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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2016 22:21:05 GMT
The good old days were not for everyone. They just weren't---no matter how much people try to say it. I was there. There have always been personal attacks (yes, I saw the "leave the country" posts back in the day too. ) I'm not condoning anyone's behavior, but the revisionist history bugs the crap out of me. Anyway, I don't get why anyone needs to leave over politics. This board is a lot more than politics. I don't post much anymore. I pay attention to what I want and ignore the rest. It can be done. It's even easier than FB to ignore stuff here. If people want to leave, fine, but the attempted guilt trips are ridiculous. This type of post shows you just don't get it. It's not "leaving over politics" --It's the attitude behind it and the refusal to see it's NOT the same as 8 years ago. It just isn't. And it's not guilt trips, it's trying to explain and hopefully change this before it's too late. I just deleted 2 peas from my phone which is where I pea 99% of the time. I need to wean myself from here because I don't want to be part of this anymore. I'm saddened to know Lauren was banned, I think that's bullshit and further reason to just leave. I know you have me on ignore now, so I'm not sure why I'm bothering, but oh well. I understand that the consensus on the conservative side is that they did not engage in personal attacks about Obama's win or the war. With all respect, please hear those of us who most definitely *did* have personal attacks hurled at us in those times. Being told to leave the country, that we were unpatriotic, that we were too stupid to understand what was happening, that we didn't love our children because we were ruining the world for them, and so on. Those are just the ones I remember hearing directed at me - and I know others heard much much worse. And you know what? They hurt. It hurt to hear comments from that from a community I loved. We aren't making this up. This is also not an effort to say justify anything. I think the behavior back then was shitty and the same kind of behavior today is shitty. Regardless of who is making personal attacks, it's wrong. I know you think I am a pea who is making personal attacks, so you probably don't believe that I think that, but I do. This is an effort to say it is a natural - though entirely undesirable - human reaction to lash out when fearful. Lots of peas are fearful now, just as lots of peas were fearful back then. It was rough going years ago and it's going to be rough going for a while yet now. It is still very fresh. But it *will* calmn down. We will all get back to normal. But it is not profoundly different. It really isn't. |
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Post by Drew on Nov 12, 2016 22:21:29 GMT
If she did this, then it is wrong and I will not defend her. The mean peas on the liberal side that were calling the conservative side horrible names should also go. Yes, she did it. And the "mean peas" on the liberal side have nothing to do with HER behavior on many threads. again, this thread is useless. I'm not going to continue to engage in people who refuse to take responsibility for their friends behavior and instead justify it with "they did it tooooo." You got a "you're decent" out of her, probably all you're gonna get. Decent. How generous. I'm sorry for what you've gone through. |
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Post by melanell on Nov 12, 2016 22:28:00 GMT
Why not just leave, why the need to announce it? You know, I think a person if kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place with this kind of thing. Sometimes people feel that they need a break or that a board isn't a good fit for them, and they just leave. And inevitably, eventually, someone notices and a thread is started asking about them, and people may be concerned about them, or people may start imagining reasons for their departure that are more drama filled than the truth of the matter. And so if someone chooses to let people know they are leaving, particularly if it is done without a lot of theatrics (and while I certainly see hurt feelings and emotion in the OP, I do not see any unnecessary histrionics) they can avoid that type of uncertainty for those still in the forum. And I see that as a good thing. However, the flip side is that it's very, very difficult to write out any sort of "Sorry, but this forum isn't working for me anymore." post without offending someone or upsetting someone or opening up a can of worms. You also run the risk of the ever charming "Don't let the door hit you on the way out" type of comments. And really, who wants to see that? So I can totally see both sides to this. because I have left forums without any formal goodbye, but I've also been one of the people left wondering, worrying, or (sadly, yes) bickering over someone's unannounced departure. In a perfect world every forum we try out would work beautifully for us and we'd all hold hands and sing Kumbaya, but our world's far from perfect, so sometimes we're stuck in these sticky social media situations.  Save |
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Mystie
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by Mystie on Nov 12, 2016 22:32:59 GMT
