|
Post by Merge on Apr 16, 2016 11:22:25 GMT
I'm curious, because it seems we have a fair number of discipline experts on the other thread ... maybe they can help me out. (Disclaimer: I do not support corporal punishment in schools for liability reasons and would never put my hands on a child, so you can save your outrage.)
Setting aside for a moment the story about the five year old, what DO you suggest should be done with kids in school who are not deterred from their behavior by any positive or non-physical punitive measure? I'm talking about kids who are in control of their behavior - not those with diagnosed issues - and simply don't care, or who actually enjoy being disruptive and causing chaos.
I'd love suggestions that can be implemented directly in the classroom. Assume that the teacher is already doing her best to build positive relationships with students, to be understanding and to give kind, positive re-direction, and to design lessons and experiences that are engaging and age-appropriate. Assume that the teacher is also following the district's code of conduct for consequences when positive methods fail. And assume that none of this changes the behavior.
While I agree that padding will probably not work in most cases, I also know that for some of my students, the only thing that corrects the behavior is when I get mom on the phone, and mom promises a "whooping" when the kid gets home if the behavior doesn't change immediately. The kids understand from mom that this is not an idle threat, and frequently they fix the problem. But since a fair number of parents don't answer the phone when we call, or just say they'll "talk to" the child, and nothing changes ... I need some suggestions.
Keep in mind that I work with middle school students. In most cases, they are hostile toward things like behavior charts that worked well in elementary school. There are also only so many privileges you can take away from them before you've got a kid with nothing left to lose. The level of reward that I can offer is also not that interesting to the kids with the worst behavior ... disrupting class is way more fun for them than a getting a Starburst or a "take my shoes off in class" ticket. There's also a point where bribery like that just stops working ... the kid will act up until you get out the bribes, and then show five minutes of appropriate behavior to earn the bribe, then go immediately back to the way he was acting before.
So I would really like to know from those who asserted their feelings about corporal punishment so strongly: what specific suggestions can you give me?
|
|
|
Post by peasapie on Apr 16, 2016 11:52:35 GMT
I didn't post on the other thread. I'm a former teacher, and I totally get what you are saying here. Certain kids only respond when they know you are in touch with their parents.
Can you give a reward to the rest of the class (like free time on the computer or something at the end of each class) and withhold it from the misbehavers? The negative behavior is obviously a way to get attention, and being left out of the fun is a sucky kind of attention they might not like.
It's so hard when parents don't back teachers up with consequences at home.
|
|
eleezybeth
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,784
Jun 28, 2014 20:42:01 GMT
|
Post by eleezybeth on Apr 16, 2016 12:02:25 GMT
I'm talking about kids who are in control of their behavior - not those with diagnosed issues - and simply don't care, or who actually enjoy being disruptive and causing chaos. I hear your point, but I don't believe this ^^ is as simple as you make it seem. They are children. They aren't in control of who they are. They are learning to control that and have learned that their behavior is either rewarding or not. Many children are just simply not taught this! Or their behavior is safety or taught as a means to manliness or a means to control. They might not be controlling YOU but they are controlling their surroundings. Many people say "s/he is almost 18! He needs to act like an adult!" with all the outrage of "should be" but in reality, they AREN'T adults. Sure, they can go off to war- but that is a legal issue NOT a developmental one. I'm not a disciplinarian expert nor did I post on the other thread, but human behavior is my area of expertise. When we stop to look at the big picture how to help children LEARN to control themselves can be easier. As with the case down south, my first reaction was the one who needed the spanking wasn't the one being hit.
|
|
|
Post by Lindarina on Apr 16, 2016 12:03:19 GMT
I work at a small school where the principal is very involved with helping the teachers and students correct disrupted behaviour. That helps a lot.
If you disrupt class, ignore the teachers intructions (after a certain amount of warnings), use unwanted language towards the teacher or fellow students you quickly find youself taken out of the classroom. Misbehaving is'nt fun when your audience is gone and you find yourself working alone in the office while the principal is phoning your mother.
