cycworker
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,375
Jun 26, 2014 0:42:38 GMT
|
Post by cycworker on Oct 31, 2017 17:55:34 GMT
I read this and thought, nah, I'm missing something cultural or something historical. This is not about party invites. This is about something else. I do not know if cycworker is on to the truth but this isn't about a party or being told you can't invite someone. Figure out their motivation and you can probably figure out how to understand what is happening. I do not condone their attitudes, reactions or demands. I am simply saying this isn't about the guest list or the money. This!!! Thank you! If you really want to solve the issue paigepea , you & dh will have to talk to them again. And you need to stop making the conversation a back and forth about party size... "We want a small party!" "We want a big party!" That is just taking positions. You will need to start asking open questions to truly understand what the real meaning of the party is to them & figure out how to find common ground. Like it or not, they are likely feeling disrespected. They could well see your dh's reaction as him 'forgetting where he came from.' When you have those kinds of broader conversations about the meaning of things, then you can come to solutions. I'll give two examples: When my brother & SIL understood WHY my mom wanted to invite X number of people they had never met, they were able to have a different conversation. They were then able to say, 'Ok... we trust you. We just ask that you respect the size of the venue - we aren't changing that, that you use discernment & good judgement to only choose those 'community elders' who would most matter to Nana, and that you contribute for those extra guests.' Second example - and I've brought this example up before as a quintessential example about how often we as people aren't always arguing about what we think we're arguing about: My parents went away one summer. My bro was 18ish; I was 29ish. He drove my dad's truck a lot. That was fine. I was used to him driving the truck. But one day out of the blue he says, 'Oh, I'm going over to Vancouver with my friend R to watch wrestling.' Silly me says, 'Cool. How are you getting there?' He's all like, "Well duh, I'm taking dad's truck." To which I say, "Like hell you are. Nobody said anything to me about you being allowed to drive dad's truck on the ferry/on the mainland (we live on Vancouver Island). We do about 15 minutes of back & forth shouting no you aren't / yes I am unproductive arguing. Finally we somehow call time. I go to class the next day & we are talking about interest based conflict resolution. I'm finally able to calm the bleep down (we practiced this particular argument in class) and figure out how to talk to him about it. Once we did that, we were able to get down to what really mattered. He didn't want to lose face. I was scared because if he got stuck, I'd be too far away to help him. And also that if something happened to the truck my parents would kill me, especially because I still didn't quite believe he had permission to drive it on the mainland. His godmother/our honorary aunt was willing to be in the position of 'If your parents get mad, I'll tell your parents I overruled you & let J. take the truck.' J took the cell phone & called me 2-3 times that day to check in. I let him make fun of me re: his friend... "Yeah, my crazy sister..." so it wasn't that he was a baby who couldn't go to Vancouver for the day on his own, it was his neurotic, control freak sister who was the issue. He got home safe & sound and I think it's the last time we've ever argued that intensely because we learned to stop & get beyond the surface of the argument to what the argument's really about. Talk to them again, paigepea . Ask them what this party means to them. What do they need? What are their hopes? Their fears? What is the deeper meaning of this event to them? What is it to you? Where do your core needs overlap & how do you work together to get those met? Stop debating minutiae about numbers & names. ETA: as an aside, he actually DID ask my parents about taking the truck to the wrestling match prior to them leaving, & my mother apologized, because she forgot to tell me about it. It was just SO odd to me that they'd tell him, 'Sure, take the truck' and not mention it to me, & she totally understood why I thought he might be trying to pull one over on me.
|
|
paigepea
Drama Llama
Enter your message here...
Posts: 5,609
Location: BC, Canada
Jun 26, 2014 4:28:55 GMT
|
Post by paigepea on Oct 31, 2017 18:55:30 GMT
I read this and thought, nah, I'm missing something cultural or something historical. This is not about party invites. This is about something else. I do not know if cycworker is on to the truth but this isn't about a party or being told you can't invite someone. Figure out their motivation and you can probably figure out how to understand what is happening. I do not condone their attitudes, reactions or demands. I am simply saying this isn't about the guest list or the money. This!!! Thank you! If you really want to solve the issue paigepea , you & dh will have to talk to them again. And you need to stop making the conversation a back and forth about party size... "We want a small party!" "We want a big party!" That is just taking positions. You will need to start asking open questions to truly understand what the real meaning of the party is to them & figure out how to find common ground. Like it or not, they are likely feeling disrespected. They could well see your dh's reaction as him 'forgetting where he came from.' When you have those kinds of broader conversations about the meaning of things, then you can come to solutions. I'll give two examples: When my brother & SIL understood WHY my mom wanted to invite X number of people they had never met, they were able to have a different conversation. They were then able to say, 'Ok... we trust you. We just ask that you respect the size of the venue - we aren't changing that, that you use discernment & good judgement to only choose those 'community elders' who would most matter to Nana, and that you contribute for those extra guests.' Second example - and I've brought this example up before as a quintessential example about how often we as people aren't always arguing