As a very long time Pea, I have memories back to the time around 9/11, when I was called every name in the book because I disagreed with the Iraq War and mentioned I'd been to a protest. wildcat mom was one of those people who also told me that I needed to leave the country. No sympathy here. I remember that very well, too. I'm sorry everybody is hurting and I'm sorry for whatever part I have played in that. But there was no golden time when politics was not a brawling and painful topic for the Peas. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2016 22:42:16 GMT
As a very long time Pea, I have memories back to the time around 9/11, when I was called every name in the book because I disagreed with the Iraq War and mentioned I'd been to a protest. wildcat mom was one of those people who also told me that I needed to leave the country. No sympathy here. I remember that very well, too. I'm sorry everybody is hurting and I'm sorry for whatever part I have played in that. But there was no golden time when politics was not a brawling and painful topic for the Peas. So much this. |
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Post by peasapie on Nov 12, 2016 22:45:00 GMT
She usually couldn't even post an innocuous thread about how lovely the sunshine was today without some Pea saying something lousy to her. She wasn't good at shrugging things off, but she definitely was NOT deserving of banning. She told people their child were wienies for seeking help from a counselor if they were upset over the election. I agree with the ban. I will never condone wishing ill on a child or condemning them for seeking help. She has a long history (the first one goes years back). You think she's turned around after starting a coloring thread or posting pictures of her family and then berates parents for seeking help for their children. I saw that and was very disappointed in her. Furthermore, I don't recall any conservatives here speaking up about that. |
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Post by snowsilver on Nov 12, 2016 22:45:19 GMT
Ilovecookies said:
I WISH I could figure out how to quote after there are a ton of other posts after the one I'm trying to respond to. I always end up with every post on the thread. So I have to do a copy and paste thing. Anyway, yep, that was bad of Lauren. Don't disagree. I was planning to draw your attention to the lovely response from mzza111 but upon reading further, I found that you had called Lauren out on her comment (nicely) and had ALSO called out mzza. So didn't need to go into that.
I do not know Lauren personally. I know people who do. They like her. Both liberals and conservatives. And I think the anger conservatives are feeling today (and part of the reason for the exodus from the board) is the fact that Lauren has been banned while people like mzza111 are still here (there are others but what good does it do to name them!).
I'm so sorry that you think I am selective in my defenses--I probably am. I try to be honest but I guess I'm as prone as the next person to see things through my narrow glasses. Thank you so much for the pleasant conversation here. I have appreciated it.
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Post by femalebusiness on Nov 12, 2016 22:54:25 GMT
Trump's policies are starting to be formed, but they aren't lining up with his campaign promises. Repealing Obamacare was a huge promise. I don't remember if it made the first 100 days contract with America, but it was a constant throughout the election cycle. And now he's met with Pres. Obama and saying he might fix it instead of remove it. Another campaign theme was that we need to drain the swamp and the elites need to be kicked out. Big money and lobbyists shouldn't be governing us. Only he's got lobbyists advising him now. I've been a lurker for years and years and years. I've seen the ebb and flow of this board. I've walked away and come back to read more (and now I'm participating). My heart hurts for people that are subject to vicious personal attacks. I'll say to that exactly what I told my 7 year olds when I sent them to school on Wednesday morning: If you see bullying, it is your job to say something. If you see any of your brown classmates being told that they are going to get kicked out of America and they don't belong here, YOU go over there and say THAT IS NOT TRUE. We are so much more willing to use our words as weapons when we are sitting behind a keyboard.  |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2016 23:05:21 GMT
Ilovecookies said:I WISH I could figure out how to quote after there are a ton of other posts after the one I'm trying to respond to. I always end up with every post on the thread. So I have to do a copy and paste thing. Anyway, yep, that was bad of Lauren. Don't disagree. I was planning to draw your attention to the lovely response from mzza111 but upon reading further, I found that you had called Lauren out on her comment (nicely) and had ALSO called out mzza. So didn't need to go into that. I do not know Lauren personally. I know people who do. They like her. Both liberals and conservatives. And I think the anger conservatives are feeling today (and part of the reason for the exodus from the board) is the fact that Lauren has been banned while people like mzza111 are still here (there are others but what good does it do to name them!). I'm so sorry that you think I am selective in my defenses--I probably am. I try to be honest but I guess I'm as prone as the next person to see things through my narrow glasses. Thank you so much for the pleasant conversation here. I have appreciated it. No problem, and thanks back to you for replying and being honest. It's true that we all have our own biases. I'm guilty of it, too. I haven't checked, but I did want to say that mzza111 has seemed very quiet, and I've suspected that she, too was banned. She was definitely just as much out of line the other night, and has been often. Again, I'm not sure, have no "insider" knowledge at ALL, but IMO she's been awfully quiet during today's drama. I do agree that things have been rough around here on all sides on this election go-round. It's always been really bad during elections, and I do appreciate those who want to stick it out. I'm going to. I stuck it out through all the viciousness over at the original NSBR, so I want to do the same here. Despite all our dysfunction, it's a great group overall. I did grow up in an extremely, extremely dysfunctional family, though, so maybe I have built up some sort of super immunity  |