It doesn't solve every problem, but it helps. The students know the consequense and usually only need a warning to calm down. That makes it easier to break the negative cycle and actually build a more positive relation with them.
|
|
|
Post by monklady123 on Apr 16, 2016 12:14:10 GMT
I'm just a substitute teacher so I have no idea, but I'll look forward to replies here. I sub in elementary only and some of these kids are going to make the lives of you middle school teachers miserable when they get there. There's one boy in 3rd grade who is absolutely awful. And worse for the teacher, he's not pulled out for anything. (this school pulls kids for a 2-hour block of language arts). He's smart and has no diagnosed learning disabilities that would qualify him for pull-out. He is totally defiant, in a fortunately non-physical way. I subbed in that class the other day and the math lesson involved measuring things with rulers. Some kids didn't have a ruler but the teacher had left a bunch of them -- which I had right in my hand and had just announced that I'd be passing out the rulers. This boy gets up and went over to the teacher's desk and started taking her ruler. This is April. Since September she has been saying "Bobby [not real name] do not touch anything on my desk." and "Bobby, do not open my desk drawers." and "Bobby do not take ANYTHING off of my desk." etc. So I say "Bobby, do not use Mrs. M's ruler, I have one here for you." He replies with "Oh she lets me use hers." um... No she does not. I said "No she does not, please put that ruler back." He walked back to his desk with the teacher's ruler. I had to follow him and ask three times before he gave it back, still saying "oh she lets me." As part of his behavior plan they have a short list of main things to work on -- not wanting to have an overwhelmingly large list so they just focused on a few key things. One of those is "Do not touch or take things off of Mrs. M's desk." In that class I lose track of the times I have to say "Bobby, sit down." and "Bobby do NOT poke other kids with your pencil." and "Bobby sit down." and "Bobby stop distracting her and do your work." and "BOBBY SIT DOWN!" And I don't even care if he were to sit on the floor to do his work. If kids are working I really don't care where they are, and this teacher is the same. So it's not like we're trying to force this wiggly boy to sit in a chair all day. He just looks you straight in the face and does exactly what you've just told him not to do. He is destined for juvenile court one day. Very sad. And even a trip to the principal's office doesn't deter him. Not one bit. She's yells, talks, threatens, uses everything in her arsenal and he just stares at her, says he's sorry, then goes back and does it again ten minutes after he's back in class. I have no idea what the answer is. But what I do know is that teachers are saints! omg... At least after a rough day with Bobby I can say "okay, no subbing tomorrow, I need to recover." But that teacher has to go back the next day, and the next, and get everyone ready for the state tests, and deal with the rest of the class, and all the paperwork, and etc.
|
|
|
Post by monklady123 on Apr 16, 2016 12:27:50 GMT
I'm talking about kids who are in control of their behavior - not those with diagnosed issues - and simply don't care, or who actually enjoy being disruptive and causing chaos. I hear your point, but I don't believe this ^^ is as simple as you make it seem. They are children. They aren't in control of who they are. They are learning to control that and have learned that their behavior is either rewarding or not. Many children are just simply not taught this! Or their behavior is safety or taught as a means to manliness or a means to control. They might not be controlling YOU but they are controlling their surroundings. Many people say "s/he is almost 18! He needs to act like an adult!" with all the outrage of "should be" but in reality, they AREN'T adults. Sure, they can go off to war- but that is a legal issue NOT a developmental one. I'm not a disciplinarian expert nor did I post on the other thread, but human behavior is my area of expertise. When we stop to look at the big picture how to help children LEARN to control themselves can be easier. As with the case down south, my first reaction was the one who needed the spanking wasn't the one being hit. But how do you suggest we DO this? By "we" I mean teachers, although as I said I'm just a substitute. Every grade of elementary school has assessments they have to do. Third grade (the grade that my "Bobby" is in, in my previous reply) is when they have their first state-mandated standardized tests. Each grade has kids at different levels for each subject. So math groups will be different from language arts groups, which require "differentiated learning plans" (required by the county). Then there are the IEPs (more paperwork), and the second-language kids (we have quite a few), and the kids attached to the nearby military base and who have just transferred from Texas where they learned Texas history -- but oh yeah, this is Virginia so quick teacher, get that kid up to speed on Virginia history so he/she can pass this test. Then add in all the wacky parents -- you know... "my child was upset the other day because he didn't get pizza for lunch." So, the teachers have to deal with all that, and manage somehow to teach these kids all their subjects. So how do they also deal with "Bobby" and all the others like him? Bobby's teacher has been teaching for a lot of years and has seen it all. She says this is the worst year she's ever had, and she's at her wit's end with this kid. I see it in many other classes also. And it's all experienced teachers who are saying this because this principal is nice to her first-year teachers and tries to give them a nice class for their first year. The only thing I know for sure is that I could never be a regular teacher. No way.
|
|
caro
Drama Llama
Refupea 1130
Posts: 5,222
Jun 26, 2014 14:10:36 GMT
|
Post by caro on Apr 16, 2016 12:53:11 GMT
And what is even more sad......this behavior starts so much younger. I teach young three year olds. We see this every day. I have 3 "Bobby's" in my class at three years old. Three's are a tricky bunch with their impulsivity and learning to control it but what bothers me the most are the parents who seem so clueless.
