Deleted
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Oct 7, 2024 17:28:26 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2016 1:12:16 GMT
That's the heart of it for me. Because when it comes down to it, what I do in the voting booth is, arguably, the most private thing I ever do. My spouse can walk in on me in the bathroom and draw accurate conclusions. Friends, family, strangers could find a way into my computer to spy on documents and cookies. Even in a confessional, were I Catholic, the priest is a human being on the other side of the screen listening to my deeds. But I can literally vote for any candidate behind that curtain, and no one will know. I can say I voted for a candidate and you can't prove it one way or the other.
So my husband and I have always maintained a civility about the whole process. We say we vote alike. Maybe we do, maybe we don't. The important thing is, I've lived through many administrations I didn't like, and while the laws and direction from that leadership changed some things about my life in a negative way, I refuse to give it the power to interfere with my relationships.
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Post by Merge on Jun 8, 2016 1:38:53 GMT
Personally I think it would be a colossal waste of money and would not be effective. How many drug and people smuggling tunnels have been found on the border? I would prefer those dollars be put to use hiring and training more border patrol agents and enforcing the laws already on the books. And no I don't think Mexico is going to pay to build the wall despite Trump's assurances that it will. If we actually secured that border, I'd be happy to never hear of building the wall again. It's not a wall that matters here, it's national security To me, anyway. lucyg - And I never, ever, ever, even the teensiest bit ever, associated a wall between the US and Mexico with the Berlin Wall. That's a stretch I never would have believed if I hadn't just read it here. 1. Never in human history has a giant wall been built for any reason than to keep out those undesirable or considered dangerous. Whether Hadrian's Wall, the Great Wall of China or the Berlin Wall, all were literally and symbolically meant to designate that those on the other side are not welcome, whether physically or ideologically. A wall does not symbolize a friendly neighbor relationship. 2. The US cannot and will not ever be able to completely secure its borders. The country is too large and the landscape too diverse. Even if Trump does manage to build this wall, the "undesirables" will start landing on the remotest parts of the Texas seashore, and we're right back where we started. But with a giant, expensive, unsightly wall. 3. It would be much better to make a legal and reasonably easy way for people who want to come here and do jobs our citizens won't do, to do so. Then when we find someone sneaking in, we know for sure that they mean us harm, and aren't just trying to feed their family. 4. Back to the realization that our borders can't be secured, and we can't be completely safe. That's part of the price of living in a free society. Just as some don't want to give up the freedom to own guns in order to make a safer society, I don't want to live in a country that is surrounded by cinder blocks and razor wire in order to prevent people from coming here to mow lawns and clean houses, and work hard to build better lives for their children. And I accept that we may be slightly less safe as a result. 5. This is the US/Mexico border in the Big Bend region. Where should the wall go?
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Rainbow
Pearl Clutcher
Where salt is in the air and sand is at my feet...
Posts: 4,103
Jun 26, 2014 5:57:41 GMT
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Post by Rainbow on Jun 8, 2016 1:40:44 GMT
NEVER FORGET is an odd choice of words in this circumstance. Wow. Why?
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Rainbow
Pearl Clutcher
Where salt is in the air and sand is at my feet...
Posts: 4,103
Jun 26, 2014 5:57:41 GMT
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Post by Rainbow on Jun 8, 2016 1:49:20 GMT
Never in human history has a giant wall been built for any reason than to keep out those undesirable or considered dangerous. Whether Hadrian's Wall, the Great Wall of China or the Berlin Wall, What you are saying simply isn't true. The Berlin Wall was there to keep their people from leaving via Berlin. I was there. I saw it. I know some of the people. The fact is, nobody was trying desperately to get into East Germany. People were risking their lives trying to leave there! And West Germans could come and go from East Germany but East German citizens could not. So it was NOT to keep people out. What you are saying makes no sense. I was there and I saw it in person.
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Post by Merge on Jun 8, 2016 2:12:15 GMT
What you are saying simply isn't true. The Berlin Wall was there to keep their people from leaving via Berlin. I was there. I saw it. I know some of the people. The fact is, nobody was trying desperately to get into East Germany. People were risking their lives trying to leave there! And West Germans could come and go from East Germany but East German citizens could not. So it was NOT to keep people out. What you are saying makes no sense. I was there and I saw it in person. As I think Lucy mentioned above, the wall was built as much to keep western ideology out as to keep East Germans in. I've spoken with lots of people who saw the wall, and not one of them described it as a friendly barrier between neighbors. ETA : www.history.com/this-day-in-history/berlin-wall-builtIt's interesting to note that the wall served both to drastically limit and control the number of Westerners going into East Germany, and also that the East German authorities specifically stated that this was to protect its people from "pernicious" western influences.
