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Post by theroadlesstraveledp on Sept 27, 2017 17:27:03 GMT
Both my maternal grandparents had dementia and dad promised mom he would never put her in a home. I've told my DH and kids it is ok if that decision ever needs to be made for me. Yep it's a hard decision. We promised my grandfather that as well. But it just wasn't possible in the end.
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Deleted
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May 21, 2024 15:12:59 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2017 19:27:41 GMT
Dh had an aunt who wandered off from home and the whole small town started searching for her but couldn't find her for a week. So sorry, hope you can find a good solution. Starting with the lawyer sounds good. Is your dad going with you?
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Post by lbp on Sept 27, 2017 19:39:22 GMT
Sending you hugs. Dementia is brutal on the one afflicted and the ones caring for them. We finally had to put DH's mom in a nursing home when she started wandering at night. We put alarms on the doors and she figured out how to disarm them! We even went so far as to put a fence around the house. She climbed over. I know your Dad wants her at home, but that may not be feasible as the disease progresses. I would start looking for someone or some place they can afford now.
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Rhondito
Pearl Clutcher
MississipPea
Posts: 4,664
Jun 25, 2014 19:33:19 GMT
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Post by Rhondito on Sept 27, 2017 19:57:44 GMT
this is my biggest fear. even if it is taken out in both of their names, if my dad dies first, mom will have to leave the house and they would lose their equity. I just wanted to clarify a few thing on a reverse mortgage. They don't lose the equity. The reverse mortgage becomes due after death or when the parties leave the house. For example, if they have $200,000 in equity and take out $50,000 to pay for staying in the home and 6 months later they both need to enter an assisted living facility. They can move into the facility and sell the house and repay the $50,000 (and interest and finance charges) and they will still have $150,000 in equity - the bank doesn't get to keep the whole house. The real issue is that people often spend through the entirety of their equity and one spouse dies and the other spouse is not able to keep the home and is left with no assets whatsoever. Another clarification - the amount to be repaid doesn't stay at $50,000. Interest is continually added so as time goes by, the equity is eaten away. My parents took out a reverse mortgage in 2010 for $80,000 - my mom now owes almost $130,000. Worst decision they ever made. Save
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Post by Darcy Collins on Sept 27, 2017 20:05:05 GMT
I just wanted to clarify a few thing on a reverse mortgage. They don't lose the equity. The reverse mortgage becomes due after death or when the parties leave the house. For example, if they have $200,000 in equity and take out $50,000 to pay for staying in the home and 6 months later they both need to enter an assisted living facility. They can move into the facility and sell the house and repay the $50,000 (and interest and finance charges) and they will still have $150,000 in equity - the bank doesn't get to keep the whole house. The real issue is that people often spend through the entirety of their equity and one spouse dies and the other spouse is not able to keep the home and is left with no assets whatsoever. Another clarification - the amount to be repaid doesn't stay at $50,000. Interest is continually added so as time goes by, the equity is eaten away. My parents took out a reverse mortgage in 2010 for $80,000 - my mom now owes almost $130,000. Worst decision they ever made. SaveThanks for adding your experience - I'd included (and interest and finance charges) but it doesn't hurt to emphasize. Depending on the interest rate, those numbers can grow quickly.
