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Post by jmurray on Aug 22, 2014 14:19:57 GMT
I get that Scots living outside Scotland may not be impacted immediately by a Yes vote outcome, as they're not living or paying taxes there (presumably). However that's not to say that a Scottish government may not introduce policies impacting all natural born Scots regardless of where they live at present. Also many people live away from their country of birth for a period of time then return to it later in life. So for those and a bunch of other reasons I'm not seeing the logic in not allowing them to vote? If I were a Scot and not able to vote I'd be pissed. Has that been an issue or are people generally ok with that ruling? They might be Scottish from their heritage/culture but they're actually British, they hold a UK passport and are classed as British Citizens. So if that was the case then all of the UK would be allowed to vote.Where would one draw the line?........ you (general you ) are Scottish,your mother/father are or was Scottish, your Grandparents.....where would it end. I know many many Scots (my entire mother's side of the family was born there - most no longer live there), so I had a bit of a laugh at this. No offense, but I have never heard a Scot call themself a British citizen  But yes, I can see your point of view. I guess I'm coming from the angle that if the outcome is a Yes, then they won't be a British citizen anymore will they? They'll be a Scottish citizen by birth. So maybe the line is drawn there - born in Scotland? Or maybe their citizenship status wouldn't change? I'm not sure of all the potential consequences. I'm just wondering how it may impact natural born Scots in the future, who don't live there at the moment. |
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Post by anxiousmom on Aug 22, 2014 14:30:56 GMT
So, if you are a native born Scot, but live somewhere else, why is it that they are not allowed to vote? I ask because my experience (which is from the view point of an American) is that if you are a US citizen, no matter where you live in the world you are allowed a vote in any election. Lets take something similar to compare.....you are all Americans citizens but if, as a state, North Dakota decided they wanted to be independent would you think it right if the people that were born in North Dakota but have lived in Texas for about 20 years would be able to vote yes or no to the future of North Dakota? Okay...so not trying to be argumentative, so please know that is not my intention at all, I am just trying to get it straight to understand better... But theoretically, yes. Here we usually are registered to vote in the community we are registered in. And I agree, each state has the right to vote for issues within their own state. I wouldn't vote for Texas succession, I am not a citizen of that state. But an issue of national interest, I would be able to vote regardless of my community or state affiliation as long as I was a citizen in good standing of this country. I though, and please correct me if I am wrong, Scotland would be considered it's own country, and therefore you would be a citizen of that country regardless of where you live and should/would have a vested interest in the outcome of the vote and have that right to vote accordingly. For example, if I were a citizen and lived Japan teaching English language skills, I would still have a right to vote in community, state and national elections because as a citizen of the US, Florida and my county, I have a vested interest in the outcome of the elections. Just because I live else where, I haven't given up my rights as a US citizen. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2014 14:33:16 GMT
They might be Scottish from their heritage/culture but they're actually British, they hold a UK passport and are classed as British Citizens. So if that was the case then all of the UK would be allowed to vote.Where would one draw the line?........ you (general you ) are Scottish,your mother/father are or was Scottish, your Grandparents.....where would it end. I know many many Scots (my entire mother's side of the family was born there - most no longer live there), so I had a bit of a laugh at this. No offense, but I have never heard a Scot call themself a British citizen But yes, I can see your point of view. I guess I'm coming from the angle that if the outcome is a Yes, then they won't be a British citizen anymore will they? They'll be a Scottish citizen by birth. So maybe the line is drawn there - born in Scotland? No offence at all.....I haven't heard anyone do so either  bit like the Welsh I think they's be horrified if anyone told them they played Ruby for Britain  I'm not sure what would happen. I haven't heard anyone discuss this. But that and many many other things would change, no doubt. There's so much at stake here,it's not a question of a straight forward " going it alone". Without being insulting to the 16/17 year old that are going to be voting, I do wonder if they really know enough of the underlying for and against and what it would mean to their future. Its a little more involved than voting for the next member of parliament....you can get rid of them within 5 years but there would be no going back on this. |
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Post by anxiousmom on Aug 22, 2014 14:36:09 GMT
By the way, I am also glad that this thread was started. It appears to me that I have a whole lot to learn about politics in other parts of the world. Anytime I can learn something new that helps me be more aware of the world, that is a good day for me.  |
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Post by gillyp on Aug 22, 2014 14:36:34 GMT
I am English. I have lived in Scotland for over 20 years. My nationality is British. I am entitled to vote in the referendum and I shall be doing so.
