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Post by refugeepea on Nov 12, 2017 17:52:11 GMT
Sometimes I think just the misunderstanding by some of a frequently used wording can twist it and give it negative power not intended. Toxic masculinity- I get the intended meaning and agree. Maybe when it gets misconstrued as 'men are toxic' by a loud minority, the backlash begins. I get that too. Same with 'feminism'-it gets misconstrued as women over men, not the true meaning of equality. It seems like it's all the back and forth, tit for tat, 'shouting' trying to make our points without trying to actually understand each other that gets us in trouble. The facts may say that the largest percentage of shootings are by men. That doesn't translate into the largest percentage of men are bad. They are not. But it still has to be looked at and something done about it. Or on another thread where it was said if you own a gun, you condone violence. To make a blanket statement like that is simply NOT true for every gun owner. I am FOR gun control, but when you make statements like this, that's when discussion stops.
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inkedup
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,837
Jun 26, 2014 5:00:26 GMT
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Post by inkedup on Nov 12, 2017 17:52:20 GMT
When women murder thheir children, it is often excused away with mental illness. For years, I have read about how poor Andrea Yates was mentally ill. I have read that it was her husband's fault. I have heard so many apologists for that monster since she made the choice to systematically drown her children. I think some of us find what she did so counter to a mother's nature that we want there to be an excuse. I have never heard that type of sympathy or blame shifting for mass shooters or for fathers who kill their children.
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Post by refugeepea on Nov 12, 2017 17:56:42 GMT
When women murder thheir children, it is often excused away with mental illness. For years, I have read about how poor Andrea Yates was mentally ill. I have read that it was her husband's fault. I have heard so many apologists for that monster since she made the choice to systematically drown her children. I think some of us find what she did so counter to a mother's nature that we want there to be an excuse. I have never heard that type of sympathy or blame shifting for mass shooters.
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Post by cindosha on Nov 12, 2017 17:58:46 GMT
Nothing pisses me off more than reading a family member saying "he was a protector", "he was not a bad man".
YES THE HELL HE WAS!!!! He killed his family including his innocent child and infant. Anyone who can point a gun at his own children and shoot them is not a "protector" or "not a bad man".
He absolutely is a bad man and I hope he rots in hell.
Cindy
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inkedup
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,837
Jun 26, 2014 5:00:26 GMT
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Post by inkedup on Nov 12, 2017 18:01:24 GMT
When women murder thheir children, it is often excused away with mental illness. For years, I have read about how poor Andrea Yates was mentally ill. I have read that it was her husband's fault. I have heard so many apologists for that monster since she made the choice to systematically drown her children. I think some of us find what she did so counter to a mother's nature that we want there to be an excuse. I have never heard that type of sympathy or blame shifting for mass shooters. Case in point. Sympathy for Andrea Yates and a thumbs down for me because I had the audacity to say that she is a monster, regardless of her mental illness. Her mental illness no more excuses the fact that she drowned her terrified children, than Adam Lanza's mental illness excuses Sandy Hook. Why such sympathy for one mass murderer and not the other? Most women will do less time in prison for filicide than for other crimes. I need to find the article i read that had some appalling stats in it.
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inkedup
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,837
Jun 26, 2014 5:00:26 GMT
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Post by inkedup on Nov 12, 2017 18:07:25 GMT
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Post by refugeepea on Nov 12, 2017 18:18:26 GMT
Case in point. Sympathy for Andrea Yates and a thumbs down for me because I had the audacity to say that she is a monster, regardless of her mental illness. Her mental illness no more excuses the fact that she drowned her terrified children, than Adam Lanza's mental illness excuses Sandy Hook. Why such sympathy for one mass murderer and not the other? Most women will do less time in prison for filicide than for other crimes. I need to find the article i read that had some appalling stats in it. No. I apparently misread your post. I read it as her "alleged" mental illness, as in you thought that was NOT a factor in what she did. Just like Adam Lanza killing children.
