cycworker
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Jun 26, 2014 0:42:38 GMT
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Post by cycworker on May 5, 2017 21:11:19 GMT
I am old enough to remember when many States lowered the drinking age to 18 during the Vietnam war. It had to be raised again because 18 year olds were not mature enough to handle the responsibility that comes with drinking. I could not disagree with you more about allowing your kids to drink before legal age. There is no way I would allow any child of mine to do something illegal. Not gonna happen. I respect your opinion but we will have to disagree. In my case, vehemently! Legally here, I can give my underage child alcohol to be consumed in my house. I cannot give them alcohol at my parents' house, and my parents cannot give them alcohol at my house. Me, my house, my children? Perfectly legal. Interesting. I think in BC parents can give them alcohol at their grandparents' house. And your grandparents can give them alcohol if they have consent from you (I think it has to be written). I say this because of prom after parties. There was a lawyer who helped make sure it was set up legally.
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cherivall
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Post by cherivall on May 5, 2017 21:14:45 GMT
I am going to have to disagree with you on this one . TRUE not all the kids who really need it get it BUT I have been part of a similar program for 10 years since Kaitlyn died and the majority of the kids who "need" it GET it .. and the ones that don't NEED it get it .. I still run in to some of these "kids" .. they remember me and more importantly they remember the program
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cycworker
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Post by cycworker on May 5, 2017 21:23:43 GMT
I am going to have to disagree with you on this one . TRUE not all the kids who really need it get it BUT I have been part of a similar program for 10 years since Kaitlyn died and the majority of the kids who "need" it GET it .. and the ones that don't NEED it get it .. I still run in to some of these "kids" .. they remember me and more importantly they remember the program That's fair. The thing is, it's a correlation, not a causal relationship. And we have no way of knowing who those kids who 'need' it got it, and if they would/could get it anyway through a different method. We also have no way of knowing how long it sticks for those kids who are the most at risk or in risk. Given that, is it worth it to risk traumatizing the kids who don't need it? I have always admired your willingness to share your experiences about Kaitlyn & her death. To me, though, what you've described out it is not really the same as these programs.
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quiltz
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Post by quiltz on May 5, 2017 21:42:52 GMT
I am going to have to disagree with you on this one . TRUE not all the kids who really need it get it BUT I have been part of a similar program for 10 years since Kaitlyn died and the majority of the kids who "need" it GET it .. and the ones that don't NEED it get it .. I still run in to some of these "kids" .. they remember me and more importantly they remember the program Thank you for continuing on this educational pathway. It is truly difficult to explain to people who have not experienced what we moms of children who left earth far to young can understand. (((hugs))). I as well, do run into some of these "kids" who remember my dd and as remember the impact that her death has had on them. Keep strong. (((hugs)))
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cherivall
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Post by cherivall on May 5, 2017 22:32:31 GMT
I am going to have to disagree with you on this one . TRUE not all the kids who really need it get it BUT I have been part of a similar program for 10 years since Kaitlyn died and the majority of the kids who "need" it GET it .. and the ones that don't NEED it get it .. I still run in to some of these "kids" .. they remember me and more importantly they remember the program That's fair. The thing is, it's a correlation, not a causal relationship. And we have no way of knowing who those kids who 'need' it got it, and if they would/could get it anyway through a different method. We also have no way of knowing how long it sticks for those kids who are the most at risk or in risk. Given that, is it worth it to risk traumatizing the kids who don't need it? I have always admired your willingness to share your experiences about Kaitlyn & her death. To me, though, what you've described out it is not really the same as these programs. I work with multiple groups .. Shattered Lives does the wreck reinactment .. including taking kids to jail, the hospital and the funeral home .. this is what I was talking about .. i am one of three speakers when they take the kids to a retreat .. it is very emotional and intense .. and makes a very lasting impression ..
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Post by mirabelleswalker on May 5, 2017 22:39:58 GMT
That's fair. The thing is, it's a correlation, not a causal relationship. And we have no way of knowing who those kids who 'need' it got it, and if they would/could get it anyway through a different method. We also have no way of knowing how long it sticks for those kids who are the most at risk or in risk. Given that, is it worth it to risk traumatizing the kids who don't need it? I have always admired your willingness to share your experiences about Kaitlyn & her death. To me, though, what you've described out it is not really the same as these programs. I work with multiple groups .. Shattered Lives does the wreck reinactment .. including taking kids to jail, the hospital and the funeral home .. this is what I was talking about .. i am one of three speakers when they take the kids to a retreat .. it is very emotional and intense .. and makes a very lasting impression .. Nice to "see" you! My niece's school does "Every 15 Minutes" every four years so that all of the students experience it. She did it in her freshman year. It made a very deep impression on her.