My co-teacher and I said just yesterday how we would like to be a fly on the wall at some of these homes to see how parents manage the behavior we see. Or don't manage is probably more like it.
I don't envy the public school teacher. Hardest job ever.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Sept 30, 2024 14:19:53 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2016 12:55:15 GMT
Monklady123, when "Bobby" has to go to the principal's office, what does the principal do besides yell and threaten? If he(she?)does nothing else, and all Bobby has to do is say he's sorry, he gets to go back to class, I can see where Bobby is learning that going to the principal's office means little. I'm not saying principal needs to do anything else, but instead of sending him back to class, Bobby can just stay in principal's office until it's time to go home. Have him do his work there or even just sit there. Each and every time he acts up. No fun for Bobby. No fun for principal either, but he may only have to do this a few times. Hopefully.
|
|
AnotherPea
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,969
Jan 4, 2015 1:47:52 GMT
|
Post by AnotherPea on Apr 16, 2016 13:03:16 GMT
And then they get to high school where the behavior, but not the consequences, gets worse. Now you have students intimidating teachers physically and getting three days of suspension. IF you have a decent administrator.
One of the youth pastors at my church tells a story frequently. When he was a teen he was a punk. A-hole all the way. He had the classic sob story - dad left mom for a younger woman and started a second family. Single mom didn't have enough money to cover the bills. Single mom worked a lot so he got away with murder. He terrorized two female teachers. He didn't mess with his male teachers. One female teacher was young and new and he made inappropriate comments a lot. Would stare her down or look her up and down when she was trying to teach. The other female teacher was about his mother's age and he would cough out "bitch" throughout her lectures. Detentions and suspensions didn't work. One day, while walking through the hall during class change, he catcalled to/at the younger teacher. A male teacher heard it and slammed the boy up against the lockers. The teacher made it very clear that his disrespect would stop immediately. And it did. Not just his actions, but his whole attitude shifted. At first he changed out of fear. He didn't want to face that male teacher again. Then he realized why he was wrong and started to behave because it was the right thing to do. He didn't give up his drugs and partying, but he did start treating his teachers properly. His mother is very involved in our church and she always says she is thankful for the teacher that stepped in and set her son straight.
When I was in elementary school I had a boy terrorize me for weeks. He would do it in class, on the playground and on the bus. Finally my teacher was able to witness some of it and she paddled him in class (rulers to the hand). That boy was good as gold to me from that point on. I even got a nice apology letter out of it. We ended up dating in high school!
|
|
AnotherPea
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,969
Jan 4, 2015 1:47:52 GMT
|
Post by AnotherPea on Apr 16, 2016 13:09:14 GMT
Monklady123, when "Bobby" has to go to the principal's office, what does the principal do besides yell and threaten? If he(she?)does nothing else, and all Bobby has to do is say he's sorry, he gets to go back to class, I can see where Bobby is learning that going to the principal's office means little. I'm not saying principal needs to do anything else, but instead of sending him back to class, Bobby can just stay in principal's office until it's time to go home. Have him do his work there or even just sit there. Each and every time he acts up. No fun for Bobby. No fun for principal either, but he may only have to do this a few times. Hopefully. Good administration and tough, consistent consequences are key. During my third year of teaching I was on hall duty and a 15 year old comes down the hall wearing a red bandanna. Not allowed in school, and he knew it. I told him to take it off. I was polite. He replied with "F--- you." He refuses to do as told and continues cussing at me as he walks down the hallway. I follow him into his class where his teacher tells me his name. I call for an administrator, kid bows up to me and tells me to put the f-ing phone down NOW. I call for a cop. Cop comes, escorts the kid to one of the principals. I tell the cop I'll be there in a minute to write the referral. I get to the office and the kid has his feet up on the principal's desk, sucking on a lollipop she had given him. Bandanna still on his head. @@
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Sept 30, 2024 14:19:53 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2016 13:13:27 GMT
Monklady123, when "Bobby" has to go to the principal's office, what does the principal do besides yell and threaten? If he(she?)does nothing else, and all Bobby has to do is say he's sorry, he gets to go back to class, I can see where Bobby is learning that going to the principal's office means little. I'm not saying principal needs to do anything else, but instead of sending him back to class, Bobby can just stay in principal's office until it's time to go home. Have him do his work there or even just sit there. Each and every time he acts up. No fun for Bobby. No fun for principal either, but he may only have to do this a few times. Hopefully. Good administration and tough, consistent consequences are key. During my third year of teaching I was on hall duty and a 15 year old comes down the hall wearing a red bandanna. Not allowed in school, and he knew it. I told him to take it off. I was polite. He replied with "F--- you." He refuses to do as told and continues cussing at me as he walks down the hallway. I follow him into his class where his teacher tells me his name. I call for an administrator, kid bows up to me and tells me to put the f-ing phone down NOW. I call for a cop. Cop comes, escorts the kid to one of the principals. I tell the cop I'll be there in a minute to write the referral. I get to the office and the kid has his feet up on the principal's desk, sucking on a lollipop she had given him. Bandanna still on his head. @@ OMG! Admin like that needs to be let go! No wonder that kid does what he wants to. You're right, consistency and good admin are needed. Unfortunately, the good admin part is sometimes impossible to get.
