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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2014 0:54:33 GMT
I find it ironic that so many on this thread are talking about compromise. What would the point of the legislature compromising if the executive branch could then choose to only implement the aspects of a law they agree with. This is a constitutional issue. The executive branch cannot nullify or delay aspects of a signed law. Although I certainly am not going to argue that the fact that actually implementing the ACA as written would be extremely unpopular and hurt Democrats in the midterm election isn't playing a role in driving the issue. It is too late for compromise. The law has been signed and should be followed unless the correct procedures are followed to CHANGE it. If we as a country allow ANY president the leeway to pick and choose what laws are enforced, we are doomed as a country. It seems to be happening with immigration also and I think that is what concerns me the most. It seems that there is a very dangerous game of chicken being played between the legislative and executive branches and it isn't going to end well for the American people regardless of whether or not you are a D or an R. I don't like the idea of this lawsuit because I don't think it can end well for either party involved, but I'm not really sure what the Republicans are supposed to do. Should they ignore the blatant disregard for the law just because they might end up with egg on their face? Should they go through with impeachment procedures? It is just such a shame that it has come to this, and there is plenty of blame to go around. Anyone who thinks a law as complex as the ACA wouldn't need some changes is, to put as nicely as I can, kidding themselves. To realize changes need to be made and not do so is irresponsible. Normally one would go through the House & Senate for the changes but what do think the chances of that happening with a Republican lead House who tried to repeal the ACA what 40-50 times and the Senate with Mitch aka Mr. Filibuster? Talk about a hostile environment.
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Post by *KatyCupcake* on Aug 3, 2014 1:05:16 GMT
It is too late for compromise. The law has been signed and should be followed unless the correct procedures are followed to CHANGE it. If we as a country allow ANY president the leeway to pick and choose what laws are enforced, we are doomed as a country. It seems to be happening with immigration also and I think that is what concerns me the most. It seems that there is a very dangerous game of chicken being played between the legislative and executive branches and it isn't going to end well for the American people regardless of whether or not you are a D or an R. I don't like the idea of this lawsuit because I don't think it can end well for either party involved, but I'm not really sure what the Republicans are supposed to do. Should they ignore the blatant disregard for the law just because they might end up with egg on their face? Should they go through with impeachment procedures? It is just such a shame that it has come to this, and there is plenty of blame to go around. Anyone who thinks a law as complex as the ACA wouldn't need some changes is, to put as nicely as I can, kidding themselves. To realize changes need to be made and not do so is irresponsible. Normally one would go through the House & Senate for the changes but what do think the chances of that happening with a Republican lead House who tried to repeal the ACA what 40-50 times and the Senate with Mitch aka Mr. Filibuster? Talk about a hostile environment. Doesn't matter if there's filibuster. That's a part of the Constitutionally established process for writing laws and making changes to existing laws. As president, you don't get to act outside of the Constitution that you swore to protect and defend because you're scared of a filibuster. The President was kidding himself when he thought his ACA bill was perfect. He campaigned on that bill and that's his legacy. If it was awesome enough to be signed into law, then it shouldn't need executive acts to fix things- because something THAT huge, THAT impacting, THAT EXPENSIVE, and THAT INVASIVE on the American citizenry should not be rushed through without careful and purposeful thought and attention to detail. If there are issues that require part of the law to be postponed, then the entire law should be postponed and the proper legislative process allowed to work out the details.
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Post by lucyg on Aug 3, 2014 1:10:30 GMT
Filibuster isn't in the Constitution. And any law that big will need tweaking. It's ridiculous to pretend otherwise.
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Post by *KatyCupcake* on Aug 3, 2014 1:12:10 GMT
Filibuster isn't in the Constitution. And any law that big will need tweaking. It's ridiculous to pretend otherwise. Well filibuster is a part of the legal process in Congress. And Congress is the Constitutionally established governing body that needs to be doing the tweaking. If the bill cannot be implemented as it was passed, the entire thing should be postponed until the kinks can be worked out LEGALLY.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2014 1:16:00 GMT
Tweaks I can understand. Exempting an entire group of people from paying a reinsurance tax simply to keep their political support is not a tweak. It's cronyism.
And any bill that big probably needs to be broken down into smaller parts for easier implementation. Something we can all learn from.
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Post by Kymberlee on Aug 3, 2014 1:35:52 GMT
You are kidding right, Krazy? If the law is so huge and complex that it can't be implemented as it is written, than maybe it isn't such a good law. Maybe a little more thought should have gone into this clunker before being pushed through Congress to avoid all this mess.