I personally think Alex Salmond is doing this not for the good of the country but to ensure his own place in history.
I can't imagine anything worse for Scotland after 3/4 years of recession to up sticks and leave the United Kingdom. I will be voting No to independence on September 18th.
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BarbaraUK
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Post by BarbaraUK on Aug 22, 2014 14:38:56 GMT
I did like the statement that if it does not go through that Scotland's parliament should get more power over it's self. That was how it worked for Canada and eventually we brought our constitution home. It's a complicated subject so just to try!  make things perhaps more clear to anyone outside the UK on this question, the Scottish Parliament already has devolution and has power over a large number of home affairs that the UK Parliament does not have input into. The list below gives details. If the vote is 'yes' to an independent Scotland then the Reserve list is what they would have to provide for themselves along with financing for all things. At the moment the cost of benefits, defence, nuclear power etc., come out of the shared proceeds from tax of all the countries comprising the UK....England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales. The population of Scotland is just under 5.5 million. Scotland has 59 MPs sitting at Westminster in addition to their own Members of the Scottish Parliament. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2014 14:48:52 GMT
Lets take something similar to compare.....you are all Americans citizens but if, as a state, North Dakota decided they wanted to be independent would you think it right if the people that were born in North Dakota but have lived in Texas for about 20 years would be able to vote yes or no to the future of North Dakota? Okay...so not trying to be argumentative, so please know that is not my intention at all, I am just trying to get it straight to understand better... But theoretically, yes. Here we usually are registered to vote in the community we are registered in. And I agree, each state has the right to vote for issues within their own state. I wouldn't vote for Texas succession, I am not a citizen of that state. But an issue of national interest, I would be able to vote regardless of my community or state affiliation as long as I was a citizen in good standing of this country. I though, and please correct me if I am wrong, Scotland would be considered it's own country, and therefore you would be a citizen of that country regardless of where you live and should/would have a vested interest in the outcome of the vote and have that right to vote accordingly. For example, if I were a citizen and lived Japan teaching English language skills, I would still have a right to vote in community, state and national elections because as a citizen of the US, Florida and my county, I have a vested interest in the outcome of the elections. Just because I live else where, I haven't given up my rights as a US citizen. No problem To answer your last paragraph. I don't know if I'm right but this is what would happen: If Scotland votes yes to Independence, they would become a country in their own right........totally separated from any laws or government legislation made by the British Parliament in Westminster. They would be totally Independent in every shape and form except by land. As to what would constitute being a citizen of a new Independent Scotland I have no idea to be honest. I haven't heard anyone discuss it so I'm not sure what criteria that existing born Scots living outside of Scotland would be classed as by the new parliament. That would be up to the new Scottish Government if there was a yes vote. |
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Post by pierogi on Aug 22, 2014 15:01:07 GMT
If Scotland votes Yes, would they keep the Pound? Move to the Euro? Start their own currency?