|
|
Country Ham
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,314
Jun 25, 2014 19:32:08 GMT
|
Post by Country Ham on Apr 16, 2016 13:18:15 GMT
She says this is the worst year she's ever had, and she's at her wit's end with this kid. The only thing I know for sure is that I could never be a regular teacher. No way. Our school has a discipline chart. All of these things are not big things but they are "things" nevertheless. Each of these individual episodes would warrant a "red" flag (after a warning), after 3 red flags you get a black. Collect 3 black and it's ISS for a day. I actually think it sometimes takes too long to collect enough black flags for an ISS day. 3rd graders do get ISS in our schools. One of the biggest things I noticed as a parent. The first half of the school year our teachers really follow their discipline plan, rewards plan.. you know those stickers/flags etc. I notice that by after Christmas it starts to dwindle. Now no kids seem to get green, yellow, purple etc.. Not sure if they are in end of the year survival mode, or if they just use these things the first of the year as a way to categorize/learn about the behavior of their the students. ETA our school has corporal punishment but by the time they get parental permission etc it's usually a couple of days after the incident and it's in the principals office not classroom. I personally have not given the school permission to paddle mine. I believe in corporal punishment but just from parents.
|
|
eleezybeth
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,784
Jun 28, 2014 20:42:01 GMT
|
Post by eleezybeth on Apr 16, 2016 13:24:07 GMT
I hear your point, but I don't believe this ^^ is as simple as you make it seem. They are children. They aren't in control of who they are. They are learning to control that and have learned that their behavior is either rewarding or not. Many children are just simply not taught this! Or their behavior is safety or taught as a means to manliness or a means to control. They might not be controlling YOU but they are controlling their surroundings. Many people say "s/he is almost 18! He needs to act like an adult!" with all the outrage of "should be" but in reality, they AREN'T adults. Sure, they can go off to war- but that is a legal issue NOT a developmental one. I'm not a disciplinarian expert nor did I post on the other thread, but human behavior is my area of expertise. When we stop to look at the big picture how to help children LEARN to control themselves can be easier. As with the case down south, my first reaction was the one who needed the spanking wasn't the one being hit. But how do you suggest we DO this? By "we" I mean teachers, although as I said I'm just a substitute. Every grade of elementary school has assessments they have to do. Third grade (the grade that my "Bobby" is in, in my previous reply) is when they have their first state-mandated standardized tests. Each grade has kids at different levels for each subject. So math groups will be different from language arts groups, which require "differentiated learning plans" (required by the county). Then there are the IEPs (more paperwork), and the second-language kids (we have quite a few), and the kids attached to the nearby military base and who have just transferred from Texas where they learned Texas history -- but oh yeah, this is Virginia so quick teacher, get that kid up to speed on Virginia history so he/she can pass this test. Then add in all the wacky parents -- you know... "my child was upset the other day because he didn't get pizza for lunch." So, the teachers have to deal with all that, and manage somehow to teach these kids all their subjects. So how do they also deal with "Bobby" and all the others like him? Bobby's teacher has been teaching for a lot of years and has seen it all. She says this is the worst year she's ever had, and she's at her wit's end with this kid. I see it in many other classes also. And it's all experienced teachers who are saying this because this principal is nice to her first-year teachers and tries to give them a nice class for their first year. The only thing I know for sure is that I could never be a regular teacher. No way. LOL! That starts a whole 'nother soap box for me. Yes... how DO you do it? With no funding, with unsupportive leadership from the classroom to the state? And oh by the way, when you have to focus on your Bobby all the other kids lose? Yep- that is the big picture too. This is bigger than you, your school, your principal, etc. It is a community, it is a collective effort. It takes ALL of us to be engaged at a level to intervene. But where? My favorite example is a bit economical but it works. Someone complains about trash on the ground. They say, "Okay, fine, I'll buy the garbage can myself." But, then what? The trash can is full but there is no funding for anybody to dump it so it over flows and the trash is on the ground again. Someone says, "Okay fine. I'll dump the can." But where? There is no dumpster. So where do you put it? Finally, you realize that it is easier for the trash to overflow and overlook it. We have to somehow stop fighting about the crap that doesn't matter and have the wisdom to know what that is, be willing to learn from others and actually make change that will impact long term.