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Post by *KatyCupcake* on Aug 3, 2014 3:07:58 GMT
And perhaps these kinds of huge sweeping laws that are too big to successfully implement without executive "tweaking" are the kinds of laws the Founding Fathers sought to prevent...
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Post by leftturnonly on Aug 3, 2014 5:59:25 GMT
Too bad he's on such bad terms with Harry Reid, who is sitting on something like 300+ bills. If only the Executive Branch and the Senate would work together. Obama's actions should scare all of us. He has pushed beyond the limits of the office. But this lawsuit? Seems like going to a sword fight armed with a wet noodle. Be specofic. So far you and others are talking in generalities with nothing concrete to offer. Make your case with specific facts otherwise all this belongs on my favorite site "Politicalfiction.com" Linguini.
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Post by Skypea on Aug 3, 2014 7:25:54 GMT
Anyone who thinks a law as complex as the ACA wouldn't need some changes is, to put as nicely as I can, kidding themselves. To realize changes need to be made and not do so is irresponsible. Normally one would go through the House & Senate for the changes but what do think the chances of that happening with a Republican lead House who tried to repeal the ACA what 40-50 times and the Senate with Mitch aka Mr. Filibuster? Talk about a hostile environment. Doesn't matter if there's filibuster. That's a part of the Constitutionally established process for writing laws and making changes to existing laws. As president, you don't get to act outside of the Constitution that you swore to protect and defend because you're scared of a filibuster. The President was kidding himself when he thought his ACA bill was perfect. He campaigned on that bill and that's his legacy. If it was awesome enough to be signed into law, then it shouldn't need executive acts to fix things- because something THAT huge, THAT impacting, THAT EXPENSIVE, and THAT INVASIVE on the American citizenry should not be rushed through without careful and purposeful thought and attention to detail. If there are issues that require part of the law to be postponed, then the entire law should be postponed and the proper legislative process allowed to work out the details. yep, that's the way our law works. What BO is doing is BREAKING the law. But he knows that. He is laughing in the face of this country.
I continually hear dems say 'it's the law now so deal with it!'. well then, you all /BO should deal with just how terrible that law is OR fix it within the law. BO (and dems) seem to be fine with him breaking the law to do what HE wants. It isn't about what HE wants, it's about all of this country and our laws.
He has changed the start/sign up dates to move them away from (after) certain elections so not to hurt the dems. Didn't he delay some start ups until after the 2016 election? He has changed it so his friends and DONORS don't have to comply. It was his people that pushed that law thru (no repubs supporting it) all while saying it wasn't a tax and saying it would save people 2500 a yr, premiums would be less etc. HA! those premiums are going up even for this next yr. That program is NOT fixed and has so far cost US 840 M $! Many people who signed up and paid are now finding out they are NOT registered anywhere to get medical care.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2014 15:11:20 GMT
Doesn't matter if there's filibuster. That's a part of the Constitutionally established process for writing laws and making changes to existing laws. As president, you don't get to act outside of the Constitution that you swore to protect and defend because you're scared of a filibuster. The President was kidding himself when he thought his ACA bill was perfect. He campaigned on that bill and that's his legacy. If it was awesome enough to be signed into law, then it shouldn't need executive acts to fix things- because something THAT huge, THAT impacting, THAT EXPENSIVE, and THAT INVASIVE on the American citizenry should not be rushed through without careful and purposeful thought and attention to detail. If there are issues that require part of the law to be postponed, then the entire law should be postponed and the proper legislative process allowed to work out the details. yep, that's the way our law works. What BO is doing is BREAKING the law. But he knows that. He is laughing in the face of this country.
I continually hear dems say 'it's the law now so deal with it!'. well then, you all /BO should deal with just how terrible that law is OR fix it within the law. BO (and dems) seem to be fine with him breaking the law to do what HE wants. It isn't about what HE wants, it's about all of this country and our laws.
He has changed the start/sign up dates to move them away from (after) certain elections so not to hurt the dems. Didn't he delay some start ups until after the 2016 election? He has changed it so his friends and DONORS don't have to comply. It was his people that pushed that law thru (no repubs supporting it) all while saying it wasn't a tax and saying it would save people 2500 a yr, premiums would be less etc. HA! those premiums are going up even for this next yr. That program is NOT fixed and has so far cost US 840 M $! Many people who signed up and paid are now finding out they are NOT registered anywhere to get medical care.