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Post by crimsoncat05 on Nov 12, 2017 18:18:31 GMT
So I should know better than to wade into this...but as the mother of two boys, here I go. Sure I get it. Toxic man stuff. Some men are angry, and they take it out on the rest of the world. I also get that a good deal of violence in our world is perpetrated by what is seemingly these angry men. But...and here is where I should probably keep my big old fat mouth shut...to blame the violence on toxic masculinity is just too simplistic. WAY too simplistic and there are just too many other factors to blame just 'man.' It is getting frustrating to me, as a mom, as a sister, as a daughter who knows that MY people are horrified by these acts of violence against innocents, against women to feel like I have to keep defending MY people against this almost toxic backlash against men in general. Yes. There are bad men. Just like there are bad women. And they ALL should be accountable. Although a lot of violence comes from males, I have to agree with this. I have never had a violent man in my life or known one. The first sign of that I would cut all ties with the individual. We all make choices about who we hook up with as friends, associates and lovers. I am not speaking of random, public violence. That is something no one can make choices about. I agree... We should be discussing toxic personalities....not toxic masculinity. and looking at the actual factors that went into the case. What led that person to feel so desperate that he thought THIS was his only recourse?
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Sept 21, 2024 0:48:01 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2017 18:38:25 GMT
Life is hard. I can't say why people kill their families. Poor coping skills, a lack of support and incredible stress is my best guess.
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Post by peasapie on Nov 12, 2017 19:05:38 GMT
I will admit I had to go look up the definition of toxic masculinity. Having done so, I don't think it fits this case.
People get anxious and depressed for a variety of reasons, including when they think their family will not be provided for. This seems more the case here than toxic masculinity.
From what I read, toxic masculinity has more to do with stereotypes and social confines, such as that men don't cry, that being interested in ones own appearance is not masculine, that real men aren't interested in parenting, and that men should be prepared to physically defend women.
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Post by jeremysgirl on Nov 12, 2017 19:07:26 GMT
I think there is a genetic component and there is a social component. We as women are far more likely to seek out others for support. We are far more likely to seek out mental health treatment and therapy. We are used to talking about our stresses and problems.
I have bipolar disorder. I have never been violent. The way I experience my disorder has never left me putting my hands on my children. Even when they were very young and I was unmedicated. Can I yell? Yes. Can I throw an incredible tantrum when I'm off kilter? I can. I once got so upset I threw an entire gallon of milk at my kitchen wall and milk went everywhere. This was before medication. I have extreme moments which for me feel out of control. But I have never felt violent. I wouldn't hurt anyone.
But my father clearly suffers from bipolar disorder. When I was a kid he was a very violent man. He did physically abuse me. My brother also suffered from bipolar disorder. He also got physical. Several times he assaulted me. My own son also has bipolar disorder. I have seen violent tendencies there too. He has put his hands on me. It is frightening. But all of these men in my life were quiet keep your problems to yourself types. None of them had a lot of friends for support. My dad and brother both opposed medication. And even though my son has visited three different therapists, I cannot get him to value therapy and there is an absolute refusal to seek this kind of help.
Men are different. I've experienced it myself. I am looking for solutions to the problem and I think that if we deny biological differences we aren't going to get anything productive out of our conversations. And I, for one, would value any kind of solution being offered. I fight this battle everyday. My son has many good qualities. He has many gifts. But could I see him being the type to shoot up his school? Yes I can and as a mother it terrifies me. I'm doing all I can but it's not enough. I want solutions. I want research. And I want a way to make sure my son never gets his hand on a gun.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Sept 21, 2024 0:48:01 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2017 21:11:01 GMT
Sometimes I think just the misunderstanding by some of a frequently used wording can twist it and give it negative power not intended. Toxic masculinity- I get the intended meaning and agree. Maybe when it gets misconstrued as 'men are toxic' by a loud minority, the backlash begins. I get that too. Same with 'feminism'-it gets misconstrued as women over men, not the true meaning of equality. It seems like it's all the back and forth, tit for tat, 'shouting' trying to make our points without trying to actually understand each other that gets us in trouble. The facts may say that the largest percentage of shootings are by men. That doesn't translate into the largest percentage of men are bad. They are not. But it still has to be looked at and something done about it. Or on another thread where it was said if you own a gun, you condone violence. To make a blanket statement like that is simply NOT true for every gun owner. I am FOR gun control, but when you make statements like this, that's when discussion stops. I've been saying that for a few years now.