about what we think we're arguing about: My parents went away one summer. My bro was 18ish; I was 29ish. He drove my dad's truck a lot. That was fine. I was used to him driving the truck. But one day out of the blue he says, 'Oh, I'm going over to Vancouver with my friend R to watch wrestling.' Silly me says, 'Cool. How are you getting there?' He's all like, "Well duh, I'm taking dad's truck." To which I say, "Like hell you are. Nobody said anything to me about you being allowed to drive dad's truck on the ferry/on the mainland (we live on Vancouver Island). We do about 15 minutes of back & forth shouting no you aren't / yes I am unproductive arguing. Finally we somehow call time. I go to class the next day & we are talking about interest based conflict resolution. I'm finally able to calm the bleep down (we practiced this particular argument in class) and figure out how to talk to him about it. Once we did that, we were able to get down to what really mattered. He didn't want to lose face. I was scared because if he got stuck, I'd be too far away to help him. And also that if something happened to the truck my parents would kill me, especially because I still didn't quite believe he had permission to drive it on the mainland. His godmother/our honorary aunt was willing to be in the position of 'If your parents get mad, I'll tell your parents I overruled you & let J. take the truck.' J took the cell phone & called me 2-3 times that day to check in. I let him make fun of me re: his friend... "Yeah, my crazy sister..." so it wasn't that he was a baby who couldn't go to Vancouver for the day on his own, it was his neurotic, control freak sister who was the issue. He got home safe & sound and I think it's the last time we've ever argued that intensely because we learned to stop & get beyond the surface of the argument to what the argument's really about. Talk to them again, paigepea . Ask them what this party means to them. What do they need? What are their hopes? Their fears? What is the deeper meaning of this event to them? What is it to you? Where do your core needs overlap & how do you work together to get those met? Stop debating minutiae about numbers & names. ETA: as an aside, he actually DID ask my parents about taking the truck to the wrestling match prior to them leaving, & my mother apologized, because she forgot to tell me about it. It was just SO odd to me that they'd tell him, 'Sure, take the truck' and not mention it to me, & she totally understood why I thought he might be trying to pull one over on me. No , we didn’t just talk about numbers. We talked about he purpose of the party and who is throwing it and who should be there. They didn’t care. They feel like any who isn’t invited will hate them forever. We explained that we get that and included many people who we don’t know just to make them feel better about everything. And then they added more and more and more and I explained that we didn’t feel comfortable with people we don’t know. The room is big enough for everyone. It isn’t about the money. We didn’t want a party that was too large. Our daughter voiced concern about the size and about people she doesn’t know at all (or that her parents don’t know). This was not enough. They still pushed. And then did the passive aggressive than take off everyone.
|
|
paigepea
Drama Llama
Enter your message here...
Posts: 5,609
Location: BC, Canada
Jun 26, 2014 4:28:55 GMT
|
Post by paigepea on Oct 31, 2017 19:03:40 GMT
I am going to shock folks and generally agree. That said, you are oversimplifying the problem. The ILs are clearly old school. They care about appearances. For them, this event isn't just for the OP's dd; it's a reflection of then and the family's standing in the wider community. On some level, the desire of the OP & her dh re: limiting the size of the party is an embarrassment to them. That is why they're cutting the folks the OP knows. It isn't to be passive aggressive. They're cutting the folks who understand the culture enough to cut them slack because they get these 'folks the OP doesn't even know' are the status conscious ones who will damage the family's reputation if they aren't given the invite they are 'owed' because these things are about social quid pro quo. These folks they are keeping are the ones to whom they see themselves as socially indebted to, or with whom they will lose face if they're snubbed. Truly, as much as it pains me and you will hate heating it, I'd take a day or two and calm down. Then ask why xyz are the list. If it is that important to them, I'd have the bigger party - IF they financially contribute, including finding and paying for a larger venue should that be necessary to meet what they deem as the family's social responsibilities. My parents had to do this for my brother's wedding. They knew I'd never marry, and he'd never have his kids christened, so his wedding was the last chance mom would have to balance any social debts our extended family had. She started 50ish over and then in discussing it with her sister got it down about 25 over - kept only the ones my late grandma would need there. The criteria was 'Would omitting this person cause our mother to roll over in her grave/haunt us forever.' As hard as it is too understand, YOU have hurt them. They are in their own way trying to look out for your family's reputation and it hurts them that you don't seem to care. As far as they're concerned, it matters how this wider community views them, you, and your kids, and you not getting that and sharing that concern is both hurtful & offensive to them on sone level. In their minds they're shielding you from being the subject of gossip & you're being ungrateful. I'm not saying it's right. I'm saying that's how it likely is. Are they old school? Or are they just jerks who want their way? Because I'm thinking if they are old school they would say "Paige we have to invite Mary Jo & Bill because they invite us to everything for their grandchildren." Instead they said stuff that is apparently so awful (to both DH & to Paige) that she won't even type it out here. That's not old school; that's asshole. [ Yes, a bit old school. These people invited to this and those invited us to that. We said - yes, but dh and I weren’t invited so it’s not the same because it’s our party and we’re inviting.
