome.
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Deleted
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Sept 30, 2024 12:19:35 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2016 17:56:05 GMT
I remember the paddle at my elementary school in the 60s/early 70s. I was terrified to the point of nightmares that I might be paddled. It scarred me for life and I never even had it as a punishment. My parents didn't spank, and didn't have to either.
I don't think that humiliating a kid is in any way a useful deterrent.
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pudgygroundhog
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Jun 25, 2014 20:18:39 GMT
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Post by pudgygroundhog on Apr 15, 2016 18:00:15 GMT
I was not beaten or spanked when I was a kid and I was a respectful child. My kids are the same. I work with a lot of families who have issues of disrespect, truancy, dysfunction, poverty, mental health and substance abuse issues. I have had many parents complain about their "power" and "parenting abilities" being taken away because they can't abuse their kids like their parents did. Or they want to do something different but don't have other skills that DO create respect rather than fear. I agree that is sounds like this mother needs help in getting her kids to school (we obviously don't know the whole story here). However, if she had already been arrested and was being threatened with that again, the school was undermining her parenting in how they handled the situation, in addition to making this a traumatic situation for the child since the mother clearly was not happy about this. I can't see any good coming from this. I don't see this as a good consequence in any situation, but definitely not when the parent is not supportive and will then undermine the school even more due to her attitude regarding this situation. It's hard being a parent and discipline is tough. I think for some parents spanking or abuse seems like a quick fix or easy answer.
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pudgygroundhog
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Location: The Grand Canyon
Jun 25, 2014 20:18:39 GMT
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Post by pudgygroundhog on Apr 15, 2016 18:01:46 GMT
"Corporal punishment, usually delivered with an implement (such as a paddle or cane) rather than with the open hand, used to be a common form of school discipline in many countries, but it is now banned in most of the western world. These bans have been controversial, and in many cultures opinion remains sharply divided as to the efficacy or suitability of spanking as a punishment for misbehavior by school students." Lets not confuse the real topic of this thread. Corporal punishment in schools. The bolded text is why I will no longer post in this thread. Opinions do differ! As they do in politics and religion. Also, fear is an emotion. Do you ever fear that you might disappoint your parent with your actions? Fear does not necessarily mean that spanking is the outcome. So using an implement makes it okay? I still don't get it.
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Deleted
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Sept 30, 2024 12:19:35 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2016 18:02:42 GMT
Also, fear is an emotion. Do you ever fear that you might disappoint your parent with your actions? Fear does not necessarily mean that spanking is the outcome. But you're the one talking about fear as a deterrent, there has to be something concrete 'to fear' for that to work. Kindness, understanding and patience are much better tools in my opinion and they always worked for me. No child ever came to me in fear of my reaction or hid things from me because they thought I might blow up at them. I also don't see why if there is a god we should fear them, I have never understood that train of thought.
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Deleted
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Sept 30, 2024 12:19:35 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2016 18:05:01 GMT
So using an implement makes it okay? I still don't get it. Maybe using an implement removes a person from the abuse? As in, my actual hands didn't touch them so I can convince myself it's ok?
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Post by anxiousmom on Apr 15, 2016 18:07:57 GMT
I just... don't get the south. It isn't just the south, although I will give you that it is more prominent in the south. But even the states where it is legal, there are significant numbers of counties that banned corporal punishment. Like everything else though, I wouldn't paint all the south with the same brush. I was born in the 'south' to parents that were born in the 'south' who had parents that were born in the 'south' (and so on for multiple generations) and I grew up in a non-spanking household. My children were not spanked. They did not go to a school that paddled children nor would I have ever allowed it. Not all southerns are backward rednecks who beat their children.
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Post by JustCallMeMommy on Apr 15, 2016 18:10:31 GMT
Our school district asks parents to sign each year to allow or disallow paddling. If you choose disallow, you agree to come get your child immediately if there is a situation where it would have been used. However, in all of my discussions with Alison's peers and their families, we are not aware of any paddling in our schools....but that may just mean she hangs out with kids who aren't being paddled. For the record, I choose disallow, with the caveat that if I ever had to come get her for behavior (extremely unlikely, frankly), she might have preferred the school's swift punishment to the consequences at home.
