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Post by lucyg on Aug 13, 2014 5:02:37 GMT
This is part of the reason why our church building is for church members or their family only. We don't rent it out etc. Offering up the building opens it up to a lot of situations we might not be comfortable with. I have no problem with that whatsoever. I also don't think the Baptists should have to allow a gay person's funeral to be held in their church if they don't want to (although I do think it's petty and unkind not to, but that's their business). I don't have the energy to get all outraged about it. I only think you don't say yes and then change your mind. That behavior is guaranteed to piss off a lot of people.
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Post by lucyg on Aug 13, 2014 5:04:44 GMT
and has anyone confirmed that skypea really is skybar? The intent is there but the linguistics just don't sound true to her style. I've come around. I was unconvinced before but I think it sounds just like her now. Welcome home, skybar.
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Post by leftturnonly on Aug 13, 2014 5:37:10 GMT
They didn't want to have the service there because of his faith?
That makes it different (to me) than if he had been an active member of that particular church.
To me, this is the same as wanting a Christian ceremony in a Jewish synagogue. If they agree to do it, fine, but at any point if they feel it is against their faith or the principles of their particular church/synagogue/etc, then they have an obligation to not do the service.
I hate newsstories like this. (Not criticizing your choice to bring it here, Scrappower.) While I personally believe that this gentleman deserves as respectful a burial as the next person, I don't believe anyone has the right to expect a religious group to change or make exceptions for them, not even if they had made an exception or allowed a service in the past.
While there is a currently active genocidal drive against so many in the world today, I am grateful that we still have the ability to hold beliefs that go against popular opinion in the United States.
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Post by Skypea on Aug 13, 2014 5:46:44 GMT
You are immersed in Christianity. Not everyone is. I don't think a wedding and a funeral are anywhere near the same thing, and I can easily understand other people not knowing how conservative Baptists are or whether a funeral is going to be a problem or not. I also don't understand what you're so angry about. I'm "game playing"? I'm not asking you to officiate at the darned thing. I'm asking why a church that cares so much wouldn't clarify their policy up front. I don't buy much of anything you've posted about this (same with sp and most others) you've been on the p board too long and on too many threads about Christianity and homosexuality to be this ignorant about it.
not even a smidgeon - truth is truth. that's exactly the mindset of the majority on this thread. I think you're the one who should feel ridiculous for what you've posted.
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Post by lucyg on Aug 13, 2014 6:05:33 GMT
But I'm not the one whose knowledge matters. We're talking about the deceased man's family, who presumably have not been discussing homosexuality and Christianity with the peas. We don't know what they know or understand at all. Which is why the church has a responsibility to tell them its policy before making an agreement with them. Because no, the family does not need to apologize for the dead person being gay any more than the church needs to apologize for being Christian ... no matter how badly you like to think of me.
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Post by jennyap on Aug 13, 2014 6:21:18 GMT
Again, a Baptist Pastor carried out the service. Why would the family have known that a different Baptist Pastor would treat them differently?
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Post by lucyg on Aug 13, 2014 6:27:11 GMT
That is sweet, Liz. But I don't mind Skybar/skypea. She livens up my day (yes, pathetic, I know) and I don't take it personally.
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Post by leftturnonly on Aug 13, 2014 7:13:09 GMT
Again, a Baptist Pastor carried out the service. Why would the family have known that a different Baptist Pastor would treat them differently? There's a huge range within the umbrella Baptist. You have Baptists that believe dancing is a sin to Baptists that have pretend weddings with children playing the parts and have no problem with dancing. (My own personal experience.) You can not just assume what any particular church holds important.
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Post by leftturnonly on Aug 13, 2014 7:23:24 GMT
I understand not hosting a wedding if it goes against your beliefs. But why does it matter for a funeral? We are all sinners according to Christianity, correct? So why is he not worthy of a funeral but all others are? And yes it is hate, sugar coat it all you want but to turn this down the day before for a family in their darkest time is hate. Period. I just wonder why anyone would want a funeral service in a church that they did not share a faith with. Every funeral I've ever attended that had a service in a church was because of that person's faith. They all had religious services. ETA - I'm just having trouble wrapping my brain around the request. It just seems so odd to me.