Oh phooey to both of you. If you choose not to see the truth so be it. One day instead of sticking by our heads in the sand you will actually look at the BIG picture instead of the little narrow view that you take. Nothing is as simple as you are trying to make it.
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Post by *KatyCupcake* on Aug 3, 2014 15:21:53 GMT
How mature, Krazy. I'm not taking a narrow view. I'm looking at the failures of a giant act of legislation that many people in this country were very rightfully worried over. It has cost middle class Americans and has a hefty bill for the next generation to pay off. The roll out has not gone well. The president feels he needs to excuse groups from participating (coincidently they are groups that supported his campaigns... Something he is becoming notorious for- targeting those who speak out in disagreement and rewarding his supporters). And now the SCOTUS has ruled there are parts of the bill that infringe on 1st amendment rights. The President has more than this failure to his legacy- IRS (again targeting his opponents), Benghazi, Immigration Crisis... I'm seeing a much bigger picture than you seem to be seeing. This picture clearly shows Washington is a mess and it starts at the top.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2014 16:30:19 GMT
How mature, Krazy. I'm not taking a narrow view. I'm looking at the failures of a giant act of legislation that many people in this country were very rightfully worried over. It has cost middle class Americans and has a hefty bill for the next generation to pay off. The roll out has not gone well. The president feels he needs to excuse groups from participating (coincidently they are groups that supported his campaigns... Something he is becoming notorious for- targeting those who speak out in disagreement and rewarding his supporters). And now the SCOTUS has ruled there are parts of the bill that infringe on 1st amendment rights. The President has more than this failure to his legacy- IRS (again targeting his opponents), Benghazi, Immigration Crisis... I'm seeing a much bigger picture than you seem to be seeing. This picture clearly shows Washington is a mess and it starts at the top. Actually you are buying into the Republican Propaganda. Have you read the Senate Intelligence Report on Benghazi? You may want to read if you haven't. Yes mistakes were made but not what the Republicans are harping about. There is no proof the IRS did anything other than use bad judgment and nothing to connect the President to any of this. Immigration was boiling up every since the current bill was passed in 1986. If I could figure out how to link an article from Political Fact Check which pointed out the number coming across the border isn't any different then it has been for years other then the number dropped off during the Great Recession. The % of kids on their own is about the same before Obama as it is now. Let's don't forget Fast & Furious. Well that is an embarrassment that goes all the way back to 2003. But the embarrassment is to this country. We knew guns were being smuggled into Mexico. In fact their President asked Bush to do something to stop the flow of guns into his country as they were being used to kill the people of his country. When did we decide something needed to be done? Years later when one of the guns was used to kill one of our border guards. I guess until then it was ok for guns that were bought in this country and smuggled into Mexico were used to kill Mexicans. What does that say about this country? As to the ACA well here are 2 suggestions. Go back to the way it was. That was working sooo well. Especially for the folks with pre existing conditions and the folks with serious illnesses that were quickly hitting the policy maximum pay out. Or the other option let's switch to the Republican plan. Oh wait they never came up with one did they. Yea they just wanted to repeal the ACA without any options. But to be fair they sort of floated the idea of buying insurance across state lines. Well like I have always said you have to look at the BIG picture and if one did they would actually see the same problems folks face buying insurance now they would also face the same problems buying insurance across states lines. Yes the roll out of the ACA could have been done a lot better. But something needed to be done. One has to look at what this bill is starting to accomplish and look at the alternative. Get passed the pettiness. Right now the Republicans sole purpose is sticking it to the President at the expense of the American People. My question to all those who are insisting the President is breaking all these laws. What is his end game? How does all this law breaking benefit The President personally? Is he really breaking laws or just trying to do his job in a hostile environment? I suspect some of you would be thrilled if this President was nothing but a figurehead. Sorry while I don't agree with everything this President has done for the most part I like what he is doing or trying to do in spite of the Republicans who continue to prove they really don't care what happens to all Americams. They only care what happens to their chosen few. Edited to correct my mistakes.
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Post by *KatyCupcake* on Aug 3, 2014 16:55:11 GMT
If the environment in DC is hostile, it's largely attributed to the way the President has acted since taking office. He is divisive. He has told republicans to sit down and shut up. He has stated he doesn't need congress.
And actually Obama as a figurehead is still too much for many Americans. (It's not something I get hung up on personally, but many people would say Obama has a poor record when representing the US in foreign situations...)
I disagree with you. I don't trust those appointed to investigate the scandals. I don't trust people who conveniently lose years' worth of e-mail. I just can't trust our leadership like you seem to.