|
|
psiluvu
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,217
Location: Canada's Capital
Jun 25, 2014 22:52:26 GMT
|
Post by psiluvu on Oct 31, 2017 19:06:38 GMT
it’s our party and we’re inviting. Just keep repeating this over and over until they get it.
|
|
quiltz
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,707
Location: CANADA
Jun 29, 2014 16:13:28 GMT
|
Post by quiltz on Oct 31, 2017 19:19:19 GMT
Are they old school? Or are they just jerks who want their way? Because I'm thinking if they are old school they would say "Paige we have to invite Mary Jo & Bill because they invite us to everything for their grandchildren." Instead they said stuff that is apparently so awful (to both DH & to Paige) that she won't even type it out here. That's not old school; that's asshole. [ Yes, a bit old school. These people invited to this and those invited us to that. We said - yes, but dh and I weren’t invited so it’s not the same because it’s our party and we’re inviting. Just keep repeating that this event isn't about settling any social score keeping. You can do it!
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
May 15, 2024 18:46:56 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2017 19:20:10 GMT
They cut the people you know because they think you'll just add them back and then they're in "your" allowance instead of theirs and they get their way.
It's your party, your money. You and only you should be in charge of the guest list.
|
|
|
Post by christine58 on Oct 31, 2017 20:00:20 GMT
You've lost focus on what this party and who this party is for. Scale it all back. Let this be about your daughter and no one else. Not someone's business associate etc. It doesn't have to be a HUGE party. Oh and your DH needs to be doing the calling. I think this is their way of being passive aggressive about the whole thing. Who cares if you can afford >300 people. I think you all have lost the true meaning of this event.
|
|
|
Post by Miss Lerins Momma on Oct 31, 2017 20:10:39 GMT
I am sorry they are ruining the party for you. Go back and take out the people off the list that you don't even know. Put back on the list the relatives you do know. You are already the bad guy so it doesn't matter. Trim the list until you have the number of people you can afford. This. Go back and add the relatives and people you do know. Don't ask for anymore of their input. Sorry they are jerks. You and I both have horrible inlaws. We should collaborate and write a book 😂😂
|
|
eleezybeth
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,784
Jun 28, 2014 20:42:01 GMT
|
Post by eleezybeth on Oct 31, 2017 20:29:42 GMT
They feel like any who isn’t invited will hate them forever. Yep- there you have it! The real answer is they feel like their friends will hate them forever if they aren't invited. They do NOT want their friends to hate them forever. They are indeed trying to save a face or a relationship. Now, you can address that you are indeed sorry that they are in this position as you NEVER intended for THEM to be hated forever (welcome back to Jr. High!). That you will be doing what is best for YOUR daughter and that if they could please tell their friends that you do not know that it all YOUR fault then your in-laws will not be hated forever. Would you really want to be hated forever? It doesn't really matter if this is real or perceived (my guess is perceived). They feel this way. They aren't doing this to piss you off or be passive aggressive jerks they are worried they are going to be hated forever. Sorry you have to be the heavy in this situation. It sucks and good boundaries with a heavy dose of empathy will help for your daughters graduation and wedding. I'm really not on the side of your in-laws. But I do believe you are all being very poor communicators.
|
|
|
Post by Really Red on Oct 31, 2017 20:49:18 GMT
They feel like any who isn’t invited will hate them forever. Yep- there you have it! The real answer is they feel like their friends will hate them forever if they aren't invited. They do NOT want their friends to hate them forever. They are indeed trying to save a face or a relationship. Now, you can address that you are indeed sorry that they are in this position as you NEVER intended for THEM to be hated forever (welcome back to Jr. High!). That you will be doing what is best for YOUR daughter and that if they could please tell their friends that you do not know that it all YOUR fault then your in-laws will not be hated forever. Would you really want to be hated forever? It doesn't really matter if this is real or perceived (my guess is perceived). They feel this way. They aren't doing this to piss you off or be passive aggressive jerks they are worried they are going to be hated forever. Sorry you have to be the heavy in this situation. It sucks and good boundaries with a heavy dose of empathy will help for your daughters graduation and wedding. I'm really not on the side of your in-laws. But I do believe you are all being very poor communicators. I disagree. Her DH gave them a number. That is pretty spanking clear. OP has talked with her ILs and they refuse to listen. I think we all understand what it's like to throw a party and have strangers come. OP - I am sorry. I hope you are getting mad and I hope you don't blame your DD either (you haven't said that you would, just hoping you don't). Think of how you talk to your teens and do the same thing to ILs. "John and Mary, I am sorry that we have had such a misunderstanding. We should not have asked you to come up with a list because it is clearly giving you a great deal of stress and that isn't fair. We are inviting the relatives, of course, and if you have [x] friends you'd like to invite, I will be happy to include them, regardless of whether or not we know them. [x] is our limit." The end. Do not listen, do not engage. When they give you a list that is [x+30], you say "John and Mary, I am taking the first [x] off the list." Then do NOT engage. You are DONE. Stop. Do not call. Do not explain. You are the parent and you need to be the parent for your child. Good luck!
