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Post by jackie on Jul 31, 2014 12:04:43 GMT
My 18 year-old ds and I had an interesting discussion about this (losing virginity) and I wondered what the peas thoughts were. The whole discussion started in talking about his 15 year-old sister and my concerns and worries for her.
Anyway, he said that "losing your virginity" (and I wish I could remember how he put it exactly) is an outdated concept. He feels that it is a made up construction by society used to devalue or shame women and that the whole concept of it is silly. What do you think?
I mean obviously becoming sexually active is a big deal and the decision to begin becoming sexually active shouldn't be taken lightly, but is this idea of "virginity" silly? And really, how does this all work with bisexual or homosexual couples? If a woman has to have vaginal penetration to lose her virginity, does that mean that a lesbian couple having sex are both virgins forever? For men, where do they have to penetrate in order to be no longer considered a "virgin"?
So, what do all of you think and what do you tell your teens about sex--is it important to wait? Do you "insist" on them waiting (not that we really have control over that) and if so, why?
I'm very interested on hearing some different opinions.
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grinningcat
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Jun 26, 2014 13:06:35 GMT
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Post by grinningcat on Jul 31, 2014 12:14:09 GMT
I think it's outdated in the sense of having to marry a virgin or marry as a virgin. I think that sex is too important in a relationship to wait until you're legally bound to someone to find out that you are completely incompatible in bed. I also think that sex is something that isn't necessary to be exclusive to marriage, so it's an outdate concept in that sense. And that's really as deep as I can go this early in the morning, so I hope that makes sense.
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johnnysmom
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Jun 25, 2014 21:16:33 GMT
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Post by johnnysmom on Jul 31, 2014 12:22:22 GMT
Hmmm, interesting to hear a teen's point of view on it. As for which "act" constitutes losing "it" I don't really know. I guess for myself while I did "stuff", I technically considered myself a virgin until actual intercourse occurred though looking back that's probably not really accurate. As for my kids, the oldest is only 13 so we're not quite there yet (though probably closer than I care to think much about). I won't insist that they wait for marriage or engagement. My only hope is that it's done with mutual desire and respect, that they care about and possibly love each other. And of course that they both protect themselves against pregnancy and disease. I want him to look back on his first time fondly, not with regret. If I could put an age on that first time, I'd say at minimum 16, 17 or older would be nice
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Post by Merge on Jul 31, 2014 12:23:30 GMT
I agree with your son. I dislike the notion of "purity" as it is frequently used, to mean someone who has not had sex. Someone who is sexually active is not "dirty" or "impure."
When I talked with my teen about sex, there was no discussion of "saving herself" or staying "pure." We talked instead about making healthy choices, putting her schoolwork and future opportunity first before any boy, the reality that birth control is not 100% effective, and that her dad and I will always love and support her. And I hope I conveyed to her that the discussion is always open if she has questions or if I feel something else needs to be said. I also made it clear to her that birth control will be provided for her, without shaming, should she need it.
That's it. The flip side if that is that while she's a young teen, we don't put her in situations where sex is a possibility. She isn't allowed to date at 13. Boyfriend sleepovers will never be allowed while she's a minor living at home. I know that when she's older we won't be able to control where she goes and who she is with, so we're going to use these next couple of years to make sure the messages about making responsible choices in all areas of her life are getting through.
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Post by Barbie on Jul 31, 2014 12:24:20 GMT
We aren't religious, so there's not that piece to this. But I always told my daughter (26 and married) and now my stepdaughter (17) that having sex is a BIG deal. And one that teenagers aren't typically able to handle appropriately from a psychological and emotional perspective. They don't realize they don't have the tools, but they just don't. I don't want them to be ashamed of sexuality, but I want them to protect themselves both physically and emotionally from a relationship they aren't really ready for. My daughter didn't tell me when she lost her virginity--I'm guessing it was sometime at college. (She went to college 4,000 miles from home, so we didn't see her except at Christmas and summers.) I know she and her husband lived together for more than 2 years before they married last summer. I have no reason to believe stepdaughter has had sex yet. She knows she's not ready for that. But she does have a boyfriend of nearly 6 months now. They mostly hang out at our house or his, and parents are always home. His parents are just as strict about that as we are.
