eleezybeth
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,784
Jun 28, 2014 20:42:01 GMT
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Post by eleezybeth on Apr 16, 2016 15:57:51 GMT
I hear your point, but I don't believe this ^^ is as simple as you make it seem. They are children. They aren't in control of who they are. They are learning to control that and have learned that their behavior is either rewarding or not. Many children are just simply not taught this! Or their behavior is safety or taught as a means to manliness or a means to control. They might not be controlling YOU but they are controlling their surroundings. Many people say "s/he is almost 18! He needs to act like an adult!" with all the outrage of "should be" but in reality, they AREN'T adults. Sure, they can go off to war- but that is a legal issue NOT a developmental one. I'm not a disciplinarian expert nor did I post on the other thread, but human behavior is my area of expertise. When we stop to look at the big picture how to help children LEARN to control themselves can be easier. As with the case down south, my first reaction was the one who needed the spanking wasn't the one being hit. They are children until one of them carjacks your car with your baby in the backseat. Until one grabs your daughter's butt daily and threatens her if she tells. Until one murdersa store clerk to see what it feels like. Until one calls in a bomb threat to the prom you've forked out $$$ for your child to attend. THEN people who use the "just children " line feel differently. All of these things have happened, with students as young as 14 in the district next to mine. I don't care how under developed a teen's brain is perceived to be, there is no excuse for any of those behaviors. Oh you must think I live in la la land. I assure you I don't. You see, I'm the person the court mandates your car jacker talk to after he is arrested. I get to do the full assessment to note that two generations ago when grandpa left and when his mom got pregnant at 15 and he went to live with great aunt who was raising 5 cousins on minimum wage and food stamps.... Going to school wasn't important because learning wasn't nearly as important as eating. Oh and the kids family is called all sorts of names because mom started using drugs. Why? Not sure but probably because it was cheap and could make her money if needed. And because the family was stretched so thin the paranoia of not having the basics boils over into the paranoia that nobody is really safe. And if nobody is really safe then it is all men for themselves. And when the kid gets returned to mom and she can't be bothered to wake the child up to go to school, he is taught it isn't important. And if going to school isn't important then nobody at that school is important. And on and on!!!! You want to fight me for having an opinion and no specific solutions. I beg you to open your mind and see a much, much larger picture. You need awareness, not judgement. We are on one team. To assert that my opinion is invalid is just as dangerous. What you see in education is meerly the tip of the iceberg. When we work in fields that serve communities we have to have a larger view point. Change is NOT happening over night. I'm short my magic wand.... If you truly believe a kid doesn't learn from their environment then what are you doing in education?
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AnotherPea
Pearl Clutcher
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Jan 4, 2015 1:47:52 GMT
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Post by AnotherPea on Apr 16, 2016 16:07:30 GMT
Please don't assume that teachers do not know the history of their students. My point is that so many people are willing to call these students children when it fits their agenda, but not when they are the victims of the students' actions. For every child you talk to that is in a bad situation, there are many, many more in the same situation that do not make horrible choices. And there are plenty of kids that you don't have to talk to because their parents have enough money to buy their kids out of consequences.
OF COURSE kids, adults, everyone, learns from their environments. That doesn't mean they are unable to behave properly in society.
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Post by christine58 on Apr 16, 2016 16:09:15 GMT
Reading these responses makes me so sad and worried. I'm a Grandmother, and oh so grateful that my grandchildren are in private schools. Happens there too...and in Charter schools. ALL THE TIME
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raindancer
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Jun 26, 2014 20:10:29 GMT
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Post by raindancer on Apr 16, 2016 16:10:06 GMT
I'm curious, because it seems we have a fair number of discipline experts on the other thread ... maybe they can help me out. (Disclaimer: I do not support corporal punishment in schools for liability reasons and would never put my hands on a child, so you can save your outrage.) Setting aside for a moment the story about the five year old, what DO you suggest should be done with kids in school who are not deterred from their behavior by any positive or non-physical punitive measure? I'm talking about kids who are in control of their behavior - not those with diagnosed issues - and simply don't care, or who actually enjoy being disruptive and causing chaos. I'd love suggestions that can be implemented directly in the classroom. Assume that the teacher is already doing her best to build positive relationships with students, to be understanding and to give kind, positive re-direction, and to design lessons and experiences that are engaging and age-appropriate. Assume that the teacher is also following the district's code of conduct for consequences when positive methods fail. And assume that none of this changes the behavior. While I agree that padding will probably not work in most cases, I also know that for some of my students, the only thing that corrects the behavior is when I get mom on the phone, and mom promises a "whooping" when the kid gets home if the behavior doesn't change immediately. The kids understand from mom that this is not an idle threat, and frequently they fix the problem. But since a fair number of parents don't answer the phone when we call, or just say they'll "talk to" the child, and nothing changes ... I need some suggestions. Keep in mind that I work with middle school students. In most cases, they are hostile