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Post by cakediva on Apr 20, 2016 18:26:34 GMT
DS' Geography teacher just called, and asked if DS had told us about the incident with his project.
Of course not.
Turns out, on his latest assignment, he went to one website, did the "copy and paste" thing - for his entire project.
Teacher has spoken to him, Guidance has spoken to him and the Vice Principal has spoken to him. His teacher said after the Vice Principal told him the seriousness of what he'd done, he finally got it.
He's in Grade 9, and the issue/topic of plagiarism has most likely never come up with him - he honestly had no idea what he'd done, why it was so bad. The teacher said as much to me as well. I commented that I wasn't excusing it at all, we would deal with it - but that it was a word he'd probably never heard before. She agreed, and that he was a smiles and laughing about it with her until he finally understood.
Oh boy.
This will go on his record - and it has been stressed to him that if it ever happens again, they will see the grade 9 issue and immediately jump to "he's done it before", and that post-secondary it would mean expulsion.
So DH and I get to chat with him tonight over it. And I know his 2nd year University student older sister will also impress upon him how serious it is.
This is definitely a first for us!
******************************
So DH and I just had a little chat with DS. He did know what plagiarism meant - he'd been taught the term and not to do it. But he thought that putting down the website he used was how you listed your "source". DH and I are both in agreement that it was the lazy way out. DS knows how serious this is and that we are not ok with any of it.
He has to do the assignment over - he will not be getting a new grade on it, but he has to do it properly. That came from his teacher. DS is just waiting on the new deadline date for it from her.
Very hard lesson learned, but definitely learned!
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Sept 30, 2024 0:40:03 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2016 18:30:20 GMT
He's in Grade 9, and the issue/topic of plagiarism has most likely never come up with him - he honestly had no idea what he'd done, why it was so bad. I have to disagree with this. He's plenty old enough to know that copying and pasting a whole project is cheating. Kids in kindergarten know it's wrong to copy off their classmate's paper. A teen surely knows it's wrong to copy a whole paper off the internet. Sorry you're dealing with this. It's a rough thing to go through and hopefully he learns his lesson fully and does not repeat this, or he's going to have a very tough row to hoe academically.
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Post by colleen on Apr 20, 2016 18:31:24 GMT
I'm glad you realize how important this is, but I totally understand how this copy and paste generation thinks its "no big deal." When ds was in high school 10+ years ago they had just started using the programs that would check for plagiarism. He thought it was just to keep them from cheating. He told me that he really didn't get the intellectual property issue until law school.
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used2scrap
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,080
Jan 29, 2016 3:02:55 GMT
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Post by used2scrap on Apr 20, 2016 18:32:28 GMT
Yikes that's a tough situation, but yeah we've been talking with the kids about plagiarism and copying others' work since early elementary school. And I know they've addressed it at school in elem and middle school as well.
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Post by bc2ca on Apr 20, 2016 18:33:40 GMT
Good lesson to learn now, but I'm honestly surprised this didn't come up in grades 6-8 when (for us) the research projects really started to happen. Students always had to list their multiple sources for projects. Often they were required to have a minimum number of sources (3-5), with at least one online and one book source.
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Post by lorieann13 on Apr 20, 2016 18:34:24 GMT
He's in Grade 9, and the issue/topic of plagiarism has most likely never come up with him - he honestly had no idea what he'd done, why it was so bad. I have to disagree with this. He's plenty old enough to know that copying and pasting a whole project is cheating. Kids in kindergarten know it's wrong to copy off their classmate's paper. A teen surely knows it's wrong to copy a whole paper off the internet. Sorry you're dealing with this. It's a rough thing to go through and hopefully he learns his lesson fully and does not repeat this, or he's going to have a very tough row to hoe academically. Since dd has had to write a paper or report (starting in 1st grade), her teachers have always discussed what plagiarism is and why it is wrong. She and classmates have also always been told if you do so, you will receive a zero and see the principal. Do I think kids take the seriously and listen? Nope because every year there were abfew kids who copied and pasted and got in trouble.
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peppermintpatty
Pearl Clutcher
Refupea #1345
Posts: 3,946
Jun 26, 2014 17:47:08 GMT
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Post by peppermintpatty on Apr 20, 2016 18:37:34 GMT
If he didn't know then it is a shortcoming of the school system. This is stressed from middle school onward.
