S/O: If not corporal punishment, then what?

I didn't post on the other thread. I'm a former teacher, and I totally get what you are saying here. Certain kids only respond when they know you are in touch with their parents.

Can you give a reward to the rest of the class (like free time on the computer or something at the end of each class) and withhold it from the misbehavers? The negative behavior is obviously a way to get attention, and being left out of the fun is a sucky kind of attention they might not like.

It's so hard when parents don't back teachers up with consequences at home.

I work at a small school where the principal is very involved with helping the teachers and students correct disrupted behaviour. That helps a lot.

If you disrupt class, ignore the teachers intructions (after a certain amount of warnings), use unwanted language towards the teacher or fellow students you quickly find youself taken out of the classroom. Misbehaving is'nt fun when your audience is gone and you find yourself working alone in the office while the principal is phoning your mother.

It doesn't solve every problem, but it helps. The students know the consequense and usually only need a warning to calm down. That makes it easier to break the negative cycle and actually build a more positive relation with them.

But how do you suggest we DO this? By "we" I mean teachers, although as I said I'm just a substitute. Every grade of elementary school has assessments they have to do. Third grade (the grade that my "Bobby" is in, in my previous reply) is when they have their first state-mandated standardized tests. Each grade has kids at different levels for each subject. So math groups will be different from language arts groups, which require "differentiated learning plans" (required by the county). Then there are the IEPs (more paperwork), and the second-language kids (we have quite a few), and the kids attached to the nearby military base and who have just transferred from Texas where they learned Texas history -- but oh yeah, this is Virginia so quick teacher, get that kid up to speed on Virginia history so he/she can pass this test. Then add in all the wacky parents -- you know... "my child was upset the other day because he didn't get pizza for lunch." 

So, the teachers have to deal with all that, and manage somehow to teach these kids all their subjects. So how do they also deal with "Bobby" and all the others like him? Bobby's teacher has been teaching for a lot of years and has seen it all. She says this is the worst year she's ever had, and she's at her wit's end with this kid. I see it in many other classes also. And it's all experienced teachers who are saying this because this principal is nice to her first-year teachers and tries to give them a nice class for their first year. 

The only thing I know for sure is that I could never be a regular teacher. No way. 

Monklady123, when "Bobby" has to go to the principal's office, what does the principal do besides yell and threaten? If he(she?)does nothing else, and all Bobby has to do is say he's sorry, he gets to go back to class, I can see where Bobby is learning that going to the principal's office means little. I'm not saying principal needs to do anything else, but instead of sending him back to class, Bobby can just stay in principal's office until it's time to go home. Have him do his work there or even just sit there. Each and every time he acts up. No fun for Bobby. No fun for principal either, but he may only have to do this a few times. Hopefully.

Good administration and tough, consistent consequences are key. 

During my third year of teaching I was on hall duty and a 15 year old comes down the hall wearing a red bandanna. Not allowed in school, and he knew it. I told him to take it off. I was polite. He replied with "F--- you." He refuses to do as told and continues cussing at me as he walks down the hallway. I follow him into his class where his teacher tells me his name. I call for an administrator, kid bows up to me and tells me to put the f-ing phone down NOW. I call for a cop. Cop comes, escorts the kid to one of the principals. I tell the cop I'll be there in a minute to write the referral. I get to the office and the kid has his feet up on the principal's desk, sucking on a lollipop she had given him. Bandanna still on his head. @@

Our school has a discipline chart. All of these things are not big things but they are "things" nevertheless. Each of these individual episodes would warrant a "red" flag (after a warning), after 3 red flags  you get a black. Collect 3 black and it's ISS for a day. I actually think it sometimes takes too long to collect enough black flags for an ISS day. 3rd graders do get ISS in our schools. 

One of the biggest things I noticed as a parent. The first half of the school year our teachers really follow their discipline plan, rewards plan.. you know those stickers/flags etc. I notice that by after Christmas it starts to dwindle.  Now no kids seem to get green, yellow, purple etc..  Not sure if they are in end of the year survival mode, or if they just use these things the first of the year as a way to categorize/learn about the behavior of their the students.

ETA  our school has corporal punishment but by the time they get parental permission etc it's usually a couple of days after the incident and it's in the principals office not classroom.  I personally have not given the school permission to paddle mine. I believe in corporal punishment but just from parents.

I have taught special ed--emotionally disturbed/mentally ill kids--from age 6-18 over my 35 years of teaching. I have been in 6:1+1 classes housed in regular schools and am now a large building that has Career and tech students, special ed and alternative ed kids. I have witnessed many things over the years and as I sit here and think about Merge question I have a couple thoughts.

