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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2016 20:15:57 GMT
From the school/student perspective, it IS about preventing cheating. While protecting intellectual property is an important issue, it's not why schools use anti-plagiarism services. They do that to try to protect the integrity of grades and minimize the chances students are turning in work that is not their own. You're right, of course. But as a writer, to me it's a much bigger issue. I have friends who have their novels copied and placed online for free -- constantly. So much so that there are now programs to help you find all the places your work has been copied online. It's a moral issue too. Yes, absolutely IP is a big issue. It's just not the issue here  |
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Post by jeremysgirl on Apr 20, 2016 20:23:37 GMT
Good that he learned this lesson now before college. I am working on my masters degree right now and I had a paper due in one of my finance classes. My university has this handy thing where you run your paper through and you can see how much of a match it is to other sources. What I did not realize is that once you submit a paper through there, it goes into their database. I actually ended up reworking an old paper and when I ran it through, it said it was a 50% match. To my old paper. I plagiarized myself. After I discussed it with my professor, he allowed me to write on a completely different topic and submit a fresh paper. But it really was a learning experience for me. I did not know you could plagiarize yourself. And I did not realize that once the paper was submitted, it went into the database. Colleges are getting really savvy about this. There are so many tools now to make sure that your work is original. Good to learn this lesson now. This just seems so wrong! Copying someone else's work, photo, etc - wrong. Revising *your own* earlier work - how is that plagiarism?!?!?! If professor Smith assigns a paper on a topic, and professor Jones assigns a paper on a similar topic, then why reinvent the wheel? It's *your* work. This I don't understand. Technically, it's not plagiarism in the strict sense. An incidence of true plagiarism would have gotten me kicked out. Because it was my own work, I could not be disciplined for it. My professor was able to see that I had copied my own work. But it was still against his rules. So I wrote an alternative paper. I just added my experience because it's not just online sources that these computer programs can see, but also submitted papers of other students. That's the part I had never had an experience with. I did not realize that once I wrote something and turned it in, it would permanently be in a database and both mine and other students work would be compared against it. |
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Post by gmcwife1 on Apr 20, 2016 20:29:00 GMT
Good that he learned this lesson now before college. I am working on my masters degree right now and I had a paper due in one of my finance classes. My university has this handy thing where you run your paper through and you can see how much of a match it is to other sources. What I did not realize is that once you submit a paper through there, it goes into their database. I actually ended up reworking an old paper and when I ran it through, it said it was a 50% match. To my old paper. I plagiarized myself. After I discussed it with my professor, he allowed me to write on a completely different topic and submit a fresh paper. But it really was a learning experience for me. I did not know you could plagiarize yourself. And I did not realize that once the paper was submitted, it went into the database. Colleges are getting really savvy about this. There are so many tools now to make sure that your work is original. Good to learn this lesson now. Good to know, I never thought about yourself! |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2016 21:13:49 GMT
If professor Smith assigns a paper on a topic, and professor Jones assigns a paper on a similar topic, then why reinvent the wheel? It's *your* work. This I don't understand. This was specifically forbidden in the code of conduct at my college. It was before the age of plagiarism databases, so it was an honor code issue, but if you were caught violating it, you could be expelled. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2016 21:19:34 GMT
This just seems so wrong! Copying someone else's work, photo, etc - wrong. Revising *your own* earlier work - how is that plagiarism?!?!?! If professor Smith assigns a paper on a topic, and professor Jones assigns a paper on a similar topic, then why reinvent the wheel? It's *your* work. This I don't understand. Technically, it's not plagiarism in the strict sense. An incidence of true plagiarism would have gotten me kicked out. Because it was my own work, I could not be disciplined for it. My professor was able to see that I had copied my own work. But it was still against his rules. So I wrote an alternative paper. I just added my experience because it's not just online sources that these computer programs can see, but also submitted papers of other students. That's the part I had never had an experience with. I did not realize that once I wrote something and turned it in, it would permanently be in a database and both mine and other students work would be compared against it. My daughter was just telling me about this scenario just recently. She didn't know it was really a rule and did something similar in her sophomore year in college. She wasn't stopped/caught/reprimanded, but later learned it could have happened. I found out when she mentioned she had to get home to write a paper or 3 and I joked she could probably just use something she had already written. I had no idea this wasn't allowed. |
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used2scrap
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,080 
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Post by used2scrap on Apr 20, 2016 21:21:03 GMT
If professor Smith assigns a paper on a topic, and professor Jones assigns a paper on a similar topic, then why reinvent the wheel? It's *your* work. This I don't understand. This was specifically forbidden in the code of conduct at my college. It was before the age of plagiarism databases, so it was an honor code issue, but if you were caught violating it, you could be expelled. Back in the dark ages (late 90s), in my experience, we were only allowed to do this with permission from both professors beforehand. |
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~Lauren~
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by ~Lauren~ on Apr 20, 2016 21:24:45 GMT
I don't understand this either. To me, it's a ridiculous rule to forbid it.