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BarbaraUK
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Post by BarbaraUK on Aug 22, 2014 15:06:18 GMT
If Scotland votes Yes, would they keep the Pound? Move to the Euro? Start their own currency? It appears that Scotland will not be able to keep the pound sterling if there is a 'yes' vote. I haven't heard what alternative they are proposing though. |
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wellway
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Post by wellway on Aug 22, 2014 15:07:10 GMT
If Scotland votes Yes, would they keep the Pound? Move to the Euro? Start their own currency? Pierogi - you have hit on one of the issues with Mr Salmond's aspirations. The three main UK parties have said no way will Scotland keep the pound. He thinks it will happened somehow. |
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Post by anxiousmom on Aug 22, 2014 15:08:16 GMT
Okay...so not trying to be argumentative, so please know that is not my intention at all, I am just trying to get it straight to understand better... But theoretically, yes. Here we usually are registered to vote in the community we are registered in. And I agree, each state has the right to vote for issues within their own state. I wouldn't vote for Texas succession, I am not a citizen of that state. But an issue of national interest, I would be able to vote regardless of my community or state affiliation as long as I was a citizen in good standing of this country. I though, and please correct me if I am wrong, Scotland would be considered it's own country, and therefore you would be a citizen of that country regardless of where you live and should/would have a vested interest in the outcome of the vote and have that right to vote accordingly. For example, if I were a citizen and lived Japan teaching English language skills, I would still have a right to vote in community, state and national elections because as a citizen of the US, Florida and my county, I have a vested interest in the outcome of the elections. Just because I live else where, I haven't given up my rights as a US citizen. No problem To answer your last paragraph. I don't know if I'm right but this is what would happen: If Scotland votes yes to Independence, they would become a country in their own right........totally separated from any laws or government legislation made by the British Parliament in Westminster. They would be totally Independent in every shape and form except by land. As to what would constitute being a citizen of a new Independent Scotland I have no idea to be honest. I haven't heard anyone discuss it so I'm not sure what criteria that existing born Scots living outside of Scotland would be classed as by the new parliament. That would be up to the new Scottish Government if there was a yes vote. And for now, people in Scotland are not considered citizens of Scotland, but citizens of the UK? (or British?) |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2014 15:12:52 GMT
Yes, they're British Citizens with British Passports and have been since about 1710 or thereabouts |
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Post by gillyp on Aug 22, 2014 15:12:56 GMT
If Scotland votes Yes, would they keep the Pound? Move to the Euro? Start their own currency? Pierogi - you have hit on one of the issues with Mr Salmond's aspirations. The three main UK parties have said no way will Scotland keep the pound. He thinks it will happened somehow. Exactly. Alex Salmond is determined to keep the Pound and the UK parties are equally determined it will not happen. Just as a by the by, Scottish banks currently print their own banknotes under agreement with the Bank of England. Even THOSE notes are not strictly legal tender anywhere including Scotland. You will find a lot of smaller shops in England refusing to change Scottish money even though they have Pound Sterling on them. |
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Post by anxiousmom on Aug 22, 2014 15:21:17 GMT
Yes, they're British Citizens with British Passports and have been since about 1710 or thereabouts Want to hear something funny? I have a history degree, and had to take the random history class outside of my focus, but European history wasn't one that I remember taking. I mostly did Chinese/Russian classes. So beyond my reading of the Outlander books, and a slight infatuation with Tudor England, Scottish and English history is not something I am very familiar with. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2014 15:29:12 GMT
If Scotland votes Yes, would they keep the Pound? Move to the Euro? Start their own currency? To add to the other answers about the pound. It's not just a matter of keeping the same money it the economic/global reason that they can't keep the pound. Alex Salmond thinks he can keep the pound well,yes he could name the Scottish currency the pound but Internationally it would have no value. It would leave the financial institutions of Scotland without an effective lender as a last resort. The Bank of England ( The Federal Reserve in the US) wouldn't be a back up or a security to them. It would make it very difficult to trade on the world market without that backing. He's also threatened to walk away from Scotland share of the national debt if he doesn't get his way on a currency union. If he does that then there will be repercussions in Europe, who will be reluctant for Scotland to become a member of the European Union....which would lead to a direct impact on exports and the free trade agreements. So so much more to this than " going it alone" |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2014 15:33:18 GMT