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Nov 12, 2017 21:22:15 GMT
Too many seem to think "toxic masculinity" is synonymous with "male". They are very different things. But we have to get a handle on why so many men (vs. similar numbers of women) reach for a gun to solve their problems. Do you think if most murders and mass murders were committed by women, that wouldn't be a hugely funded effort in science to figure out "what's wrong that so many women (and not men) keep killing everybody"? NRA targeting them to make them feel powerful by having guns.
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Post by maryland on Nov 12, 2017 22:27:57 GMT
So I should know better than to wade into this...but as the mother of two boys, here I go. Sure I get it. Toxic man stuff. Some men are angry, and they take it out on the rest of the world. I also get that a good deal of violence in our world is perpetrated by what is seemingly these angry men. But...and here is where I should probably keep my big old fat mouth shut...to blame the violence on toxic masculinity is just too simplistic. WAY too simplistic and there are just too many other factors to blame just 'man.' It is getting frustrating to me, as a mom, as a sister, as a daughter who knows that MY people are horrified by these acts of violence against innocents, against women to feel like I have to keep defending MY people against this almost toxic backlash against men in general. Yes. There are bad men. Just like there are bad women. And they ALL should be accountable. Thank you for this. There was a thread the other day about not allowing a teenaged girl to ride in a car with a boy because essentially all boys are predators. (That is not what is said, but it was definitely the gist). Stereotyping is wrong, no matter whom is being stereotyped. All men are not bad. All women are not shrill bitches who hate sex. I feel sorry for people who have these attitudes about any group of people. I agree 100%! Thank you for saying this! And I have 3 girls. I feel sorry for people with those attitudes too about men or women.
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Post by maryland on Nov 12, 2017 22:36:24 GMT
Thank you for this. There was a thread the other day about not allowing a teenaged girl to ride in a car with a boy because essentially all boys are predators. (That is not what is said, but it was definitely the gist). Stereotyping is wrong, no matter whom is being stereotyped. All men are not bad. All women are not shrill bitches who hate sex. I feel sorry for people who have these attitudes about any group of people. I stayed away from that thread for that reason. It's the undercurrents...and it makes me horrifically sad for mom's of girls who feel that they have to think that way. I'll admit I am cranky today. I have had a bad weekend health wise and I have stuff to do and zero energy to do it. And blah blah blah. All equals to cranky and this thread may have just been my tipping point. This mom of girls doesn't think that at all! When our daughter was 17 and wasn't not very nice to a sweet boy that came over to ask her to Homecoming, it made my husband sad. He says we did not raise our girls to treat people disrespectfully. I would hope parents of boys wouldn't think our daughters would harm their sons and we would not assume that of boys. (off topic, but another pet peeve of mine is when you hear boys/men need to treat girls/women with respect. Wouldn't you just teach respect and keep the gender out of it? My husband and I were both taught to respect others, and gender had nothing to do with it. Sorry, I guess I am moody today too! I hate it getting dark out so early!)
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auntviv
Junior Member
Posts: 96
Jul 9, 2016 0:49:19 GMT
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Post by auntviv on Nov 12, 2017 22:47:35 GMT
I stayed away from that thread for that reason. It's the undercurrents...and it makes me horrifically sad for mom's of girls who feel that they have to think that way. I'll admit I am cranky today. I have had a bad weekend health wise and I have stuff to do and zero energy to do it. And blah blah blah. All equals to cranky and this thread may have just been my tipping point. This mom of girls doesn't think that at all! When our daughter was 17 and wasn't not very nice to a sweet boy that came over to ask her to Homecoming, it made my husband sad. He says we did not raise our girls to treat people disrespectfully. I would hope parents of boys wouldn't think our daughters would harm their sons and we would not assume that of boys. (off topic, but another pet peeve of mine is when you hear boys/men need to treat girls/women with respect. Wouldn't you just teach respect and keep the gender out of it? My husband and I were both taught to respect others, and gender had nothing to do with it. Sorry, I guess I am moody today too! I hate it getting dark out so early!) I'm confused are you saying your dd should have went out with him just because he asked and in your opinion was sweet? Shouldn't your dd get a say in who she goes out with? My dd doesn't have to be nice to boys, she does have to be polite but just because someone asks her out doesn't mean she has to go.