toward things like behavior charts that worked well in elementary school. There are also only so many privileges you can take away from them before you've got a kid with nothing left to lose. The level of reward that I can offer is also not that interesting to the kids with the worst behavior ... disrupting class is way more fun for them than a getting a Starburst or a "take my shoes off in class" ticket. There's also a point where bribery like that just stops working ... the kid will act up until you get out the bribes, and then show five minutes of appropriate behavior to earn the bribe, then go immediately back to the way he was acting before. So I would really like to know from those who asserted their feelings about corporal punishment so strongly: what specific suggestions can you give me? I think that this is an extremely complex and individualistic issue that requires major collaboration from parents, mental health professionals, the teachers and administrative support. Without all of those components you run the very serious risk of failing. There are a lot of misdiagnosed/undiagnosed kids out there. Their backgrounds and home lives are likely to be very disrupted over time. Or you might have a kid with something like ODD that hasn't yet been diagnosed, either because the parents (again, you need all the pieces of the puzzle) or because they ran into a professional that will not "label" a kid. (I've seen that numerous times in my days at the group home). There are a lot of behavior modification methods out there, that are age specific, etc. and you might find some support in the nearby universities. Reach out to the college of psychology or public health and see if anyone has information, studies, methods, seminars, etc. that can give you ideas about classroom management of kids like these (I think the education department may or may not be useful, since they are looking at general classroom management). The University of Arizona often does symposiums and collaborative conferences where the students and faculty from the college of medicine, nursing, public health and education work on issues like this. Our last one was focused on autism in mainstream classrooms and how everyone on the child's team can work together. We also invited parents in the community who have a child with autism. It was really eye opening and there were a lot of ideas coming from all the different perspectives. I know there is a lot of work and research taking place out there to solve these problems. I wish I had some better information, but this is not my focus and I have been out of the arena in child social work for 15 years now, so my information is likely outdated/forgotten. Good luck! I know those things are very frustrating, but sometimes we need to be that frustrated to drive change. Be the change!
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kate
Drama Llama
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Jun 26, 2014 3:30:05 GMT
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Post by kate on Apr 16, 2016 16:19:56 GMT
GamGam, I'm sorry to tell you that this type of thing goes on in private schools as well. I wish it didn't, since I teach at one and my kids go to two others. DS is in a tough class - lots of disruptive behavior, teachers are frustrated, DS is frustrated. My other kid at the same school is having a completely wonderful experience. Reading this thread, I think maybe I should contact the school to let them know how frustrated DS is. I just have such a horror of being "one of those parents" who complains to the school every time Snowflake has a bad day. I feel like I should contact the principal, because the disruptions are not just happening in homeroom, but with multiple teachers (so I know it's not a matter of one teacher having a classroom-management problem); however, I don't want to be seen as going over the classroom teacher's head. What do you all think? The school is small, so he will be with these same kids for many more years.
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eleezybeth
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,784
Jun 28, 2014 20:42:01 GMT
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Post by eleezybeth on Apr 16, 2016 16:22:29 GMT
Please don't assume that teachers do not know the history of their students. My point is that so many people are willing to call these students children when it fits their agenda, but not when they are the victims of the students' actions. For every child you talk to that is in a bad situation, there are many, many more in the same situation that do not make horrible choices. And there are plenty of kids that you don't have to talk to because their parents have enough money to buy their kids out of consequences. OF COURSE kids, adults, everyone, learns from their environments. That doesn't mean they are unable to behave properly in society. Can you go back to my first post that you took question with? It might help you understand my point. I'm not calling kids kids for my agenda. How absurd. I'm not excusing the bad kids behaviors. I'm saying it isn't as simple as the OP made it sound. I can give you a grad level course on human behavior in a social environment which isn't just for poor kids!
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Post by happyOCgirl on Apr 16, 2016 16:26:38 GMT
My student screamed at me for 50 minutes "I hate you. You're stupid.", threw objects at me,kicked backpacks and walls, and tried to run away from school. Why? I asked him to switch one school supply that wasn't working for another one that was working. No consequences because he has an IEP. Not one thing happened. I teach general ed and this is what your children witness in first grade.
Thank you MergeLeft for starting this thread! I've taught 20 years and have seen such a shift in how we are 'allowed' to address children. For my district, it comes from the parents and the constant threat from them of being written up or sued.
I know every generation says the next is going to 'hell in a handbasket', right? This isn't about music or the way they want to dress. For many years now, my peers and I have noticed children don't have 'healthy fear' anymore. They know nothing will happen to them for their (age inappropriate) bad choices or lapse in self control. They have been raised in environments where they can make all the decisions for themselves about what they want and they're praised for it. The majority of the children do not fear consequences for their actions because they know there will be none.