When I was in law school I handed in the same paper for two classes. I don't think there was any rule against it (of course, this was 35 years ago). However, I did learn how arbitrary grading is when one professor gave me a C+ and the other gave me an A for the same exact paper.
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used2scrap
Drama Llama
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Post by used2scrap on Apr 20, 2016 21:38:16 GMT
I don't understand this either. To me, it's a ridiculous rule to forbid it. When I was in law school I handed in the same paper for two classes. I don't think there was any rule against it (of course, this was 35 years ago). However, I did learn how arbitrary grading is when one professor gave me a C+ and the other gave me an A for the same exact paper. I had one professor say yes if the original idea was expanded upon and I turned in the original with the new version, and I had one say no, had to be original work. But I did cite my original paper and used it as a source lol. |
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Post by anxiousmom on Apr 20, 2016 22:31:31 GMT
****************************** So DH and I just had a little chat with DS. He did know what plagiarism meant - he'd been taught the term and not to do it. But he thought that putting down the website he used was how you listed your "source". DH and I are both in agreement that it was the lazy way out. DS knows how serious this is and that we are not ok with any of it. He has to do the assignment over - he will not be getting a new grade on it, but he has to do it properly. That came from his teacher. DS is just waiting on the new deadline date for it from her. Very hard lesson learned, but definitely learned! You know, I wondered about this. My older son had trouble with the distinctions too. He had been taught about plagiarism, but somehow had trouble grasping the details of exactly what that meant. He knew not to straight up copy, but beyond that, he would sometimes not totally understand the more subtle ways that it can happen. He would periodically ask me to proofread and to me it was easy to pick out what were his words vs. the lifted words/sentences. He would try to mix up the words and call them his own. Anyway, best to learn the hard lesson now rather than later on when the consequences are possibly more severe.  |
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Post by brina on Apr 20, 2016 22:41:06 GMT
He's in Grade 9, and the issue/topic of plagiarism has most likely never come up with him - he honestly had no idea what he'd done, why it was so bad. I have to disagree with this. He's plenty old enough to know that copying and pasting a whole project is cheating. Kids in kindergarten know it's wrong to copy off their classmate's paper. A teen surely knows it's wrong to copy a whole paper off the internet. Sorry you're dealing with this. It's a rough thing to go through and hopefully he learns his lesson fully and does not repeat this, or he's going to have a very tough row to hoe academically. I don't buy that a what 14? 15? year old boy didn't understand that copying and pasting somebody else's words off of a website was cheating, even if he did not know the word plagiarism. The school is bending over backwards to give him a second chance and he should be thanking his lucky stars they are being so generous. At our house there would be home consequences as well. |
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AnotherPea
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by AnotherPea on Apr 20, 2016 22:51:50 GMT
Love the way you and the school are handling it!
I'm glad that your son admitted he knew better- I would have very surprised that he had never had to write a paper/report before 9th grade!