Stepdaughter did tell me something last week that I've been pondering…her mother told her that the only reason she married her father is because she'd been taught that if you have sex with someone, you have to marry them. He was her first, in college. So she's been adamant that DD doesn't make the same mistake and tells her she doesn't have to marry someone to have sex with them. I fear she's encouraging a more casual attitude than her father or I would.
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Post by leslie132 on Jul 31, 2014 12:30:01 GMT
This is a deep question....no pun intended.
I guess that when I was 18 losing my virginity was the whole penetration concept. Now times are changing in regards to a more open, and I hope accepting level of different sexual interests. (Yes, when I was 18 there were same sex relationships. It just wasn't as commonly discussed or seen.).
So having said that I would say that the term "losing your virginity" is dated. Sometimes it can be correlated to doing something for the first time. Meaning if I choose to interact with a woman for the first time, I lost my virginity in that new activity. Like getting your first tattoo.... Some people comment that I'm a virgin at this. So maybe dated isn't the word. Just evolving.
And even though it is changing, as life and times change. I still think it should be discussed. I will teach my sons about what being a virgin is and explain that once you lose it, you can't get it back. And because sex isn't just about penetration, it should be about attraction and respect for each other, that this isn't something you want to lose....just to lose.
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Post by LavenderLayoutLady on Jul 31, 2014 12:31:51 GMT
It's such a gray area in my mind. Because, like as you said, what about lesbian & gay couples? At what point is it considered losing one's virginity?
In my younger years I didn't consider oral sex, sex. Now I do.
So, I do agree with your son that virginity tends to be used as a yardstick to measure a woman's value upon. Being a virgin, with a hymen intact, somehow makes one more desirable? And why was a man's virginity never valued to begin with?
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Post by leslie132 on Jul 31, 2014 12:35:54 GMT
And Id to say..... With this last post I am cruising to being a THROBBING MEMBER! Love it
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Post by 4evercrafty on Jul 31, 2014 12:50:08 GMT
Interesting topic, I would say that the first time you are both naked and doing stuff down south is having sex. Be it homosexual and heterosexual, what is sex and what is fooling around is some other stuff to consider. Like the first time I was with a "individual" and we both did the whole naked things and oh man, could I be more vague? lol. Just touching over the clothes, and doing various other actions like oral is not loosing your virginity, maybe it should be cause after that you are pretty much headed south, in your body not geographically
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Post by hop2 on Jul 31, 2014 12:50:31 GMT
I think the whole concept of virginity for females is and always was a method if control. Of course the traditional concept of how sacred virginity is for females and not so much for males is a bit barbaric if you ask me. I see no reason, especially with the invention if birth control, for females to 'have' to retain virginity any more than males should unless it is what they personally want.
To me, it goes hand in hand with other body choices. Your body your choice, as long as you are well informed and know the truth. Frankly, in today's society, in some areas, information about that topic is as hard to get and discuss as it was years ago. The amount of misinformation and lies told to teens in some places is astounding.
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Post by 4evercrafty on Jul 31, 2014 12:51:10 GMT
In a virginity thread, that´s priceless!!!
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Post by brina on Jul 31, 2014 13:08:33 GMT
I have seen far too many young adults rush into a marriage that was not well thought out or a relationship that was not healthy because they had been told they must be married before they had sex. If a couple marries in their teens, before finishing college, the chances of either or both of them finishing plummets. I am not saying it never happens. There are those who will continue to pursue their educational goals after being married and even after having a baby. However, statistically speaking, it is far less likely to happen then if they postpone marriage until after they have completed their education. Based on that I have told my boys - age 14 - that I do not expect them to remain virgins until their wedding night. I do expect them to make intelligent decisions, to be in a relationship, not just a one night stand, and to be 100% certain that this is what both partners want. There should be no coercion on either side and they have just as much right to say no as the woman they are with.