|
|
|
Post by Darcy Collins on Oct 31, 2017 20:49:19 GMT
That is a pretty substantial mistake. If you said make a list of 30 people or 80 or whatever without letting them know that you weren't actually going to be inviting them, but choosing off the list, you should step back and apologize for the misunderstanding. I have no idea what's typical in your region. Here bat and bar mitvah's are very child focused. I'd say 80% or more of the invitees are the child's peers. I guess my first question is what does your DAUGHTER want. I can see some kids being perfectly find with a huge event and others being extremely uncomfortable. I'd start with the list of who your daughter wants whether it's peers or family. I'd then question how many extras she'd mind - maybe that's 5, maybe it's 50. Assuming the venue and budget can also handle those numbers, I'd then divide up the extras between you, your parents and your inlaws. I'd just be very clear with your inlaws that your daughter would like to celebrate her bat mitvah with those she knows and is comfortable with and would like to limit the strangers to x number - please let me know who you'd like those x to be.
|
|
|
Post by Darcy Collins on Oct 31, 2017 20:51:50 GMT
Yep- there you have it! The real answer is they feel like their friends will hate them forever if they aren't invited. They do NOT want their friends to hate them forever. They are indeed trying to save a face or a relationship. Now, you can address that you are indeed sorry that they are in this position as you NEVER intended for THEM to be hated forever (welcome back to Jr. High!). That you will be doing what is best for YOUR daughter and that if they could please tell their friends that you do not know that it all YOUR fault then your in-laws will not be hated forever. Would you really want to be hated forever? It doesn't really matter if this is real or perceived (my guess is perceived). They feel this way. They aren't doing this to piss you off or be passive aggressive jerks they are worried they are going to be hated forever. Sorry you have to be the heavy in this situation. It sucks and good boundaries with a heavy dose of empathy will help for your daughters graduation and wedding. I'm really not on the side of your in-laws. But I do believe you are all being very poor communicators. I disagree. Her DH gave them a number. That is pretty spanking clear. OP has talked with her ILs and they refuse to listen. I think we all understand what it's like to throw a party and have strangers come. OP - I am sorry. I hope you are getting mad and I hope you don't blame your DD either (you haven't said that you would, just hoping you don't). Think of how you talk to your teens and do the same thing to ILs. "John and Mary, I am sorry that we have had such a misunderstanding. We should not have asked you to come up with a list because it is clearly giving you a great deal of stress and that isn't fair. We are inviting the relatives, of course, and if you have [x] friends you'd like to invite, I will be happy to include them, regardless of whether or not we know them. [x] is our limit." The end. Do not listen, do not engage. When they give you a list that is [x+30], you say "John and Mary, I am taking the first [x] off the list." Then do NOT engage. You are DONE. Stop. Do not call. Do not explain. You are the parent and you need to be the parent for your child. Good luck! But they aren't inviting the number the DH gave them - they were intending to choose people off the list - unless I miss read the OPs comment I quoted above. I agree with you that when someone give you a number - that's pretty spanking clear - so I can understand why the ILs were confused.
|
|
cycworker
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,375
Jun 26, 2014 0:42:38 GMT
|
Post by cycworker on Oct 31, 2017 21:33:53 GMT
Sorry, paigepea - I have to agree. You and your dh have messed up, and you're not being fair to your in laws. They are not exaggerating when they say they will be hated. They know their circle. They know how things work. You two need to respect them & trust their wisdom as your elders, follow the commandment to honour your mother & father, and do as they have asked. In these kinds of cultures people can be ostracized for these kinds of things. And it's a double sense of disgracing... first it's for the slight of not inviting the people they need to, and the second disgrace it brings on them is that as the patriarch & matriarch of the family, their son dishonoured them by not doing as he was asked to do. It makes them look weak. It's an embarrassment to the family name. Y'all can say it's old school & crazy & stupid. I may on some level agree with you. But it is what it is. All you can do is honour your parents by giving them what they need, and making sure you break the cycle with your own kids by not putting those expectations on them. And no, you can't break the cycle by saying no to your in laws. See above. You'll be bringing disgrace onto them. Your peers/generation can only break the cycle by not doing it to your own kids when they have kids. You talk to your daughter & explain about the customs & social rules of her grandparents' generation, and the need to respect them/their values, and assure her when she's in your situation, you won't do the same... for now, though, you & dad will help her get through the party & it will be fine; you're just all going to have to suck it up for the sake of your grandparents.
|
|
|
Post by 950nancy on Oct 31, 2017 22:11:51 GMT
Mean/pushy in-laws who have unkind friends don't trump how you get to raise your kids. Cycworker, I can tell we have two totally different opinions here, but respecting our children is every bit as important as respecting adults. I made my kids suck up on many things, but this day is simply NOT about her grandparents. You show people how to treat you and these parents need to do this for their daughter. It is her day. The grandparents gave up their right to be included on the decisions when they would not listen to reason. Unless they are footing the bill, they are lucky to have any guest suggestions. They don't need to break the cycle. They need to put their foot down on this important day for their daughter and do what is best for their daughter.
The pushy in-laws will have to decide how to deal with their friends who will hate them if they are not invited. Sounds like all of them deserve each other. Hating someone for not being invited when you don't know them? That is just emotional blackmail. I don't buy it.