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quiltz
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Post by quiltz on May 5, 2017 23:11:29 GMT
I work with multiple groups .. Shattered Lives does the wreck reinactment .. including taking kids to jail, the hospital and the funeral home .. this is what I was talking about .. i am one of three speakers when they take the kids to a retreat .. it is very emotional and intense .. and makes a very lasting impression .. Thank you again for your continued contribution. My concern for you is a PTSD episode. Both of us loved our dd's very much. How is your son doing? I had heard that he was recently married. Although we have rarely connected on-line, please know that my thoughts and prayers are with you & your family over the many years. (((hugs)))
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cherivall
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Post by cherivall on May 5, 2017 23:35:29 GMT
I work with multiple groups .. Shattered Lives does the wreck reinactment .. including taking kids to jail, the hospital and the funeral home .. this is what I was talking about .. i am one of three speakers when they take the kids to a retreat .. it is very emotional and intense .. and makes a very lasting impression .. Thank you again for your continued contribution. My concern for you is a PTSD episode. Both of us loved our dd's very much. How is your son doing? I had heard that he was recently married. Although we have rarely connected on-line, please know that my thoughts and prayers are with you & your family over the many years. (((hugs))) He is doing reallyngood .. he has been married 4 years now and stills lives to WA state ..
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Post by PEAcan pie on May 6, 2017 3:41:21 GMT
fine with me... this is real life.
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Post by scrapmaven on May 6, 2017 3:54:10 GMT
Our high schools do Every 15 minutes a few days before their prom and I'm a firm supporter. It can never happen to me, but it does happen and when they see it maybe one or two people will reconsider their actions and save lives.
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flute4peace
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Post by flute4peace on May 6, 2017 5:19:26 GMT
While I think that parents should have been aware in advance what the program contained, if it saves even one life then I think it's worth it. My parents' small community is currently reeling from the death of three 17 year olds who were drinking and driving. If this kind of program would have made them or their friends think twice then I'm all for it. Parents are never aware In advance when their own children end up in tthis situation. Young drivers are never aware in advance when their own actions result in the deaths of their best friends. This isn't real and the kids know it isn't real, but it is very realistic. Maybe one will think first before driving and drinking. We did this for juniors and seniors every other year. Hopefully, it helped. I understand this and agree with it in theory. BUT. Let's say a kid is allergic to milk. His parents would do what needed to be done to have him not served milk, right? Say the lunch lady declares that milk is healthy and everyone has to drink it because it's good for you, builds strong bones etc. Kid ends up sick for several days. Can you imagine the thread here slamming the lunch lady? That's what this situation is for some of us. We're not saying we're against the program, just that it would have been nice to have a heads up for parents of the kids who are "allergic to milk".
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AmeliaBloomer
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on May 6, 2017 12:24:56 GMT
Took me a while to get back in here, but I googled Canada, as promised (posted about Europe and Britain yesterday). Binge drinking on rise in Canada (news report summarizing university study)-------------------------------------------------- jennyap: Oddly, I've had the same experience as you - that younger (for me, MUCH younger) colleagues at work seem to display much more restrained alcohol behavior than preceding generations...including mine. But then I see the statistics about what high school and college kids are doing and it doesn't jive. And I can't judge by my own early-twenties kids 'cause they drink little and infrequently - possibly because I started talking to them about it when they were young. (One can only hope.)