The violence I see in six year-olds is very scary. Every time I meet with the parents about ways to support their child in changing and managing their behavior, the parents either blame other students or me. Every time.
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AnotherPea
Pearl Clutcher
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Jan 4, 2015 1:47:52 GMT
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Post by AnotherPea on Apr 16, 2016 16:32:46 GMT
I also think there is a problem with over diagnosis of behavior/emotional problems and solutions that just aren't reasonable. In my area, if a child continues to misbehave after he has been suspended it automatically means that he has ODD. Since the punishment didn't work and all. @@ Not that the kid got to stay home all day and do drugs, play video games and eat junk food instead of sitting in a classroom. OF COURSE a child is going to act up if he gets rewarded for misbehaving. Or if the in school suspension is a joke because the dean wants to "connect" with everyone and play big brother instead of making it a place to avoid.
Unfortunately I have had several students diagnoses as ODD. NONE of their parents have ever held their children accountable for their actions. Maybe it is a chicken/egg thing since I see them as teens. But every single mother has stated she was afraid of imposing consequences. When we speak about currency (taking away phones, cancelling car insurance, etc.) they have always said they didn't want to try it because the kids would go into a rage. They've never been able to take away privileges or toys because of tantrums. I'm sorry, but that just doesn't fly with a three year old. You may be afraid your 16 year old will beat you, but if you had bitten the bullet 13 years earlier, you likely wouldn't have had these issues. As teachers we're told to let a child rage, remove other students from the room, don't make direct eye contact with students, never use the child's name, never ask them to do something they've been opposed to doing in the past (change seats, take off hats, stop throwing things across the room), allow students to enter and exit the class as they please, speak to the class as a whole but not to a student directly, ignore foul language and name-calling and such. These "solutions" do not help train a child in how to behave properly. They just feed into their sense of control and entitlement.
My heart breaks for the students that have obstacles at home. I see it regularly and do what I can to help. I take a lot of crap from kids that I shouldn't have to, more than most. Well-behaved (or even moderately well behaved) students love my class because they know their learning environment will be protected. They will be safe. Poorly behaved students usually love me AFTER the course is over, lol. Some of them just need Mommies and when the rules no longer apply because they're not in my class, they will come by to visit and get help. But some students hate me and my strict rules. I'm okay with a couple hating me if it means the others get an opportunity to learn.
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Post by Princess Amy on Apr 16, 2016 16:55:42 GMT
I don't know what the answer is, but I think your OP is proof that corporal punishment doesn't work. The kids who are threatened with a whooping haven't actually learned to behave. They only behave when they are threatened with more violence. That's not discipline. That's fear. Spanking/hitting is lazy parenting. It's quickly teaching your kids to fear being hit instead of taking the time and effort to teach them why their behavior isn't acceptable and helping them learn what they should do instead. This. A million times , this. I've been a special education teacher for 30 years. I work in early intervention. I work with infants, toddlers and their parents. A majority of the families I work with don't parent. Most, because they're lazy. Parenting is hard. They don't do hard. They typically just shrug and wait for someone else to "fix it". I'm amazed at how little even middle class and well off parents know about parenting. No, your child should not just go until they drop. They need a sensible bedtime and a routine. I,m telling you all, it is horrifying . It keeps getting worse. I'm seeing the above mentioned behaviors in TODDLERS. And I keep plugging away, you know, doing hours of sped paperwork, because the government "needs" data. Spend a week with me. You'll end up crying. No way data reflects the cluster that is our society and educational system. Sorry for the rant. I'm really sad and exhausted by it all.
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Post by freecharlie on Apr 16, 2016 16:58:49 GMT
My student screamed at me for 50 minutes "I hate you. You're stupid.", threw objects at me,kicked backpacks and walls, and tried to run away from school. Why? I asked him to switch one school supply that wasn't working for another one that was working. No consequences because he has an IEP. Not one thing happened. I teach general ed and this is what your children witness in first grade. Thank you MergeLeft for starting this thread! I've taught 20 years and have seen such a shift in how we are 'allowed' to address children. For my district, it comes from the parents and the constant threat from them of being written up or sued. I know every generation says the next is going to 'hell in a handbasket', right? This isn't about music or the way they want to dress. For many years now, my peers and I have noticed children don't have 'healthy fear' anymore. They know nothing will happen to them for their (age inappropriate) bad choices or lapse in self control. They have been raised in environments where they can make all the decisions for themselves about what they want and they're praised for it. The majority of the children do not fear consequences for their actions because they know there will be none. The violence I see in six year-olds is very scary. Every time I meet with the parents about ways to support their child in changing and managing their behavior, the parents either blame other students or me. Every time. please tell me they at least clear the classroom when the student is escalated. And total bullshit on no consequences. He should have a behavior plan and the plan should have consequences
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seaexplore
Prolific Pea
Posts: 8,789
Apr 25, 2015 23:57:30 GMT
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Post by seaexplore on Apr 16, 2016 17:13:41 GMT
Love this discussion! What about "restorative justice" as discipline? That's all the rage here.