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scrappinmama
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,009
Jun 26, 2014 12:54:09 GMT
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Post by scrappinmama on Nov 12, 2017 22:49:33 GMT
I'm married to one of the most kind-hearted people that I know and he is a man. I have two very kind sons. But there is no denying the fact that men are more prone to act out violently than women. Look at the statistics.
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Post by maryland on Nov 12, 2017 22:55:34 GMT
This mom of girls doesn't think that at all! When our daughter was 17 and wasn't not very nice to a sweet boy that came over to ask her to Homecoming, it made my husband sad. He says we did not raise our girls to treat people disrespectfully. I would hope parents of boys wouldn't think our daughters would harm their sons and we would not assume that of boys. (off topic, but another pet peeve of mine is when you hear boys/men need to treat girls/women with respect. Wouldn't you just teach respect and keep the gender out of it? My husband and I were both taught to respect others, and gender had nothing to do with it. Sorry, I guess I am moody today too! I hate it getting dark out so early!) I'm confused are you saying your dd should have went out with him just because he asked and in your opinion was sweet? Shouldn't your dd get a say in who she goes out with? My dd doesn't have to be nice to boys, she does have to be polite but just because someone asks her out doesn't mean she has to go. No, of course she doesn't have to go out with him just as a boy shouldn't be forced to go out with a girl! We expect her to be polite. Her brought her over a pizza to ask her and she took it and said she would go with him and shut the door in his face. Then she threw the pizza away. Then she ditched him at the dance. She should have politely told her she had other plans. And if a boy does not want to go out with our daughter, that is fine too, I would hope he would be polite about it. That was a few years ago and my daughter feels bad about the way she treated him. I will delete my post if it leads to such misunderstanding. You made me sad when I read your reply.
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azredhead
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,755
Jun 25, 2014 22:49:18 GMT
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Post by azredhead on Nov 12, 2017 23:16:13 GMT
So I should know better than to wade into this...but as the mother of two boys, here I go. Sure I get it. Toxic man stuff. Some men are angry, and they take it out on the rest of the world. I also get that a good deal of violence in our world is perpetrated by what is seemingly these angry men. But...and here is where I should probably keep my big old fat mouth shut...to blame the violence on toxic masculinity is just too simplistic. WAY too simplistic and there are just too many other factors to blame just 'man.' It is getting frustrating to me, as a mom, as a sister, as a daughter who knows that MY people are horrified by these acts of violence against innocents, against women to feel like I have to keep defending MY people against this almost toxic backlash against men in general. Yes. There are bad men. Just like there are bad women. And they ALL should be accountable. Although a lot of violence comes from males, I have to agree with this. I have never had a violent man in my life or known one. The first sign of that I would cut all ties with the individual. We all make choices about who we hook up with as friends, associates and lovers. I am not speaking of random, public violence. That is something no one can make choices about. Totally agree with both. Grew up with angry men and woman. Both toxic and horrible another just in a bad position. Happens too much .Aside that a woman and a man drove a family into the Tempe Town Lake a few years. Heartbreaking. It happens.