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Post by terri on Nov 12, 2016 23:12:31 GMT
It is very odd to me to go on to Facebook and here and see some of the same people who disliked political correctness, made fun of safe paces, talked about personal responsibility for your feelings and used the term special snowflake repeatedly, complain because they feel like they are being treated unfairly. I was on the old board too; I think I registered there in 2001. Elections were always rough there. People who supported Obama heard just as much there as Trump supporters have here. It wasn't just criticism of Obama. His supporters were told they didn't love their country and that we only voted for him because of his color among many other insults. I stuck it out and it passed there as it will here. Have you read what has been said here lately to anyone who dared vote for Trump? That they personally ARE racist, uneducated, xenophobic, misogynistic, bigoted etc. There has been no room for discussion. Just a cold, flat statement that this is the case. It doesn't have anything to do with wanting a "safe" place or having hurt feelings. It has to do with simply realizing that there is no longer any room for discussion or debate. It's "my way or the highway". I did NOT vote for Trump. I just couldn't. But I decided to do some personal digging on all the things he has been called: racist, uneducated, xenophobic, misogynistic, bigoted. I really researched it and guess what--he is NOT any of those things. Those who know him best (including many liberal friends) actually scoff at those appellations. Is he sexist? Yeah, I think he is and I don't admire that. But the rest of the mantra can certainly be debated. But there's no point. No one here (well maybe a few) would be interested in a discussion as to why these adjectives don't really fit him. Because they WANT him to be that way. So really, what's the point in hanging around? To continue to be called names? There are other groups out there where polite and interesting discussion can be had. Margaret isn't the only one who has left. Others just haven't told you so. I know that at least one very much loved conservative Pea is gone forever. She just didn't tell you so. She's not a baby who can't take the heat. She just (like many others) realized that there is no opening for real discussion any more. I did read and reply to that thread. I don't think discussions should be shut down but I think everyone on both sides are entitled to express their true feelings. I would not have volunteered my thoughts on that topic if they had not been asked for. Regardless, I am sorry that you were upset no matter the cause. I have never seen you be anything but kind on this or the old board. As for whether Donald Trump is or is not those things, I don't know think anyone knows for sure what is in someone else's heart. You researched him and say he is not. So did I and I absolutely think he is. Maybe our experiences make us perceive things differently. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2016 23:22:43 GMT
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tincin
Drama Llama
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Post by tincin on Nov 12, 2016 23:28:15 GMT
If you choose to leave, I wish you well however the mud slinging and name calling goes both ways. As for way some were banned and some weren't, it was up to admin, she made the decisions she felt were best. For you to be on here whining about it and pointing fingers at other peas is ridiculous.
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The Great Carpezio
Pearl Clutcher
Something profound goes here.
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Post by The Great Carpezio on Nov 12, 2016 23:29:17 GMT
Holy crap do I wish I use to screen shot.
pre-2002 to 2004 or so---the old 2peas was dominated by a very vocal and and very close conservative group.
Shit, I remember when Lauren "turned" conservative.
I have bitter memories of a few people. People who said some very hurtful things to me. Made me feel like this was a hostile place (particularly about parenting issues). Hell, I have a long memory and remember Snowsilver making me feel crappy about a scrapbooking topic circa 2004 or so on the GS board. (I don't care anymore. But, I do remember and it changed how I interacted on the board).
If I had a dollar for every time we've had this type of conversation, I'd be able to at least buy my Christmas presents.
I don't want to discount people's feelings. So, I get some people feel like it is worse now than in the past. For some, I imagine it is. The crowd has changed. Times have changed. We aren't meaner than we were. If we are, it reflects our world as a whole--not just this board.