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Rhondito
Pearl Clutcher
MississipPea
Posts: 4,664
Jun 25, 2014 19:33:19 GMT
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Post by Rhondito on Sept 27, 2017 20:13:56 GMT
I think the night time is stressing him out because my mom's sleep patterns are so erratic. Alzheimer's patients get worse at night, it's called Sundowning. They get more confused, more belligerent, more agitated at night. You asked for advice and mine would be... Have your parents sell their house, use the proceeds to place them in a facility that has Assisted Living (for your dad) and Memory Care / Alzheimer's treatment for your mom. Your dad can still have independence and be with your mom, and she will be well taken care of. How bad is everyone willing to let things get before you decide she can't live at home? Save
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Post by mom on Sept 27, 2017 20:14:16 GMT
Have you gone at looked at Assisted living facilities. I ask because you referred to them as Nursing Homes, and if you haven't' been in one in the last 5-10 years they have changed dramatically. They are not the nursing homes of our youth. I have seen them, my mom was in one for her rehab and recovery after her hip surgery. it was a very nice one that kicked her out after 3 weeks. we looked at a few Medicaid run ones and they were horrifying. so the nursing homes from our youth still exist. Unfortunately. the "nice" ones cost $$$$$ out of pocket and my parents have $$, or just enough to live every month. At their house. UGH!!! My husband is on the corporate side of a company that owns several nursing homes and skilled care centers (their newest one is for Alzheimer's care specifically). Please look around. Yes, some of the Medicaid ones are not as nice. But there will most likely be others who do take Medicaid and also are nice. I know some of the Nursing homes from my husbands company take both: private pay and Medicaid. They do not advertise this to the general public, but once you get there and start asking questions then they tell you this. But according to my DH, this happens a lot with nursing homes. They also can use a sliding scale for payments. SaveSave
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Deleted
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May 21, 2024 15:12:59 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2017 20:16:23 GMT
My father in law wants to do this just to say f @ ck you to his sons. He plans to gamble away all the money and leave them nothing but bills. The brother that the old shit still listens to has been fighting him about it for a couple years now.
Btw your sister is right you all need to step up, just because she stays at home doesn't mean that she is the designated caretaker.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
May 21, 2024 15:12:59 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2017 20:18:33 GMT
I think the night time is stressing him out because my mom's sleep patterns are so erratic. Alzheimer's patients get worse at night, it's called Sundowning. They get more confused, more belligerent, more agitated at night. You asked for advice and mine would be... Have your parents sell their house, use the proceeds to place them in a facility that has Assisted Living (for your dad) and Memory Care / Alzheimer's treatment for your mom. Your dad can still have independence and be with your mom, and she will be well taken care of. How bad is everyone willing to let things get before you decide she can't live at home? SaveThis
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Post by mom on Sept 27, 2017 20:21:37 GMT
My father in law wants to do this just to say f @ ck you to his sons. He plans to gamble away all the money and leave them nothing but bills. The brother that the old shit still listens to has been fighting him about it for a couple years now. Btw your sister is right you all need to step up, just because she stays at home doesn't mean that she is the designated caretaker. I agree, 1000% with this. I have been the 'sister who doesn't have a full time job'. I was expected to be there, day and night, because I 'could' and my 5 brothers and sisters would help out when it was convenient for their families. Nevermind I had my own family. Also? If your sister is the one who is doing most of the care giving then she gets the final vote on everything because she is the one dealing with all the consequences day in and day out. SaveSave
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Post by Darcy Collins on Sept 27, 2017 20:24:26 GMT
My father in law wants to do this just to say f @ ck you to his sons. He plans to gamble away all the money and leave them nothing but bills. The brother that the old shit still listens to has been fighting him about it for a couple years now. Btw your sister is right you all need to step up, just because she stays at home doesn't mean that she is the designated caretaker. Children are not liable for bills of their parents (assuming they haven't cosigned anything).
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Post by mom on Sept 27, 2017 20:25:20 GMT
I don't think she is ready for a nursing home yet and is certainly not at end of life. She is still cognizant of her kids and my dad but has her moments when she is in another world. My dad does not want to leave his home and does not want to place mom anywhere. Yet. but considering that it has only been 3 months since he has been carrying this load(the broken hip and exacerbation of the Alzheimer's), it's going to get old fast. What do you think it will take for you to realize she is not ok at home? SaveSave
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deanna
Junior Member
Posts: 71
Jan 14, 2015 18:19:55 GMT
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Post by deanna on Sept 27, 2017 20:25:29 GMT
So sorry you are all going through this. Dementia is such a cruel thing!!