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inkedup
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,837
Jun 26, 2014 5:00:26 GMT
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Post by inkedup on Nov 13, 2017 1:37:56 GMT
I'm confused are you saying your dd should have went out with him just because he asked and in your opinion was sweet? Shouldn't your dd get a say in who she goes out with? My dd doesn't have to be nice to boys, she does have to be polite but just because someone asks her out doesn't mean she has to go. No, of course she doesn't have to go out with him just as a boy shouldn't be forced to go out with a girl! We expect her to be polite. Her brought her over a pizza to ask her and she took it and said she would go with him and shut the door in his face. Then she threw the pizza away. Then she ditched him at the dance. She should have politely told her she had other plans. And if a boy does not want to go out with our daughter, that is fine too, I would hope he would be polite about it. That was a few years ago and my daughter feels bad about the way she treated him. I will delete my post if it leads to such misunderstanding. You made me sad when I read your reply. I understood what you were saying and was puzzled by the way auntviv responded to your post.
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Post by gryroagain on Nov 13, 2017 5:15:00 GMT
I'm married to one of the most kind-hearted people that I know and he is a man. I have two very kind sons. But there is no denying the fact that men are more prone to act out violently than women. Look at the statistics. Thank you for this, it is where I and my kind husband are at. The statistics don't lie. While women do kill and abuse, it is not anywhere close to the level men do. If this makes you uncomfortable, it should. If it makes you defensive, you may want to unpack that.
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Post by maryland on Nov 13, 2017 12:37:05 GMT
No, of course she doesn't have to go out with him just as a boy shouldn't be forced to go out with a girl! We expect her to be polite. Her brought her over a pizza to ask her and she took it and said she would go with him and shut the door in his face. Then she threw the pizza away. Then she ditched him at the dance. She should have politely told her she had other plans. And if a boy does not want to go out with our daughter, that is fine too, I would hope he would be polite about it. That was a few years ago and my daughter feels bad about the way she treated him. I will delete my post if it leads to such misunderstanding. You made me sad when I read your reply. I understood what you were saying and was puzzled by the way auntviv responded to your post. Thank you! I thought I was clear, but I guess I wasn't. I appreciate your support! I thought I was doing the right thing by teaching my children to be kind, but I guess because they are girls, some think they shouldn't have to be kind? I guess I don't always explain myself well in posts. It's much easier talking to people in person. Thanks for understanding, you made me happy this morning!
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Post by freecharlie on Nov 13, 2017 13:54:20 GMT
since many of them also kill themselves, the why will elude and since the why is different for each person it will never be able to be known. There have been many studies on the why of suicide and there is still no way to predict. I dont buy the toxic masculinity stuff. It rubs me the wrong way. Some people are just assholes and some people just snap
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Post by crazy4scraps on Nov 13, 2017 14:54:08 GMT
I understood what you were saying and was puzzled by the way auntviv responded to your post. Thank you! I thought I was clear, but I guess I wasn't. I appreciate your support! I thought I was doing the right thing by teaching my children to be kind, but I guess because they are girls, some think they shouldn't have to be kind? I guess I don't always explain myself well in posts. It's much easier talking to people in person. Thanks for understanding, you made me happy this morning! I completely understood what you were saying too, so I don’t think your post was unclear. And I agree with you 100% that we should be teaching our kids to be polite and kind to everyone regardless of gender. When they say or do something that could be hurtful, get them to immediately stop and think about their words and actions, and how could they make their point in another way?
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pudgygroundhog
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,648
Location: The Grand Canyon
Jun 25, 2014 20:18:39 GMT
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Post by pudgygroundhog on Nov 13, 2017 14:57:16 GMT
I'm married to one of the most kind-hearted people that I know and he is a man. I have two very kind sons. But there is no denying the fact that men are more prone to act out violently than women. Look at the statistics. Yes! I see this trend today where we have to make both sides equal (aka "Just as many women as killers") and I think it's dangerous because it's a deflection from real problems. Of course I know many wonderful men - but that is anecdotal and the statistics speak otherwise.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Sept 21, 2024 0:48:01 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2017 14:59:18 GMT
Thank you! I thought I was clear, but I guess I wasn't. I appreciate your support! I thought I was doing the right thing by teaching my children to be kind, but I guess because they are girls, some think they shouldn't have to be kind? I guess I don't always explain myself well in posts. It's much easier talking to people in person. Thanks for understanding, you made me happy this morning! I completely understood what you were saying too, so I don’t think your post was unclear. And I agree with you 100% that we should be teaching our kids to be polite and kind to everyone regardless of gender. When they say or do something that could be hurtful, get them to immediately stop and think about their words and actions, and how could they make their point in another way? It sets my teeth on edge every time I hear someone say "I taught my boys to be respectful of girls". Why!?!?!?! Why didn't you teach your CHILDREN (gender irrelevant) to be respectful of OTHER PEOPLE (gender irrelevant).