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cakediva
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Post by cakediva on May 6, 2017 12:38:51 GMT
A bunch of things need to happen: -We need to lower the drinking age. It's 19 in BC and even that's a bit high... 21 is ridiculous. -Stop demonizing drinking and making alcohol taboo for your kids. At least here in BC, even before it's formally 'legal' parents have some leeway to allow their kids to drink in supervised, controlled situations. Allow that. Don't put kids in a situation where they're heading out to a schoolground, like the Portland example, or worse, somewhere dangerous like the woods. Teach them early how to have a healthy, responsible relationship with alcohol. -Parents need to change their attitudes to underage drinking. Kids shouldn't HAVE to sneak out. Make it safe for your kid to call you if they need you to come & get them. THOSE are the types of things that will address the problem, not these ineffective, moralistic, Scared Straight type programs, which are the alcohol & drug equivalent of abstinence only sex education. Harm reduction keeps kids safe. This other stuff doesn't work. IMO there is a world of difference between making it safe for my kids to call me and encouraging an illegal behavior. I have been witness to several alcohol education programs and all of them would disagree strongly with you. Kids will be kids and break the rules, but it is more dangerous to teach a teen that you can pick and choose which laws to obey. I'm in Ontario, drinking age is 19. Technically (and this is directly from an officer of the law) it is NOT illegal for an underage person to drink the alcohol. It is illegal to sell it to them, it is illegal for them to buy it. It is not, however, illegal for them to consume it. Same with the smoking laws here. It is illegal to sell it to them, but police cannot arrest a kid standing on the street corner smoking. It simply isn't an illegal act. That said, in my home, I'm totally fine with giving my underage kids a drink. DS has hit 16 and is in party going mode with his buddies. We have talked to him over and over - one screw up and your dreams of a basketball scholarship are over. He knows this. He acts a bit more responsibly than a few of his other buddies. Our girls have become very responsible drinkers - they are now 19 & 21. Sure ,they get blitzed now and then (ok the 19 year old is our party girl and lives away for school) but they also know their limits and part of that was allowing them a drink or two at family functions to know what they could and could not handle. I wasn't meaning to point fingers at you specifically - just wanted to comment on the illegal part of it!
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Post by anxiousmom on May 6, 2017 13:24:09 GMT
As I read the whole thread, I had an opinion that became more and more flexible the more I read.
My of two teen age boys who have an alcoholic as a father, a very long family history of addictive behaviors on both sides of the family...and I would have wanted them to see this. I have always talked to them about this predisposition toward addiction and worry like crazy that they won't really be able to fight that particular demon.
I am a product of the early 80's drivers ed programs and saw the videos. They were pretty horrific, but I am not sure they really had the intended effect-I was an early drinker (and if I am being honest, tried more than my fair share of drugs) and I am ashamed to say that we (I) did drive when I shouldn't have. There is a reason I rarely drink now, I am not really all that good at stopping and I know for an absolute fact that I don't make good decisions when drinking. I guess in the long run, if programs like this actually stop some of the same kind of destructive behavior that I had, it is worth it. I wish that it had of stopped me, I am absolutely beyond shamed when I think back to high school and college and some of the things I did.
But after reading the thread, I do think that the parents should have been given a heads up and the option to opt out. I would guess that there are parents who opt out because of the special snowflake my kids would never do that anyway reasons, but there are some legitimate reasons that some kids probably shouldn't participate.
AND...to those who have lost loved ones...I would like to humbly apologize for my poor decisions that potentially put me in a place where that could have been me that caused your loss. I hope that my actions since make up for it, and by the Grace of God I didn't cause any kind of harm, but I could have and want you all to know how deeply sorry I am for my participation in such behaviors.
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Post by ScrapsontheRocks on May 6, 2017 13:50:12 GMT
As I read the whole thread, I had an opinion that became more and more flexible the more I read. My of two teen age boys who have an alcoholic as a father, a very long family history of addictive behaviors on both sides of the family...and I would have wanted them to see this. I have always talked to them about this predisposition toward addiction and worry like crazy that they won't really be able to fight that particular demon. I am a product of the early 80's drivers ed programs and saw the videos. They were pretty horrific, but I am not sure they really had the intended effect-I was an early drinker (and if I am being honest, tried more than my fair share of drugs) and I am ashamed to say that we (I) did drive when I shouldn't have. There is a reason I rarely drink now, I am not really all that good at stopping and I know for an absolute fact that I don't make good decisions when drinking. I guess in the long run, if programs like this actually stop some of the same kind of destructive behavior that I had, it is worth it. I wish that it had of stopped me, I am absolutely beyond shamed when I think back to high school and college and some of the things I did. But after reading the thread, I do think that the parents should have been given a heads up and the option to opt out. I would guess that there are parents who opt out because of the special snowflake my kids would never do that anyway reasons, but there are some legitimate reasons that some kids probably shouldn't participate. AND...to those who have lost loved ones...I would like to humbly apologize for my poor decisions that potentially put me in a place where that could have been me that caused your loss. I hope that my actions since make up for it, and by the Grace of God I didn't cause any kind of harm, but I could have and want you all to know how deeply sorry I am for my participation in such behaviors. Well written and very classy. Peace.