But I think It has always existed. It's our perceptions that have changed.
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Post by heather on Nov 12, 2016 23:30:30 GMT
Do what you gotta do.
But I agree...enough with the admin criticism. I'm with her. (Not done with that slogan yet. Lol)
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Post by snowsilver on Nov 12, 2016 23:33:35 GMT
Holy crap do I wish I use to screen shot. pre-2002 to 2004 or so---the old 2peas was dominated by a very vocal and and very close conservative group. Shit, I remember when Lauren "turned" conservative. I have bitter memories of a few people. People who said some very hurtful things to me. Made me feel like this was a hostile place (particularly about parenting issues). Hell, I have a long memory and remember Snowsilver making me feel crappy about a scrapbooking topic circa 2004 or so on the GS board. (I don't care anymore. But, I do remember and it changed how I interacted on the board). If I had a dollar for every time we've had this type of conversation, I'd be able to at least buy my Christmas presents. I don't want to discount people's feelings. So, I get some people feel like it is worse now than in the past. It for some, I imagine it is. The crowd has changed. Times have changed. We aren't meaner than we were. If we are, it reflects our world as a whole--not just this board. But I think It has always existed. It's our perceptions that have changed. HONESTLY, I have no memory of EVER making you feel bad or even any conversation. I wish I could see the actual conversation. But if it was as you say, I sincerely apologize. I always thought you were a GREAT scrapbooker. |
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grinningcat
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Post by grinningcat on Nov 12, 2016 23:37:33 GMT
Holy crap do I wish I use to screen shot. 2002 to 2004 or so---the old 2peas was dominated by a very vocal and and very close conservative group. Shit, I remember when Lauren "turned" conservative. I have bitter memories of a few people. People who said some very hurtful things to me. Made me feel like this was a hostile place (particularly about parenting issues). Hell, I have a long memory and remember Snowsilver making me feel crappy about a scrapbooking topic circa 2004 or so on the GS board. (I don't care anymore. But, I do remember and it changed how I interacted on the board). If I had a dollar for every time we've had this type of conversation, I'd be able to at least buy my Christmas presents. I don't want to discount people's feelings. So, I get some people feel like it is worse now than in the past. It for some, I imagine it is. The crowd has changed. Times have changed. We aren't meaner than we were. If we are, it reflects our world as a whole--not just this board. But I think It has always existed. It's our perceptions that have changed. Like you I remember some very nasty things said to peas from the conservative side back in the day... some said to me and some said to others. And this was when the board was super conversative and "how dare anyone be anything but super conservative and Christian". Hell, I remember being called selfish because I didn't want kids or to even get married. I remember a lot of peas giving a lot of grief to the more liberal minded peas because they weren't religious or weren't pro-life or pro whatever conservative agenda. It was nasty and it was a reason why I left for a while before the other board was shut down for stupid reasons. So the conservative minded peas that are crying persecution now know what many of us dealt with when the board was less inclusive and had a more conservative bent. I'm not saying it makes it right (it doesn't), but it's certainly nothing new. But maybe now there can be an appreciation for what has always happened here... just towards different people. I'm not innocent in all this... there are a lot of peas that have pissed me off in the past and certainly in the past few days and I haven't acted my best. I own that. Others should too. People can leave if they want or stay if they want, but if they are leaving because "the good old days are gone", I have to question the real motive. |
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The Great Carpezio
Pearl Clutcher
Something profound goes here.
