Deleted
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Oct 9, 2024 18:17:33 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2014 22:14:58 GMT
The article said that no one at New Hope knew Evans was gay - they didn't know until the obit was published and listed him as having a 'husband'.
No one in the office would have asked if this was for an openly gay man since the request came from family familiar with the church and/or a sister church. Is it possible that the family who loved this man tried to slip this service in, getting the go-ahead and putting enough public pressure on the church for them to change their policy? And then, when the church remained true to their well-stated beliefs, they turned to the media to try to shame the church into embracing changes they don't want to make? The person designated to make funeral arrangements within the church does not have the authority to change church policy or the tenets of belief the church is built on. Even the minister in charge would have to face the leadership and congregation for such a breach of trust in the principles of the church, and some form of discipline would be expected. Do you really think that this family in their time if grief is trying to "frame" the church. I'm sorry but you are reaching so far it isn't even funny.
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Deleted
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Oct 9, 2024 18:17:33 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2014 22:18:40 GMT
Again, I disagree. There is a very good reason to cancel the arrangements if the service violates the deepest beliefs of the people the church represents. Whether *you* think their reasons are ridiculous, hypocritical or unChristian is irrelevant to what *they* believe. Sexuality is always relevant. If this man was homosexual and abstinent, this would not have been an issue. His choice - his very human choice - to have a same sex partner is a condition that could not be swept aside by this church. You're talking about a human construct - a church - built so humans of similar beliefs could freely assemble. The entire purpose of a church is to support and nurture these shared beliefs. Change on such a dramatic level - the normalization of homosexuality after thousands of years of considering it immoral - will not happen overnight and it will not happen in every church.
That does not make them unChristian. It makes them human. Because it was so well said, I think it needs to be repeated. Emphasis mine.
Every time I see the words "It's 2014" in regards to this discussion, the emphasized part of the above quote is what I think of.
I agree that the church should have had the service because as many have said on this thread....sin is sin.
BUT I also agree with Lefty's statement.
This is one of those situations where I see both sides, obviously. I am Baptist, and I know a huge number of Baptists. I am surrounded by them every Sunday. I have had quite a few discussions with Baptist friends in the last year regarding the treatment of gays by conservative Christians, and my friends that I've had the discussions with agree with me that we have a LONG way to go.
This situation seems simple, but because of issues like the ones that Lefty enumerated above, it is not. It is very complex.
One thing I would like to add: Do any of you have a relative that is kind of rude, speaks their mind a lot, and when they open their mouth you cringe? I do. And it's like that with conservative Christians sometimes. The Christians that are the most judgmental and rude are the ones that stand out from the crowd and seemingly never shut their mouths. But they DON'T represent the rest of us.
I will never stop trying to help people in my church understand that some of them have the wrong attitudes toward gays, and hopefully things will eventually get better. But it's not going to happen over night, for the reasons Lefty mentioned.
ETA: It won't let me delete grinningcat's name, and I don't want people to get confused. Very annoying...I'm quoting LEFTY not GC.
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Post by Skypea on Aug 15, 2014 1:50:07 GMT
Again, I disagree. There is a very good reason to cancel the arrangements if the service violates the deepest beliefs of the people the church represents. Whether *you* think their reasons are ridiculous, hypocritical or unChristian is irrelevant to what *they* believe. Sexuality is always relevant. If this man was homosexual and abstinent, this would not have been an issue. His choice - his very human choice - to have a same sex partner is a condition that could not be swept aside by this church. You're talking about a human construct - a church - built so humans of similar beliefs could freely assemble. The entire purpose of a church is to support and nurture these shared beliefs. Change on such a dramatic level - the normalization of homosexuality after thousands of years of considering it immoral - will not happen overnight and it will not happen in every church.
That does not make them unChristian. It makes them human. Because it was so well said, I think it needs to be repeated. Emphasis mine.
Every time I see the words "It's 2014" in regards to this discussion, the emphasized part of the above quote is what I think of.
I agree that the church should have had the service because as many have said on this thread....sin is sin.