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AnotherPea
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by AnotherPea on Apr 20, 2016 22:58:15 GMT
I wouldn't worry about the "permanent record" thing. I cant imagine that a mistake you make in the 9th grade could possibly follow you anywhere. It can directly impact your ability to get into the college of your choice. It will keep you out of honor societies here. And in the district over, prevent you from taking AP classes. No recommendations for special programs or scholarships. It can be a very big deal. There is no excuse for it. |
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Deleted
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Sept 30, 2024 0:33:37 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2016 23:05:03 GMT
I wouldn't worry about the "permanent record" thing. I cant imagine that a mistake you make in the 9th grade could possibly follow you anywhere. Some of the high school transcripts we receive do have that sort of academic dishonesty on it. Other times, it may not make it to the record that goes to a college but it may impact which courses a student is allowed to enroll in later, such as barring the student from being allowed to take an AP course. So, yes, it is a mistake that could follow for a long time. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2016 23:07:17 GMT
****************************** So DH and I just had a little chat with DS. He did know what plagiarism meant - he'd been taught the term and not to do it. But he thought that putting down the website he used was how you listed your "source". DH and I are both in agreement that it was the lazy way out. DS knows how serious this is and that we are not ok with any of it. He has to do the assignment over - he will not be getting a new grade on it, but he has to do it properly. That came from his teacher. DS is just waiting on the new deadline date for it from her. Very hard lesson learned, but definitely learned! ...Anyway, best to learn the hard lesson now rather than later on when the consequences are possibly more severe. At my house, the new deadline would be before he did anything else fun (no sports, no dates, no computer outside of the assignment) and honestly I'd probably make him write another paper on plagiarism and intellectual property just for me before we moved on. Home consequences would be MUCH worse than school consequences on this one. Do you have any business research you want done? etc.
Why wait for the teacher to give a deadline? Just do it NOW -- turn it in BEFORE it is due. That will show just a bit of remorse and making up for what he tried to pull.... whatever you want to call it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2016 23:10:18 GMT
Turnitin.com is a huge database that my university uses as do many other schools. Every paper we write is sent there. So even if I use my own work in two classes I will be punished for plagiarism on the second one. School rules explicitly state the same paper/project can't be used in two different classes without prior approval of both instructors.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2016 23:32:37 GMT
DS is just waiting on the new deadline date for it from her. Very hard lesson learned, but definitely learned! Tell him he has already missed the deadline. Get his happy little butt to work on it. He doesn't need a deadline to get started, or finished, with it. Letting him wait for a deadline is enabling lazy behavior. |
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seaexplore
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Apr 25, 2015 23:57:30 GMT
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Post by seaexplore on Apr 20, 2016 23:37:17 GMT
My husband did every paper in college "copy/paste" and made up sources. Yes, even his capstone paper.
I teach junior high and when I used to assign papers I would go over plagiarism and what it is and how to not do it and what the consequences are. I have 2 favorites....
1. "As you can see from the image at the right...." Um, there IS no image. Take your zero.
2. "The female is ovoviviparous...." What does that word mean? Oh, you don't know. Take your zero.
Hard lessons to learn but they need to learn them early.
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Rainbow
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Where salt is in the air and sand is at my feet...
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Post by Rainbow on Apr 20, 2016 23:50:32 GMT
I struggle to believe that no one at school every taught him that copying is not on. Even back in the old days with books you couldn't just copy paragraph by hand. Its just one of those things you learn. |
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Post by iteach3rdgrade on Apr 21, 2016 0:46:32 GMT
What age are students taught? I talk about it with my third graders because we work on writing responses in our own words. Sometimes they come to me and have been taught to copy sentence or so it seems. This year I seem to have students rearranging words. It drives me crazy!
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Post by ktdoesntscrap on Apr 21, 2016 1:10:43 GMT
My daughter is in 7th grade and she has definitely been taught not to plagiarize.
At our school it would not have been taken so lightly. He would have been given a 0 on the project and had to redo it to the teachers satisfaction. The 0 would stand.
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Post by melanell on Apr 21, 2016 1:22:38 GMT
If he didn't know then it is a shortcoming of the school system. This is stressed from middle school onward. This was my thought as well. My son was taught about plagiarism in 5th grade, maybe earlier. But I know for a fact that he learned about it in 5th grade because that was the first year he wrote a paper that involved actual research, and he was very concerned about copyrights and plagiarism because he wasn't sure how much rewording he had to do to include the researched information without doing something wrong. |
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M in Carolina
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Post by M in Carolina on Apr 21, 2016 1:35:36 GMT
I think you could use your cake business to drive the point home. You wouldn't want somebody else copying your designs. Yes, you can use photos as inspiration, but you wouldn't accept a job where a client showed you a photo of another designer's work and said--do this exactly.