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Deleted
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Sept 30, 2024 12:19:35 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2016 18:27:24 GMT
I just... don't get the south. It isn't just the south, although I will give you that it is more prominent in the south. But even the states where it is legal, there are significant numbers of counties that banned corporal punishment. Like everything else though, I wouldn't paint all the south with the same brush. I was born in the 'south' to parents that were born in the 'south' who had parents that were born in the 'south' (and so on for multiple generations) and I grew up in a non-spanking household. My children were not spanked. They did not go to a school that paddled children nor would I have ever allowed it. Not all southerns are backward rednecks who beat their children. Of course I know that not all southerners are backward rednecks and that there are backward rednecks in other parts of the country. But you can't deny there is a pattern with things like this, the discriminatory laws that have recently been enacted, and so on... there is mindset that is more common/accepted in the south than in most of the rest of the country. It's disturbing. It doesn't mean everyone in the south thinks that way and the rest of the country doesn't think that way But on the whole, the "typical" southern perspective is difficult for many people in other parts of the country to comprehend.
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Post by supersoda on Apr 15, 2016 18:29:42 GMT
WTF? I don't want my children to fear me. I don't want my children to behave out of fear. I don't want them to automatically be obedient without questioning why they are doing so. Just the word obedient makes me twitchy. What I want is for my children to develop their own moral compass. To internalize why it is better to be good and kind and respectful of others than not. To understand the value of an education, and why school is important. To develop a work ethic and understand why it is necessary. So far, my kids have turned out pretty great. Certainly not perfect, and they've made mistakes and needed correction along the way, but I can't even imagine how hitting them or making them fear me is an answer.
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Post by Delta Dawn on Apr 15, 2016 18:35:43 GMT
If someone dared touch my child there would be 2 other episodes of violence. Me hitting them with something and then hitting the ground. No one disciplined my son other than me. (Kind of interesting as I haven't had to discipline him other than getting mad at him nor has a school ever in his existence. Never detention, sent to the office, suspension, fighting, nothing. Interesting...maybe he is just a good kid).
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peabay
Prolific Pea
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Jun 25, 2014 19:50:41 GMT
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Post by peabay on Apr 15, 2016 19:24:32 GMT
I grew up on Long Island and was spanked in kindergarten by my teacher, ironically named Mrs. Haight.
Why did I get spanked? I lifted my head up at nap time.
Yeah - that makes sense.
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Deleted
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Sept 30, 2024 12:19:35 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2016 19:56:21 GMT
I've never understood why people engage on this topic. It's so useless.
People make up their own minds and usually have strong opinions based on their experiences and their own children...and maybe twenty hundred other factors. It's the ultimate in "your mileage may vary".
Might as well talk about abortion.
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tuesdaysgone
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Jun 26, 2014 18:26:03 GMT
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Post by tuesdaysgone on Apr 15, 2016 20:16:06 GMT
I've been in public education in Georgia for 20 years and have never heard of any type of physical punishment. Who knew? Back in the 70s I was paddled at school (4th grade)but I don't remember being bothered by it too much. I was also spanked as a child, but very infrequently. Of course I was also raised in a safe and happy home and never felt frightened or abused. My mom says that a small spanking worked very effectively on me while my sister was never spanked in her life.
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raindancer
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Jun 26, 2014 20:10:29 GMT
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Post by raindancer on Apr 15, 2016 20:57:49 GMT
I'm sorry but I must comment and go ahead and flame away at me. I agree with it! When I was a kid, we knew if we did something to deserve "swats" that we would get it. That thought really made us behave! The kids today don't have that consequence to keep them in line. That's why we have so many issues with kids misbehaving! You couldn't pay me to be a teacher today with the way kids behave and disrespect them. Oddly enough, your comment is proven to be false. There is consistent research that hitting a child is of no benefit other than to instill fear, and that a child who is not cowed does not behave better for being beaten. What an absurd claim. There are plenty of consequences for children that keep them in line. Also an absurd claim. I don't beat my kids with a wooden plank, but they still somehow manage to behave at school. That child clearly needs a lot of care and professional help, and probably a lot less hitting in his life to help him be successful and a decent member of society in the future.
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raindancer
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Post by raindancer on Apr 15, 2016 20:59:53 GMT
There is a difference between paddling and abuse. I do not agree when it turns abusive. I grew up in the 70-80's. I was never paddled because I was afraid of it. Therefore, I behaved. My parents spanked me when I acted up at home. It made me behave also. Do I consider myself abused? No. Am I a bully and abusive to my own children? No. Do they know that they will get the paddle if the misbehave? Yes. Do my kids have problem behaviors or menaces to society? NO! It does not always lead to a cycle of abuse. I actually have rarely laid a hand on my kids for punishment. Can't even remember the last time I had to. They are good, respectful, intelligent young adults now. I believe that parents should be the one to make kids respectful and obedient. In today's world, that just doesn't happen anymore. So I believe the school's should be able to paddle. If they don't make the kids mind, who will? The police, that's who. Hitting a child with a piece of wood is abuse. And your anecdotal evidence doesn't equate to actual evidence. You know that right?