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AnotherPea
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,969
Jan 4, 2015 1:47:52 GMT
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Post by AnotherPea on Apr 16, 2016 17:27:10 GMT
Love this discussion! What about "restorative justice" as discipline? That's all the rage here. What does it look like there? We have to practically beg parents to buy into anything anything outside of detention and suspension
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Post by crazy4scraps on Apr 16, 2016 17:30:23 GMT
Reading these responses makes me so sad and worried. I'm a Grandmother, and oh so grateful that my grandchildren are in private schools. Happens there too...and in Charter schools. ALL THE TIME I went to a private school from 1st through 7th, and it was absolutely just as bad as public school. The only difference was that the kids had more money and more (unattended) free time to get into trouble. And when/if they did get into trouble, their parents had no problem using their resources to bail them out because there's NO WAY their little angel Johnny (or Janie) could have done what someone said they did... Ugh. I couldn't get out of that pit soon enough. The lovely private school kids my older siblings went to school with introduced them to drugs, liquor, sex, etc. My younger brother had someone offer him LSD on the playground in the 5th grade. At a private, religious school. It's everywhere.
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Post by Merge on Apr 16, 2016 17:40:05 GMT
Thank you all for your responses - sorry if it seemed like I posted and ran. We had our district's beginning choir festival this morning so I was off doing that. What a joy. I love my beginners!
I have one thought so far based on what I've read from others. There seems to be a strong feeling that motivating children to behave through fear is the wrong way to go, and that corporal punishment alone constitutes motivating through fear. I'm going to push back on that a little. I think that any negative deterrent we use is motivation through fear. Whether it's fear of reprimand or withdrawal of privileges or detention or suspension ... many if not most kids learn where boundaries are by learning to fear the consequences for crossing them. So I disagree that corporal punishment represents any more of a fear motivation than another negative consequence, except that some kids who don't fear detention might actually fear the paddle.
I also think there are different connotations with fear. One, the most obvious, is one that produces a strong fight or flight response. Fear of severe bodily harm or death, for example. Another is better described as a healthy respect for boundaries, with the understanding that there are unpleasant consequences for crossing them. I have kids at school who are would be traumatized to the point of tears if they ever got a detention. And I have kids who would probably take a paddling without a peep. So why is the detention a more acceptable negative consequence, if there are kids who fear that as much as anyone might fear a paddling?
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Post by nlwilkins on Apr 16, 2016 17:42:55 GMT
Ok this might be long.
Have you ever wondered what happens to the joy students have when starting school? the little ones just can't wait to start school and they love their teachers. Then little by little they change and soon they hate school and are problems in class. I blame this on our system and on the teachers.
I taught in a low socio-economic district for a decade in the middle school. I was a teacher in the special programs for the at risk students - the programs changed through the years but it was all for the at risk students who were discipline problems, who had probabtion officers, who were two years behind and so on. At first I had an edge because I taught a subject that was fun. Then I got the reputation that helped. I was not their friend but was a sort of den mother. I was a vocational home ec teacher who used the suject matter as a excuse to interact with the students. But the techniques and attitude I brought to the classroom can apply to all subjects.
I think the turning point for me was when we were required to take a workshop called Discipline with Dignity. I did not buy into the whole program but there were parts of it I liked. One was to make learning fun again so students did not want to disrupt the classroom. Another was the idea that students appreciated being treated with dignity and not like babies. If they were in the wrong, I did not talk down to them but talked to them calmly and applied the consequences. But, for the most part, I felt that if a student was misbehaving it could be a failure on my part to keep the student engaged and learning.
I would look at the "rewards" they were getting with their inappropriate behavior and work to remove the rewards. Sometimes students had to work out in the hall. Sometimes students were ignored. Sometimes I would give the student what he wanted in a positive way - students wanting attention became their group leader and got the attention. Students who would not stay in their seats were given chores to do that got them up out of their seats. Students who would not stay quiet were asked to lead discussions and so on. There was no ONE answer but many. But the best one was the keeping learning fun.
Even when I moved to the high school, my classes did a lot of out of seat activities. We cut out magazine pictures, we made posters, we made group reports, students talked to each other about the subject. For me, interaction with the subject was not reading a book, but physically interacting in some way. Disrupting a class is hard to do when the class is already up and moving around making posters, talking and the like. Teacher centered learning did happen a lot but in small doses. Paperwork happened too, but in small doses.
I also made sure that students had lots of opportunities to earn good grades. Everyday there was a warm up that got the students working right away. Each week that all warm ups were turned in meant an A for the student to be added in to other grades. Every assignment could be done over if the student wished to make a higher grade. Do over work could earn up to a 90. Sucess can be fun, good grades become addictive.