Posts: 3,019
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Post by The Great Carpezio on Nov 12, 2016 23:42:12 GMT
Holy crap do I wish I use to screen shot. pre-2002 to 2004 or so---the old 2peas was dominated by a very vocal and and very close conservative group. Shit, I remember when Lauren "turned" conservative. I have bitter memories of a few people. People who said some very hurtful things to me. Made me feel like this was a hostile place (particularly about parenting issues). Hell, I have a long memory and remember Snowsilver making me feel crappy about a scrapbooking topic circa 2004 or so on the GS board. (I don't care anymore. But, I do remember and it changed how I interacted on the board). If I had a dollar for every time we've had this type of conversation, I'd be able to at least buy my Christmas presents. I don't want to discount people's feelings. So, I get some people feel like it is worse now than in the past. It for some, I imagine it is. The crowd has changed. Times have changed. We aren't meaner than we were. If we are, it reflects our world as a whole--not just this board. But I think It has always existed. It's our perceptions that have changed. HONESTLY, I have no memory of EVER making you feel bad or even any conversation. I wish I could see the actual conversation. But if it was as you say, I sincerely apologize. I always thought you were a GREAT scrapbooker. It REALLY does NOT matter anymore. I haven't brought it up for 12 years for a reason lol. I do remember it because it was over publications. The gist was that I was an arrogant snob. I felt hurt. Maybe because there was truth in it. Maybe not. Thanks for the compliment. I only brought it up because we don't always know how our words affect others. I don't think you are a horrible person, but my feelings at the time were hurt, and I saw the GS board differently at that point. We see things differently at different points. We all change and continue to change. I can understand if someone needs to leave this place. That's ok. It's ok to stay too. |
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Post by snowsilver on Nov 12, 2016 23:45:48 GMT
Well again, I absolutely apologize. It makes me feel very bad that a post from me actually changed how you saw the GS board. And I DO think you are a great scrapper--I remember looking at your big win in the Hall of Fame issue and thinking, "I sort of know her!".
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Post by putabuttononit on Nov 12, 2016 23:47:36 GMT
Call this my hairflip if you want to. I haven't been near as active here as I was on the old pea board but the time has come to stop completely. The level of ugliness against anyone who dares to have a conservative thought is all I can take. Anyone who knows me at all knows that I am not (insert any insult here) but I am completely fed up with conservatives being called names because they dare to think differently than the herd here. So have at it. I'm sorry it has gotten to this point but I totally understand. You will be missed. I'm sad that this particular thread is another example of unkind behavior and remarks. Take some time and come back later, maybe. Give it another try. There are good people here but the bullies are more visible. |
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The Great Carpezio
Pearl Clutcher
Something profound goes here.
Posts: 3,019
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Post by The Great Carpezio on Nov 12, 2016 23:51:50 GMT
Thanks for the apology, but it really isn't needed. I'm sure I've hurt others too. I've tried not to, but with the amount of posts I used to have, I'm sure I did.
I just know the board has always had ups and downs. Ugliness and beauty.
It's not just conservative peas who have left. Moderate and liberal peas have too.
If there are any changes with the new board, it's that we don't have much new blood. A little bit it not much. That will affect our behavior as this board continues to age. The honeymoon is over for sure.
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Post by LiLi on Nov 13, 2016 0:07:52 GMT
I am so confused at some people thinking the ugliness is one sided. It is coming from BOTH SIDES! Oh well. See ya! LiLi, would you mind pointing me to some ugliness from the conservative Peas? I haven't seen it, but I'm willing to be proven wrong. Well, I am surprised you can't find it for yourself just by reading ONE of the political threads, it is pretty rampant. I guess I will send you a private message as to not display the ugly on this thread. I am pretty sure I haven't called anyone names, myself. But I have participated in some of the threads and I know I have been snarky, although not nasty imo. As a couple nights ago, I decided to not be a party to any more nastiness. So I would rather not post the links here. |
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Post by AussieMeg on Nov 13, 2016 0:16:18 GMT
But she sure as shit gave as good as she got on the old board when I first started posting there, when conservatives did rule that board. as a liberal, a texan and a former military wife... yea...she gave it a LOT! if you didn't see it, you were in agreement with her and it was no big deal. those of us who were made to feel like we were traitors and unpatriotic and and and... I don’t have any specific instances that immediately come to mind, but I do remember Wildcatmom being quite rude and even nasty at times. I guess, to be honest, it’s kind of like holding a grudge for something that you can’t even really remember – you just remember that the person made you feel bad. There are certain Peas here that I don’t feel much fondness towards, and she was certainly one of them. |
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Post by peatlejuice on Nov 13, 2016 0:23:22 GMT
snowsilver, out of curiosity, how do you know Lauren was banned if you don't know her personally? Was it confirmed elsewhere and I missed it (entirely possible)? Also, not directed to you, but because I'm too lazy to start two replies, lol... FTR, I think that there were multiple people on both sides who deserve(d) to be banned, and that admin has a far greater tolerance for people here than I do, because if I had this many folks whining about how I ran a board (for free, no less), I'd just shut this place down and let y'all figure it out for yourselves.  Good luck and best wishes to those who chose/choose to leave.