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Post by freecharlie on Apr 21, 2016 1:47:30 GMT
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AnotherPea
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,969
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Post by AnotherPea on Apr 21, 2016 20:36:24 GMT
My husband did every paper in college "copy/paste" and made up sources. Yes, even his capstone paper. I teach junior high and when I used to assign papers I would go over plagiarism and what it is and how to not do it and what the consequences are. I have 2 favorites.... 1. "As you can see from the image at the right...." Um, there IS no image. Take your zero. 2. "The female is ovoviviparous...." What does that word mean? Oh, you don't know. Take your zero. Hard lessons to learn but they need to learn them early. My favorite was a report on nature preserves/protected areas. At the end of the copied section was a map with driving directions to the Grand Canyon. |
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seaexplore
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Apr 25, 2015 23:57:30 GMT
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Post by seaexplore on Apr 21, 2016 22:27:40 GMT
My husband did every paper in college "copy/paste" and made up sources. Yes, even his capstone paper. I teach junior high and when I used to assign papers I would go over plagiarism and what it is and how to not do it and what the consequences are. I have 2 favorites.... 1. "As you can see from the image at the right...." Um, there IS no image. Take your zero. 2. "The female is ovoviviparous...." What does that word mean? Oh, you don't know. Take your zero. Hard lessons to learn but they need to learn them early. My favorite was a report on nature preserves/protected areas. At the end of the copied section was a map with driving directions to the Grand Canyon. That's awesome! Lol |
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Post by freecharlie on Apr 21, 2016 22:41:01 GMT
My husband did every paper in college "copy/paste" and made up sources. Yes, even his capstone paper. I teach junior high and when I used to assign papers I would go over plagiarism and what it is and how to not do it and what the consequences are. I have 2 favorites.... 1. "As you can see from the image at the right...." Um, there IS no image. Take your zero. 2. "The female is ovoviviparous...." What does that word mean? Oh, you don't know. Take your zero. Hard lessons to learn but they need to learn them early. My favorite was a report on nature preserves/protected areas. At the end of the copied section was a map with driving directions to the Grand Canyon. I got one that said Monday Green Bay Packers. Tuesday Dallas Cowboys Wednesday Pittsburgh Steelers And it was spaces out like a column, so totally different from the rest of the paper. She was writing about the Cowboys and went into the copy/paste saying they played the Packers on monday... I about died. Ds did the copy/paste this year and had it been cites the copy would have been okay. I cracked up a bit when I saw the copy wasn't even in the same font as the rest of the paper. His teacher used it as a teaching experience. |
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Post by Sassenach on Apr 22, 2016 0:04:45 GMT
I just asked my daughter if she knows NOT to do this. She told me they learned it is "illegal" (her words) to copy and paste. They have been talking about plagiarism at school since the third grade.
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Post by Rachel on Apr 22, 2016 2:23:25 GMT
High school registrar here. I prepare transcripts for our students, and request transcripts from other schools when a student transfers into ours. I have never seen any type of discipline listed on a transcript. Never.
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Post by Really Red on Apr 22, 2016 10:52:06 GMT
Your son was lucky. At my kids' HS, if you plagiarize, you are suspended for three weeks. All our kids here learn about it clearly by 6th grade.
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Post by whopea on Apr 22, 2016 12:57:45 GMT
Good that he learned this lesson now before college. I am working on my masters degree right now and I had a paper due in one of my finance classes. My university has this handy thing where you run your paper through and you can see how much of a match it is to other sources. What I did not realize is that once you submit a paper through there, it goes into their database. I actually ended up reworking an old paper and when I ran it through, it said it was a 50% match. To my old paper. I plagiarized myself. After I discussed it with my professor, he allowed me to write on a completely different topic and submit a fresh paper. But it really was a learning experience for me. I did not know you could plagiarize yourself. And I did not realize that once the paper was submitted, it went into the database. Colleges are getting really savvy about this. There are so many tools now to make sure that your work is original. Good to learn this lesson now. This just seems so wrong! Copying someone else's work, photo, etc - wrong. Revising *your own* earlier work - how is that plagiarism?!?!?! If professor Smith assigns a paper on a topic, and professor Jones assigns a paper on a similar topic, then why reinvent the wheel? It's *your* work. This I don't understand. I was surprised by this too. I never knew you could plagiarize yourself! |
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