|
|
|
Post by christine58 on Apr 16, 2016 13:44:12 GMT
I have taught special ed--emotionally disturbed/mentally ill kids--from age 6-18 over my 35 years of teaching. I have been in 6:1+1 classes housed in regular schools and am now a large building that has Career and tech students, special ed and alternative ed kids. I have witnessed many things over the years and as I sit here and think about Merge question I have a couple thoughts. I see a serious lack of respect every single day. Kids don't respect themselves nor adults. We've gone from a country where respect was taught and earned to one that society feeds on the lack of respect. Not sure how to change that when we have all seen the disrespect on a daily basis. We have kids who don't value themselves because no one in their life values them. Kindness barely exists. Back to Merge I think that we have administrators that are assholes. The kid in someone's post who had a lollypop---we call those kind of admins "The milk and cookie" person. If we have/had good solid leadership, nothing else matters because every thing else will fall into place. Consequences mean nothing without the back up. I wish I had the answer. I am retiring next year because this isn't fun anymore.
|
|
|
Post by monklady123 on Apr 16, 2016 13:47:05 GMT
Monklady123, when "Bobby" has to go to the principal's office, what does the principal do besides yell and threaten? If he(she?)does nothing else, and all Bobby has to do is say he's sorry, he gets to go back to class, I can see where Bobby is learning that going to the principal's office means little. I'm not saying principal needs to do anything else, but instead of sending him back to class, Bobby can just stay in principal's office until it's time to go home. Have him do his work there or even just sit there. Each and every time he acts up. No fun for Bobby. No fun for principal either, but he may only have to do this a few times. Hopefully. Well, you missed the part where I said she talks to him also, in addition to yelling and threatening. And he does spend hours in her office. And time with the counselor. And listening to the principal talk to mom on the phone. And everything else they can think of. And around here the only way to get a kid out of a school and into a special program is if that kid is violent. This kid isn't so.... And he's smart. And he can be very personable. My son is home from Georgia for a few weeks so he went down to visit the other day, to see a few teachers who are still there from when he was, including this 3rd grade teacher. "Bobby" came right up to him, shook his hand, said he was glad to meet him because "your mom is our substitute". lol. I don't know... I just want to shake him and say "WAKE UP KID! You're smart and could do so many things..." eta: Totally off-topic -- Jigglypuff was always my favorite Pokemon and I can still hear that song in my head. lol Jigglypuff's song -- Your earworm for the day. You're welcome.
|
|
TankTop
Pearl Clutcher
Refupea #1,871
Posts: 4,828
Location: On the couch...
Jun 28, 2014 1:52:46 GMT
|
Post by TankTop on Apr 16, 2016 13:55:12 GMT
As a teacher I would like to add to the discussion this food for thought...
Regardless or IEP, Gen Ed, or 504 status we are allowing our children to sit in classrooms each and every single day with behaviors that we as adults would never tolerate in the workplace.
From the moment a child enters kindergarten they are in an environment year after year where things happen daily that any parent would be shocked to hear are happening. I am constantly amazed by how little the parents of my students know. Kids don't go home and talk.
Fast forward to junior high and high school. Bomb threats, violent fights, weapons at school... After one of these incidents kids come out of the woodwork to tell the stories of things that have happened to lead to this newest news worthy incident. The community cries out wanting to know why nobody said anything.