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Post by leftturnonly on May 8, 2017 5:45:09 GMT
Yesterday in our small town a 16 year old was killed in a drunk driving accident and a 23 year old was declared brain dead from a cocaine overdose. Both were former students of mine. Both were happy, devil may care kids who looked no further into their future than to where the next exhilarating thrill was coming from. Both are dead and their families and friends are devastated. If an in your face, graphic assembly could have prevented either of these from happening I would donate to pay for the program. It must be devastating to lose two (ex) students in the same day like that. {{{hugs}}} States where you're allowed to drink alcohol on an alcohol selling property with parental consent (ie parent can order you wine at a restaurant): Connecticut, Louisiana, Mississippi, Nevada, Ohio, Texas, Wisconsin, Wyoming I did not know that. I do know that a wife younger than the legal drinking age in Texas may drink in a restaurant with her of legal age husband, though. We had a similar program when I was in high school in the early 1990s. The controversy then was the school wanted to have the "victims" and drivers notified on a weekend, newspaper article written making it sound real etc so kids coming to school on Monday would think it was totally real that students had been killed, arrested etc. Several teachers who were parents of current high schoolers ended up protesting, thinking the implications and backlash would undermine the message. What a terrible idea! anxiousmom - you are one heck of a nice person.
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scrapaddie
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Post by scrapaddie on May 8, 2017 22:49:35 GMT
Parents are never aware In advance when their own children end up in tthis situation. Young drivers are never aware in advance when their own actions result in the deaths of their best friends. This isn't real and the kids know it isn't real, but it is very realistic. Maybe one will think first before driving and drinking. We did this for juniors and seniors every other year. Hopefully, it helped. I understand this and agree with it in theory. BUT. Let's say a kid is allergic to milk. His parents would do what needed to be done to have him not served milk, right? Say the lunch lady declares that milk is healthy and everyone has to drink it because it's good for you, builds strong bones etc. Kid ends up sick for several days. Can you imagine the thread here slamming the lunch lady? That's what this situation is for some of us. We're not saying we're against the program, just that it would have been nice to have a heads up for parents of the kids who are "allergic to milk". At some point parents have to stop helicoptering. These are juniors and seniors who are driving and could run into a similar situation anytime they are in a car. If a teen is upset, then it is a good time to talk about how real these possibilities are, not to get upset with the school. Jmho
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Post by 950nancy on May 8, 2017 22:52:55 GMT
I understand this and agree with it in theory. BUT. Let's say a kid is allergic to milk. His parents would do what needed to be done to have him not served milk, right? Say the lunch lady declares that milk is healthy and everyone has to drink it because it's good for you, builds strong bones etc. Kid ends up sick for several days. Can you imagine the thread here slamming the lunch lady? That's what this situation is for some of us. We're not saying we're against the program, just that it would have been nice to have a heads up for parents of the kids who are "allergic to milk". At some point parents have to stop helicoptering. These are juniors and seniors who are driving and could run into a similar situation anytime they are in a car. If a teen is upset, then it is a good time to talk about how real these possibilities are, not to get upset with the school. Jmho I have to say that I knew my classroom kids well enough that if I had a kid who would have had any triggers with the presentation, I would have offered a distant seat, a trip to the counselor, or just a pass to stand in the hallway if needed. I also know that my students would have told me it was too much. Kids can advocate for themselves pretty well when under stress.
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scrapaddie
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Post by scrapaddie on May 8, 2017 23:02:00 GMT
At some point parents have to stop helicoptering. These are juniors and seniors who are driving and could run into a similar situation anytime they are in a car. If a teen is upset, then it is a good time to talk about how real these possibilities are, not to get upset with the school. Jmho I have to say that I knew my classroom kids well enough that if I had a kid who would have had any triggers with the presentation, I would have offered a distant seat, a trip to the counselor, or just a pass to stand in the hallway if needed. I also know that my students would have told me it was too much. Kids can advocate for themselves pretty well when under stress. You are correct... we always talked to kids that we knew had lost family in accidents.... there was discussion ahead of time in English classes.... it was a little more real for me because I have lost two brothers in accidents, but I attended so that I would be in a position to talk with my students
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Post by candleangie on May 9, 2017 1:50:28 GMT
candleangie if you had advance notice of the recreation, would you have opted out? No, I would not. My kids were fine. Their friend was NOT fine. Even kind of.