I'd love to see a Dr. Phil episode of this. Pretty sure he would call out the grandparents.
|
|
|
Post by christine58 on Oct 31, 2017 22:13:07 GMT
nd if you have [x] friends you'd like to invite, I will be happy to include them, regardless of whether or not we know them. [x] is our limit." I'd leave this out. This is her DD's party.. Grandparents should not have any say nor be allowed to invite their friends..
|
|
|
Post by christine58 on Oct 31, 2017 22:15:02 GMT
Sorry, paigepea - I have to agree. You and your dh have messed up, and you're not being fair to your in laws. They are not exaggerating when they say they will be hated. They know their circle. They know how things work. You two need to respect them & trust their wisdom as your elders, follow the commandment to honour your mother & father, and do as they have asked. In these kinds of cultures people can be ostracized for these kinds of things. And it's a double sense of disgracing... first it's for the slight of not inviting the people they need to, and the second disgrace it brings on them is that as the patriarch & matriarch of the family, their son dishonoured them by not doing as he was asked to do. It makes them look weak. It's an embarrassment to the family name. Y'all can say it's old school & crazy & stupid. I may on some level agree with you. But it is what it is. All you can do is honour your parents by giving them what they need, and making sure you break the cycle with your own kids by not putting those expectations on them. And no, you can't break the cycle by saying no to your in laws. See above. You'll be bringing disgrace onto them. Your peers/generation can only break the cycle by not doing it to your own kids when they have kids. You talk to your daughter & explain about the customs & social rules of her grandparents' generation, and the need to respect them/their values, and assure her when she's in your situation, you won't do the same... for now, though, you & dad will help her get through the party & it will be fine; you're just all going to have to suck it up for the sake of your grandparent Oh dear god...You are so wrong. These GRANDPARENTS have overstepped. This is about their granddaughter..NOT THEM.
|
|
Mary Kay Lady
Pearl Clutcher
PeaNut 367,913 Refupea number 1,638
Posts: 3,074
Jun 27, 2014 4:11:36 GMT
|
Post by Mary Kay Lady on Oct 31, 2017 22:16:43 GMT
I'm sorry. That really sucks. They're taking a party that's supposed to honor your DD and making it into a big social event with all of their friends.
If it's so important to them that all of the people on their guest list are invited maybe they could get out their checkbook and pay for some of their guests.
|
|
hannahruth
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,616
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Aug 29, 2014 18:57:20 GMT
|
Post by hannahruth on Oct 31, 2017 22:20:44 GMT
This I get. Every time we called to tell them we didn’t want people we don’t know the things they said to dh make me cringe. They treated it like it was their list - so their attitude made it worse. It was so dumb. Why am I feeling bad about it. My list. My party. My money. If they had offered to pay for some of the extras perhaps I would have given in a bit but it also has to do with dd’s comfort level. It’s her party. You really don't have to tell them anything about the party. Just send them an invite. This - they may be grandparents but they are guests just as others are. Not their party! Enjoy your day and ignore the IL's. This is a celebration for your daughter.
|
|
sassyangel
Drama Llama
Posts: 7,456
Jun 26, 2014 23:58:32 GMT
|
Post by sassyangel on Oct 31, 2017 22:21:07 GMT
Sorry, paigepea - I have to agree. You and your dh have messed up, and you're not being fair to your in laws. They are not exaggerating when they say they will be hated. They know their circle. They know how things work. You two need to respect them & trust their wisdom as your elders, follow the commandment to honour your mother & father, and do as they have asked. In these kinds of cultures people can be ostracized for these kinds of things. And it's a double sense of disgracing... first it's for the slight of not inviting the people they need to, and the second disgrace it brings on them is that as the patriarch & matriarch of the family, their son dishonoured them by not doing as he was asked to do. It makes them look weak. It's an embarrassment to the family name. Y'all can say it's old school & crazy & stupid. I may on some level agree with you. But it is what it is. All you can do is honour your parents by giving them what they need, and making sure you break the cycle with your own kids by not putting those expectations on them. And no, you can't break the cycle by saying no to your in laws. See above. You'll be bringing disgrace onto them. Your peers/generation can only break the cycle by not doing it to your own kids when they have kids. You talk to your daughter & explain about the customs & social rules of her grandparents' generation, and the need to respect them/their values, and assure her when she's in your situation, you won't do the same... for now, though, you & dad will help her get through the party & it will be fine; you're just all going to have to suck it up for the sake of your grandparents. We really can't just acknowledge it might be as simple as them being selfish assholes?