Why? Because we have CONDITIONED ENTIRE GENERATIONS TO ACCEPT THE UNACCEPTABLE.
Think about it. The ramifications of this will continue until parents stand with teachers and say enough is enough.
|
|
|
Post by Zee on Apr 16, 2016 14:08:03 GMT
I want to beat Bobby with the teacher's ruler. I'm not cut out for teaching.
|
|
|
Post by christine58 on Apr 16, 2016 14:10:32 GMT
From the moment a child enters kindergarten they are in an environment year after year where things happen daily that any parent would be shocked to hear are happening. I am constantly amazed by how little the parents of my students know. Kids don't go home and talk. The ONLY way a very disruptive violent child got removed--finally---from my room was when the other parents said "Enough"....
|
|
Judy26
Pearl Clutcher
MOTFY Bitchy Nursemaid
Posts: 2,970
Location: NW PA
Jun 25, 2014 23:50:38 GMT
|
Post by Judy26 on Apr 16, 2016 14:25:47 GMT
And this is why after 35 years in education I am retiring in 30 days. 98% of my students are amazing. But the 5 students who do everything they can to be rude and disruptive and don't care about consequences have done me in.
|
|
|
Post by peasapie on Apr 16, 2016 14:29:45 GMT
I'm talking about kids who are in control of their behavior - not those with diagnosed issues - and simply don't care, or who actually enjoy being disruptive and causing chaos. I hear your point, but I don't believe this ^^ is as simple as you make it seem. They are children. They aren't in control of who they are. They are learning to control that and have learned that their behavior is either rewarding or not. Many children are just simply not taught this! Or their behavior is safety or taught as a means to manliness or a means to control. They might not be controlling YOU but they are controlling their surroundings. Many people say "s/he is almost 18! He needs to act like an adult!" with all the outrage of "should be" but in reality, they AREN'T adults. Sure, they can go off to war- but that is a legal issue NOT a developmental one. I'm not a disciplinarian expert nor did I post on the other thread, but human behavior is my area of expertise. When we stop to look at the big picture how to help children LEARN to control themselves can be easier. As with the case down south, my first reaction was the one who needed the spanking wasn't the one being hit. So what is your suggestion for what a teacher should do.
|
|
|
Post by peasapie on Apr 16, 2016 14:35:21 GMT
I work at a small school where the principal is very involved with helping the teachers and students correct disrupted behaviour. That helps a lot. If you disrupt class, ignore the teachers intructions (after a certain amount of warnings), use unwanted language towards the teacher or fellow students you quickly find youself taken out of the classroom. Misbehaving is'nt fun when your audience is gone and you find yourself working alone in the office while the principal is phoning your mother. It doesn't solve every problem, but it helps. The students know the consequense and usually only need a warning to calm down. That makes it easier to break the negative cycle and actually build a more positive relation with them. This is a great idea. And I def think taking away the "performing for the crowd" aspect is important.
|
|
|
Post by crazy4scraps on Apr 16, 2016 14:46:11 GMT
As a teacher I would like to add to the discussion this food for thought... Regardless or IEP, Gen Ed, or 504 status we are allowing our children to sit in classrooms each and every single day with behaviors that we as adults would never tolerate in the workplace. From the moment a child enters kindergarten they are in an environment year after year where things happen daily that any parent would be shocked to hear are happening. I am constantly amazed by how little the parents of my students know. Kids don't go home and talk. Fast forward to junior high and high school. Bomb threats, violent fights, weapons at school... After one of these incidents kids come out of the woodwork to tell the stories of things that have happened to lead to this newest news worthy incident. The community cries out wanting to know why nobody said anything. Why? Because we have CONDITIONED ENTIRE GENERATIONS TO ACCEPT THE UNACCEPTABLE. Think about it. The ramifications of this will continue until parents stand with teachers and say enough is enough. I think you're right for the most part, but my kid DOES come home and talk. And talk, and talk and TALK. We're in a well funded suburban district but stuff still happens. My sister works in a school in another state and she said that some of the things she has personally witnessed with elementary kids would curl a person's hair. She also works in fairly upperclass suburban district, and she says if she was raising young kids today she would homeschool because it's just that bad.
|
|
TankTop
Pearl Clutcher
Refupea #1,871
Posts: 4,828
Location: On the couch...
