|
Post by myshelly on Jul 31, 2014 16:52:31 GMT
What a mature young man! I agree. I remember Elizabeth Smart saying how horrible she felt after being raped because she had been raised in a "purity" culture and now felt dirty and filthy. Miss Smart would have felt dirty and filthy and hated what happened to her no matter how she was brought up. Blaming the being raised in the Mormon church for her feeling awful about being raped is ridiculous. Who the heck would be ok with being raped??? I also object to the way this topic always always makes the assumption that people who believe in chastity only want it for our girls. Nope. It's just as important for my sons as it is for my girls. No we don't want our boys to "prove their virility" anymore than my husband "owns" our daughters purity. It's all on them. When you have sex is a very personal decision. and for the record, I find the concept of "virginity" a bit useless as well. In the religion I believe in, we have a Savior who made it possible to repent of our sin. You can make choices that aren't in line with your faith and it can be ok later with repentance. Girls who choose to have sex outside of marriage aren't licked cupcakes or chewed gum. They are beautiful vibrant young women who made a choice. They can choose to keep following that path (and they are still beautiful, vibrant young women) or they can turn around and go back to choosing not to have sex. It's up to them and the consequences for either choice will all be on them. Miss Smart herself is the one who made those comments. I don't think anyone has the right to debate her feelings with her. She's been giving speeches on the topic recently - it wasn't just something that pea made up.
|
|
|
Post by compwalla on Jul 31, 2014 16:56:12 GMT
What she said is that the reason she didn't run away or try to escape is because the purity culture she was raised in made her believe she was ruined and no one else would ever want her. That she was, after being raped, a used piece of gum that no one else would want so why bother trying to escape? Internalizing this delayed her rescue for many months.
|
|
stittsygirl
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,600
Location: In the leaves and rain.
Jun 25, 2014 19:57:33 GMT
|
Post by stittsygirl on Jul 31, 2014 17:17:18 GMT
Notes:
Death is preferable to fornication according to the LDS Church.
The Miracle of Forgiveness is the book given to every LDS member who confesses to committing a sin.
“There is no true Latter-day Saint who would not rather bury a son or a daughter than to have him or her lose his or her chastity – realizing that chastity is of more value than anything else in all the world.”
- Prophet Heber J. Grant, Gospel Standards, complied by G. Homer Durham, p. 55
“Also far-reaching is the effect of loss of chastity. Once given or taken or stolen it can never be regained. Even in a forced contact such as rape or incest, the injured one is greatly outraged. If she has not cooperated and contributed to the foul deed, she is of course in a more favorable position. There is no condemnation when there is no voluntary participation. It is better to die in defending one’s virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle.”
- Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, LDS Prophet, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 196
“Among the most common sexual sins our young people commit are necking and petting. Not only do these improper relations often lead to fornication, pregnancy, and abortions – all ugly sins – but in and of themselves they are pernicious evils...”
- Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 65
“President David O. McKay has pleaded: Your virtue is worth more than your life. Please, young folk, preserve your virtue even if you lose your lives.”
- Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, LDS Prophet, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 63
“I know what my mother expects. I know what she’s saying in her prayers. She’d rather have me come home dead than unclean.” - Gordon B. Hinckley, Conference Report, April 1967, pp. 51-55 LINK
Just a taste of what LDS leadership have said and perpetuated through the years about the Mormon concepts of chastity and virtue, things that Elizabeth Smart would have been taught and obviously took to heart as well. I'm so glad she's spoken out against them since. The "chewed gum" analogy was taught to our girls while I was in the YW's leadership, only eight years ago perumbula, so if they've stopped outright teaching it since then, good for them. But please don't discredit what many of us experienced, including me, growing up in the extremely patriarchal Mormon religion, which still has an overbearing and creepy interest in the sexuality of its members that often crosses too many boundaries, especially with the youth. I've seen personally the damage it can cause.
|
|
|
Post by gar on Jul 31, 2014 17:21:15 GMT
Wow......
|
|
anniebygaslight
Drama Llama
I'd love a cup of tea. #1966
Posts: 7,402
Location: Third Rock from the sun.
Jun 28, 2014 14:08:19 GMT
|
Post by anniebygaslight on Jul 31, 2014 17:22:53 GMT
|
|
|
Post by melanell on Jul 31, 2014 17:23:10 GMT
I don't really know how to put into words my thoughts on this.
I do know that I don't really understand the notion of feeling free to do anything else with as many people as you want so long as you abstains from actual intercourse so that you can retain that label of still being a virgin.
Although sometimes I wonder if the people really are about keeping that label for themselves or if they fear disappointment or disapproval from others and that is why it is important to them to be able to technically be a virgin, so to speak.