BUT I also agree with Lefty's statement. I would have thought you'd know the difference. It's been asked over and over on here but no one has really explained it. It's vaguely in the post by LTO.
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Post by leftturnonly on Aug 15, 2014 10:27:30 GMT
Wake up, Scrappower. Just wake up. This is a branch of Christianity that values its ways and holds close to them. One man and one woman matrimony is a sacred commitment made with God as a central component. An obvious idea, I remind you, for thousands of years shared by people of all faiths in all places around the globe. It's an old religion that has served people well for a very long time and it is not open to adaptations based on the whims of the state. Same-sex marriage has been legal in a few places for how many minutes now? Even the President of the United States was against same sex marriage before he was for it. The people who had this funeral to arrange could not have been so naive as to believe this service would not be an issue with this particular church, or they wouldn't have been as understanding as they claim they would have been if they had been turned down directly at that point. So, did they tell the person from the church that this may be something that needed to be reviewed by someone who had the authority to OK this obviously different funeral? Did they spell it out in writing so there would be no confusion? Why count on a church doing something it doesn't do to hold a service so significant as the funeral for someone you love? Gay men are not treated equally. It's the flat out truth. It's not ridiculous to consider the idea that someone may have thought this would be a good time to show how homosexual adults are not treated the same way as heterosexual adults. I don't think you'd have far to look to find someone willing to try to shame the church for this inequality. I can't say that I would blame anyone if they did. Take your moral outrage and put it to better use.
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Country Ham
Pearl Clutcher
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Jun 25, 2014 19:32:08 GMT
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Post by Country Ham on Aug 15, 2014 11:39:54 GMT
Would there of been just as much outcry had the church said NO right from the start? At first I thought the biggest upset was because this was done the day before the funeral, but now I am beginning to wonder.
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anniebygaslight
Drama Llama
I'd love a cup of tea. #1966
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Jun 28, 2014 14:08:19 GMT
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Post by anniebygaslight on Aug 15, 2014 11:47:38 GMT
... It's;the timing that makes it awful for me - if you know you've got several hundred people supposed to be attending a service, you must surely realise that giving less than 24 hours notice of a cancellation makes it nigh on impossible to both make alternative arrangements and contact all the attendees in that time. I get what Lefty is saying about the position the church leadership were in, but that aspect still just sucks.
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Deleted
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Oct 9, 2024 18:17:33 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2014 13:50:55 GMT
Wake up, Scrappower. Just wake up. This is a branch of Christianity that values its ways and holds close to them. One man and one woman matrimony is a sacred commitment made with God as a central component. An obvious idea, I remind you, for thousands of years shared by people of all faiths in all places around the globe. It's an old religion that has served people well for a very long time and it is not open to adaptations based on the whims of the state. Same-sex marriage has been legal in a few places for how many minutes now? Even the President of the United States was against same sex marriage before he was for it. The people who had this funeral to arrange could not have been so naive as to believe this service would not be an issue with this particular church, or they wouldn't have been as understanding as they claim they would have been if they had been turned down directly at that point. So, did they tell the person from the church that this may be something that needed to be reviewed by someone who had the authority to OK this obviously different funeral? Did they spell it out in writing so there would be no confusion? Why count on a church doing something it doesn't do to hold a service so significant as the funeral for someone you love? Gay men are not treated equally. It's the flat out truth. It's not ridiculous to consider the idea that someone may have thought this would be a good time to show how homosexual adults are not treated the same way as heterosexual adults. I don't think you'd have far to look to find someone willing to try to shame the church for this inequality. I can't say that I would blame anyone if they did. Take your moral outrage and put it to better use. Alrighty then. I'm very awake thank you very much. Don't tell me where to put my moral outrage. I can make my own opinions. I think you are reaching and making assumptions that are plain ridiculous.
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Deleted
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Oct 9, 2024 18:17:33 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2014 13:53:12 GMT
Would there of been just as much outcry had the church said NO right from the start? At first I thought the biggest upset was because this was done the day before the funeral, but now I am beginning to wonder. I wouldn't have cared. I believe a church is free to make it own decisions. But to do what they did in the way they did is just sad. I have never ever said a church should be forced to perform gay marriages, etcetera.