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Post by leftturnonly on Aug 13, 2014 7:38:53 GMT
I thought about this yesterday after reading about it here. I understand that people of certain religious beliefs feel that being gay is a sin, and that they should not have to "condone" that sin. However, a GOOD pastor should be kind, accepting, loving, and understanding enough to be able to hold a funeral for any kind of sinner -- gay or not. There's no such thing as a gay funeral, so it's not like that's an issue like marrying two people of the same sex would be. He wouldn't need to discuss this man's sexual preferences, any more than he'd need to discuss the sexual preferences of any other deceased person. I don't think I've ever been to a funeral where anyone talks about what someone prefers in bed. I disagree. A minister is a person representing their church at all times. It is not right for them to participate in something that goes against the tenets of the church they represent. It's a requirement of the job. At any time that a minister feels that their beliefs have come to a parting of the ways with the church, they can try to persuade the church that the church is mistaken, or they can remove themself from the church, but until that time, the obligation of their employment is to uphold the values of that particular church (or council).
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Country Ham
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by Country Ham on Aug 13, 2014 11:55:06 GMT
My husband is "good" at doing funerals for people we might consider "nonbelievers". Outside of the church the 2 funeral homes call on him regularly for funerals. It is very difficult when someone who has died has lived a life openly contrary to what you believe is "right" for lack of a better term. It just is. My husband has that gift, not every pastor does. And all a pastor has is the outward appearance to go by. He could be preaching someone into heaven at their funeral who inwardly and secretly was not worthy of it, really only God knows the heart. I asked him if he would do the funeral if one of the handful of openly gay people here were to die and my husband was asked. Two identify as Christians and are part of our faith group. The rest do not. He said he would but the focus would be more about their work in the community, their character, and the fact that God is fair and just. But would he refuse outright. No. I don't know how he would handle it though if the family specifically asked him to speak about what a wonderful "husband" he was to another man. Or to eulogize his activities in the "gay community". Perhaps that's what this family wanted? I know for us it would probably remain the "elephant in the room" at the funeral.
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Post by Merge on Aug 13, 2014 11:58:17 GMT
"Oh yeah, it's not. And the truth comes out - it really isn't about declining to participate in sin. Its been about bigotry and exclusion all along." First, the actions of one church doesn't define what all Baptist churches would do in that same situation. So that's I really don't think that this instance proves your point. But I'm not going to argue further, because it's futile. And FWIW, I think they should've allowed them to use the building. It's not so much the actions of the church as the actions of those on this thread who say on the one hand that they don't believe in hating/excluding anyone, but on the other hand defend the church's actions. Skybar has yet to tell us what sin this man committed by dying, or why, from a Christian point of view, allowing a funeral to be held for a gay man is any more objectionable than allowing one to be held for an adulterer or liar. Jodster, I don't have any argument with you here. You're not the one defending what the church did.
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Post by mollycoddle on Aug 13, 2014 12:06:04 GMT
Again, a Baptist Pastor carried out the service. Why would the family have known that a different Baptist Pastor would treat them differently? This seems strange to me as well. I guess that I would have assumed that all churches of the same faith would have the same beliefs. Obviously that is not the case. The other part that bothers me is canceling at the last minute.
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Country Ham
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by Country Ham on Aug 13, 2014 12:23:57 GMT
The other part that bothers me is canceling at the last minute. I thought about this a bit. Here someone dies on a Monday and sometimes their funeral is the next afternoon (to save on embalming costs) or perhaps Wednesday. I think any canceling would be viewed as "last minute". Funerals in their very nature are last minute things. Depending on publication of the funeral information done already 24 hours is not really last minute. I know our funeral home doesn't print the cards until right before visitation starts to allow for change of information. I think being part of a dirt small community makes a big difference too. We can be real flexible as needed and a change of venue for a funeral with 24 hours notice wouldn't make us bat an eye. But yes emotions could still be rattled depending on the reason just like here.
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AmeliaBloomer
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Jun 26, 2014 5:01:45 GMT
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Aug 13, 2014 12:33:03 GMT
Again, a Baptist Pastor carried out the service. Why would the family have known that a different Baptist Pastor would treat them differently? There's a huge range within the umbrella Baptist. (snip) You can not just assume what any particular church holds important. No, but jennyap brings up a good point. The minister who was to preside over the funeral would have a keener sense than most of the differences under the Baptist umbrella. The possibility exists he even recommended the church. Even if not, it adds an intriguing twist to the story and raises questions. I think the resident minister should have have told his flock that he was sure they would understand that he felt it was his duty to honor his agreement with a grieving family, but future funerals would not be allowed. They have a religious right to the policy, but they should also realize the HUMAN consequences to reneging on an agreement like this last minute. I would hope any group of Christians who preach compassion would agree.