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huskergal
Pearl Clutcher
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Jun 25, 2014 20:22:13 GMT
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Post by huskergal on Aug 3, 2014 17:33:31 GMT
The precedents being set by this Congress are going to make it virtually impossible for the next President to get anything done. Don't think the Democrats won't play the same game with a Republican president, or we will see a continuation if a Democrat gets elected.
We need to break the 2 party system. I would like to see 10-12 parties with legitimate chances of winning elections. Money buys candidates. It is a sad time for our system of government.
My goal in the midterms is to fire the House of Representatives, but it won't happen.
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Post by lucyg on Aug 3, 2014 18:30:57 GMT
Actually you are buying into the Republican Propaganda. Have you read the Senate Intelligence Report on Benghazi? You may want to read if you haven't. Yes mistakes were made but not what the Republicans are harping about. There is no proof the IRS did anything other than use bad judgment and nothing to connect the President to any of this. Immigration was boiling up every since the current bill was passed in 1986. If I could figure out how to link an article from Political Fact Check which pointed out the number coming across the border isn't any different then it has been for years other then the number dropped off during the Great Recession. The % of kids on their own is about the same before Obama as it is now. Let's don't forget Fast & Furious. Well that is an embarrassment that goes all the way back to 2003. But the embarrassment is to this country. We knew guns were being smuggled into Mexico. In fact their President asked Bush to do something to stop the flow of guns into his country as they were being used to kill the people of his country. When did we decide something needed to be done? Years later when one of the guns was used to kill one of our border guards. I guess until then it was ok guns that were bought in this country and smuggled into Mexico and used to kill Mexicans. What does that say about this country? As to the ACA well here are 2 suggestions. Go back to the way it was. That was working sooo well. Especially for the folks with pre existing conditions and the folks with serious illnesses that were quickly hitting the policy maximum pay out. Or the other option let's switch to the Republican plan. Oh wait they never came up with one did they. Yea they just wanted to repeal the ACA with any options. But to be fair they sort of floated the idea of buying insurance across state lines. Well like I have always said you have to look at the BIG picture and if one did they would actually see the same problems folks face buying insurance now they would also face the same problems buying insurance across states lines. Yes the roll out of the ACA could have been done a lot better. But something needed to be done. One has to look at what this bill is starting to accomplish and look at the alternative. Get passed the pettiness. Right now the Republicans sole purpose is sticking it to the President at the expense of the American People. My question to all those who are insisting the President is breaking all these laws. What is his end game? How does all this law breaking benefit The President personally? Is he really breaking laws or just trying to do his job in a hostile environment? I suspect some of you would be thrilled if this President was nothing but a figurehead. Sorry while I don't agree with everything this President has done for the most part I like what he is doing or trying to do in spite of the Republicans who continue to prove they really don't care what happens to all Americams. They only care what happens to their chosen few. KrazyScrapper doesn't always say things exactly the way I would, but this ... this is a thing of beauty. YES to every word of it. I would only add that the Republican leadership has been scheming how to undercut this presidency since Inauguration Day 2009. It had nothing to do with what he'd done and everything to do with political power. Can anyone justify why there are still over 30 ambassadorships sitting empty? Senate Republicans will filibuster any attempt to confirm the nominees (note, they did confirm one this week, to Russia). No one on either side of the aisle is objecting to the actual nominees. Republicans are just trying to hurt Pres. Obama in any way they can, and they are hurting, not helping, the country while they do it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2014 0:45:47 GMT
If the environment in DC is hostile, it's largely attributed to the way the President has acted since taking office. He is divisive. He has told republicans to sit down and shut up. He has stated he doesn't need congress. And actually Obama as a figurehead is still too much for many Americans. (It's not something I get hung up on personally, but many people would say Obama has a poor record when representing the US in foreign situations...) I disagree with you. I don't trust those appointed to investigate the scandals. I don't trust people who conveniently lose years' worth of e-mail. I just can't trust our leadership like you seem to. I noticed you didn't answer my question about how does all this law breaking the President is accused of doing benefits him petsonally. I mean when one breaks the law its usually to benefits them personally. So what is his end game? You say you don't trust the leadership but you can't or won't make your case. Why is that? Edited to add. I don't blindly trust anyone. Folks keep saying they don't trust this President and he lies he is breaking the law etc etc. So I'm wondering what am I not seeing some of you are seeing. So I ask questions. Most don't answer the question or I get I don't trust him. Ok well why specifically don't you trust him. The silence tells the real story. At this point it is what it is.