I know the older lady that lives across the street has Dementia and has been found wandering in the neighborhood. One of our neighbors found her in her bathrobe, sat her down on a lawn chair in the front yard, and called the police because she didn't know where the lady lived!! So, the police came and started going up the street to find someone that might know where she came from. Fortunately, they didn't have to go far to find where she belonged!! This lady is never outside so that is why none of the neighbors knew where she came from. Anyhow, I know they have someone come in and help with her care--not everyday. Someone also stays at night most nights. Two of her adult children live there with her, and apparently, take care of her. As far as I know nobody in the household works, and nobody looks very "rich" either. (older cars, nothing extravagant, "normal clothes" shops at Walmart--(seen on the bags). We live in a very modest neighborhood. I do know the house is a rental. Not sure where they are getting help from, but from somewhere! I know private care costs money, but it may be less than a facility, plus she'd be in her own home. Good luck my Dear! It is really hard to figure out sometimes. Keeping her safe (having her use her walker, not escaping or getting lost) is a full-time job!! I feel for your dad--I know he's probably feeling he can care for her "just fine." I'm an older person, married 53 years, so I get it. I'm sure I'd feel the same way, as would my dh if it were me that was the patient. I was also a Registered Nurse, and know how much care it takes to take care of someone with dementia! ((HUGS))
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Post by papersilly on Sept 27, 2017 20:33:00 GMT
i'm sorry you are going through this. i don't know anything about reverse mortgages and have heard the same things that others have posted about.
if you parents don't want to leave the home, is it possible for all the siblings to chip in financially for in-home care? that's what we did with my mom. this enabled 24-hour in home care for her until she passed away. this made sense since none of us could move in and care for her but we wanted her to stay in her home.
i hope you find the solution that works for your parents. BTW, i think it's wonderful of your dad to want to care for your mom but it's just too much at his age. he needs help now and 24 hours/day. good luck to you.
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Post by papersilly on Sept 27, 2017 20:36:20 GMT
I don't think she is ready for a nursing home yet and is certainly not at end of life. She is still cognizant of her kids and my dad but has her moments when she is in another world. My dad does not want to leave his home and does not want to place mom anywhere. Yet. but considering that it has only been 3 months since he has been carrying this load(the broken hip and exacerbation of the Alzheimer's), it's going to get old fast. What do you think it will take for you to realize she is not ok at home? SaveSaveexactly! the fact that she wanders and behaves erratically is an indication that she may no longer be SAFE at home. you father may try his best but he can't watch her or keep up with her 24 hours/day. like you said in your OP, he is exhausted. her safety should be a priority right now. if she can't be safely care for at home, maybe you should consider moving her, for HER safety.
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Post by marysue63 on Sept 27, 2017 20:36:20 GMT
First off - hugs to you, I know this is very difficult. My mom didn't want to move from her house either but when she saw me in tears day after day, and me having to flat out tell her that she was a burden did she finally come around. Thankfully she has the money for assisted living! But I learned a lot on the way to assisted living.
I want to caution you about using "A Place for Mom." They are basically agents for nursing facilities. They get paid by the facilities so of course they are going to direct you to 'their' facilities and not necessarily the right one for your loved one.
I urge you to contact your county department on Aging, or Senior Services, or whatever it is called in your area. (Ours is called the Council of Governments, strange!) They should have many, many ways to help, and they have vast knowledge of 'the system.'
Good luck!
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Deleted
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May 21, 2024 15:12:59 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2017 21:26:22 GMT
My father in law wants to do this just to say f @ ck you to his sons. He plans to gamble away all the money and leave them nothing but bills. The brother that the old shit still listens to has been fighting him about it for a couple years now. Btw your sister is right you all need to step up, just because she stays at home doesn't mean that she is the designated caretaker. Children are not liable for bills of their parents (assuming they haven't cosigned anything). The estate will be responsible for final costs/ medical bills. It will be a mess if he gets that reverse mortgage.