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grinningcat
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Jun 26, 2014 13:06:35 GMT
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Post by grinningcat on Aug 13, 2014 12:39:02 GMT
Oh look. Skypea being obtuse and continuing to give Christianity a bad name. SSDD. As much as things change, they stay the same. FFS, I really hope she's just blowing smoke up all our asses and doesn't actually believe the crap she spews. The church was wrong. Period. End of story.
and look at you being judgmental... remember this.
Which would you rather be? The pot or the kettle? You are NOTHING but judgemental and bigoted on this board. So really, to call me judgemental is laughable because of your consistent judgemental bullshit on this board.
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AmeliaBloomer
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Aug 13, 2014 12:41:10 GMT
The other part that bothers me is canceling at the last minute. I thought about this a bit. Here someone dies on a Monday and sometimes their funeral is the next afternoon (to save on embalming costs) or perhaps Wednesday. I think any canceling would be viewed as "last minute". Funerals in their very nature are last minute things. Depending on publication of the funeral information done already 24 hours is not really last minute. I know our funeral home doesn't print the cards until right before visitation starts to allow for change of information. I think being part of a dirt small community makes a big difference too. We can be real flexible as needed and a change of venue for a funeral with 24 hours notice wouldn't make us bat an eye. But yes emotions could still be rattled depending on the reason just like here. I think I read that the agreement had been made three or four days earlier. No time to check now, but I'll look later. (I think I also read that the family was notified of the change when they were at the wake, which was probably not arranged that day.)
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Post by katiejane on Aug 13, 2014 13:26:31 GMT
I am stunned that a church would do this. I cannot imagine a church that wouldn't want to minister love to people at such a difficult and sad time. Its sad that they couldn't see beyond their self rightous indignation and seized the chance to reach out to the family. I always thought the church was a come as you are, we are all fallen sinners kinda place. Its sad that they are a you can only come under certain circumstances place. Its sad that the pastor missed the opportunity to show the family and his congregation that his God was full of grace, compassionate, loving, faithful and relevant.
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Deleted
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Oct 9, 2024 18:22:44 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2014 13:41:47 GMT
I thought about this yesterday after reading about it here. I understand that people of certain religious beliefs feel that being gay is a sin, and that they should not have to "condone" that sin. However, a GOOD pastor should be kind, accepting, loving, and understanding enough to be able to hold a funeral for any kind of sinner -- gay or not. There's no such thing as a gay funeral, so it's not like that's an issue like marrying two people of the same sex would be. He wouldn't need to discuss this man's sexual preferences, any more than he'd need to discuss the sexual preferences of any other deceased person. I don't think I've ever been to a funeral where anyone talks about what someone prefers in bed. I disagree. A minister is a person representing their church at all times. It is not right for them to participate in something that goes against the tenets of the church they represent. It's a requirement of the job. At any time that a minister feels that their beliefs have come to a parting of the ways with the church, they can try to persuade the church that the church is mistaken, or they can remove themself from the church, but until that time, the obligation of their employment is to uphold the values of that particular church (or council). But leftturn, don't pastors and ministers hold funerals for sinners all the time? According to all the Christians I know, everyone is a sinner. No where in the Bible does it say that a gay person can't have a funeral.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2014 15:11:15 GMT
I understand not hosting a wedding if it goes against your beliefs. But why does it matter for a funeral? We are all sinners according to Christianity, correct? So why is he not worthy of a funeral but all others are? And yes it is hate, sugar coat it all you want but to turn this down the day before for a family in their darkest time is hate. Period. I just wonder why anyone would want a funeral service in a church that they did not share a faith with. Every funeral I've ever attended that had a service in a church was because of that person's faith. They all had religious services. ETA - I'm just having trouble wrapping my brain around the request. It just seems so odd to me. But they did share the faith. And even if not they were having their own officiant run the service.