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Post by birukitty on Apr 15, 2016 21:30:38 GMT
I went to 1st grade in 1966 in Mississippi, I think 2nd grade there too, and then moved to Maryland in 1968. I do remember spanking being legal and being used in the elementary schools. I remember a specific paddle that had holes bored into it-the teacher explained it hurt more because the air moved through it and it came down faster. I never got spanked in school. I was a ruler follower.
At home back then my Dad did spank us and I remember before each spanking he always said, "This is going to hurt me more than it hurts you." which I thought was crazy until I grew up and understood what he meant. Now when I tell him that he tells me he's so ashamed he ever spanked us to begin with, but back then that was what parents were taught to do to discipline their children. He didn't know any other way. I told him, "it's okay, please don't feel bad about it. We turned out fine, and you were doing what you felt was right".
As for my son, well he was born in 1989. Super Nanny, Jo Frost wasn't around then but I love her methods. I wish she was. Time outs were around and I read a lot of books about discipline, and used those. I've never spanked or hit my son, not once. I do believe to get respect you must earn it. You have to teach your children respect. There are kind and thoughtful ways to teach children how to behave and you should never do anything in a fit of anger.
Debbie in MD.
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Post by digirlwiz on Apr 15, 2016 22:19:42 GMT
I was appalled and started to shake seeing the video. NOT ok to hit, paddle, strike a child- no matter what he did- yes- he needed to be disciplined but violence with violence- no way. I am also upset that the mother videoed it-- I know she was worried about jail but never would I allow anyone to hit a child and watch it happen. My mother's 2 mantras: This is a non violent home and People are for loving, not hitting. We were not hit- and all 4 of us came out just fine. I am grateful I had my mother and father as parents-I know not everyone is as lucky as I was. Agree with Debbie in MD- There are kind and thoughtful ways to teach children how to behave and you should never do anything in a fit of anger.
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AmeliaBloomer
Drama Llama
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Apr 15, 2016 22:29:05 GMT
-I oppose corporal punishment. -I have never hit my kids. -I grew up in the 1960s and 1970s and was hit regularly by my parents, as were many/most of my friends. I hated it. -In elementary school, I was educated by nuns who paddled us. At an all-boys high school, my brothers were educated by priests who got much rougher. Remember: I do not condone hitting and see no merit. That said, I'm very uncomfortable with the statements below that are offered as fact - and, honestly, I'm struggling to word my objection without rancor. Neither of these conclusions describes me or - as far as I know - my childhood peers. We neither grew up to act violently nor did/do we believe violence is okay to get our way. Many of us made very purposeful choices about our own parenting. I understand - and appreciate - the need to decry the practice and defend the victims, but as a victim myself, please be careful when you describe the experiences - worse, tendencies - of others. Would these same statements be made so casually about abused women? Violence inflicted on children only causes them to act violently later on (or immediately) All hitting a kid does is teach them that violence is okay if you want to get your way.
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suzastampin
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Jun 28, 2014 14:32:59 GMT
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Post by suzastampin on Apr 15, 2016 22:51:33 GMT
I just saw this. That poor little guy asking for his mama to help. I'm not opposed to a good swat on a rare occasion, but nobody else better swat my kid or they will be hearing from me. Corporal punishment does not belong in school.
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Post by Lexica on Apr 15, 2016 22:55:33 GMT
I had no idea that it was legal in some states! I cannot imagine parents being okay with that today.
It was legal here in California when I was in school. (It was finally banned in 1986) I remember my boyfriend getting paddled by the Dean of Boys for some infraction or another. He had to go into the office after school to receive his swats, and I waited outside for him because we walked home together. He came out with his face so red and fighting back the tears. He was not the type to show emotion over pain, especially in front of me, so I knew it had to have been torture for him. The Dean of Boys even bragged about drilling holes in his paddle to reduce the air resistance. He wanted to be able to hit these kids with all the strength he could muster. Thank goodness it was illegal by the time my son was in school.