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Dalai Mama
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Jun 26, 2014 0:31:31 GMT
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Post by Dalai Mama on Aug 15, 2014 14:15:52 GMT
I'm not religious either. Christianity isn't a religion. Not until you want protection under the First Amendment. Then it's a religion.
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AmeliaBloomer
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Jun 26, 2014 5:01:45 GMT
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Aug 15, 2014 14:25:32 GMT
My problem is the timing, but now I'm just curious:
Those of you from very conservative denominations: is the problem the man's sexual orientation or his marriage? If the former - well, gay people are in the habit of dying. Have you never had (openly) gay congregants, or you did, and they used a funeral home?
If the latter (the marriage), would that sin trump the sin of homosexuality, which would trigger the denial?
I'm seriously - not snarkily - curious.
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Post by I-95 on Aug 15, 2014 14:33:12 GMT
I do know that in my faith group it's not uncommon to use the "big churches building" for large funerals. The preacher of that church doesn't perform the service. The preacher of the families choice does. Honestly though I can't think of anyone using the building and fellowship hall that are not of the same beliefs. They just need a bigger building. I think this is where I'm having a problem.... I don't see any Church as just a 'bigger building'. My mom attended the same neighborhood church for 50+ years, but we all knew that when she passed that it would not be big enough to accommodate the attendees, so we arranged for the funeral to be held at the Cathedral. She had attended services at the Cathedral many times over the years and was well know to all the Priests and staff so that was fine. It didn't even cross our minds to think 'The Lutheran Church is just a block away and it's big enough, let's have the funeral there' Isn't a Church, Synagogue, or Mosque an extension of the people who built it, raise their children there, worship there? It seems to me that it's not 'just a building'. I would no more think of asking the Rabbi at the Temple Beth Israel to use their 'building' to hold a Catholic Mass just because the building could accommodate the expected crowd, than I would have approached the Franciscans to hold a service for my mom....who was a strong supporter of the Jesuit movement. If it's just the size of the building, then why didn't the Tampa family hold the funeral at the high school auditorium, or the Fairgrounds, or the ballroom at the Hilton? If they wanted the service to be kept in the same faith community that the deceased shared, then how is that they didn't know the church they chose was opposed to gay relationships? I find it next to impossible to believe that if the deceased's husband arranged the funeral, that their same sex marriage didn't come up at all. I can't imagine arranging a funeral for my DH without ever once using the words 'my husband' even if it were as simple as 'My husband wanted Amazing Grace played as the service started'. How did this man never once mention his wife? How is it that if they worshiped regularly with any Baptist congregation in the area, that he was ignorant of the way other Baptist congregations viewed same sex relationships? This is Florida we're talking about here, it's not the most progressively religious State around. While I think it's inconvenient for the family to have to make other arrangements at the last minute, I truly don't believe they were ignorant of the beliefs of this particular church. If they attended another same faith based local church, wouldn't it have been logical to confer with their own pastor and seek his recommendation before approaching another church? I would be gobsmacked if his pastor didn't know the beliefs of ALL the local churches, not just the Baptist ones...but he sure as heck would know how other Baptist churches felt about gay relationships. Something is just not right with this story....IMHO.
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Post by scrapqueen01 on Aug 15, 2014 17:56:19 GMT
This morning I was telling one of my pastors about this story and discussions we have had on it. He said the official stance for the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod is that the churches can hold funeral services for anyone who is Christian or non-Christian in the churches. The pastors can even officiate those funerals as they have an order of service for Christians and non-Christians.
In my denomination it would be the marriage or the relationship that would be the problem not a persons' sexual orientation. The reason the marriage is the problem is because of Matthew:19-4-6 which says: 4 He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.”
This is the verse used in all of our marriage services.