OOPs did not mean to go on and on. But, believe me, the teacher can make a difference. It is not easy and takes a lot of grunt work. But, you just have to think outside the box. You have to learn to let go of the things that are not working, to be more cncerened about the student learning than earning a good grade, and to be willing to find legitimate ways to pass out those A's. You can't be stingy with A's.
I saw so many teachers who taught from their desks and did not do much of anything but hand out worksheets, or assign reading textbooks and answering the questions at the end of the chapter. These teachers give the students a false idea of what learning is about and make it much harder for the teachers who really want to teach.
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Post by GamGam on Apr 16, 2016 17:44:38 GMT
Happens there too...and in Charter schools. ALL THE TIME I went to a private school from 1st through 7th, and it was absolutely just as bad as public school. The only difference was that the kids had more money and more (unattended) free time to get into trouble. And when/if they did get into trouble, their parents had no problem using their resources to bail them out because there's NO WAY their little angel Johnny (or Janie) could have done what someone said they did... Ugh. I couldn't get out of that pit soon enough. The lovely private school kids my older siblings went to school with introduced them to drugs, liquor, sex, etc. My younger brother had someone offer him LSD on the playground in the 5th grade. At a private, religious school. It's everywhere. This is not the environment of my grandchildren's schools. Respect for teachers and classmates is necessary to continue to be a student.
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TankTop
Pearl Clutcher
Refupea #1,871
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Jun 28, 2014 1:52:46 GMT
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Post by TankTop on Apr 16, 2016 17:49:05 GMT
In the course of my teaching career I have seen more and more straight up mental illness in the classroom. Scary, untreated, mental illness. It is so scary to me when a child can flip on a dime and terrorize a room. Scary for them, for the kids in the room, and for me. It is also my understanding the guidelines for diagnosis for many of these illnesses have been tightened up in this latest version of the dsmv. ?
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Post by refugeepea on Apr 16, 2016 17:49:49 GMT
I have not read all of the responses, so I'm sorry if this has been said. The school needs to have a firm policy on discipline. If the school says they have a zero tolerance for bullying, back that up with firm consequences. Not just bullying, disruption in the classroom, and all the other things that should not be done. I *really* feel for the teachers. Kids need to be suspended or kicked out more often. Their disruptive influence should NOT have to be a continual problem for the teachers. Too freaking bad if it's a problem for the parents. Their kid, their problem.
My daughter had a bully in sixth grade. He was FINALLY kicked out at the end of the year for only 2 weeks. I came to find out he was a bully to multiple children. If there's just a slap on the wrist (not literally!) where is the incentive to behave? Especially if they come from homes that are chaos! I feel for middle school teachers (8th-9th where I live)! I really think they would be the worst grades to teach. I took my daughter out and put her in a charter school because of the constant bullying.
ETA: The charter school is tiny, so there's less issues.
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Post by fwscrapper on Apr 16, 2016 17:57:01 GMT
I am a teacher with 18 years and a mother of a child with pediatric bipolar.
I strongly feel that there are many kids out there with mental illnesses that are going undiagnosed year after year. I had been a teacher for over a decade (and my husband too) when we first began seeking help for our son.
It took months and months to get an appt for a DX and it takes forever to find the right med/therapy combo. It was hard. We hung in there and got DS the help he needed.
BUT...we are professional educators and it was still difficult to navigate the mental health system. For so long we heard, he is just being a boy! But I knew before the age of two that something wasn't right with him. I see so many different kids in a year that I know what the average child should be able to do...and he wasn't able to do that.
I guess my point is this: there are parents out there that don't care, and there are parents that are out there that feel defeated when they have a child with issues.
For example, before all of this started I had no idea that anxiety in a young child can present as angry/defiant behavior. My son also has an anxiety disorder. I had no idea!
I am often "gifted" students with said behaviors of my son as I deal with it on a daily basis. Many of these kids are not diagnosed with anything, but it is so very obvious that there is something not quite right. Trying to get one of my current students help has literally taken me all year with mountains of documentation...and I still have to teach the other children.
I don't know what the answer is...but I do think a lot of these behaviors are masking deeper problems than we know.