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Post by jeremysgirl on Apr 20, 2016 18:38:40 GMT
Good that he learned this lesson now before college. I am working on my masters degree right now and I had a paper due in one of my finance classes. My university has this handy thing where you run your paper through and you can see how much of a match it is to other sources. What I did not realize is that once you submit a paper through there, it goes into their database. I actually ended up reworking an old paper and when I ran it through, it said it was a 50% match. To my old paper. I plagiarized myself. After I discussed it with my professor, he allowed me to write on a completely different topic and submit a fresh paper. But it really was a learning experience for me. I did not know you could plagiarize yourself. And I did not realize that once the paper was submitted, it went into the database. Colleges are getting really savvy about this. There are so many tools now to make sure that your work is original. Good to learn this lesson now.
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Dalai Mama
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La Pea Boheme
Posts: 6,985
Jun 26, 2014 0:31:31 GMT
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Post by Dalai Mama on Apr 20, 2016 18:40:02 GMT
He's in Grade 9, and the issue/topic of plagiarism has most likely never come up with him - he honestly had no idea what he'd done, why it was so bad. I have to disagree with this. He's plenty old enough to know that copying and pasting a whole project is cheating. Kids in kindergarten know it's wrong to copy off their classmate's paper. A teen surely knows it's wrong to copy a whole paper off the internet. Sorry you're dealing with this. It's a rough thing to go through and hopefully he learns his lesson fully and does not repeat this, or he's going to have a very tough row to hoe academically. I'm going to disagree too. Ever since my DSs were in Grade 6 (Toronto District), they've had to submit most projects through turnitin, a website that will tell him immediately if it has been plagiarised either as a whole or in part.
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scrappinmama
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Posts: 5,016
Jun 26, 2014 12:54:09 GMT
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Post by scrappinmama on Apr 20, 2016 18:40:13 GMT
I'm sure he knew what he did was wrong, but he may not have realized just how big of a deal it was. This is an opportunity for your son to learn from, and come out the other side better for it.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Sept 30, 2024 0:40:03 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2016 18:41:29 GMT
I'm glad you realize how important this is, but I totally understand how this copy and paste generation thinks its "no big deal." When ds was in high school 10+ years ago they had just started using the programs that would check for plagiarism. He thought it was just to keep them from cheating. He told me that he really didn't get the intellectual property issue until law school. From the school/student perspective, it IS about preventing cheating. While protecting intellectual property is an important issue, it's not why schools use anti-plagiarism services. They do that to try to protect the integrity of grades and minimize the chances students are turning in work that is not their own.
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Post by gar on Apr 20, 2016 18:41:42 GMT
Even if he didn't know the word surely he knows that copying and pasting an entire project/essay is wrong, for many reasons!
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psiluvu
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Posts: 3,217
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Jun 25, 2014 22:52:26 GMT
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Post by psiluvu on Apr 20, 2016 18:43:24 GMT
That's is too bad for him but hopefully he has learned his lesson.
I have to agree with the others though he should have been aware of plagiarism by grade 9. My ds in grade 7 was doing a project not for a mark but for a heritage fair and he was working on it with two other buddies. I read it over and thought it was really good, a little too good in fact and said I hope you didn't just copy and paste. He said no we didn't plagiarize it, Ryan's sister didn't think it was good enough so she rewrote it, (which is another topic for another thread) but they were all well aware that copying and pasting was wrong and would get them in big trouble.
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Post by hop2 on Apr 20, 2016 18:47:51 GMT
Wow I'm shocked that your school system Doesn't address this prior to grade 9. Here they begin to talk about it in grade 5 and reiterate it AND the penalties every year thereafter. No hard fast penalties until grade7 so they have 2 years to understand it before they have zero tolerance consequences.
I find it kinda weird that a grade 9 kid wpuldnt know what plagiarism was or the consequences. Not to mention that they do know that 'copying' is bad as early as grade 2
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M in Carolina
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Posts: 3,128
Jun 29, 2014 12:11:41 GMT
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Post by M in Carolina on Apr 20, 2016 18:51:58 GMT
There are sites that will sell you a paper. What they probably don't tell you is that you're not the only one to buy that paper.
I had a lot of offers to write people's papers, but at my high school and college, plagiarizing was an expulsion offense.