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Country Ham
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Post by Country Ham on Aug 13, 2014 16:16:22 GMT
But leftturn, don't pastors and ministers hold funerals for sinners all the time? According to all the Christians I know, everyone is a sinner. For some reason it will not let me click outside the quote box to reply. I think the sticky area would be that the sins are not glorified at a funeral. No one pays hommage to someone's adultery, fornication, stealing, gossiping etc. No family member is going to ask a pastor to do so. No layperson speaking during the service would do so. How would the pastor handle it if they agree to the funeral then the family request the pastor to talk about him being a wonderful husband? Or how he was dedicated to gay rights? how he loved to participate in gay pride parades etc? I personally think you would be better off to say 'no' from the get go then to get into that sticky situation. He would no more speak those things than say "mary was a wonderful adulterer". ETA: but like I said earlier as long as my husband wasn't asked to speak things publicly that supported homosexuality during a funeral he would do it. he would tread very carefully and he might suggest someone else to the family if he thought he couldn't do it in a way they would be comforted.
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Post by leftturnonly on Aug 13, 2014 16:16:23 GMT
I disagree. A minister is a person representing their church at all times. It is not right for them to participate in something that goes against the tenets of the church they represent. It's a requirement of the job. At any time that a minister feels that their beliefs have come to a parting of the ways with the church, they can try to persuade the church that the church is mistaken, or they can remove themself from the church, but until that time, the obligation of their employment is to uphold the values of that particular church (or council). But leftturn, don't pastors and ministers hold funerals for sinners all the time? According to all the Christians I know, everyone is a sinner. No where in the Bible does it say that a gay person can't have a funeral. That we are all sinners is something a Baptist minister holds as a fundamental truth. Correct. Within church buildings, it is important to honor the beliefs of that church & fellowship. Custom and tradition hold the people together in a calming and comforting way. It is a place to escape to from the weight of the world. Because of that, it is a place where change often comes slowly. Here's an example.... There are services that are considered more traditional. They sing old hymns, people tend to dress up more, services follow long-set patterns and are attended more by the older generations than the younger. The younger generations tend to favor contemporary services with guitars and drums, modern music, and a more relaxed dress code. The message remains the same in both kinds of services, but since the needs of different parts of the congregation are different, many churches offer multiple services on Sunday that are presented differently. A church that unilaterally decided to end all traditional services would must likely lose those congregants. You can't force people to change, especially when there are other options available to them in the form of other churches within the area. This funeral falls into that category. I haven't read the specifics on this church, but I'm pretty sure it holds a traditional belief in marriage as a union blessed by God between a man and a woman, and the idea that homosexuality is immoral on a primal level. Recognizing that homosexuality may not be the choice or immorality universally believed for thousands of years is an enormous change. Not everyone can understand why people believe so differently now than they did just a few short years ago. To the best of their understanding, the world is quickly going to Hell and they do not want to go along just to get along with this more current view. The very last thing that a congregation wants is to feel betrayed within the walls of their church. It's a devastating thing, truly. I've been in congregations where ministers have fallen badly, and it shook people hard. A minister is someone who is expected to have compassion for all. If this same minister was asked to speak at the graveside or at a service for a homosexual person outside of the church property, more people would consider that acceptable and not a violation of their sacred sanctuary. I do think that many churches will be changing their fundamental ideals regarding same-sex marriages. The needs of their congregations are changing and they will change to continue to serve the people. It just seems like a shame to force this onto a fundamental church who may never embrace this change in beliefs. The arrangements for the service should never have been made and whether there was a contract or not, if this was against the fundamental beliefs of that church, the service should not have been held there. It is a very sad case. It's a terrible thing to lose someone you love, and this added stress makes it that much harder. If the arrangements were made through some kind of misguidance, I hope that the family and friends will be able to forgive and accept the error. If the arrangements were made to try to force a church into accepting homosexuality, than that was an error on that end. This man's funeral should not be used as a tool in someone's agenda to change the practices of an institution. I don't know the details of this situation. Now that there has been one case, there will be others. It's something that church leaderships across the country will have to consider and policies will have to be decided. Most likely, there was no policy in place because the situation had never been considered.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2014 16:35:03 GMT
Oh. I didn't realize that ministers, pastors, etc wouldn't talk about someone as a loving partner if they weren't married. I guess no one who is common-law married can have a funeral in a church.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2014 16:44:47 GMT
Conjecturing a list of possible topics that may be offensive to a clergy person, as a reason why a gay person shouldn't have a funeral in a church is nothing more than a list of excuses to justify homophobia (an extreme and irrational aversion to homosexuality and homosexual people).
Because, I've never heard that fat people should be denied having church funerals because the pastor may be asked to speak about their love of food: gluttony is a sin.