|
|
moodyblue
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,178
Location: Western Illinois
Site Supporter
Jun 26, 2014 21:07:23 GMT
|
Post by moodyblue on Oct 31, 2017 22:37:01 GMT
Sorry, paigepea - I have to agree. You and your dh have messed up, and you're not being fair to your in laws. They are not exaggerating when they say they will be hated. They know their circle. They know how things work. You two need to respect them & trust their wisdom as your elders, follow the commandment to honour your mother & father, and do as they have asked. In these kinds of cultures people can be ostracized for these kinds of things. And it's a double sense of disgracing... first it's for the slight of not inviting the people they need to, and the second disgrace it brings on them is that as the patriarch & matriarch of the family, their son dishonoured them by not doing as he was asked to do. It makes them look weak. It's an embarrassment to the family name. Y'all can say it's old school & crazy & stupid. I may on some level agree with you. But it is what it is. All you can do is honour your parents by giving them what they need, and making sure you break the cycle with your own kids by not putting those expectations on them. And no, you can't break the cycle by saying no to your in laws. See above. You'll be bringing disgrace onto them. Your peers/generation can only break the cycle by not doing it to your own kids when they have kids. You talk to your daughter & explain about the customs & social rules of her grandparents' generation, and the need to respect them/their values, and assure her when she's in your situation, you won't do the same... for now, though, you & dad will help her get through the party & it will be fine; you're just all going to have to suck it up for the sake of your grandparents. This description of the culture you are talking about kind of horrifies me. The whole trust and respect and obey your elders thing even though you are adults with your own children and making your own life choices? How long do you have to live your life to please others?
|
|
|
Post by freecharlie on Oct 31, 2017 22:42:04 GMT
Tell them if they are really friends, they will understand. Isn't that what we tell our children?
|
|
cycworker
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,375
Jun 26, 2014 0:42:38 GMT
|
Post by cycworker on Oct 31, 2017 23:05:23 GMT
Sorry, paigepea - I have to agree. You and your dh have messed up, and you're not being fair to your in laws. They are not exaggerating when they say they will be hated. They know their circle. They know how things work. You two need to respect them & trust their wisdom as your elders, follow the commandment to honour your mother & father, and do as they have asked. In these kinds of cultures people can be ostracized for these kinds of things. And it's a double sense of disgracing... first it's for the slight of not inviting the people they need to, and the second disgrace it brings on them is that as the patriarch & matriarch of the family, their son dishonoured them by not doing as he was asked to do. It makes them look weak. It's an embarrassment to the family name. Y'all can say it's old school & crazy & stupid. I may on some level agree with you. But it is what it is. All you can do is honour your parents by giving them what they need, and making sure you break the cycle with your own kids by not putting those expectations on them. And no, you can't break the cycle by saying no to your in laws. See above. You'll be bringing disgrace onto them. Your peers/generation can only break the cycle by not doing it to your own kids when they have kids. You talk to your daughter & explain about the customs & social rules of her grandparents' generation, and the need to respect them/their values, and assure her when she's in your situation, you won't do the same... for now, though, you & dad will help her get through the party & it will be fine; you're just all going to have to suck it up for the sake of your grandparents. This description of the culture you are talking about kind of horrifies me. The whole trust and respect and obey your elders thing even though you are adults with your own children and making your own life choices? How long do you have to live your life to please others? Until you get lucky & you reach a generation where the cycle can be broken, truthfully. The OP has a great a chance to break it when her daughter is an adult; it's too late to change it with the grandparents' generation though. I know you all think I'm crazy and/or exaggerating. I promise you, I'm not. If you've never lived it, you will NEVER understand. To the in-laws friends, the in-laws are the heads of the family. Paigepea & her dh will always be subordinate, as long as they're alive. They truly will hurt the inlaws if they don't back down & just do the party the way they want. Heck, I'm surprised the MIL didn't take the initiative to start planning the party to begin with... just the fact that it was the OP saying to them, give us your list of X number of people, as opposed to the other way around, is progress! I'm serious. I have had cultural peers/acquaintances (meaning - these aren't my friends, they're just people I know from the same culture) unable to invite their close friends to their weddings, etc, because of all the people they had to invite to meet their parent's/the extended family's social obligations. As in, "If you only want 200 people at your wedding, give me your list of 50.' The two sets of parents split the remaining 150. And letting the couple in question choose the total number of guests is, in itself, being generous in some extremes. My family isn't wealthy/high status enough to have gone that far, though. But they have connections with people who are at that level... like, in my culture, 250 guests is considered a small wedding. Under 100? We call that a 'private ceremony.'
|
|
RosieKat
Drama Llama
PeaJect #12
Posts: 5,396
Jun 25, 2014 19:28:04 GMT
|
Post by RosieKat on Oct 31, 2017 23:17:07 GMT
people aren't always arguing about what we think we're arguing about Whether this applies here or not, I think I'm adding this to my book of general life wisdom. And then did the passive aggressive than take off everyone. My MIL would probably do something like this if the situation had gone the way you described up till then. And at this point in my life, I would answer something like..."OK then, thanks for understanding!" And told DD she could invite 15 more kids. I understand how that may not work for everyone. I've only reached this point after many years of life and marriage. Is there any way to just announce that you're scaling it all way back, and making it just about DD? Maybe play up the religious side of things more? Since this is about DD taking her place as an adult in your religion (I know it's not that simple), say you want to honor that and make it clearly about her and her accomplishment? I don't come from a world of big celebrations for things like this, so I don't know what is socially acceptable/required for you, and I do acknowledge that's a huge restriction/set of expectations. I definitely think you can take the angle of not inviting people your DD doesn't even know.