But I guess everyone has their own definition of virginity for themselves, whether it matches up with Webster's definition or any other person's definition or not.
|
|
grinningcat
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,663
Jun 26, 2014 13:06:35 GMT
|
Post by grinningcat on Jul 31, 2014 17:25:39 GMT
Stittsygirl... Ho.Lee.Crap. That's atrocious. I knew LDS held chastity highy but not that they recommend death as the alternative. That's positively disgusting.
|
|
scrapaddie
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,090
Jul 8, 2014 20:17:31 GMT
|
Post by scrapaddie on Jul 31, 2014 17:26:58 GMT
What a mature young man! I agree. I remember Elizabeth Smart saying how horrible she felt after being raped because she had been raised in a "purity" culture and now felt dirty and filthy. I felt dirty after my house was broken into... The thought of someone rifling through my drawers creeped me out..... I cannot imagine having my body violated..... I think everyone would have to deal with feelings like this, "purity culture" or not
|
|
Dalai Mama
Drama Llama
La Pea Boheme
Posts: 6,985
Jun 26, 2014 0:31:31 GMT
|
Post by Dalai Mama on Jul 31, 2014 17:27:31 GMT
I think that anyone who prefers death to fornication is fornicating all wrong.
|
|
stittsygirl
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,600
Location: In the leaves and rain.
Jun 25, 2014 19:57:33 GMT
|
Post by stittsygirl on Jul 31, 2014 18:00:50 GMT
Having been out of the LDS church for six years I don't know how the subject of sexual purity is handled now. But as long as copies of The Miracle of Forgiveness, written by former LDS prophet Spencer W. Kimball (the LDS prophet when I was growing up) are still being circulated in the church, and I believe they are, then the teaching that death is preferable to sexual impurity is still out there and accepted to be words of a prophet of god. I'm not meaning to turn this into bashing Mormonism thread, but only to show the kind of attitudes I was raised on and why I feel so differently today, as well as to validate what Elizabeth Smart would have also experienced being raised in the Mormon church.
|
|
|
Post by compwalla on Jul 31, 2014 18:09:26 GMT
Whatever the official line of the church is, it doesn't invalidate what Elizabeth Smart said in her own words - that what she internalized from church teachings is that she was worthless after being raped. It is quite something to tell a woman who endured the absolute worst for months on end that how she feels about her own experience should be dismissed because her church and members of her church are uncomfortable with what she learned while growing up there.
|
|
J u l e e
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,531
Location: Cincinnati
Jun 28, 2014 2:50:47 GMT
|
Post by J u l e e on Jul 31, 2014 18:19:10 GMT
I was raised with a Christian standard (no sex before marriage) and absolutely NO information or conversation to go along with it. Just a rule. And lots of guilt.
I have since chosen Christianity on my own. But I see things so differently than how it was presented and "lived" in my home of origin. My faith barely resembles that of my mother.
We believe in giving our daughter information and having ongoing conversations about sex (as well as tons of other things - food, clothing, piercings, tattoos, colored hair, friendships, dating, interests, activities, etc.), and her choices are her own.
|
|
|
Post by penny on Jul 31, 2014 19:16:00 GMT
I was raised in a conservative Christian home and there was no talk about sex, except "no sex until marriage"... I, of course, knew there were other things other than male/female penetrative sex, but the rule was "no sex" so I pretty much figured as long as I didn't do that one thing, I was still a virgin and so I was still good? pure? doing the right thing?...
I know now that what my parents meant wasn't that the 'boundary' was sex but that it was sexually activity... But I'm not even sure if they knew, or know now, where specifically that boundary is - there's just never any talking about it... Holding hands would be okay, hand on breast wouldn't be... But hand on knee - probably okay... Hand on thigh - probably not okay... It sounds odd to break it down into specifics like that, but without any discussion like that I took their "no sex" rule absolutely literally...
Looking back, things that I considered equal - ie. oral sex for a male vs oral sex for a female, I no longer consider equal... I consider both equal in the sense of infidelity/commitment and grade/level (?) of sexual activity... But in terms of the emotional/psychological aspects of each, for me personally, they're different... I wouldn't expect others to feel the same, but if I ever have children, I'd share that side of my experiences with them... Some things may not be considered as heavily sexual, but can feel much more intimate... I think that intimacy and the emotional/psychological side of sex is the most important part to consider and to talk about...
|
|
|
Post by jackie on Aug 1, 2014 12:59:34 GMT
I love all of the comments and thoughtful discourse. I wasn't sure how this would go so it was nice to read what everyone had to say. Thank you too for the compliments about my ds. When we first started talking I thought "where is t his going? is this going to be a conversation touting a big ol' sexual free-for-all?". As he started explaining his thoughts it really made me think and I had to agree with what he was saying. He's always been someone who has a real strong sense of fairness and equality and I love him for that. It's funny because when I read that question aloud "Are you a feminist?" from a previous thread, my dh's initial answer was "no" and then went on to explain. My dh is a wonderful man and when he explained his answer, I understood what he was getting at but still thought his answer should be "yes!". I asked my ds the same question later and he said "yes" and I told him his dad's answer. He said "Well if dad said 'no' it just means he doesn't understand what feminism is." Oooh! I was really glad we had the virginity discussion though and that I read everything all of you had to say. Now that my dd is 15, I know that she's thinking a lot more about sexual activity. This will help me to really form my thoughts around discussions I want to have with her (yes, we have talked about sex before but I'm sure we will continue talking about it). Ultimately all decisions about sexual activity will be her choice, but I want to be there to help guide her. And I want to do it reasonably and lovingly, without judgment. Lastly, it was awful to read some of the comments/teachings made to girls about their virginity in the name of religion. That's some scary, nasty stuff.
|
|