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Post by *KatyCupcake* on Aug 4, 2014 1:26:55 GMT
If the environment in DC is hostile, it's largely attributed to the way the President has acted since taking office. He is divisive. He has told republicans to sit down and shut up. He has stated he doesn't need congress. And actually Obama as a figurehead is still too much for many Americans. (It's not something I get hung up on personally, but many people would say Obama has a poor record when representing the US in foreign situations...) I disagree with you. I don't trust those appointed to investigate the scandals. I don't trust people who conveniently lose years' worth of e-mail. I just can't trust our leadership like you seem to. I noticed you didn't answer my question about how does all this law breaking the President is accused of doing benefits him petsonally. I mean when one breaks the law its usually to benefits them personally. So what is his end game? You say you don't trust the leadership but you can't or won't make your case. Why is that? Edited to add. I don't blindly trust anyone. Folks keep saying they don't trust this President and he lies he is breaking the law etc etc. So I'm wondering what am I not seeing some of you are seeing. So I ask questions. Most don't answer the question or I get I don't trust him. Ok well why specifically don't you trust him. The silence tells the real story. At this point it is what it is. Obama benefits by having his bill look better- if he admits it needs "tweaking" he looks bad. If he goes about tweaking things through Congress as he's supposed to, he is at the mercy of Republicans and he won't allow himself to be put there. There may not seem to be much "victory" in that to you, but to his party and his successor, it is vital this bill appear successful. Obama will go whichever route that allows him to look successful and put his own failures upon his opponents. An excellent example is how he has Reid protecting him from having to even look at any new legislation from the House. He can accuse Republicans of not doing anything when in fact, they've written hundreds of bills, voted on them, and there they sit. The President can pass the blame and win the PR game when others (as proven on this thread) repeat the accusations that the House isn't doing its job. Besides, he's been playing this game for a very long time and old habits die hard. For so long things like this have meant a lot more to him personally. Now he can't run for office again (though at this point electing Hillary will be voting for exactly the same partisan manipulation and games we have now) but he certainly isn't going to take the route that suggests his bill was flawed or ruins his party's chance at retaining the presidency come 2016. He knows if his bill continues to show these failures it's not really just him that loses faith from past supporters (with deep pockets), it's his whole party. He knows this bill is his legacy and it will be how history remembers him. He knows there are many who want ACA repealed and if he doesn't tweak things to make it look more successful, there's a big chance his legacy bill won't hold up once he's no longer in office. By the way, I never once said I can't or wouldn't make my case. I have been answering your direct questions respectfully. I'd appreciate consideration in return rather than childish antics.
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Post by Skypea on Aug 4, 2014 13:03:21 GMT
It is too late for compromise. The law has been signed and should be followed unless the correct procedures are followed to CHANGE it. If we as a country allow ANY president the leeway to pick and choose what laws are enforced, we are doomed as a country. It seems to be happening with immigration also and I think that is what concerns me the most. It seems that there is a very dangerous game of chicken being played between the legislative and executive branches and it isn't going to end well for the American people regardless of whether or not you are a D or an R. I don't like the idea of this lawsuit because I don't think it can end well for either party involved, but I'm not really sure what the Republicans are supposed to do. Should they ignore the blatant disregard for the law just because they might end up with egg on their face? Should they go through with impeachment procedures? It is just such a shame that it has come to this, and there is plenty of blame to go around. Anyone who thinks a law as complex as the ACA wouldn't need some changes is, to put as nicely as I can, kidding themselves. To realize changes need to be made and not do so is irresponsible. Normally one would go through the House & Senate for the changes but what do think the chances of that happening with a Republican lead House who tried to repeal the ACA what 40-50 times and the Senate with Mitch aka Mr. Filibuster? Talk about a hostile environment. well, there ya go! because it might be a difficult thing to do, just break the law! hey, going to work everyday to earn a living isn't so easy either - why not just rob a bank? steal what ya need!
isn't that guy in the WH the one who said he could DO IT? and oh so much better than anyone else? and everyone just loved him and would fall at his feet? REALLY? that didn't happen, did it? so he's taken to bullying everyone, lying and breaking our laws to get his way.
FYI, that no good do nothing house! they stayed late and put together a bill. yep, waste of their time and energy cause GUESS WHO has already said he'd just VETO it anyway!
yep, it really ain't the house doing nothing...