The sheer amount of mental loops people go to in order to justify their intolerance and continual denial of equal treatment for gays must be absolutely exhausting. If the same amount of effort was put into being a loving, caring person, I think the world would be a tiny bit better.
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Country Ham
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Post by Country Ham on Aug 13, 2014 16:52:36 GMT
How you took what I said and came up with this is just as twisting of words my dear.
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Post by gar on Aug 13, 2014 16:53:37 GMT
Conjecturing a list of possible topics that may be offensive to a clergy person, as a reason why a gay person shouldn't have a funeral in a church is nothing more than a list of excuses to justify homophobia (an extreme and irrational aversion to homosexuality and homosexual people). Because, I've never heard that fat people should be denied having church funerals because the pastor may be asked to speak about their love of food: gluttony is a sin. The sheer amount of mental loops people go to in order to justify their intolerance and continual denial of equal treatment for gays must be absolutely exhausting. If the same amount of effort was put into being a loving, caring person, I think the world would be a tiny bit better. *standing ovation*
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Post by Tamhugh on Aug 13, 2014 16:58:34 GMT
I get totally pissed off when certain Christian denominations try to cram their way of thinking down my throat but in return I try not to cram my way of thinking down their throat. Hopefully they can get the message eventually and leave me in peace with my own beliefs as i try to leave them in peace with theirs. If that respect does not go both ways it won't go at all. This is where I am. I think it is sad that they made this choice. When I was choosing a church as an adult, I chose a church that supported my belief system for this reason. As an aside, don't Catholic and Jewish cemeteries forbid burial for people for different reasons? I know that was true in the past, but I don't know how much has changed. If divorced Catholics cannot take part in any of the sacraments, can't the Church refuse to do a funeral?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2014 17:00:13 GMT
I get totally pissed off when certain Christian denominations try to cram their way of thinking down my throat but in return I try not to cram my way of thinking down their throat. Hopefully they can get the message eventually and leave me in peace with my own beliefs as i try to leave them in peace with theirs. If that respect does not go both ways it won't go at all. This is where I am. I think it is sad that they made this choice. When I was choosing a church as an adult, I chose a church that supported my belief system for this reason. As an aside, don't Catholic and Jewish cemeteries forbid burial for people for different reasons? I know that was true in the past, but I don't know how much has changed. If divorced Catholics cannot take part in any of the sacraments, can't the Church refuse to do a funeral? But they tell you this up front. They don't say yes sure. And then the day before say oh he's gay. Nevermind find somewhere else.
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naby64
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Post by naby64 on Aug 13, 2014 17:09:33 GMT
Just dipping my toes in here, but I am a Baptist church secretary in the south. I haven't read all of this thread but just the few posts above me. I know of possible wedding that was supposed to happen here last October. Our pastor met with the couple. He found out they were living together and he told them unless they lived apart before the wedding, he wouldn't marry them in our church. I also truly think he would not hold a service here if the person were gay. I do not think it is right. We are all sinners. I know people in this church who have been married, divorced and remarried spouses and continue to all go to church here. That's an odd one. BUT in the Bible divorce, adultery well, we all know what it is considered. Let me also say, that I remain silent on many things that go on here because I disagree with them. My pastor and I don't see eye to eye on many things.
All this to say, that there are just some things that are to the bone beliefs in Baptist faith. Would I call it hate? I just don't think that it is. It is just a core belief dealing with what they believe right and wrong.
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Post by Tamhugh on Aug 13, 2014 17:10:33 GMT
This is where I am. I think it is sad that they made this choice. When I was choosing a church as an adult, I chose a church that supported my belief system for this reason. As an aside, don't Catholic and Jewish cemeteries forbid burial for people for different reasons? I know that was true in the past, but I don't know how much has changed. If divorced Catholics cannot take part in any of the sacraments, can't the Church refuse to do a funeral? But they tell you this up front. They don't say yes sure. And then the day before say oh he's gay. Nevermind find somewhere else. Oh, I totally agree. That part is awful. But I also think that, since the deceased was not a member of the church, they didn't know this fact. I don't think it is common around here to have a funeral at a church where you are not a member, so I don't really know how that would work. Everyone I know who didn't have a church, held funerals right at the funeral home. Personally, I would never belong to a church with these beliefs. But, I don't want churches to be forced to do things that go against what they believe either. That crosses the separation line too much for me since I want the church to stay out of government as well.
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