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Deleted
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Oct 7, 2024 2:15:59 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2014 13:23:46 GMT
I hate the term losing your virginity. Hate with a passion. Anyway where I stand is that it is foolish to teach children they have to wait until marriage. This causes two things to happen mainly: #1 they rush into a marriage just to have sex. #2 they hide having sex and are not informed/protected/safe about it because they have no one they can talk to about.
Ones sexuality is THEIRS and no one else's. They can choose to be active or not on their own.
The whole new "purity" concept with jewelry and balls, etc is just completely and utterly misogynsitic claptrap. A father does not own their daughters sexuality. Ick.
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Post by dulcemama on Jul 31, 2014 13:31:23 GMT
I agree with this. I would add that the concept of virginity is independent of whatever your beliefs are regarding when and under what circumstances sex is o.k. I think you can teach that you should wait until marriage or until a certain age without using the concept of virginity.
DD is only 10yo but we have talked about sex and I have told her that sex is for adults and that she will probably starting thinking about it before it would be a healthy choice for her. I will be elaborating as she gets older but hope to avoid the idea of virginity, although I'm sure she will hear it from others around her.
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grinningcat
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Post by grinningcat on Jul 31, 2014 13:33:19 GMT
I hate the term losing your virginity. Hate with a passion. Anyway where I stand is that it is foolish to teach children they have to wait until marriage. This causes two things to happen mainly: #1 they rush into a marriage just to have sex. #2 they hide having sex and are not informed/protected/safe about it because they have no one they can talk to about. Ones sexuality is THEIRS and no one else's. They can choose to be active or not on their own. The whole new "purity" concept with jewelry and balls, etc is just completely and utterly misogynsitic claptrap. A father does not own their daughters sexuality. Ick. I totally agree with this. I recently read an article about a father daughter dance that was all about the daughter staying pure for the father. It was so disgusting that the daughters allowed such power to be exerted over her and that the fathers had such a controlling personality that they had to control their daughters in such a manner. I have to wonder what else these fathers control... does the daughter have any personal choice at all?
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Post by myshelly on Jul 31, 2014 13:34:35 GMT
I agree with your son.
I dislike the societal construct of virginity especially as it applies to women.
I hope my kids don't "wait" until marriage. That's not something I believe in or encourage.
I think mixing religious beliefs with sex is stupid and pointless and does much more harm than good.
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pyccku
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Post by pyccku on Jul 31, 2014 13:34:49 GMT
I just read The Purity Myth a couple of weeks ago and it was really interesting: www.amazon.com/The-Purity-Myth-Obsession-Virginity/dp/1580053149She made the same points - especially with homosexuals, how do you say that virginity has been lost? And if it is only standard penetration, that leads to the phenomenon of kids doing 'everything but' in order to remain virgins. there's always been that double standard - a good woman is pure and not interested overly in sexuality, while a good man needs to show that he is virile and still able to perform. Any woman who actually enjoys sex is not quite acceptable, but it's assumed that a man wants it at all times with as many people as he can find. the idea of the dad owning his daughter's sexuality icks me out. Just as much as the idea of a mom owning her son's sexuality. If the dad is supposed to be protector of his children, why not protect the sons the same way? Kids need to be educated because sooner or later, they are pretty much all going to be sexually active. It's one of those skills you need to have as an adult - how to make good decisions about sexual partners, how to choose the right BC, etc. The idea of "just say no" means that when they get to the point when they ARE active, they won't have the basic knowledge to protect themselves.
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stittsygirl
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Post by stittsygirl on Jul 31, 2014 13:36:53 GMT
I agree it's outdated, controlling, and can create a lot of emotional and psychological issues for people, particularly women, if they are raised believing they're somehow "less worthy" if they don't enter a marriage with their virginity intact. In the Mormon culture I was raised in we had Sunday lessons comparing those who had somehow slipped to "chewed gum" or "licked cupcakes". Not healthy or constructive teachings to be raising teens on.