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Post by Skypea on Aug 4, 2014 13:27:28 GMT
If the environment in DC is hostile, it's largely attributed to the way the President has acted since taking office. He is divisive. He has told republicans to sit down and shut up. He has stated he doesn't need congress. And actually Obama as a figurehead is still too much for many Americans. (It's not something I get hung up on personally, but many people would say Obama has a poor record when representing the US in foreign situations...) I disagree with you. I don't trust those appointed to investigate the scandals. I don't trust people who conveniently lose years' worth of e-mail. I just can't trust our leadership like you seem to. the polls support that. I think it's somewhere around 60% who think he is failing on foreign policy. over 50% on most everything...
emails - with good reason. The big techie guys say it ain't so. And 2 judges have now ordered the IRS to cough up the emails/ the drive etc - or tell why not UNDER OATH. The judges didn't believe the IRS story either... AND Issa (and the others) knew better. They had enough info from other emails / sources to know pretty much what's been going on there. Some of that is now being made known. Like the 'other' Lerner emails supporting that this was an intentional attack on conservatives. And how about the Lerner 'friend' (another female atty) at the FEC who suddenly lost the info on HER computer (that involves a violation of the Hatch act she in under question for. BOs former SOL is also being investigated for violating the Hatch Act).
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Post by katieanna on Aug 4, 2014 13:47:48 GMT
I think that the point is that Obama is invoking powers that, constitutionally, are not his to invoke. There is a reason we have the three branches, checks, balances, etc. if Obama cannot get what he wants legitimately, he is willing to sacrifice the constitution. That is the way I see it. There are lots of things that bother me about the President, but this is what bothers me the most.
ETA: After reading the rest of this thread all I have to say is, as a nation, we're in a heap of trouble. No matter how you slice it, the whole situation literally stinks and it won't end well...no matter who is elected in 2016.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2014 14:27:36 GMT
I noticed you didn't answer my question about how does all this law breaking the President is accused of doing benefits him petsonally. I mean when one breaks the law its usually to benefits them personally. So what is his end game? You say you don't trust the leadership but you can't or won't make your case. Why is that? Edited to add. I don't blindly trust anyone. Folks keep saying they don't trust this President and he lies he is breaking the law etc etc. So I'm wondering what am I not seeing some of you are seeing. So I ask questions. Most don't answer the question or I get I don't trust him. Ok well why specifically don't you trust him. The silence tells the real story. At this point it is what it is. Obama benefits by having his bill look better- if he admits it needs "tweaking" he looks bad. If he goes about tweaking things through Congress as he's supposed to, he is at the mercy of Republicans and he won't allow himself to be put there. There may not seem to be much "victory" in that to you, but to his party and his successor, it is vital this bill appear successful. Obama will go whichever route that allows him to look successful and put his own failures upon his opponents. An excellent example is how he has Reid protecting him from having to even look at any new legislation from the House. He can accuse Republicans of not doing anything when in fact, they've written hundreds of bills, voted on them, and there they sit. The President can pass the blame and win the PR game when others (as proven on this thread) repeat the accusations that the House isn't doing its job. Besides, he's been playing this game for a very long time and old habits die hard. For so long things like this have meant a lot more to him personally. Now he can't run for office again (though at this point electing Hillary will be voting for exactly the same partisan manipulation and games we have now) but he certainly isn't going to take the route that suggests his bill was flawed or ruins his party's chance at retaining the presidency come 2016. He knows if his bill continues to show these failures it's not really just him that loses faith from past supporters (with deep pockets), it's his whole party. He knows this bill is his legacy and it will be how history remembers him. He knows there are many who want ACA repealed and if he doesn't tweak things to make it look more successful, there's a big chance his legacy bill won't hold up once he's no longer in office. By the way, I never once said I can't or wouldn't make my case. I have been answering your direct questions respectfully. I'd appreciate consideration in return rather than childish antics. OK well interesting read but you have no facts to share just general comments. But let me see if I get this right. The reason the President "broke" the law was to protect his legacy. Well IF he did break the law maybe it was because he saw a flaw in the ACA and wanted to fix it so the law would do what it's suppose to ultimately do. I think you forget the reason why there is a ACA. What the purpose if the law is. Why wouldn't one want to tweak the law if it needed it? I guess the question to ask is The President tweaking the law to help people or only to protect his legacy. The cynical view IMO is to protect his legacy. And just protecting his legacy isn't logical because if you look at the majority of Executive Orders he has signed they benefit some group of folks or all Americans. You know maybe that is why the Republicans are screaming he is breaking the law. Because he is working for the American People and not big business. And this despite the efforts of the The Roberts Supreme Court saying that corporations have individual rights and religious beliefs. Since when did asking questions become "Childish Antics"?