Jun 28, 2014 1:52:46 GMT
|
Post by TankTop on Apr 16, 2016 14:58:27 GMT
As a teacher I would like to add to the discussion this food for thought... Regardless or IEP, Gen Ed, or 504 status we are allowing our children to sit in classrooms each and every single day with behaviors that we as adults would never tolerate in the workplace. From the moment a child enters kindergarten they are in an environment year after year where things happen daily that any parent would be shocked to hear are happening. I am constantly amazed by how little the parents of my students know. Kids don't go home and talk. Fast forward to junior high and high school. Bomb threats, violent fights, weapons at school... After one of these incidents kids come out of the woodwork to tell the stories of things that have happened to lead to this newest news worthy incident. The community cries out wanting to know why nobody said anything. Why? Because we have CONDITIONED ENTIRE GENERATIONS TO ACCEPT THE UNACCEPTABLE. Think about it. The ramifications of this will continue until parents stand with teachers and say enough is enough. I think you're right for the most part, but my kid DOES come home and talk. And talk, and talk and TALK. We're in a well funded suburban district but stuff still happens. My sister works in a school in another state and she said that some of the things she has personally witnessed with elementary kids would curl a person's hair. She also works in fairly upperclass suburban district, and she says if she was raising young kids today she would homeschool because it's just that bad. I guess I should add that although some kids talk I have found that a lot parents don't report it for fear of getting a well respected teacher in trouble. I have also had parents say they didn't call because they assumed someone else did. As a teacher I BEG you to call each and every time. I NEED you to call.
|
|
TankTop
Pearl Clutcher
Refupea #1,871
Posts: 4,828
Location: On the couch...
Jun 28, 2014 1:52:46 GMT
|
Post by TankTop on Apr 16, 2016 14:58:43 GMT
As a teacher I would like to add to the discussion this food for thought... Regardless or IEP, Gen Ed, or 504 status we are allowing our children to sit in classrooms each and every single day with behaviors that we as adults would never tolerate in the workplace. From the moment a child enters kindergarten they are in an environment year after year where things happen daily that any parent would be shocked to hear are happening. I am constantly amazed by how little the parents of my students know. Kids don't go home and talk. Fast forward to junior high and high school. Bomb threats, violent fights, weapons at school... After one of these incidents kids come out of the woodwork to tell the stories of things that have happened to lead to this newest news worthy incident. The community cries out wanting to know why nobody said anything. Why? Because we have CONDITIONED ENTIRE GENERATIONS TO ACCEPT THE UNACCEPTABLE. Think about it. The ramifications of this will continue until parents stand with teachers and say enough is enough. I think you're right for the most part, but my kid DOES come home and talk. And talk, and talk and TALK. We're in a well funded suburban district but stuff still happens. My sister works in a school in another state and she said that some of the things she has personally witnessed with elementary kids would curl a person's hair. She also works in fairly upperclass suburban district, and she says if she was raising young kids today she would homeschool because it's just that bad. I guess I should add that although some kids talk I have found that a lot parents don't report it for fear of getting a well respected teacher in trouble. I have also had parents say they didn't call because they assumed someone else did. As a teacher I BEG you to call each and every time. I NEED you to call.
|
|
|
Post by myshelly on Apr 16, 2016 15:08:37 GMT
I don't know what the answer is, but I think your OP is proof that corporal punishment doesn't work.
The kids who are threatened with a whooping haven't actually learned to behave. They only behave when they are threatened with more violence. That's not discipline. That's fear.
Spanking/hitting is lazy parenting. It's quickly teaching your kids to fear being hit instead of taking the time and effort to teach them why their behavior isn't acceptable and helping them learn what they should do instead.
|
|
|
Post by ktdoesntscrap on Apr 16, 2016 15:12:19 GMT
I think the problem is bigger than an individual teacher can solve.
Schools that have an administration who have clear and consistent policies, but who also run the school with compassion, and are able to really get to know the students.
Those schools can make a difference.
I believe most kids just need to know someone cares. The more they know that the easier it is to get your desired results.
I taught for 10 years in a failing school district at the worst high school in the district. Guns, knives, assaults drugs you name it we had it on campus.,
We had a crappy administration. It took me about 3 or 4 years. But eventually I became known as one of the teachers who cares. Once I had the reputation, I had little issue with class room behavior. There were those kids who would do anything NOT to have me as a teacher. (because they didn't want to do any work) but there were more who really wanted me to be their teacher.