My kids know I don't expect them to remain virgins until married. Our mantra is safe/responsible/consensual/legal, and we've discussed every aspect of that many times.
ETA: I have no problem with those who choose to remain virgins until marriage or whatever for their own personal reasons. My issues are with those who use the concepts of virginity and "purity" to control and guilt young people.
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anniebygaslight
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Post by anniebygaslight on Jul 31, 2014 13:45:43 GMT
I think your son has a very good point. The idea of virginity being an essential requisite of a bride has its basis in ancient cultural and religious backgrounds, many of which oppress women and treat them as chattels.
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Post by moveablefeast on Jul 31, 2014 14:03:29 GMT
I don't know that I would call the concept of virginity outdated. But I don't find it useful.
I believe that sex is an expression of love, and is meant to bond a couple together. But I also believe it's meant to be shared between people in a permanent committed relationship. That's my belief and what I am teaching my child - that when you have sex with someone you are giving yourself as a gift, every time (not just the first time), and who you give that gift to and how matters.
For the most part, save some particular extremes, I think sexual "incompatibility" can be overcome by communication and by putting each other's needs as a top priority. I don't think I personally buy it as an argument.
I don't play the "what is sex and what isn't" semantic game. Intimate activity is intimate activity. Yes, lesbian sex is sex.
The reason I don't make the distinction is because I think it comes out of trying to figure out how far you can go before you are "breaking the rules". That's not a concept that I really believe in - one of my favorite teachers on this topic (Christopher West - a Catholic theologian) helpfully says that the converse question is "What sets me free to love as God intended?" I think when I was younger and trying to figure things out I was always trying to find the line marked "no" and now I understand that there is this really great "yes" I can live in with freedom and joy. In that context "losing virginity" is not really an important concept.
That's not to say it is not difficult and has not at times been costly on a personal level. Just that I have a different perspective after 15 years of marriage. The benefit of hindsight is pretty significant for me.
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Post by Zee on Jul 31, 2014 14:20:32 GMT
I've always hated the idea that the virginal vagina is done sort of sacred gift to be given only on a wedding night, guarded closely by a father before then. Gross. A girl should be able to choose that for herself. I do wish, however, that girls and boys would be a bit smarter about who they sleep with, and not rush into things they don't have the emotional maturity to deal with.
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Post by mellyw on Jul 31, 2014 14:31:13 GMT
I hate the term losing your virginity. Hate with a passion. Anyway where I stand is that it is foolish to teach children they have to wait until marriage. This causes two things to happen mainly: #1 they rush into a marriage just to have sex. #2 they hide having sex and are not informed/protected/safe about it because they have no one they can talk to about. Ones sexuality is THEIRS and no one else's. They can choose to be active or not on their own. The whole new "purity" concept with jewelry and balls, etc is just completely and utterly misogynsitic claptrap. A father does not own their daughters sexuality. Ick. I could not agree with Scrapower more, took the words right out of my mouth. With my now 20 year old DD, we never encouraged anything beyond being safe. As scrapower said, her sexuality is her own. We were always there to answer questions, but that's it. And the purity crap, father owning the daughters sexuality. Ick doesn't even cover how I feel about all that. Just not right.
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Post by gotranch on Jul 31, 2014 14:43:04 GMT
What about the 1 out of 4 girls who have been sexually abused? Their virginity was stolen from them. They did not get to make that choice and often that abuse propels them into a sexually active pattern with others than the abuser at an early age.
Hate the term virginity. Hate the whole concept that society puts on it.