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mommyv
Shy Member
Posts: 37
Jun 26, 2014 4:08:24 GMT
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Post by mommyv on Sept 27, 2017 21:33:52 GMT
If your father is a veteran, please look into VA aid and attendance. Your parents could get some financial assistance for better living arrangements if they qualify.
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momto4kiddos
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,151
Jun 26, 2014 11:45:15 GMT
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Post by momto4kiddos on Sept 27, 2017 21:50:27 GMT
Not sure if this is an option or the long-term implications of doing this, but there are aides that will work overnight. That might be a solution at least for a time so Dad gets his rest.
We did this when Mom refused rehab after a knee replacement. We were concerned about Dad's sleep or her trying to get up on her own while medicated. It worked out very well, the aide came in sometime around 9 or 10 pm and stayed overnight to watch and help her. I know long-term is a lot different than the short-term need we had, but it was a tremendous help.
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Post by Darcy Collins on Sept 27, 2017 21:53:20 GMT
Children are not liable for bills of their parents (assuming they haven't cosigned anything). The estate will be responsible for final costs/ medical bills. It will be a mess if he gets that reverse mortgage. One of the few good things about a reverse mortgage is that it doesn't matter how upside down the estate ends up - there is no recourse to the heirs. It sounds like your fil isn't interested in leaving an inheritance to his children - it's extremely easy to disinherit ones children - you really don't need a reverse mortgage to do it.
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Post by Basket1lady on Sept 27, 2017 22:06:08 GMT
I'm so sorry that you are dealing with this. My MIL has a form of dementia related to Parkinson's and is still in the home, with my 84 year old FIL caring for her. He promised that he would never put her in a home and is trying his best to live up to that promise. But he was just diagnosed with a degenerative nerve disorder and just last week put them on a list for an assisted care facility. They are being told that it's a year wait, but they can stay together, even if one or the other needs to move up to a higher level of care.
They did have someone come in for a few months for respite care so that my FIL can go grocery shopping or just take a nap. But MIL didn't like it, so they stopped. They are in Wyoming, we live in Virginia, and DH's sister lives in Minnesota, so they really don't have family to help. And all of their friends are either in the same poor health condition or have died.
It sounds like your dad is coping, but really needs to have some help to watch over her. For FIL, we approached home care with the thought that it would keep MIL in the home longer if he had help. They have now hired a distant family member that lives out there to help out a few hours a week. MIL tolerates her because FIL keeps telling her that she's family and needs the money. So MIL puts up with it.
Would your father consider a college student living in the house? Someone to watch over MIL at night? That may help take some of the pressure off of him and let him get a good night's sleep. The kids that are out of state can chip in to help pay for it. Divided by 5, the cost should be reasonable.
As for the reverse mortgage, my grandmother took one out shortly after my grandfather died and didn't tell anyone until it came time for her to go into assisted living 20 years later. By then, all the money was gone. My grandfather built that house after returning from WWII and took the streetcar out to the suburbs each night to work on the house until dark. The buyout to keep the house in the family was much greater than it was worth, so no one could get a mortgage. The house ended up going to auction and sold for the actual value of the home. Such a shame--it really was a cute little house.
Grandma was allowed to stay in the house until her death, then the family had one year to vacate or buy it back. My aunt (with bipolar issues and more) somehow found a loophole and was actually able to keep the house for another year. But she didn't pay the gas or electric bills and ended up moving out when winter came and there wasn't any heat (in Minnesota!) It really was a shame. In the long run, Grandma got what she needed from the house. So I would never say never. But you should go into it with full knowledge and your eyes wide open.