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Post by misadventurous on Jun 8, 2016 2:40:07 GMT
As I think Lucy mentioned above, the wall was built as much to keep western ideology out as to keep East Germans in. I've spoken with lots of people who saw the wall, and not one of them described it as a friendly barrier between neighbors. ETA : www.history.com/this-day-in-history/berlin-wall-builtIt's interesting to note that the wall served both to drastically limit and control the number of Westerners going into East Germany, and also that the East German authorities specifically stated that this was to protect its people from "pernicious" western influences. I think you're misunderstanding. Nobody is saying that the Berlin Wall was a friendly barrier. Regardless of what the East Germans claimed the purpose of the wall was, the raising of it was in direct response to the huge numbers of East Germans defecting to the West. It was built (overnight!) to keep the populace from leaving. It was making East Germany look bad to have all of its people leaving for the more prosperous West when the communist state was supposed to be taking care of everyone. It is absolutely, in no way whatsoever, comparable to what Trump is proposing.
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Post by lucyg on Jun 8, 2016 2:51:37 GMT
As I think Lucy mentioned above, the wall was built as much to keep western ideology out as to keep East Germans in. I've spoken with lots of people who saw the wall, and not one of them described it as a friendly barrier between neighbors. ETA : www.history.com/this-day-in-history/berlin-wall-builtIt's interesting to note that the wall served both to drastically limit and control the number of Westerners going into East Germany, and also that the East German authorities specifically stated that this was to protect its people from "pernicious" western influences. I think you're misunderstanding. Nobody is saying that the Berlin Wall was a friendly barrier. Regardless of what the East Germans claimed the purpose of the wall was, the raising of it was in direct response to the huge numbers of East Germans defecting to the West. It was built (overnight!) to keep the populace from leaving. It was making East Germany look bad to have all of its people leaving for the more prosperous West when the communist state was supposed to be taking care of everyone. It is absolutely, in no way whatsoever, comparable to what Trump is proposing. I don't see much difference between a wall built to keep people in and a wall built to keep people out. They're both meant to separate "us" from "them." I think we're arguing minor technicalities here.
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Rainbow
Pearl Clutcher
Where salt is in the air and sand is at my feet...
Posts: 4,103
Jun 26, 2014 5:57:41 GMT
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Post by Rainbow on Jun 8, 2016 3:24:42 GMT
I think you're misunderstanding. Nobody is saying that the Berlin Wall was a friendly barrier. Regardless of what the East Germans claimed the purpose of the wall was, the raising of it was in direct response to the huge numbers of East Germans defecting to the West. It was built (overnight!) to keep the populace from leaving. It was making East Germany look bad to have all of its people leaving for the more prosperous West when the communist state was supposed to be taking care of everyone. It is absolutely, in no way whatsoever, comparable to what Trump is proposing. I don't see much difference between a wall built to keep people in and a wall built to keep people out. They're both meant to separate "us" from "them." I think we're arguing minor technicalities here. It is a very big difference. Major. Like being inside a cage or being outside of one.
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Post by misadventurous on Jun 8, 2016 3:25:25 GMT
I think you're misunderstanding. Nobody is saying that the Berlin Wall was a friendly barrier. Regardless of what the East Germans claimed the purpose of the wall was, the raising of it was in direct response to the huge numbers of East Germans defecting to the West. It was built (overnight!) to keep the populace from leaving. It was making East Germany look bad to have all of its people leaving for the more prosperous West when the communist state was supposed to be taking care of everyone. It is absolutely, in no way whatsoever, comparable to what Trump is proposing. I don't see much difference between a wall built to keep people in and a wall built to keep people out. They're both meant to separate "us" from "them." I think we're arguing minor technicalities here. I'm pretty sure it makes a big difference to the people that are being walled in. Don't you think that the people who are in favor of a wall on the US-Mexican border would feel differently about it if it were built with the express purpose of prohibiting them from ever leaving the country? Even if it were built under the premise that it was to protect us from people trying to get in?
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Post by Belia on Jun 8, 2016 4:22:00 GMT
I find it so interesting that folks who are in support of a wall are fixated on the first 12 words or so of Lucy's post, and completely ignore the other 100+ words of what she has to say. Fine. A wall between the US and Mexico is NOTHING LIKE the Berlin Wall. OK. Whatever. Point conceded. I'll even draw a line through that part so you don't have to read it anymore. See?!?!? But now you have to read the rest of it. @mytnice said: Building a wall is reminiscent of the Berlin Wall, the Great Wall ... we've been here for nearly 250 years and we've never needed a wall. We get along like friends with our neighbors to both the north and the south. Till now, apparently. It's also silly because it wouldn't work. It's too expensive (and no, Mexico isn't going to pay for it, no matter how many times Trump says they will), it would take too long, there are places along the border where you can't even build a wall. Once it was built, there would be tunnels underneath it or airplanes above it or holes blasted through it. It would strangle the relationship between the U.S. and Mexico. And then who's going to pay for the wall between the U.S. and Canada? Because don't think people aren't pouring over that border, too. The fact is, "illegal aliens" (I hate that term) contribute more to our economy than they take away from it. Despite Trump's claims to the contrary and a few high-profile exceptions, undocumented immigrants have a lower crime rate than regular citizens (surprise! they are trying not to get caught!). And for all the people who say "but we welcome legal immigrants," please understand that there has been almost no provision in U.S. immigration law for lawful immigration of unskilled/low-skilled workers from Latin America. So we have a long tradition of quietly encouraging and accepting these undocumented immigrants. Most of today's Mexican-American citizens (even the ones who don't approve of illegal immigration) are descended from people who just walked or drove across the border to work on farms, the railroad, in construction. That's the way it's been done for generations. We keep offering them jobs, they're going to keep coming. And today, we're in the negative on immigration rates, but never mind that. We've had prop. 187 and a recession and a tea party and a buffoon of a candidate, so suddenly we want a wall. OK, so now what's your response to the rest of what Lucy had to say? (Sorry- messed up the formatting.)