I see a serious lack of respect every single day. Kids don't respect themselves nor adults. We've gone from a country where respect was taught and earned to one that society feeds on the lack of respect. Not sure how to change that when we have all seen the disrespect on a daily basis. We have kids who don't value themselves because no one in their life values them. Kindness barely exists.

Back to Merge I think that we have administrators that are assholes. The kid in someone's post who had a lollypop---we call those kind of admins "The milk and cookie" person. If we have/had good solid leadership, nothing else matters because every thing else will fall into place. Consequences mean nothing without the back up. I wish I had the answer. I am retiring next year because this isn't fun anymore.

As a teacher I would like to add to the discussion this food for thought...

Regardless or IEP, Gen Ed, or 504 status we are allowing our children to sit in classrooms each and every single day with behaviors that we as adults would never tolerate in the workplace.

From the moment a child enters kindergarten they are in an environment year after year where things happen daily that any parent would be shocked to hear are happening. I am constantly amazed by how little the parents of my students know. Kids don't go home and talk.

Fast forward to junior high and high school. Bomb threats, violent fights, weapons at school... After one of these incidents kids come out of the woodwork to tell the stories of things that have happened to lead to this newest news worthy incident. The community cries out wanting to know why nobody said anything.

Why? Because we have CONDITIONED ENTIRE GENERATIONS TO ACCEPT THE UNACCEPTABLE.

Think about it. The ramifications of this will continue until parents stand with teachers and say enough is enough.

The ONLY way a very disruptive violent child got removed--finally---from my room was when the other parents said "Enough"....

So what is your suggestion for what a teacher should do.

I think you're right for the most part, but my kid DOES come home and talk. And talk, and talk and TALK. We're in a well funded suburban district but stuff still happens. My sister works in a school in another state and she said that some of the things she has personally witnessed with elementary kids would curl a person's hair. She also works in fairly upperclass suburban district, and she says if she was raising young kids today she would homeschool because it's just that bad.

I guess I should add that although some kids talk I have found that a lot parents don't report it for fear of getting a well respected teacher in trouble. I have also had parents say they didn't call because they assumed someone else did.

As a teacher I BEG you to call each and every time. I NEED you to call.

I think the problem is bigger than an individual teacher can solve.

Schools that have an administration who have clear and consistent policies, but who also run the school with compassion, and are able to really get to know the students.

Those schools can make a difference.

I believe most kids just need to know someone cares. The more they know that the easier it is to get your desired results.

I taught for 10 years in a failing school district at the worst high school in the district. Guns, knives, assaults drugs you name it we had it on campus.,

We had a crappy administration. It took me about 3 or 4 years. But eventually I became known as one of the teachers who cares. Once I had the reputation, I had little issue with class room behavior. There were those kids who would do anything NOT to have me as a teacher. (because they didn't want to do any work) but there were more who really wanted me to be their teacher.

It was bloody hard work back then, I was young, I easily worked 60 hour weeks, and then I spent every weekend watching whatever sport or event that was going on. I was married to my job. It was hard a hell.

It must be 100x harder today. With all the testing and paper work etc. You can't just be a teacher you have to be a social worker, a counselor, a parent .

I think that we really need to rethink education, it cant' just be about reading, writing, etc. It must be about educating the whole child, and helping them no matter where they are. I worked at a school in London, and the model there was that teachers often taught different levels of the same subject, so you might have the same math teacher for 3 or 4 years, or the same Spanish teacher. I think this helped the students and the teachers, they didn't need to get to know each other, the curriculum seemsed to carry on much less effortlessly than what I had experienced in American schools. The school was big enough if there was a serious compatibility issue with a teacher and student they could be moved to a different section. This would happen at the end of each term, or 3 times a year, it was not a big deal at all.

When I suggested something similar at the Charter School that I help start, you would have thought I was suggesting that all tests be taken while the students were standing on their heads. It was completely incomprehensible to some of the other board members.

I think we know so much today about how the brain works, and how we learn that schools should be available based on a student's learning style not their neighborhood.

I will wrap up my rant to say. I think that kids are inquisitive and want to learn. Kids who act like assholes do so for a reason. If from day one we could focus not on the what he or she did but the WHY, we could reduce discipline problems significantly. But that takes resources, particularly time! What school employee has the time to work with kids and figure out the big stuff?

If we really want change, schools need to be funded better, and we need more staff to help those kids figure out their why.

They are children until one of them carjacks your car with your baby in the backseat. Until one grabs your daughter's butt daily and threatens her if she tells. Until one murdersa store clerk to see what it feels like. Until one calls in a bomb threat to the prom you've forked out $$$ for your child to attend. THEN people who use the "just children " line feel differently.
All of these things have happened, with students as young as 14 in the district next to mine. I don't care how under developed a teen's brain is perceived to be, there is no excuse for any of those behaviors.