Yes, they're British Citizens with British Passports and have been since about 1710 or thereabouts Want to hear something funny? I have a history degree, and had to take the random history class outside of my focus, but European history wasn't one that I remember taking. I mostly did Chinese/Russian classes. So beyond my reading of the Outlander books, and a slight infatuation with Tudor England, Scottish and English history is not something I am very familiar with. I can understand that though. We're that much further away and have no impact as such for the need to know. Ask away though, we won't laugh,honest  . I enjoy learning about other countries too. |
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BarbaraUK
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Post by BarbaraUK on Aug 22, 2014 15:56:55 GMT
Yes, they're British Citizens with British Passports and have been since about 1710 or thereabouts Want to hear something funny? I have a history degree, and had to take the random history class outside of my focus, but European history wasn't one that I remember taking. I mostly did Chinese/Russian classes. So beyond my reading of the Outlander books, and a slight infatuation with Tudor England, Scottish and English history is not something I am very familiar with. To become really familiar with English/Scottish history you would have to read up on centuries of a massive amount of stuff! Going back to 1603 for the 'Union of the Crowns' and 'Act of Union' in 1707 for recent history, and way, way beyond that!! And it's all complicated!!  The UK as a whole is a very complicated Union anyway with a very complicated, long history! Years and years ago Scotland and Wales, in particular, took exception to the word 'England' being used for British so we English were persuaded it was more PC to say 'UK'. Then they insisted they were 'Scottish' and 'Welsh' and that left us English floundering a bit! So in recent years there has been a definite increase of saying one lives in England by the English!!  I'm not sure there has ever been a really quiet time in UK history! If you put European history into the mix then you would be reading for years!! |
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Post by bc2ca on Aug 22, 2014 16:37:09 GMT
Most of my mom's family is in Scotland and my dad's is in England, so my DS is fascinated by the referndum and watching closely.
One of my favorite photos was taken about 15 years ago at a cousin's wedding with all my uncles in full kilts. Mom had a big laugh, because there is no way any of them would have worn kilts as young men or to their own weddings. Mom was also amazed at the revival of Gaelic. She spoke it growing up in a small village, but it was not taught in schools.
I'm not sure where I stand on this referendum, but it really reminds me of the 1995 Quebec Referendum which was as close to a split vote as you can get. There was controversy over who was eligible to vote on that referendum, but IIRC, it was limited to current residents only.
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Post by bc2ca on Aug 22, 2014 16:46:51 GMT
I'm pretty sure this applies to my mom's family too, although my dad and his family always identify as British. This is one of the things my DS gets confused by "because aren't they all British?" |
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bellemac
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Post by bellemac on Aug 22, 2014 17:06:39 GMT
I believe Mark Carney,Governor of the Bank Of England has said we would be able to keep the pound.
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Post by pmk on Aug 22, 2014 17:26:18 GMT
Maybe I'm in a minority in Scotland but I still consider myself a UK citizen, not a Scottish citizen. I would, however, describe myself as Scottish to anyone who asked!
As for how I'm voting, I have no idea. I'm completely on the fence and remain to be convinced. I think the quality of debate and of unbiased information has been appalling - each side has said one thing, the opposite side has said the opposite. It's almost laughable! I'm uneasy about the whole thing because many people (particularly 16 and 17 year olds) seem to be making snap decisions based on a sense of Scottish pride and nationalism and I would far rather it be a balanced, educated one.
Apparently on the currency issue, the Bank of England has a contingency plan no matter what the decision is.
Interesting times!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2014 18:52:32 GMT
I believe Mark Carney,Governor of the Bank Of England has said we would be able to keep the pound. Well it isn't up to Mark Carney to decide. That was what was reported he said last week. link |
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Post by AussieMeg on Aug 23, 2014 1:03:53 GMT
As for how I'm voting, I have no idea. I'm completely on the fence and remain to be convinced. I think the quality of debate and of unbiased information has been appalling - each side has said one thing, the opposite side has said the opposite. It's almost laughable! I'm uneasy about the whole thing because many people (particularly 16 and 17 year olds) seem to be making snap decisions based on a sense of Scottish pride and nationalism and I would far rather it be a balanced, educated one.
And that is what worries me about this whole thing. The majority of the younger generation seem to have swung towards a yes vote, but could well be making their decision based on an attitude of "F*ck you England!" Like I-95 mentioned, what about the currency, getting your own military, health care system... As she said, I fear Scotland could be in a world of hurt if it goes through.