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Post by missbennet on Nov 13, 2017 15:08:14 GMT
I noticed someone said "stereotyping" and I think we conflate that sometimes with "pattern recognition" which is a very useful thing. Also, we tend to remember potentially dangerous patterns much more vividly than boring patterns. It may take me awhile to notice the barista always assumes I want non-fat milk, but I picked up very quickly that a group of boisterous males at night on a deserted street is something to avoid.
Society seems to react now to pattern recognition as unfair stereotyping, and as pudgygroundhog said, people seem to think that any observation must be fairly balanced with a similar observation about other groups.
I also agree though that even if men are more likely to murder, it's not random and inexplicable - the people who do that were violent and escalating for a long time before they killed their families, in most cases. Families' denials are just revisionist history and wishful thinking.
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Post by maryland on Nov 13, 2017 15:19:32 GMT
Thank you! I thought I was clear, but I guess I wasn't. I appreciate your support! I thought I was doing the right thing by teaching my children to be kind, but I guess because they are girls, some think they shouldn't have to be kind? I guess I don't always explain myself well in posts. It's much easier talking to people in person. Thanks for understanding, you made me happy this morning! I completely understood what you were saying too, so I don’t think your post was unclear. And I agree with you 100% that we should be teaching our kids to be polite and kind to everyone regardless of gender. When they say or do something that could be hurtful, get them to immediately stop and think about their words and actions, and how could they make their point in another way? Thank you!
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Post by maryland on Nov 13, 2017 15:25:13 GMT
I completely understood what you were saying too, so I don’t think your post was unclear. And I agree with you 100% that we should be teaching our kids to be polite and kind to everyone regardless of gender. When they say or do something that could be hurtful, get them to immediately stop and think about their words and actions, and how could they make their point in another way? It sets my teeth on edge every time I hear someone say "I taught my boys to be respectful of girls". Why!?!?!?! Why didn't you teach your CHILDREN (gender irrelevant) to be respectful of OTHER PEOPLE (gender irrelevant). Yes, yes, yes! That's one of my biggest pet peeves too!
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auntviv
Junior Member
Posts: 96
Jul 9, 2016 0:49:19 GMT
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Post by auntviv on Nov 14, 2017 2:18:21 GMT
I'm confused are you saying your dd should have went out with him just because he asked and in your opinion was sweet? Shouldn't your dd get a say in who she goes out with? My dd doesn't have to be nice to boys, she does have to be polite but just because someone asks her out doesn't mean she has to go. No, of course she doesn't have to go out with him just as a boy shouldn't be forced to go out with a girl! We expect her to be polite. Her brought her over a pizza to ask her and she took it and said she would go with him and shut the door in his face. Then she threw the pizza away. Then she ditched him at the dance. She should have politely told her she had other plans. And if a boy does not want to go out with our daughter, that is fine too, I would hope he would be polite about it. That was a few years ago and my daughter feels bad about the way she treated him. I will delete my post if it leads to such misunderstanding. You made me sad when I read your reply. You didn't say all that all you said was "This mom of girls doesn't think that at all! When our daughter was 17 and wasn't not very nice to a sweet boy that came over to ask her to Homecoming, it made my husband sad." It sounded more like she turned a guy down for a date. Some people take niceness as interest and you have to be abrupt with them or they won't get the hint. Sometimes it seems like there is this expectation that girls have to always be nice, to never hurt the boys feelings and it can lead to girls not knowing how to respond when the nice sweet boy wants to take things further than the girl would like to go. I just don't think girls should be taught to be nice all the time. Polite and respectful yes but that is not the same thing as being nice.
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