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Post by misadventurous on Jun 8, 2016 5:39:23 GMT
Just for the record, I completely agree that Trump's wall is a stupid, pointless, non-workable plan. There were a couple of people comparing it to the Berlin Wall, and it is just not a comparison that makes any sense. That is all.
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Post by peasapie on Jun 8, 2016 11:23:51 GMT
Sorry, Lucy. This isn't even close. As someone who had been to the Berlin wall when it was still standing I can say that keeping people in is much different from keeping people out. I was devastated to learn (as a teen) that a woman had been shot (trying to escape) just two weeks prior to my visit to Berlin. The wall Trump is talking about is nothing like that. Not even remotely similar. What does seeing the Berlin Wall have to do with anything? You seem to feel that gives your point more veracity. I've seen it, too. I went through Checkpoint Charlie, mirrors under the cars and the whole Cold War era treatment. Many of us have. Even better, my niece was there on the glorious day that wall came down. I have a piece of it, and I clearly remember Ronald Reagan exhorting Gorbachev to tear the wall down. That venerable Republican, I fear, would shudder to hear about his own countrymen even thinking of building another, even bigger wall. It's just a way to stir up fears of the boogeyman and ghosts under the bed.
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Post by Merge on Jun 8, 2016 12:11:04 GMT
I don't see much difference between a wall built to keep people in and a wall built to keep people out. They're both meant to separate "us" from "them." I think we're arguing minor technicalities here. It is a very big difference. Major. Like being inside a cage or being outside of one.So ... you're in favor of putting the Mexican people in a cage? An ineffective one, of course, but if that is your perception ... Tell me, do you think such a wall could really be effective here? Do you really not think that people would just go around it at the coasts? And what is your opposition to an easier path to legal work visas as a solution to our current problem?
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Post by anxiousmom on Jun 8, 2016 12:53:47 GMT
Sorry, Lucy. This isn't even close. As someone who had been to the Berlin wall when it was still standing I can say that keeping people in is much different from keeping people out. I was devastated to learn (as a teen) that a woman had been shot (trying to escape) just two weeks prior to my visit to Berlin. The wall Trump is talking about is nothing like that. Not even remotely similar. What does seeing the Berlin Wall have to do with anything? You seem to feel that gives your point more veracity. I've seen it, too. I went through Checkpoint Charlie, mirrors under the cars and the whole Cold War era treatment. Many of us have. Even better, my niece was there on the glorious day that wall came down. I have a piece of it, and I clearly remember Ronald Reagan exhorting Gorbachev to tear the wall down. That venerable Republican, I fear, would shudder to hear about his own countrymen even thinking of building another, even bigger wall. It's just a way to stir up fears of the boogeyman and ghosts under the bed. When I was in college I dated a German guy who was home visiting family when the wall came down. I have a picture of him chipping at the wall and a piece of what he chipped off. I trot it every so often to show the boys and to talk about how walls/fences don't encourage peaceful discussions and how walls keep 'others' at bay- all that happy hippie stuff. They kind of roll their eyes at me, but I don't care. I treasure that little bitty piece of concrete and what it means
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 7, 2024 17:28:27 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2016 15:52:43 GMT
I don't see much difference between a wall built to keep people in and a wall built to keep people out. They're both meant to separate "us" from "them." I think we're arguing minor technicalities here. It is a very big difference. Major. Like being inside a cage or being outside of one.On another thread ,or it could have been this one, I wondered if rainbow really believe what she says or was she just pulling our collective chains for her jollies. Its comments like this makes me think she is off somewhere laughing her head off as she reads the replies to comment like this elicits.
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~Lauren~
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,876
Jun 26, 2014 3:33:18 GMT
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Post by ~Lauren~ on Jun 8, 2016 15:53:44 GMT
Well if you really believe that why do you continue to respond?
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Deleted
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Oct 7, 2024 17:28:27 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2016 16:24:49 GMT
Well if you really believe that why do you continue to respond? Why Lavern I'm always happy when I find examples of what I think is happening and I would be remiss if I didn't share said example.
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~Lauren~
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,876
Jun 26, 2014 3:33:18 GMT
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Post by ~Lauren~ on Jun 8, 2016 17:34:26 GMT
Is there a reason you're calling me Lavern?
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