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Post by greenlegume on Aug 6, 2014 14:31:26 GMT
And until people wake up and realize this, nothing is going to get better. Sadly, it seems that most people just prefer to keep up the endless circular arguments.
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Post by Skypea on Aug 6, 2014 16:16:15 GMT
So, it IS ok to break the law if you think it is for a good reason? Remember that... as for him working for the people and not big bz - that's a big joke. I realize you don't understand it tho.
BO is NOT working for the people - unless the people no longer want a free country. He has continually said he wouldn't increase taxes on the middle class. Yet they've gone up, up, up. middle class income has gone down. middle class is now subject to absolutely tons of new laws and regulations. Many of those cost them money.
against big bz? you are blind. He is giving HIS donor big businesses tons at the expense of the middle class. The insurance companies backed his ACA and he set it up so they can get a bail out - by the American taxpayers. If they lose money on these policies guess who will pay to make up those losses?
How are our military benefiting now? they're getting pink slips while still in war areas, they get crap for health care IF they get any at all. But those workers hiding the numbers of vets NOT getting care are getting bonuses.
and thru all of these things BO is informed about what is going on - from the news and he lies time and time and time again. He lies about lying. Evidently that's ok with you.
you might look up and read that oath he took.
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Deleted
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Oct 8, 2024 22:20:58 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2014 17:31:35 GMT
So, it IS ok to break the law if you think it is for a good reason? Remember that... as for him working for the people and not big bz - that's a big joke. I realize you don't understand it tho. BO is NOT working for the people - unless the people no longer want a free country. He has continually said he wouldn't increase taxes on the middle class. Yet they've gone up, up, up. middle class income has gone down. middle class is now subject to absolutely tons of new laws and regulations. Many of those cost them money. against big bz? you are blind. He is giving HIS donor big businesses tons at the expense of the middle class. The insurance companies backed his ACA and he set it up so they can get a bail out - by the American taxpayers. If they lose money on these policies guess who will pay to make up those losses? How are our military benefiting now? they're getting pink slips while still in war areas, they get crap for health care IF they get any at all. But those workers hiding the numbers of vets NOT getting care are getting bonuses. and thru all of these things BO is informed about what is going on - from the news and he lies time and time and time again. He lies about lying. Evidently that's ok with you. you might look up and read that oath he took. My goodness skypea you do have an unique way of looking at the world. Where is your proof? You prove any of this and tie it back the President with solid proof I'll tell you I agree. Until then you are just putting down words with little meaning.
By the way I'm not the one that thinks the President is breaking the law. That is your friends the Republicans who are saying that with no real proof I might add.
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Post by leftturnonly on Aug 6, 2014 18:39:23 GMT
I guess the question to ask is The President tweaking the law to help people or only to protect his legacy. The cynical view IMO is to protect his legacy. My strongest inclination is to believe that President Obama and I have entirely different perspectives. Everything that I've heard him say points to that, and the way he responds to things confirms it. I believe that we have these differences because we have different ideals of what this country means and what makes us healthy and strong. I believe that President Obama does what he does - and that includes this endless tweaking that lopsidedly benefits his supporters - with his goals firmly in mind. I think those goals are off target, and I don't agree that his ends justify his means. I haven't wondered if this is about his idea of a legacy, but that is something presidents are conscious of and like him or not, this man is arrogant. It would be naive to think he doesn't consider what his lasting impact will be. Every leader does. Seems like a "duh" kind of point to me.
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loco coco
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,662
Jun 26, 2014 16:15:45 GMT
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Post by loco coco on Aug 6, 2014 18:42:28 GMT
BO is working for the people? thats the funniest thing ive heard all day! we havent had a president working for the people in awhile
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Deleted
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Oct 8, 2024 22:20:58 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2014 19:30:44 GMT
I guess the question to ask is The President tweaking the law to help people or only to protect his legacy. The cynical view IMO is to protect his legacy. My strongest inclination is to believe that President Obama and I have entirely different perspectives.
Everything that I've heard him say points to that, and the way he responds to things confirms it. I believe that we have these differences because we have different ideals of what this country means and what makes us healthy and strong. I believe that President Obama does what he does - and that includes this endless tweaking that lopsidedly benefits his supporters - with his goals firmly in mind. I think those goals are off target, and I don't agree that his ends justify his means. I haven't wondered if this is about his idea of a legacy, but that is something presidents are conscious of and like him or not, this man is arrogant. It would be naive to think he doesn't consider what his lasting impact will be. Every leader does. Seems like a "duh" kind of point to me. No kidding.