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Post by moveablefeast on Aug 15, 2014 19:02:46 GMT
I do know that in my faith group it's not uncommon to use the "big churches building" for large funerals. The preacher of that church doesn't perform the service. The preacher of the families choice does. Honestly though I can't think of anyone using the building and fellowship hall that are not of the same beliefs. They just need a bigger building. I think this is where I'm having a problem.... I don't see any Church as just a 'bigger building'. My mom attended the same neighborhood church for 50+ years, but we all knew that when she passed that it would not be big enough to accommodate the attendees, so we arranged for the funeral to be held at the Cathedral. She had attended services at the Cathedral many times over the years and was well know to all the Priests and staff so that was fine. It didn't even cross our minds to think 'The Lutheran Church is just a block away and it's big enough, let's have the funeral there' Isn't a Church, Synagogue, or Mosque an extension of the people who built it, raise their children there, worship there? It seems to me that it's not 'just a building'. I would no more think of asking the Rabbi at the Temple Beth Israel to use their 'building' to hold a Catholic Mass just because the building could accommodate the expected crowd, than I would have approached the Franciscans to hold a service for my mom....who was a strong supporter of the Jesuit movement. If it's just the size of the building, then why didn't the Tampa family hold the funeral at the high school auditorium, or the Fairgrounds, or the ballroom at the Hilton? If they wanted the service to be kept in the same faith community that the deceased shared, then how is that they didn't know the church they chose was opposed to gay relationships? I find it next to impossible to believe that if the deceased's husband arranged the funeral, that their same sex marriage didn't come up at all. I can't imagine arranging a funeral for my DH without ever once using the words 'my husband' even if it were as simple as 'My husband wanted Amazing Grace played as the service started'. How did this man never once mention his wife? How is it that if they worshiped regularly with any Baptist congregation in the area, that he was ignorant of the way other Baptist congregations viewed same sex relationships? This is Florida we're talking about here, it's not the most progressively religious State around. While I think it's inconvenient for the family to have to make other arrangements at the last minute, I truly don't believe they were ignorant of the beliefs of this particular church. If they attended another same faith based local church, wouldn't it have been logical to confer with their own pastor and seek his recommendation before approaching another church? I would be gobsmacked if his pastor didn't know the beliefs of ALL the local churches, not just the Baptist ones...but he sure as heck would know how other Baptist churches felt about gay relationships. Something is just not right with this story....IMHO. In a previous job, I coordinated weddings and funerals for a large, busy church. We would often have three or four weddings going on in a weekend, and I think the most funerals we ever had in one week was five. Not every week, but I would say our average was one or two a week. So, a lot. Our main sanctuary can hold 1000 people and is very traditional and across the street from one of the larger funeral homes in our area. Stalkers, that is a ton of info. LOL. Anyway. Given the type of building and the location, we had requests all the time from people wanting to use the building. We would accommodate any funeral we could accommodate logistically. We had a policy to never turn anyone away if we could at all avoid it. If the funeral was to be conducted by another pastor or a layperson, we would have that pastor meet with our pastor to cover any ground rules that would apply. Sometimes we would have one of our adjunct clergy co-officiate a service in an advisory role if a guest officiant was very unfamiliar with our space. Some people did some wacky things. I remember one family wanted to cense the casket with burning rosemary. We said okay. Another family had some colorful eulogies to be sure. One family had a traditional Nigerian funeral and you could hear the howling and mourning out on the street. It's what they do. You get all types. I'm sure it's different in other places, but we are absolutely just a building to some people, and that's okay with me. Not everyone has a history with us, but some families need a big space to celebrate the life of a loved one with many in attendance. I remember hosting one funeral for a Baptist family whose high-school aged child passed away in a dreadful accident - the mourners were spilling out the front steps onto the lawn - boy, we couldn't have been any more different but a lot of people needed a lot of comfort that day. They didn't need to have grown up with us to be welcome to mark such an occasion in our space. They just needed a big building and we had the great privilege of adding a group of staff and lay volunteers to care for the people who showed up. Weddings are a whole different story. But funerals - it was a huge privilege to me, to have a family call us up out of the blue and say we are just desperate to find a place to have a funeral and to be able to say sure, come on down, we'll do it. We have this beautiful building, but it's not just ours, it's God's, it's for God's work. I understand that other churches may not have the staff or the resources to accommodate non-member funerals. Just like we don't have the resources to provide food for a funeral reception and some churches wouldn't dream of letting a funeral go on without doing that. What we could do was open the doors and maybe provide some music. But I think not having the resources to do it is one thing, not having a heart to do it is something else. I don't like the idea of a church community that is very insular in that way, being focused mostly on the people who built it, or the people whose children grew up there. I once heard a pastor say that he thought the church was the only organization that really exists for the good of people who aren't even a member of it, and that always stuck with me.