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Post by crazy4scraps on Sept 27, 2017 22:10:37 GMT
First off - hugs to you, I know this is very difficult. My mom didn't want to move from her house either but when she saw me in tears day after day, and me having to flat out tell her that she was a burden did she finally come around. Thankfully she has the money for assisted living! But I learned a lot on the way to assisted living. I want to caution you about using "A Place for Mom." They are basically agents for nursing facilities. They get paid by the facilities so of course they are going to direct you to 'their' facilities and not necessarily the right one for your loved one. I urge you to contact your county department on Aging, or Senior Services, or whatever it is called in your area. (Ours is called the Council of Governments, strange!) They should have many, many ways to help, and they have vast knowledge of 'the system.' Good luck! We had a very good experience with A Place for Mom. We found them to be helpful and they gave us a lot of current information on a variety of options in our area with no pressure whatsoever. After going over all of our options, we chose the place that was the best fit for our family. It's just one more resource that can be utilized to quickly gather information on multiple places at once. As several others have noted it tends to be a decision that is often put off longer than it probably should, and once a family is faced with the reality of the immediacy of their need, time is of the essence.
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basketdiva
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,619
Jun 26, 2014 11:45:09 GMT
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Post by basketdiva on Sept 27, 2017 22:31:13 GMT
Children are not liable for bills of their parents (assuming they haven't cosigned anything). The estate will be responsible for final costs/ medical bills. It will be a mess if he gets that reverse mortgage. If the estate doesn't any assets to pay those bills,then they don't get paid. Anything willed to anyone gets paid last. So your husband and his still would not be liable for your FIL. it might or might not be a mess depending on how many years he lives after taking out a mortgage.
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Post by shamrock on Sept 27, 2017 22:34:32 GMT
I say this as gently as I can, please don't wait till you think she is ready to move her to an assisted living or memory care residence. Dementia, whatever the reason for it, is awful to witness as a caregiver. It steals the person you know and colors your memories of that person. It isolates and divides.
My aunt promised my granny she'd never have to leave her home (worst thing to promise). Granny covered her dementia very well, as long as she was home. But my aunt was practically living with her and my dad was over daily. They were used to how she was and didn't see how far she'd progressed. The other 2 siblings visited a few times a year. They didn't want to rock the boat and let Aunt call the shots. My dad (the oldest) tried for years to move her. It wasn't till the house was unable to be reinsured without a new roof that he finally got aunt to agree to move Granny. The assisted living residence evaluated her and thought she'd be fine on the assisted living area. Within 2 weeks of moving, they realized how severe her dementia was and how much she'd been covering. They noticed the Sundowners and got treatment. Aunt had just said Granny would get grumpy in the evenings. It wasn't that it was much worse as time went on. She lived for 2 years after she went into a memory care residence. She'd not worked in probably over 50 years, and when she had it was as a store clerk. My grandfather hadn't worked for long due to Parkinson's & early onset Alzheimers. There wasn't much money other than proceeds from selling her house, but my dad & his siblings found a way.
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Post by christine58 on Sept 27, 2017 23:27:33 GMT
I don't think she is ready for a nursing home yet and is certainly not at end of life. She is still cognizant of her kids and my dad but has her moments when she is in another world. My dad does not want to leave his home and does not want to place mom anywhere. Yet. but considering that it has only been 3 months since he has been carrying this load(the broken hip and exacerbation of the Alzheimer's), it's going to get old fast. He can't care for her and a nursing home doesn't mean end of life. She needs to be safe as does he. She isn't going to get better. DO NOT do a reverse mortgage. Let the lawyer help you. They both probably need 24hr care.
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Post by hop2 on Sept 27, 2017 23:37:21 GMT
1 piece of advice I can offer about the showers, it is sometimes difficult for a dementia patient to accept hygiene help from relatives. Not sure why but it was an issue with my mother, my paternal aunt & paternal grandmother all of whom had some kind of dementia. However they gave a home health aid zero trouble Go figure. Perhaps that is something that might help? ( here the home health aides aren’t nurses so somewhat less expensive ) Also, there are toilet seat/lid alarms and various other helpful contraptions. Google caregiver aids or caregiver products. There places like this one ( haven’t used this specific one but just st an example of places to look for ideas, it’s been too long for me to remember where we bought stuff ) www.elderstore.com/caregiver-aids_113.aspxSorry I can’t offer any advice on the mortgage thing as I have no experience. {{{Hugs}}} it’s very difficult caring for aging parents with health issues
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Deleted
Posts: 0
May 21, 2024 15:12:59 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2017 23:47:02 GMT
I would start looking for a nice place. A nice place takes a long time to get into.