|
|
peabay
Prolific Pea
Posts: 9,612
Jun 25, 2014 19:50:41 GMT
|
Post by peabay on Oct 31, 2017 23:19:35 GMT
All the grandparents have to say to their friends who will supposedly hate them is "we didn't make the guest list. So sorry." These people won't hate them. These people will likely be thrilled they don't have to write a check for 180 bucks.
|
|
moodyblue
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,178
Location: Western Illinois
Site Supporter
Jun 26, 2014 21:07:23 GMT
|
Post by moodyblue on Oct 31, 2017 23:28:06 GMT
This description of the culture you are talking about kind of horrifies me. The whole trust and respect and obey your elders thing even though you are adults with your own children and making your own life choices? How long do you have to live your life to please others? Until you get lucky & you reach a generation where the cycle can be broken, truthfully. The OP has a great a chance to break it when her daughter is an adult; it's too late to change it with the grandparents' generation though. I know you all think I'm crazy and/or exaggerating. I promise you, I'm not. If you've never lived it, you will NEVER understand. To the in-laws friends, the in-laws are the heads of the family. Paigepea & her dh will always be subordinate, as long as they're alive. They truly will hurt the inlaws if they don't back down & just do the party the way they want. Heck, I'm surprised the MIL didn't take the initiative to start planning the party to begin with... just the fact that it was the OP saying to them, give us your list of X number of people, as opposed to the other way around, is progress! I'm serious. I have had cultural peers/acquaintances (meaning - these aren't my friends, they're just people I know from the same culture) unable to invite their close friends to their weddings, etc, because of all the people they had to invite to meet their parent's/the extended family's social obligations. As in, "If you only want 200 people at your wedding, give me your list of 50.' The two sets of parents split the remaining 150. And letting the couple in question choose the total number of guests is, in itself, being generous in some extremes. My family isn't wealthy/high status enough to have gone that far, though. But they have connections with people who are at that level... like, in my culture, 250 guests is considered a small wedding. Under 100? We call that a 'private ceremony.' That would all be a "No" from me. I spent too many years as a people pleaser as a kid; it's a horrible way to live and I grew out of that. I would be that terrible person who would break those traditions as an adult. No way would I be waiting until all the "elders" were gone to drop the expectations. You only get one life and not living it the way you want is a sad thing to me.
|
|
|
Post by 950nancy on Oct 31, 2017 23:31:36 GMT
This description of the culture you are talking about kind of horrifies me. The whole trust and respect and obey your elders thing even though you are adults with your own children and making your own life choices? How long do you have to live your life to please others? Until you get lucky & you reach a generation where the cycle can be broken, truthfully. The OP has a great a chance to break it when her daughter is an adult; it's too late to change it with the grandparents' generation though. I know you all think I'm crazy and/or exaggerating. I promise you, I'm not. If you've never lived it, you will NEVER understand. To the in-laws friends, the in-laws are the heads of the family. Paigepea & her dh will always be subordinate, as long as they're alive. They truly will hurt the inlaws if they don't back down & just do the party the way they want. Heck, I'm surprised the MIL didn't take the initiative to start planning the party to begin with... just the fact that it was the OP saying to them, give us your list of X number of people, as opposed to the other way around, is progress! I'm serious. I have had cultural peers/acquaintances (meaning - these aren't my friends, they're just people I know from the same culture) unable to invite their close friends to their weddings, etc, because of all the people they had to invite to meet their parent's/the extended family's social obligations. As in, "If you only want 200 people at your wedding, give me your list of 50.' The two sets of parents split the remaining 150. And letting the couple in question choose the total number of guests is, in itself, being generous in some extremes. My family isn't wealthy/high status enough to have gone that far, though. But they have connections with people who are at that level... like, in my culture, 250 guests is considered a small wedding. Under 100? We call that a 'private ceremony.' I believe many of us are coming at this angle as a parent. We, as parents, owe our children better than this. I don't know if you have kids, but I don't think most of us would allow this treatment of our children. Not in the year 2017. While there might be a few people who live this way, I can't imagine it is the norm for most of us. Just because some cultures might act this way, it does not trump how you raise your child.
|
|
PaperAngel
Drama Llama
Posts: 7,342
Jun 27, 2014 23:04:06 GMT
|
Post by PaperAngel on Nov 1, 2017 0:11:44 GMT
As an addendum to my initial post:
In all fairness, the OP & her husband INVITED the in-laws to participate/have a significant role in the party planning with an open ended request for names to add to the guest list. It seems disingenuous to now complain about the number of people the in-laws submitted, especially since the OP admittedly has a history of conflict/complaints about the in-laws & should have clearly communicated parameters to avoid this result.
While I agree tradition/community dynamics/generational expectations are a factor in this situation, I simultaneously reject the premise that hundreds of acquaintances of the OP's in-laws have been sitting on the edge of their seats awaiting an invitation to the bat mitzvah of OP's daughter, whom they've never met, as a condition to acknowledge the in-laws' existence at future social functions. The only way these acquaintances would even know the about the existence of the OP's daughter or this event honoring her is if the OP's in-laws told them...which they probably did (due to the OP & her husband's failure to communicate from the outset that the guest list the in-laws submitted may be edited). I suspect finding themselves now in the awkward position of having to explain to hundreds of people the reason they will not be formally invited after all, the inevitable embarrassment, & thought of possibility offending all these people is the source of the in-laws' frustration with the OP & her husband.
|
|
paigepea
Drama Llama
Enter your message here...