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tonya
Shy Member
Posts: 44
Jun 27, 2014 13:56:56 GMT
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Post by tonya on Apr 16, 2016 18:04:57 GMT
This will be long as well. I think the issue so multifaceted. I'm going to piggy back on the posters above that talk about the impact of poverty and trauma on kids behaviour in schools. If the majority of the students are dealing with these issues, just getting to school is and should be reconginzed as an accomplishment. There are also lots of issues around race that impact how teachers view behavior as disrepective based on their own cultural identity. What some white teachers view as disrespect from students of color is often due to lack of cultural understanding. And to insist that students of color always behave in a way that white society view as polite is ridiculous and punitive. This is not by saying disrepect should be tolerated but often white middle class teachers view poor students of color as being disrepctful when the are not. There is a lot of reseach on this if you want to look into. My daughter (who is white and from an uppermiddle class family) chose to go to the public arts school which is 70% students below the poverty line and probably 60% students of color. The first visits there, I was overwhelmed by the volume and thought things were out of control. However, the graduation rate is amazing and the kids are really engaged (in their way - and it looks very different than a suburban public school or private schools). As far as being able to work in a more productive way with kids that are disrupting the entire classroom experience I'd suggest reading the works of Ross Greene. www.livesinthebalance.org/ He does lots of work with kids in institutional settings - schools, juvi halls, etc. With regards to restorative justice it's not a fad. It's about involving the perpetrators of problems in the solution with the victims and determining how to resolve the problme. It teaches skills rather than just punishment. They use it at my daughter's school and suspensions are almost non existent. I also agree that teachers - especially in urban settings are dealt a raw deal. The schools are dramatically underfunded and expected to provide wrap around care. Until our country really tackles the issues of income and racial inequality, it's going to get worse before it gets better. Then there is the whole issue of how school is structured and what is expected of kids at developmentally inappropriate stages, the testing, the sitting and it's just a hot mess.
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Post by Really Red on Apr 16, 2016 18:08:44 GMT
I think we expect too much of our 5yo kids to stay in school all day long. FIVE years old. They need to be outside playing.
If you're talking about older children, I think we still expect too much of kids that we don't give them time to play.
ETA: Clearly I'm talking about children who don't have other behavioral issues.
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Post by epeanymous on Apr 16, 2016 18:21:14 GMT
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Post by epeanymous on Apr 16, 2016 18:28:43 GMT
I went to a private school from 1st through 7th, and it was absolutely just as bad as public school. The only difference was that the kids had more money and more (unattended) free time to get into trouble. And when/if they did get into trouble, their parents had no problem using their resources to bail them out because there's NO WAY their little angel Johnny (or Janie) could have done what someone said they did... Ugh. I couldn't get out of that pit soon enough. The lovely private school kids my older siblings went to school with introduced them to drugs, liquor, sex, etc. My younger brother had someone offer him LSD on the playground in the 5th grade. At a private, religious school. It's everywhere. This is not the environment of my grandchildren's schools. Respect for teachers and classmates is necessary to continue to be a student. My kids attend public schools where the kids are really nice and pretty well-behaved. Many private schools have kids with behavior issues who have been pulled from public school. All everyone is telling you is that this isn't a public v. private school issue.
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Post by happyOCgirl on Apr 16, 2016 18:48:43 GMT
My student screamed at me for 50 minutes "I hate you. You're stupid.", threw objects at me,kicked backpacks and walls, and tried to run away from school. Why? I asked him to switch one school supply that wasn't working for another one that was working. No consequences because he has an IEP. Not one thing happened. I teach general ed and this is what your children witness in first grade. Thank you MergeLeft for starting this thread! I've taught 20 years and have seen such a shift in how we are 'allowed' to address children. For my district, it comes from the parents and the constant threat from them of being written up or sued. I know every generation says the next is going to 'hell in a handbasket', right? This isn't about music or the way they want to dress. For many years now, my peers and I have noticed children don't have 'healthy fear' anymore. They know nothing will happen to them for their (age inappropriate) bad choices or lapse in self control. They have been raised in environments where they can make all the decisions for themselves about what they want and they're praised for it. The majority of the children do not fear consequences for their actions because they know there will be none. The violence I see in six year-olds is very scary. Every time I meet with the parents about ways to support their child in changing and managing their behavior, the parents either blame other students or me. Every time. please tell me they at least clear the classroom when the student is escalated. And total bullshit on no consequences. He should have a behavior plan and the plan should have consequences The parents don't want the classroom cleared when he does this...because he's not 'a naughty boy'. We were just getting ready for lunch so I was able to clear the room this time. I missed my entire lunch due to this behavior. I do clear the students when it happens regardless of what the parents want because there is no way I want the rest of the students to witness this! He does have a behavior plan that I have been trying to add reasonable consequences (for this type of behavior that's almost daily) since September. Parents fight us, refuse to sign the addendum, and bring their advocate who says we're just mean. Sigh. I hate that I want to wish away a year of my job.