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flute4peace
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Post by flute4peace on May 9, 2017 2:12:12 GMT
candleangie if you had advance notice of the recreation, would you have opted out? No, I would not. My kids were fine. Their friend was NOT fine. Even kind of. I'm sorry to hear this.
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quiltz
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Post by quiltz on May 9, 2017 2:14:30 GMT
candleangie if you had advance notice of the recreation, would you have opted out? No, I would not. My kids were fine. Their friend was NOT fine. Even kind of. I am sorry that their friend wasn't fine. I will say that life doesn't give you advance notice of a life-changing event. If you read my posts on this thread, you will learn what I mean.
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Post by candleangie on May 9, 2017 3:20:41 GMT
And so....we should give them a taste of every experience that could happen without warning?
Fires are preventable. I'm not going to include smoke and "burning bodies" in my fire drill just to REALLY drive the point home.
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Post by 950nancy on May 9, 2017 3:36:11 GMT
And so....we should give them a taste of every experience that could happen without warning? Fires are preventable. I'm not going to include smoke and "burning bodies" in my fire drill just to REALLY drive the point home. I can't drive anywhere without seeing some adult/kid looking down at what is probably his/her phone. It is scary out there driving. Really scary. If people were dying in fires like they were in car accidents, it would warrant the above scenario.
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Post by elaine on May 9, 2017 3:43:19 GMT
And so....we should give them a taste of every experience that could happen without warning? Fires are preventable. I'm not going to include smoke and "burning bodies" in my fire drill just to REALLY drive the point home. Our fire department has a mobile home-sized unit that does this, in terms of fire and smoke. Not burned bodies, because elementary school kids do the simulator. But, for 16-18 y.o., I'd be fine with cosmetically/theatrical made-up burned bodies too. Most kids that age have seen much worse on the Walking Dead, or a variety of other zombie shows and movies. That said, drinking is involved in 33% of teenage driving fatalities. And car accidents are the number one cause of death in teens. I couldn't even find the stats for death rate by fire. There are very good reasons, backed by data, for interventions with the focus on teens behind the wheel and safe driving.
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compeateropeator
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Post by compeateropeator on May 9, 2017 5:47:57 GMT
I will reiterate this again, IMO I think for the majority of students this a very important program and one that they should have to attend.
However, I have learned after reading post after post from pea parents that often "others" do not know what is right for their child and that there are often certain circumstances or situations that people are not privy to that drive their decisions regarding the safety and well being of their child.
I do not understand how others feel it is beneficial to in some way harm a kid to make a point. Aren't we trying to get kids through life with as little harm and trauma as possible? And while it may only be one kid that is harmed, isn't that one too many? Especially for something that is not even a real life situation and which can be easily avoided by some sort of forewarning or notification to the parents.
You get to make that decision for your kid but I do not think that you get to make it for someone else's while they are still in Highschool.
People are using the argument that these kids are almost in college and should be able to handle it but I see a lot of post about specific things that parents would not allow their kid to do, like stay home alone, or go to a concert, etc. If these kids are going to be in college shouldn't they be able to stay by themselves or be downstairs with a girlfriend or boyfriend without parent intervention?
I understand I am in the small small minority but I believe that everything else in highschool requires parental approval and so should this.
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anniebygaslight
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Post by anniebygaslight on May 9, 2017 5:59:40 GMT
I have no idea what PVM means.
However, if this initiative causes even one young person to think twice about getting behind the wheel of a car whilst under the influence of alcohol, then it was worth it.
Life is full on unpleasant things. We can't shelter them for ever. Better that they see it this way than in reality.
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compeateropeator
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Post by compeateropeator on May 9, 2017 6:22:33 GMT
No you can not shelter them forever and it is better for them to see it this way. However you have no way of knowing if maybe they have already experienced this in real life and living through this reenactment does nothing other than cause emotional distress. If you are the parent of some kid who has already faced real trauma don't you think it you have the right to opt them out of some reenactment that may cause them harm? That is my only point.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2017 6:27:42 GMT
I have no idea what PVM means. However, if this initiative causes even one young person to think twice about getting behind the wheel of a car whilst under the influence of alcohol, then it was worth it. Life is full on unpleasant things. We can't shelter them for ever. Better that they see it this way than in reality. PVM means please validate me:)
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