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Post by peasapie on Nov 13, 2016 0:25:30 GMT
You know what.....I hate hair flips. It's like I'm taking my toy and going home. I'm a Republican but this board opened my eyes to so many personal opinions and stories that over the years my views on things have changed. I'm sad we have a Trump instead of Hillary. Not as sad as dems are I'm sure but I feel like rights we have fought for are going to be altered in ways that will change us and not in a good way. It's what it is, but that doesn't mean we can't discuss it, argue it and move on. It's been 4 days. I agree with you. The board has opened my eyes as well, and I've also changed my opinions about some things over the years. I left the old board for a good while and then came back toward the end. I think many of us are processing our feelings about what happened by reading and commenting here. I also think many people on both sides of the aisle are worried about what will happen next, for different reasons. SaveSave |
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YooHoot
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by YooHoot on Nov 13, 2016 0:27:47 GMT
But she sure as shit gave as good as she got on the old board when I first started posting there, when conservatives did rule that board. as a liberal, a texan and a former military wife... yea...she gave it a LOT! if you didn't see it, you were in agreement with her and it was no big deal. those of us who were made to feel like we were traitors and unpatriotic and and and... I don’t have any specific instances that immediately come to mind, but I do remember Wildcatmom being quite rude and even nasty at times. I guess, to be honest, it’s kind of like holding a grudge for something that you can’t even really remember – you just remember that the person made you feel bad. There are certain Peas here that I don’t feel much fondness towards, and she was certainly one of them. I remember the same. Nothing directed at me, but I do remember some of the "military" peas were not very nice (Vanessa I recall as well). It wasn't anything specific for me either. But I feel the same "eh" attitude. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2016 0:31:33 GMT
Try being a Muslim on this board. Lol
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2016 0:31:47 GMT
And let us not forget Yubon's latest stunt. You just put a Yubon Coffee into the White House. Good fucking job. Next time you want to hand-slap me for ANYTHING I say, you can just shut your fucking pie hole, you ignorant hypocritical cunts. The peas on her awful thread are laughing, encouraging her, giving her high fives for always telling it like it is. Funny how DOnald Trump "tells it like it is" and those very same peas lose their absolute minds. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2016 0:35:32 GMT
I'm not even sure who said this or even what thread it was on...frankly I've been gone for a few hours and I'm not going to go through all of the posts to read
Regarding personal attacks. Someone said something to make me clarify my statement that people have never been personally attacked to the extent they are now.
In reading several people talk about being called unpatriotic and more, I do recall that. Yes, that was a personal attack. I'm certainly no saint and have crossed the line before.
The personal attacks that are bothering me the most is the broad brush, ALL WHO VOTED FOR HIM ARE ____________________ and that thread where people said that they truly felt like that.
That's what I found so discouraging. Not saying that the individual personal attacks were fine...but that's not really where my mind was when I posted about not being personal attacks.
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Olan
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by Olan on Nov 13, 2016 0:45:36 GMT
And let us not forget Yubon's latest stunt. You just put a Yubon Coffee into the White House. Good fucking job. Next time you want to hand-slap me for ANYTHING I say, you can just shut your fucking pie hole, you ignorant hypocritical cunts. The peas on her awful thread are laughing, encouraging her, giving her high fives for always telling it like it is. Funny how DOnald Trump "tells it like it is" and those very same peas lose their absolute minds. Anyone remaining who voted for Donald Trump yet takes issue with Yubons nasty transfer ethics comment should sit in the corner with me. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2016 0:49:08 GMT
And let us not forget Yubon's latest stunt. You just put a Yubon Coffee into the White House. Good fucking job. Next time you want to hand-slap me for ANYTHING I say, you can just shut your fucking pie hole, you ignorant hypocritical cunts. The peas on her awful thread are laughing, encouraging her, giving her high fives for always telling it like it is. Funny how DOnald Trump "tells it like it is" and those very same peas lose their absolute minds. May I point out the difference. Trump is president elect of the US Yukon is not. What Yubon says here or off this board doesn't really matter in the big scheme of this. But when the president elect of the United States acts in public like a thin skin vengeful school yard bully who lies then it does matter and it matters a lot. |
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