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Deleted
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Sept 30, 2024 14:22:00 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2016 18:54:05 GMT
Ok this might be long. Have you ever wondered what happens to the joy students have when starting school? the little ones just can't wait to start school and they love their teachers. Then little by little they change and soon they hate school and are problems in class. I blame this on our system and on the teachers. I taught in a low socio-economic district for a decade in the middle school. I was a teacher in the special programs for the at risk students - the programs changed through the years but it was all for the at risk students who were discipline problems, who had probabtion officers, who were two years behind and so on. At first I had an edge because I taught a subject that was fun. Then I got the reputation that helped. I was not their friend but was a sort of den mother. I was a vocational home ec teacher who used the suject matter as a excuse to interact with the students. But the techniques and attitude I brought to the classroom can apply to all subjects. I think the turning point for me was when we were required to take a workshop called Discipline with Dignity. I did not buy into the whole program but there were parts of it I liked. One was to make learning fun again so students did not want to disrupt the classroom. Another was the idea that students appreciated being treated with dignity and not like babies. If they were in the wrong, I did not talk down to them but talked to them calmly and applied the consequences. But, for the most part, I felt that if a student was misbehaving it could be a failure on my part to keep the student engaged and learning. I would look at the "rewards" they were getting with their inappropriate behavior and work to remove the rewards. Sometimes students had to work out in the hall. Sometimes students were ignored. Sometimes I would give the student what he wanted in a positive way - students wanting attention became their group leader and got the attention. Students who would not stay in their seats were given chores to do that got them up out of their seats. Students who would not stay quiet were asked to lead discussions and so on. There was no ONE answer but many. But the best one was the keeping learning fun. Even when I moved to the high school, my classes did a lot of out of seat activities. We cut out magazine pictures, we made posters, we made group reports, students talked to each other about the subject. For me, interaction with the subject was not reading a book, but physically interacting in some way. Disrupting a class is hard to do when the class is already up and moving around making posters, talking and the like. Teacher centered learning did happen a lot but in small doses. Paperwork happened too, but in small doses. I also made sure that students had lots of opportunities to earn good grades. Everyday there was a warm up that got the students working right away. Each week that all warm ups were turned in meant an A for the student to be added in to other grades. Every assignment could be done over if the student wished to make a higher grade. Do over work could earn up to a 90. Success can be fun, good grades become addictive. OOPs did not mean to go on and on. But, believe me, the teacher can make a difference. It is not easy and takes a lot of grunt work. But, you just have to think outside the box. You have to learn to let go of the things that are not working, to be more concerened about the student learning than earning a good grade, and to be willing to find legitimate ways to pass out those A's. You can't be stingy with A's. I saw so many teachers who taught from their desks and did not do much of anything but hand out worksheets, or assign reading textbooks and answering the questions at the end of the chapter. These teachers give the students a false idea of what learning is about and make it much harder for the teachers who really want to teach. . This is dead-on with what I have been trying to type out for the past 20 minutes.
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Post by 950nancy on Apr 16, 2016 19:14:58 GMT
If parents truly knew how much a disruptive child(ren) could or have kept their own children from learning, I believe this problem might already have been solved. There are certain behaviors from a small percentage of children (but large enough to effect almost every room) that keep your kids from learning. I have friends in the private sector that say it is just as bad in their rooms. My principals always gave me the highest marks for classroom management. I rarely had kids that were classroom disruptors, but they could easily keep the kids nearest to them off task. With one adult and 30 children all on different levels of academics, it was nearly impossible to manage effectively all day.
Our junior high had corporal punishment. We had 1,000 ninth graders in the lowest income part of north Omaha and the school was fenced and barbed wired. I was bused from a middle class neighborhood. It was a scary situation. I do know that corporal punishment was a very strong deterrent in this particular situation. The video of the five year old being paddled almost made me cry. I don't think there is a one size fits all for every school or situation.
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Post by christine58 on Apr 16, 2016 19:40:18 GMT
I blame this on our system and on the teachers. ;t Please don't paint all of us who TEACH as the cause...I am so offended by this comment.
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moodyblue
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,247
Location: Western Illinois
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Jun 26, 2014 21:07:23 GMT
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Post by moodyblue on Apr 16, 2016 19:58:56 GMT
I think everyone who has taught school can give all kinds of horror stories about what goes on. One of the biggest frustrations is in trying to not just deal with a problem child but actually HELP him - and getting no support from the parent(s)/guardians. Sometimes you get outright opposition from parents and sometimes the parent behaves in even worse ways. It is very frustrating when you hear a parent of a young child say ”I just don't know what to do with him." We can picture how much bigger the problem will be in a few years because we've seen it before. Or "It's the school's problem" because it didn't happen at home. And how many times do we get a transfer student whose parent denies any problems at the old school - even though we know the kid has had multiple behavior issues/reports and suspensions. And no, we are not just picking on your child, or racist because we reprimand for inappropriate words and actions.
And then you get the ones like a student I used to work with, now a third grader with some pretty serious diagnosed mental health issues, born to drug-using parents, being raised by grandparents - who let him play active shooter video games. Same kid, rejecting what his teacher told him as she was trying to explain consequences, who said to her "You're just like all the other teachers; you're just here for the money." Now an eight-year-old doesn't really come up with that on his own - and grandpa confirmed that it is his thinking that the kid was repeating. These grandparents do try to work with the school in most ways, but it isn't helping when they don't see how their own words and actions contribute to the problems.