It was bloody hard work back then, I was young, I easily worked 60 hour weeks, and then I spent every weekend watching whatever sport or event that was going on. I was married to my job. It was hard a hell.
It must be 100x harder today. With all the testing and paper work etc. You can't just be a teacher you have to be a social worker, a counselor, a parent .
I think that we really need to rethink education, it cant' just be about reading, writing, etc. It must be about educating the whole child, and helping them no matter where they are. I worked at a school in London, and the model there was that teachers often taught different levels of the same subject, so you might have the same math teacher for 3 or 4 years, or the same Spanish teacher. I think this helped the students and the teachers, they didn't need to get to know each other, the curriculum seemsed to carry on much less effortlessly than what I had experienced in American schools. The school was big enough if there was a serious compatibility issue with a teacher and student they could be moved to a different section. This would happen at the end of each term, or 3 times a year, it was not a big deal at all.
When I suggested something similar at the Charter School that I help start, you would have thought I was suggesting that all tests be taken while the students were standing on their heads. It was completely incomprehensible to some of the other board members.
I think we know so much today about how the brain works, and how we learn that schools should be available based on a student's learning style not their neighborhood.
I will wrap up my rant to say. I think that kids are inquisitive and want to learn. Kids who act like assholes do so for a reason. If from day one we could focus not on the what he or she did but the WHY, we could reduce discipline problems significantly. But that takes resources, particularly time! What school employee has the time to work with kids and figure out the big stuff?
If we really want change, schools need to be funded better, and we need more staff to help those kids figure out their why.
|
|
|
Post by monklady123 on Apr 16, 2016 15:13:11 GMT
I don't know what the answer is, but I think your OP is proof that corporal punishment doesn't work. The kids who are threatened with a whooping haven't actually learned to behave. They only behave when they are threatened with more violence. That's not discipline. That's fear. Spanking/hitting is lazy parenting. It's quickly teaching your kids to fear being hit instead of taking the time and effort to teach them why their behavior isn't acceptable and helping them learn what they should do instead.This may be true, but it isn't an answer for teachers who wonder what to do in the classroom. It's not the teacher's responsibility to take over parenting. I suspect there really isn't any answer. -- I really am glad my dd changed her mind about being an elementary ed major.
|
|
AnotherPea
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,969
Jan 4, 2015 1:47:52 GMT
|
Post by AnotherPea on Apr 16, 2016 15:18:43 GMT
I'm talking about kids who are in control of their behavior - not those with diagnosed issues - and simply don't care, or who actually enjoy being disruptive and causing chaos. I hear your point, but I don't believe this ^^ is as simple as you make it seem. They are children. They aren't in control of who they are. They are learning to control that and have learned that their behavior is either rewarding or not. Many children are just simply not taught this! Or their behavior is safety or taught as a means to manliness or a means to control. They might not be controlling YOU but they are controlling their surroundings. Many people say "s/he is almost 18! He needs to act like an adult!" with all the outrage of "should be" but in reality, they AREN'T adults. Sure, they can go off to war- but that is a legal issue NOT a developmental one. I'm not a disciplinarian expert nor did I post on the other thread, but human behavior is my area of expertise. When we stop to look at the big picture how to help children LEARN to control themselves can be easier. As with the case down south, my first reaction was the one who needed the spanking wasn't the one being hit. They are children until one of them carjacks your car with your baby in the backseat. Until one grabs your daughter's butt daily and threatens her if she tells. Until one murdersa store clerk to see what it feels like. Until one calls in a bomb threat to the prom you've forked out $$$ for your child to attend. THEN people who use the "just children " line feel differently. All of these things have happened, with students as young as 14 in the district next to mine. I don't care how under developed a teen's brain is perceived to be, there is no excuse for any of those behaviors.
|
|
|
Post by GamGam on Apr 16, 2016 15:33:16 GMT
Reading these responses makes me so sad and worried. I'm a Grandmother, and oh so grateful that my grandchildren are in private schools. But that's not the answer for us, really. We need for children to learn respect, and it should begin in the home. Oppositionally defiant children are going to be miserable and make other who are around them miserable as well. Such behavior is toxic for the classroom.
|
|
|
Post by freecharlie on Apr 16, 2016 15:42:32 GMT
At home, the discipline needs to be consistent and start young.
At school, I think you are screwed due to a principal/district that doesn't support you.
|
|