If you typed or proofread someone's paper (I did this a lot) you could only tell them how many errors and on what pages. You couldn't mark the words. I thought that was little over the top. My poor dh has dyslexia. We'd proofread together with me coaching--do you think that sentence is ok? Really?? Warmer, warmer...
Another part of plagiarism is how to quote a source and how to summarize without basically copying without sourcing. They also don't like it when your whole page is quotes.
I will say that as irritating as it was to write so many papers in high school and college, it really made me a better writer and researcher.
All thanks to my 2nd grade teacher Mrs. Ashworth-Beck who let us kids that finished our board work early do extra credit reports about whatever we wanted in this series of wildlife kids encyclopedias she had. I rushed through my work to do them. She made it fun to learn.
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Post by colleen on Apr 20, 2016 18:57:20 GMT
I'm glad you realize how important this is, but I totally understand how this copy and paste generation thinks its "no big deal." When ds was in high school 10+ years ago they had just started using the programs that would check for plagiarism. He thought it was just to keep them from cheating. He told me that he really didn't get the intellectual property issue until law school. From the school/student perspective, it IS about preventing cheating. While protecting intellectual property is an important issue, it's not why schools use anti-plagiarism services. They do that to try to protect the integrity of grades and minimize the chances students are turning in work that is not their own. You're right, of course. But as a writer, to me it's a much bigger issue. I have friends who have their novels copied and placed online for free -- constantly. So much so that there are now programs to help you find all the places your work has been copied online. It's a moral issue too.
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Post by Zee on Apr 20, 2016 19:04:26 GMT
Kind of hard to believe he's made it to grade 9 never learning the concept of plagiarism, to be honest.
And don't buy his BS that he didn't know copy and paste of an entire article is cheating. He knew he was supposed to be writing a paper, not copying a website. For real.
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Post by kernriver on Apr 20, 2016 19:04:35 GMT
I wouldn't worry about the "permanent record" thing. I cant imagine that a mistake you make in the 9th grade could possibly follow you anywhere.
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Post by cmpeter on Apr 20, 2016 19:09:17 GMT
I am surprised he hasn't been taught about plagerism already, here they learn that in grade school.
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Post by Darcy Collins on Apr 20, 2016 19:14:39 GMT
I wouldn't worry about the "permanent record" thing. I cant imagine that a mistake you make in the 9th grade could possibly follow you anywhere. It can directly impact your ability to get into the college of your choice.
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Post by kernriver on Apr 20, 2016 19:20:52 GMT
I wouldn't worry about the "permanent record" thing. I cant imagine that a mistake you make in the 9th grade could possibly follow you anywhere. It can directly impact your ability to get into the college of your choice. Can you explain this? Is there a section on the transcript that lists such offences? It breaks my heart to think that a 14-15 yo kid could screw himself up so badly over one incident. And ftr, I'm in college now and I live in terror that I might accidently use similar wording to some source I've read. It makes it difficult for me to do any research because I am so busy writing down sources.
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Post by Darcy Collins on Apr 20, 2016 19:26:49 GMT
It can directly impact your ability to get into the college of your choice. Can you explain this? Is there a section on the transcript that lists such offences? It breaks my heart to think that a 14-15 yo kid could screw himself up so badly over one incident. And ftr, I'm in college now and I live in terror that I might accidently use similar wording to some source I've read. It makes it difficult for me to do any research because I am so busy writing down sources. There is a disciplinary action section on transcripts - not all though would include a non-suspension offense. There is also sometimes a specific question on the school portion of the application that asks about academic dishonesty. I actually knew someone who had their college admission revoked when they were suspended for plagiarism their senior year.
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Post by littlemama on Apr 20, 2016 19:45:26 GMT
Add me to the list of people who are shocked that #1, your schools have never discussed plagiarism and #2, that your son didn't know that copying and pasting someone else's work is wrong!