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AmeliaBloomer
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Aug 23, 2014 1:16:52 GMT
Who decided to let the 16 and 17-year-olds vote? As mentioned, I would imagine this would be a boon for the supporters of independence. Such a romantic cause and all… Hell, when I was 17, I would have voted for my friends and me to become our own country. After all, nobody else understood us. I'm not being flip. I'm honestly curious how this decision evolved and how each side is courting the teenage vote. But you can wait to wake up to answer me. |
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uksue
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Post by uksue on Aug 23, 2014 1:21:44 GMT
I have family living in Scotland who are resounding 'nos' and I also have a lifelong friend who lives in St Andrews who is also a staunch 'no'. I think the problem of retaining sterling as a currency will be a large factor with many people voting. Personally, I think Scotland would be foolish to vote yes and carry it through.
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Post by Linda on Aug 23, 2014 3:25:56 GMT
Since I'm English-born and living in the States - I don't get a say.
My heart says yes though - my Dad's family is Scottish and his cousin was one of the founders of the Scottish Nationalist Party back in the 1930s and the family has continued to be active in the Nationalist movement through the years.
MY FB feed is resoundingly 'Yes' - I don't think I've seen much of anything from the 'Better together' proponents.
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Post by gillyp on Aug 23, 2014 8:44:31 GMT
I get No info in my feed daily but I have liked various Better Together pages. To pick up on what AussieMeg said, there will absolutely be a large number who will vote Yes purely to stick two fingers up at England. In sports tournaments where Scotland has been knocked out and you ask folk who they will be supporting the response is often "anyone except England". When we first moved here it was made clear to us that we Incomers were not welcome and there is still a lot of anti-English feeling here. Without a doubt they will be voting yes without even considering the arguments. |
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BarbaraUK
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Post by BarbaraUK on Aug 23, 2014 9:25:04 GMT
Who decided to let the 16 and 17-year-olds vote? As mentioned, I would imagine this would be a boon for the supporters of independence. Such a romantic cause and all… Hell, when I was 17, I would have voted for my friends and me to become our own country. After all, nobody else understood us. I'm not being flip. I'm honestly curious how this decision evolved and how each side is courting the teenage vote. But you can wait to wake up to answer me. LOL!! The decision about who could vote was made by the Scottish Government - First Minister Alex Salmond and his party - when they worked out the details of their referendum. Not sure about how this decision evolved though. |
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lesley
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Post by lesley on Aug 23, 2014 9:36:26 GMT
Who decided to let the 16 and 17-year-olds vote? As mentioned, I would imagine this would be a boon for the supporters of independence. Such a romantic cause and all… Yes, there are many younger people who have seen 'Braveheart', don't know it's basically a work of fiction, and will vote yes on that basis. Thankfully, some of them are a bit more savvy! My DS is 16 and he, and many of his friends, do not want complete independence. |
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BarbaraUK
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Post by BarbaraUK on Aug 23, 2014 9:58:19 GMT
I get No info in my feed daily but I have liked various Better Together pages. To pick up on what AussieMeg said, there will absolutely be a large number who will vote Yes purely to stick two fingers up at England. In sports tournaments where Scotland has been knocked out and you ask folk who they will be supporting the response is often "anyone except England". When we first moved here it was made clear to us that we Incomers were not welcome and there is still a lot of anti-English feeling here. Without a doubt they will be voting yes without even considering the arguments. Yes, it's quite a shock when that is first experienced.  We have spent a lot of time in Scotland over the years - the reason for being there provided much needed employment in that area of Scotland - and it was so sad to see the anti-English feelings. I didn't expect that at all at first......we don't have the same reaction to Scots people living in England so it came as a surprise. |
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bit like the Welsh I think they's be horrified if anyone told them they played Ruby for Britain 
make things perhaps more clear to anyone outside the UK on this question, the Scottish Parliament already has devolution and has power over a large number of home affairs that the UK Parliament does not have input into. The list below gives details. 
. I enjoy learning about other countries too.
I'm not sure there has ever been a really quiet time in UK history! 
We have spent a lot of time in Scotland over the years - the reason for being there provided much needed employment in that area of Scotland - and it was so sad to see the anti-English feelings. I didn't expect that at all at first......we don't have the same reaction to Scots people living in England so it came as a surprise.