Posts: 5,609
Location: BC, Canada
Jun 26, 2014 4:28:55 GMT
|
Post by paigepea on Nov 1, 2017 0:35:04 GMT
They feel like any who isn’t invited will hate them forever. Yep- there you have it! The real answer is they feel like their friends will hate them forever if they aren't invited. They do NOT want their friends to hate them forever. They are indeed trying to save a face or a relationship. Now, you can address that you are indeed sorry that they are in this position as you NEVER intended for THEM to be hated forever (welcome back to Jr. High!). That you will be doing what is best for YOUR daughter and that if they could please tell their friends that you do not know that it all YOUR fault then your in-laws will not be hated forever. Would you really want to be hated forever? It doesn't really matter if this is real or perceived (my guess is perceived). They feel this way. They aren't doing this to piss you off or be passive aggressive jerks they are worried they are going to be hated forever. Sorry you have to be the heavy in this situation. It sucks and good boundaries with a heavy dose of empathy will help for your daughters graduation and wedding. I'm really not on the side of your in-laws. But I do believe you are all being very poor communicators. Of course their friends won’t hate them forever. The dramatic response is difficult to cope with. Even my daughter seems more mature. We’ve tried to communicate respectfully but they didn’t seem to hear. And now they’ve disliked what we said and will hold it against us. It seems very immature.
|
|
paigepea
Drama Llama
Enter your message here...
Posts: 5,609
Location: BC, Canada
Jun 26, 2014 4:28:55 GMT
|
Post by paigepea on Nov 1, 2017 0:38:41 GMT
I disagree. Her DH gave them a number. That is pretty spanking clear. OP has talked with her ILs and they refuse to listen. I think we all understand what it's like to throw a party and have strangers come. OP - I am sorry. I hope you are getting mad and I hope you don't blame your DD either (you haven't said that you would, just hoping you don't). Think of how you talk to your teens and do the same thing to ILs. "John and Mary, I am sorry that we have had such a misunderstanding. We should not have asked you to come up with a list because it is clearly giving you a great deal of stress and that isn't fair. We are inviting the relatives, of course, and if you have [x] friends you'd like to invite, I will be happy to include them, regardless of whether or not we know them. [x] is our limit." The end. Do not listen, do not engage. When they give you a list that is [x+30], you say "John and Mary, I am taking the first [x] off the list." Then do NOT engage. You are DONE. Stop. Do not call. Do not explain. You are the parent and you need to be the parent for your child. Good luck! But they aren't inviting the number the DH gave them - they were intending to choose people off the list - unless I miss read the OPs comment I quoted above. I agree with you that when someone give you a number - that's pretty spanking clear - so I can understand why the ILs were confused. Dh didn’t give a number. He asked them to be mindful of dd and that fact that it was our party. When the list came back crazy he asked them to downscale. We expected 25 guests on the high end. Next time around they’ll have a number.
|
|
|
Post by andreasmom on Nov 1, 2017 0:53:25 GMT
This description of the culture you are talking about kind of horrifies me. The whole trust and respect and obey your elders thing even though you are adults with your own children and making your own life choices? How long do you have to live your life to please others? Until you get lucky & you reach a generation where the cycle can be broken, truthfully. The OP has a great a chance to break it when her daughter is an adult; it's too late to change it with the grandparents' generation though. I know you all think I'm crazy and/or exaggerating. I promise you, I'm not. If you've never lived it, you will NEVER understand. To the in-laws friends, the in-laws are the heads of the family. Paigepea & her dh will always be subordinate, as long as they're alive. They truly will hurt the inlaws if they don't back down & just do the party the way they want. Heck, I'm surprised the MIL didn't take the initiative to start planning the party to begin with... just the fact that it was the OP saying to them, give us your list of X number of people, as opposed to the other way around, is progress! I'm serious. I have had cultural peers/acquaintances (meaning - these aren't my friends, they're just people I know from the same culture) unable to invite their close friends to their weddings, etc, because of all the people they had to invite to meet their parent's/the extended family's social obligations. As in, "If you only want 200 people at your wedding, give me your list of 50.' The two sets of parents split the remaining 150. And letting the couple in question choose the total number of guests is, in itself, being generous in some extremes. My family isn't wealthy/high status enough to have gone that far, though. But they have connections with people who are at that level... like, in my culture, 250 guests is considered a small wedding. Under 100? We call that a 'private ceremony.' Yep. I broke the cycle. I moved away to another country. Boom. The come to the important ceremonies/milestones. Their friends, for obvious reasons, do not. They even wanted to celebrate twice (one in each country) so “everyone” could be there. Um, nope. Not happening. I’m all for a wedding reception and understand that, but two first communions, two birthday parties, two graduations? Nope.
|
|