Bottom line, teachers and schools can't do this on their own. Administrators have to be strong and clear, and be backed up by school boards. Parents of well-behaved kids have to express their concerns about the disruptions and even dangers that are caused by a few students (complaints by parents, unfortunately, often get more action to happen than repeated expressions of concern by the teachers), and all parents have to be willing to work with the school personnel to do what's best for the kids.
Societal problems can't be solved by the schools alone. We take all kids and have to deal with them the best we can. Sadly, there are also way too many kids who are victims of trauma, and there aren't nearly enough counselors and social workers for the need.
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Post by Merge on Apr 16, 2016 20:02:17 GMT
Ok this might be long. Have you ever wondered what happens to the joy students have when starting school? the little ones just can't wait to start school and they love their teachers. Then little by little they change and soon they hate school and are problems in class. I blame this on our system and on the teachers. I taught in a low socio-economic district for a decade in the middle school. I was a teacher in the special programs for the at risk students - the programs changed through the years but it was all for the at risk students who were discipline problems, who had probabtion officers, who were two years behind and so on. At first I had an edge because I taught a subject that was fun. Then I got the reputation that helped. I was not their friend but was a sort of den mother. I was a vocational home ec teacher who used the suject matter as a excuse to interact with the students. But the techniques and attitude I brought to the classroom can apply to all subjects. I think the turning point for me was when we were required to take a workshop called Discipline with Dignity. I did not buy into the whole program but there were parts of it I liked. One was to make learning fun again so students did not want to disrupt the classroom. Another was the idea that students appreciated being treated with dignity and not like babies. If they were in the wrong, I did not talk down to them but talked to them calmly and applied the consequences. But, for the most part, I felt that if a student was misbehaving it could be a failure on my part to keep the student engaged and learning. I would look at the "rewards" they were getting with their inappropriate behavior and work to remove the rewards. Sometimes students had to work out in the hall. Sometimes students were ignored. Sometimes I would give the student what he wanted in a positive way - students wanting attention became their group leader and got the attention. Students who would not stay in their seats were given chores to do that got them up out of their seats. Students who would not stay quiet were asked to lead discussions and so on. There was no ONE answer but many. But the best one was the keeping learning fun. Even when I moved to the high school, my classes did a lot of out of seat activities. We cut out magazine pictures, we made posters, we made group reports, students talked to each other about the subject. For me, interaction with the subject was not reading a book, but physically interacting in some way. Disrupting a class is hard to do when the class is already up and moving around making posters, talking and the like. Teacher centered learning did happen a lot but in small doses. Paperwork happened too, but in small doses. I also made sure that students had lots of opportunities to earn good grades. Everyday there was a warm up that got the students working right away. Each week that all warm ups were turned in meant an A for the student to be added in to other grades. Every assignment could be done over if the student wished to make a higher grade. Do over work could earn up to a 90. Sucess can be fun, good grades become addictive. OOPs did not mean to go on and on. But, believe me, the teacher can make a difference. It is not easy and takes a lot of grunt work. But, you just have to think outside the box. You have to learn to let go of the things that are not working, to be more cncerened about the student learning than earning a good grade, and to be willing to find legitimate ways to pass out those A's. You can't be stingy with A's. I saw so many teachers who taught from their desks and did not do much of anything but hand out worksheets, or assign reading textbooks and answering the questions at the end of the chapter. These teachers give the students a false idea of what learning is about and make it much harder for the teachers who really want to teach. . This may be happening still in some places, but I have never in my eight years of teaching seen a teacher who doles out seat work from behind a desk. No one survives in this profession teaching that way any more. We are all leading a three-ring circus of entertainment these days, it seems, to keep our screen-addicted students engaged. For myself, as a choir director, everything we do is active and participatory. We have multiple opportunities for success each day. And yet I have students who were shoved into choir because no other elective was open, who don't want to be there, who refuse to participate in what we're doing and choose to be disruptive instead. I'm engaging 97% of the students in my classroom, but the other 3% can easily derail us.
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Post by maryland on Apr 16, 2016 20:41:37 GMT
And this is why after 35 years in education I am retiring in 30 days. 98% of my students are amazing. But the 5 students who do everything they can to be rude and disruptive and don't care about consequences have done me in. That's what happened to my mil. She retired a bit earlier then she wanted to. The principal did not support the teachers. She had a student push her up against a wall and she said she was almost afraid to protect herself because the administration would take the boys side over hers. Another thing that upset her is that they were forced to induct 2 girls into the National Honor Society that had recently drove their car onto the football field and cause damage. The teachers thought that showed bad character, but mommy and daddy complained so they got in. She told me these stories years ago, so I don't remember the details. I remember how sad she was that a few students ruin it for all of the wonderful students she taught.
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