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DEX
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,355
Aug 9, 2014 23:13:22 GMT
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Post by DEX on Sept 28, 2017 11:05:46 GMT
I have worked long term care. My advise is, yes, it is time to move. Don't wait until you believe it is time. Speaking from experience when it becomes time could happen in the blink of an eye. Speaking from experience, one week my Dad seemed fine and the next week I was scrambling to find any place that would take him due to his Dementia progression. The next month he was dead.
Be proactive. Don't wait until there is a crisis and you end up taking what you can get. Best of luck. I know how hard this is.
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maryannscraps
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,731
Aug 28, 2017 12:51:28 GMT
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Post by maryannscraps on Sept 28, 2017 11:29:29 GMT
I just wanted to chime in with a distinction that you probably already know, but others might not. Assisted living is a different level of care than skilled nursing (or nursing home). Assisted Living homes are now the first level of care for dementia patients, unlike in the past. Medicare doesn't pay, but usually the cost is significantly less.
I place my parents in one, on an emergency basis (which I don't recommend), and they were placed on different floors. My dad was on the locked memory care floor, while my mom was in her own room. We had to do that because she was so exhausted, with her own mobility issues, was horribly sleep deprived, and deeply depressed. She just couldn't care for him on her own. Getting sleep was key -- she was still depressed, but not talking about taking her own life.
My dad was in a similar situation to your mom, but my mom couldn't chase him when he wandered off. After two different police searches for him, my sisters and I moved them close to me. It was difficult, but I think it saved my mom's life.
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Post by Scrapbrat on Sept 28, 2017 11:34:15 GMT
Don't do a reverse mortgage, please. If one person takes it out and passes away, the loan becomes due. You have to commit to living in the property. If you can't, the loan becomes due. So many pitfalls. Unless you are certain that your parents will be able to live in the home, and afford the upkeep and costs, for the entire term of the loan. Please do lots of research on this. V this is my biggest fear. even if it is taken out in both of their names, if my dad dies first, mom will have to leave the house and they would lose their equity. My parents had a reverse mortgage. Also, I'm a lawyer. This isn't exactly correct. If both are on the deed, then I believe that both have to take out the reverse mortgage, and one of the major selling points of a reverse mortgage is that when one spouse dies, the other can continue to live in the home. Actually, they HAVE to continue to live in the home -- in my parents' case, my mom passed away and my dad continued to live in the house for 10+ years after that. When he eventually needed to live somewhere else due to medical reasons, the contract stated that he had one year to repay the loan. A reverse mortgage is typically repaid by the heirs selling the house after both parents have passed away, and the loan is repaid with the proceeds of the sale. As far as losing equity, that's the whole point of the reverse mortgage. The equity they have now is what it is used to pay them a set amount each month, and then those disbursements accumulate into the loan balance.
Although my parents' experience with a reverse mortgage was not terrible, I would probably not advise it in most cases. It is pretty complicated, and most people don't really understand the whole process thoroughly. There can be many conditions that will cause the loan to become due, and if the house has to be sold relatively quickly to repay the loan, you risk not getting the best price for it. In my parents' case, their house had actually gone down in value since the last time it was appraised, so we (the kids) did not have to worry about actually repaying the loan. If it looks like your dad may need to live somewhere else in addition to your mom being in a facility, then that's another strike against a reverse mortgage. They are a way for people to stay in their homes, and if you can't live in the home, it doesn't work. Anyway, if your mom needs to go into a facility at some point, there are some that take Medicaid (a lot don't, though), and your dad can apply for Medicaid just for her alone. And yes, you basically can't have any assets, but some things are excluded from the asset calculation, and if I remember correctly, you can keep your house. Those are questions you should ask the attorney that you are meeting with.
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