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Kerri W
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,788
Location: Kentucky
Jun 25, 2014 20:31:44 GMT
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Post by Kerri W on Apr 20, 2016 19:46:50 GMT
Yeah...I think he's trying to pull one over on all of you. There's no way he doesn't know about plagiarism in 9th grade. Maybe didn't think it would be treated as seriously as it is, but he had to have known what it was and that it was wrong. DD1 actually had something similar happen in 9th grade. She was supposed to write a speech using song lyrics and tell what they meant to her. So she copy and pasted song lyrics *and cited them* in the speech assignment she handed in. We got a call from the teacher, DH and I met with him, he explained the assignment and tried to explain why it was plagiarism. DH asked him to explain the assignment 27 different ways and we still left completely confused how what she did was plagiarizing when she was told to USE song lyrics and cite them. This teacher is known to be an absolute drama king so we told him to go ahead with whatever the school's repercussions were and we would talk to DD. We did stress what plagiarizing was and made sure she understood the seriousness of it but also let her know that we didn't "get" why what she did was wrong either. It was actually pretty bizarre. It didn't affect her getting into college thankfully
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Dalai Mama
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Posts: 6,985
Jun 26, 2014 0:31:31 GMT
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Post by Dalai Mama on Apr 20, 2016 19:50:11 GMT
Can you explain this? Is there a section on the transcript that lists such offences? It breaks my heart to think that a 14-15 yo kid could screw himself up so badly over one incident. And ftr, I'm in college now and I live in terror that I might accidently use similar wording to some source I've read. It makes it difficult for me to do any research because I am so busy writing down sources. There is a disciplinary action section on transcripts - not all though would include a non-suspension offense. There is also sometimes a specific question on the school portion of the application that asks about academic dishonesty. I actually knew someone who had their college admission revoked when they were suspended for plagiarism their senior year. And I can understand a college revoking admission if the issue happened in their senior year.
Grade 9, not so much.
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Post by katiejane on Apr 20, 2016 19:56:54 GMT
I struggle to believe that no one at school every taught him that copying is not on. Even back in the old days with books you couldn't just copy paragraph by hand. Its just one of those things you learn.
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Post by pierkiss on Apr 20, 2016 20:00:37 GMT
I'm pretty surprised your sons not been exposed to the idea of and the word plagiarism before. I for sure remember being talked to about it in 6th grade. Seems odd that it's never been talked about before now.
Anyways, I'm glad he hopefully has learned his lesson now, instead of in college where they expell you! I hope he never does it again!
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Post by 950nancy on Apr 20, 2016 20:11:01 GMT
If he didn't know then it is a shortcoming of the school system. This is stressed from middle school onward. In my experience, elementary school onward. I highly doubt it is the school's fault. I am sure he has heard about it and it was flying round in his brain, but now he concretely understands the consequences. If it is going to happen, the younger the better.
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StephDRebel
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Posts: 6,691
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Jul 5, 2014 1:53:49 GMT
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Post by StephDRebel on Apr 20, 2016 20:13:39 GMT
Please consider going the 'you know cheating is wrong, here ate your consequences' route (and make them matter) vs the 'my poor baby boy, I can't believe the school never bothered to teach you to be ethical' route.
These are the situations that give us the opportunity to parent, or show them that they can claim to not know a small detail (in this case, not knowing the word plagiarism doesn't change the decision he made to cheat) and get away with anything.
In my experience, as soon as they figure out that we will defend their cruddy choices and behaviors because they just didn't get it or find some little excuse that might semi_work, they start to see what else they can get us to defend/what else they can get away with.
This would be an incident my freshman wouldn't forget ever.
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Post by utmr on Apr 20, 2016 20:15:24 GMT
Good that he learned this lesson now before college. I am working on my masters degree right now and I had a paper due in one of my finance classes. My university has this handy thing where you run your paper through and you can see how much of a match it is to other sources. What I did not realize is that once you submit a paper through there, it goes into their database. I actually ended up reworking an old paper and when I ran it through, it said it was a 50% match. To my old paper. I plagiarized myself. After I discussed it with my professor, he allowed me to write on a completely different topic and submit a fresh paper. But it really was a learning experience for me. I did not know you could plagiarize yourself. And I did not realize that once the paper was submitted, it went into the database. Colleges are getting really savvy about this. There are so many tools now to make sure that your work is original. Good to learn this lesson now. This just seems so wrong! Copying someone else's work, photo, etc - wrong. Revising *your own* earlier work - how is that plagiarism?!?!?! If professor Smith assigns a paper on a topic, and professor Jones assigns a paper on a similar topic, then why reinvent the wheel? It's *your* work. This I don't understand.
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