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Post by compwalla on Jul 31, 2014 14:45:26 GMT
I hate the term losing your virginity. Hate with a passion. Anyway where I stand is that it is foolish to teach children they have to wait until marriage. This causes two things to happen mainly: #1 they rush into a marriage just to have sex. #2 they hide having sex and are not informed/protected/safe about it because they have no one they can talk to about. Ones sexuality is THEIRS and no one else's. They can choose to be active or not on their own. The whole new "purity" concept with jewelry and balls, etc is just completely and utterly misogynsitic claptrap. A father does not own their daughters sexuality. Ick. This is where I've been for a long time. A person doesn't lose anything when they begin sexual activity. They gain experience. I have never liked the idea of a woman's "maidenhead" protected and then given as a gift to her husband. Blerg. The whole idea just gives me the willies. We are trying very hard to raise our kids in a sex-positive environment where they are empowered with the knowledge to make decisions about sexuality wisely with respect for themselves and their partners.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2014 15:04:38 GMT
Anyway, he said that "losing your virginity" (and I wish I could remember how he put it exactly) is an outdated concept. He feels that it is a made up construction by society used to devalue or shame women and that the whole concept of it is silly. What do you think? I agree with your son. I think the whole idea of virginity itself being a big deal is geared towards putting value to a woman for it. I hate it! I'm not saying I don't think sex is a big deal when you are young. I think until you are old enough to handle the consequences from it, it is a big deal. My son is only 12 now, but I do not expect him to wait until marriage. I hope he waits until he's out of high school, but that is only because I don't want him to have a kid in high school. Don't even get me started on those purity rings/contracts....
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Dalai Mama
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Jun 26, 2014 0:31:31 GMT
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Post by Dalai Mama on Jul 31, 2014 15:37:38 GMT
Anyway, he said that "losing your virginity" (and I wish I could remember how he put it exactly) is an outdated concept. He feels that it is a made up construction by society used to devalue or shame women and that the whole concept of it is silly. What do you think? I agree with your son and I'm more than a little impressed with the way that he articulated it. Don't get me wrong, I would much prefer that my kids not be sexually active until they have the emotional and physical maturity to deal with all of the possible consequences. But I don't see the benefit of hanging onto one's virginity for the sake of some outdated purity construct.
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Post by sunshine36616 on Jul 31, 2014 15:43:29 GMT
What a mature young man! I agree. I remember Elizabeth Smart saying how horrible she felt after being raped because she had been raised in a "purity" culture and now felt dirty and filthy.
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Post by snappinsami on Jul 31, 2014 15:49:07 GMT
I hate the term losing your virginity. Hate with a passion. Anyway where I stand is that it is foolish to teach children they have to wait until marriage. This causes two things to happen mainly: #1 they rush into a marriage just to have sex. #2 they hide having sex and are not informed/protected/safe about it because they have no one they can talk to about. Ones sexuality is THEIRS and no one else's. They can choose to be active or not on their own. The whole new "purity" concept with jewelry and balls, etc is just completely and utterly misogynsitic claptrap. A father does not own their daughters sexuality. Ick. Just clicking the Like button wasn't enough for this. I needed to quote it because it so clearly mirrors my own feelings.
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Post by PinkPrincess77 on Jul 31, 2014 16:37:38 GMT
I'd say that you have a very smart son and I agree with Scrappower 100%.
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perumbula
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Post by perumbula on Jul 31, 2014 16:47:50 GMT
What a mature young man! I agree. I remember Elizabeth Smart saying how horrible she felt after being raped because she had been raised in a "purity" culture and now felt dirty and filthy. Miss Smart would have felt dirty and filthy and hated what happened to her no matter how she was brought up. Blaming the being raised in the Mormon church for her feeling awful about being raped is ridiculous. Who the heck would be ok with being raped??? I also object to the way this topic always always makes the assumption that people who believe in chastity only want it for our girls. Nope. It's just as important for my sons as it is for my girls. No we don't want our boys to "prove their virility" anymore than my husband "owns" our daughters purity. It's all on them. When you have sex is a very personal decision. and for the record, I find the concept of "virginity" a bit useless as well. In the religion I believe in, we have a Savior who made it possible to repent of our sin. You can make choices that aren't in line with your faith and it can be ok later with repentance. Girls who choose to have sex outside of marriage aren't licked cupcakes or chewed gum. They are beautiful vibrant young women who made a choice. They can choose to keep following that path (and they are still beautiful, vibrant young women) or they can turn around and go back to choosing not to have sex. It's up to them and the consequences for either choice will all be on them.
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