Girls were not hit, to my knowledge, but I remember seeing some having to sweep the blacktop with a toothbrush on their hands and knees. My mother went to school when the punishment of choice for girls was "the strap." She still gets angry when she tells the story of getting in trouble for having a piece of gum in her mouth in class. She was brought in front of the class, told to hold her hands out in front of her, wrists facing up with the teacher whipping your wrists with a length of leather. Can you imagine? Mom says it was her birthday when this happened. She always went home for lunch, and when she showed her mother the welts on her hands and wrists, she was allowed to stay home for the rest of the day. My grandmother, angry, went to the school to tell them they could never hit her children again. Unfortunately, they could. It was perfectly legal and encouraged to beat good manners into children.
In California now, a teacher can be charged with child abuse for hitting a child.
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Post by scrapmaven on Apr 15, 2016 22:56:24 GMT
I have a very open relationship w/my children. I never once touched them in anger or used physical violence as punishment and that includes spanking. They were taught to love me and to respect me, but never to fear me. The consequence of that is that I have well-behaved, normal teenagers (well, one young adult) who come to me when they've done something wrong and tell me about it. Teaching my children to live in fear is the exact opposite of my parenting philosophy. This home is a safe home where we trust mom and dad to take care of us and love us and we all respect eachother. I would never want my children to grow up fearful of me. How would that have fostered the open relationship that we have now that they're older?
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Post by epeanymous on Apr 15, 2016 23:10:46 GMT
Yeah, I lived in SC for five years, but the school my kids would have attended didn't use corporal punishment. I think I probably would have sent my kids to a private school that didn't use corporal punishment if the public school used it, even if there was an opt-out for parents.
I can vouch that the parents I knew in the south were more open to spanking and corporal punishment than the parents I have known in the NE or NW.
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Post by anxiousmom on Apr 15, 2016 23:20:21 GMT
Of course I know that not all southerners are backward rednecks and that there are backward rednecks in other parts of the country. But you can't deny there is a pattern with things like this, the discriminatory laws that have recently been enacted, and so on... there is mindset that is more common/accepted in the south than in most of the rest of the country. It's disturbing. It doesn't mean everyone in the south thinks that way and the rest of the country doesn't think that way But on the whole, the "typical" southern perspective is difficult for many people in other parts of the country to comprehend. I struggle with this. And I have been trying to think of a way to answer this and I am finding that I don't have the words. I guess the bottom line for me would be to ask nicely to please consider replacing "typical southern perspective" with "typical African American perspective" or "typical Muslim perspective" or even "typical New Yorker perspective" or any other type of regional or geographical or racial qualifier and then think about how it might effect/affect the person who is of that qualifier.
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Post by gracieplusthree on Apr 16, 2016 0:10:48 GMT
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Post by alexa11 on Apr 16, 2016 3:45:23 GMT
Aside from the talk of paddling being allowed--WTH with the mother sitting there filming while her child is begging and crying? I find a problem with her--seems she is just intent on getting a viral video instead of getting involved as a parent. Several different issues in this story for me. Didn't she sign the waiver to ALLOW him to be punished? Not going to argue whether the law is appropriate or not, it is law. The mother could have opted out. IMO, she's just trying to get attention. She should be focusing on disciplining her own child at home. Spitting- OMG- my girls wouldn't have sat down for a week if they did that at school. And, yes- I live in the South. Taught middle school in the South. And had to be a witness for assistant principals while they paddled students many times.
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Post by myshelly on Apr 16, 2016 3:51:53 GMT
Aside from the talk of paddling being allowed--WTH with the mother sitting there filming while her child is begging and crying? I find a problem with her--seems she is just intent on getting a viral video instead of getting involved as a parent. Several different issues in this story for me. Didn't she sign the waiver to ALLOW him to be punished? Not going to argue whether the law is appropriate or not, it is law. The mother could have opted out. IMO, she's just trying to get attention. She should be focusing on disciplining her own child at home. Spitting- OMG- my girls wouldn't have sat down for a week if they did that at school. And, yes- I live in the South. Taught middle school in the South. And had to be a witness for assistant principals while they paddled students many times. It is my understanding that no, she did not sign the waiver at the beginning of the school year. The principal called her and told her to come up to school. Once she got there the principal said you have to either sign this waiver allowing us to spank him or he will be expelled (in which case she would go to jail for truancy). She says she only signed the waiver because she felt her choice was sign or jail.
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