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Deleted
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Oct 9, 2024 18:17:33 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2014 19:05:40 GMT
Moveable feast, I always enjoy your posts. Your kindness and compassion always shines through. I think I would like to be more like you.
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Post by I-95 on Aug 15, 2014 20:54:51 GMT
Moveablefeast...thank you. That was a beautiful explanation...however...
I guess what I'm struggling with and always have, is why, if someone doesn't attend church on a semi-regular basis, would they suddenly have to have their loved one sent off from a church. I remember getting into a HUGE argument with one of my brothers, who quit going to Mass when he was about 16, but suddenly when he was 28 felt the need to get married in a big, fancy ceremony in a church! I doubt he and his wife attended another service until they wanted their first born to be baptized. WTH was he when the building needed to be painted, or the flowers arranged for Sunday services? If he needed a building to hold a service, go rent the yacht club, they have a nice facility, but this sudden need to have God's blessing seems a little/lot hypocritical to me.
I can understand needing a larger facility than your local Parish Church can provide, but it never crossed my mind that anyone would choose a facility that was outside their own faith to accommodate the crowd....and even then I don't see why it has to be in a church building. You can have the needed accouterments brought into a non-religious building, and still have your own Pastor/Priest/Rabbi conduct a service.
Getting back to the Tampa situation...if the family had asked to use the Church you work for, and the man's Pastor had met with the Pastor at your church to discuss the service...and presuming for the moment, that your Church disapproved of same sex marriage, would the deceased's same sex marriage not have come in conversation? I still can't wrap my head around the fact that it didn't come up at all in making of arrangements for the man in Tampa. I would have thought the Pastor at the Church they wanted to use would have asked some simple questions like the name of the deceased's wife. I still think there's something a little off about the story we're hearing from the deceased's husband.
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Post by Skypea on Aug 15, 2014 21:30:28 GMT
I'm not religious either. Christianity isn't a religion. Not until you want protection under the First Amendment. Then it's a religion.
the 1st amendment matters to you?
I think it's one of those words used as a generic - to be inclusive.
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Post by moveablefeast on Aug 15, 2014 21:45:01 GMT
Long story short - I think people have this natural inclination, whether cultural or otherwise, to look for a church in these moments in life. It's the same thing that makes people baptize their babies after having not darkened the door of a church in 20 years.
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Dalai Mama
Drama Llama
La Pea Boheme
Posts: 6,985
Jun 26, 2014 0:31:31 GMT
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Post by Dalai Mama on Aug 15, 2014 22:35:04 GMT
Not until you want protection under the First Amendment. Then it's a religion.
the 1st amendment matters to you?
I think it's one of those words used as a generic - to be inclusive. 'Religion' is a word that's inclusive of all religions. Christianity fits the definition. Is it generic? Sure, just like the word 'colour' is generic. But saying that Christianity isn't a religion is like saying blue isn't a colour.
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Country Ham
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,314
Jun 25, 2014 19:32:08 GMT
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Post by Country Ham on Aug 18, 2014 16:08:28 GMT
Since my husband is a conservative pastor and my stance on same sex relationships are no secret I decided to ask him what he would do. He hadn't heard about the situation since it didn't make our news. He didn't even hesitate "I would do it of course". He said when you get down to it the body is just a shell of the former person. Their soul is gone, the spirit of who they were is gone. Their eternity has been determined before they died and it's about comfort to the family at that point.
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