I guess when you say "endless tweaking that lopsidedly benefits his supporters" you are talking about the folks that can now buy health care insurance. The folks with serious illness won't have their benefits capped. And I guess you are talking about the folks that the President is trying to get an increase in the minimum wage for. I could go on but I don't think you really care.
His goals are off target. Hmm interesting. Yes I guess making health care insurance to all available and fighting for an increase in the minimum wage is "off target". Ends justify means. Hmm I guess you would be happy if he hadn't been able to do anything. Just sit around in that big old house and do nothing.
You know your comment about the President being arrogant is funny. And I'll tell you why. When Bush use to walk out to give a speech he had such a smirk on his face that I just want to slap it off. Now I'm sure that is not how you saw him. I don't think President Obama is arrogant I think he showing he is a confident man.
Yes there is a certain amount of truth on what you are saying about legacy. Bush's legacy will always be the mess he started in Iraq. He'll never be able to get away from that. The worse it gets the more people will remember what he started and how many people died because of it.
To be honest on Obama's legacy I'm not sure what it will be. I think he has the right idea of what he wanted to do. I think he had the potential to be a great President. When he gave his speech of what he wanted to change in Washington I remember thinking that is great but unfortunately you can say that all you want but if Congress is not behind you you're just shouting at the wind. From the day he was elected he never had the support of the Republicans. They never wanted to work with him. And that is a loss to this country. Yes I know you are going to say its all Obama's fault. Everything is Obama's fault. Some maybe. But the majority is at the feet of the Republicans. Between Mitch aka I never saw a filibuster I didn't like and the silly rule in the House where all Republicans had to support a bill before it even came to the floor for a vote. Never mind there were enough Democrats that would vote for a bill to pass it. How stupid is that. You talk about all the bills passed in the do nothing congress. They were all passed along party lines. Of course they weren't going anywhere because as far as the Republicans were concerned there is no room for compromise. Take it or leave it. And no I'm not going to debate the ACA with you. It seems the Republicans forget they had their say in what was or was not in the ACA. The Democrats keep making the mistake of thinking if they compromised with the Republicans on the ACA some Republicans, would understand something needed to be done, and vote for the bill. I think we all learned a lesson that day. Oh by the way, have the Republicans ever released their replacement for the ACA? Last I heard they were postponing releasing anything indefinitely. Which means they have nothing.
I think it would have been better if Hilary Clinton had been elected President with Obama as Vice President. Then we could have elected Obama as President. I don't think this country was not ready for him to become President yet. I'm not talking just because he was black but I do think that did play a part in the problems we are having today. I do believe he made a true statement when he said "There are some folks that voted for me because I was black and there were some folks who didn't vote for me because I was black." That is not playing the race card that is just stating a fact.
And of course you are going to disagree with every word I just wrote. And that is your right. But it doesn't change the truth.
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Post by leftturnonly on Aug 6, 2014 19:59:39 GMT
Krazy, I only have a minute here.....
Sigh. You.just.refuse.to.get.it.
You are completely and utterly in the dark.
The President has not applied his laws evenly to everyone. Those who have supported him the most have received benefits those who have not didn't get.
That's what I said. That's what I meant.
It's really annoying to have you constantly twist what is said to meet your agenda of what you think I *should* mean to fit into a stereotype you think I fit.
I don't fit it.
My children have lifelong serious illnesses. If you ever actually listened to what I've said, you would know that. And working for minimum wage? That has absolutely nothing to do with my post.
This is why I get so damned annoyed reading your posts. No matter how good your points may be, your complete refusal to see the person on the other side of the computer is something I don't have the patience to get through right now.
Maybe later, I'll have the patience to get through your condescension and finish reading your post. IDK. I wouldn't count on it.
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Post by *KatyCupcake* on Aug 6, 2014 20:52:52 GMT
Yes, I believe this president cares more about protecting his legacy than actually fixing flaws in his bill to help more Americans. Truly. Obama does what is best for Obama and if it happens to help those who support Obama then that's simply an added bonus.
But honestly he isn't much different than most current politicians. That's the rampant problem in Washington right now. Our representatives are really only representing themselves.
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Post by annaintx on Aug 6, 2014 21:34:56 GMT
Are you all still at it? I should have known. LOL!
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