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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2017 15:21:30 GMT
to die. "Jason Fairbanks, 39, shot and killed his wife, Annie Fairbanks, 39, as well as his daughter, 3, and son, 9 months, before turning the gun on himself. The Fairbanks family resided in a 'two-story stucco home in a quiet upper-middle-class neighborhood,' according to a report by the local Arizona Central." www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5073799/Four-confirmed-dead-Arizona-domestic-murder-suicide.html?ito=social-twitter_dailymailusToxic masculinity.
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Post by Woobster on Nov 12, 2017 15:35:31 GMT
Those poor, beautiful children...
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Post by anxiousmom on Nov 12, 2017 15:39:28 GMT
So I should know better than to wade into this...but as the mother of two boys, here I go.
Sure I get it. Toxic man stuff. Some men are angry, and they take it out on the rest of the world. I also get that a good deal of violence in our world is perpetrated by what is seemingly these angry men.
But...and here is where I should probably keep my big old fat mouth shut...to blame the violence on toxic masculinity is just too simplistic. WAY too simplistic and there are just too many other factors to blame just 'man.' It is getting frustrating to me, as a mom, as a sister, as a daughter who knows that MY people are horrified by these acts of violence against innocents, against women to feel like I have to keep defending MY people against this almost toxic backlash against men in general.
Yes. There are bad men. Just like there are bad women. And they ALL should be accountable.
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Post by femalebusiness on Nov 12, 2017 15:53:10 GMT
So I should know better than to wade into this...but as the mother of two boys, here I go. Sure I get it. Toxic man stuff. Some men are angry, and they take it out on the rest of the world. I also get that a good deal of violence in our world is perpetrated by what is seemingly these angry men. But...and here is where I should probably keep my big old fat mouth shut...to blame the violence on toxic masculinity is just too simplistic. WAY too simplistic and there are just too many other factors to blame just 'man.' It is getting frustrating to me, as a mom, as a sister, as a daughter who knows that MY people are horrified by these acts of violence against innocents, against women to feel like I have to keep defending MY people against this almost toxic backlash against men in general. Yes. There are bad men. Just like there are bad women. And they ALL should be accountable. Although a lot of violence comes from males, I have to agree with this. I have never had a violent man in my life or known one. The first sign of that I would cut all ties with the individual. We all make choices about who we hook up with as friends, associates and lovers. I am not speaking of random, public violence. That is something no one can make choices about.
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Post by anonrefugee on Nov 12, 2017 15:56:07 GMT
So I should know better than to wade into this...but as the mother of two boys, here I go. Sure I get it. Toxic man stuff. Some men are angry, and they take it out on the rest of the world. I also get that a good deal of violence in our world is perpetrated by what is seemingly these angry men. But...and here is where I should probably keep my big old fat mouth shut...to blame the violence on toxic masculinity is just too simplistic. WAY too simplistic and there are just too many other factors to blame just 'man.' It is getting frustrating to me, as a mom, as a sister, as a daughter who knows that MY people are horrified by these acts of violence against innocents, against women to feel like I have to keep defending MY people against this almost toxic backlash against men in general. Yes. There are bad men. Just like there are bad women. And they ALL should be accountable. I agree with you, and not just because I have sons or am surrounded by decent, kind, men with integrity. There obviously is a problem with some masculine culture, but we need to be careful in our labels. This guy represents general manhood no more than Andrea Yates represents all mothers and feminine culture.
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Post by maryland on Nov 12, 2017 15:56:48 GMT
So I should know better than to wade into this...but as the mother of two boys, here I go. Sure I get it. Toxic man stuff. Some men are angry, and they take it out on the rest of the world. I also get that a good deal of violence in our world is perpetrated by what is seemingly these angry men. But...and here is where I should probably keep my big old fat mouth shut...to blame the violence on toxic masculinity is just too simplistic. WAY too simplistic and there are just too many other factors to blame just 'man.' It is getting frustrating to me, as a mom, as a sister, as a daughter who knows that MY people are horrified by these acts of violence against innocents, against women to feel like I have to keep defending MY people against this almost toxic backlash against men in general. Yes. There are bad men. Just like there are bad women. And they ALL should be accountable. I agree!
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Post by lisacharlotte on Nov 12, 2017 15:57:19 GMT
According to some people I suppose I should apologize for birthing a boy. All these toxic men were obviously raised by men only.
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Deleted
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Sept 21, 2024 0:44:42 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2017 16:01:05 GMT
So I should know better than to wade into this...but as the mother of two boys, here I go. Sure I get it. Toxic man stuff. Some men are angry, and they take it out on the rest of the world. I also get that a good deal of violence in our world is perpetrated by what is seemingly these angry men. But...and here is where I should probably keep my big old fat mouth shut...to blame the violence on toxic masculinity is just too simplistic. WAY too simplistic and there are just too many other factors to blame just 'man.' It is getting frustrating to me, as a mom, as a sister, as a daughter who knows that MY people are horrified by these acts of violence against innocents, against women to feel like I have to keep defending MY people against this almost toxic backlash against men in general. Yes. There are bad men. Just like there are bad women. And they ALL should be accountable. I agree with you, and not just because I have sons or am surrounded by decent, kind, men with integrity. There obviously is a problem with some masculine culture, but we need to be careful in our labels. This guy represents general manhood no more than Andrea Yates represents all mothers and feminine culture. The point is never "all sides". It is HOW MUCH ON EACH SIDE. How many Andrea Yates are there? How many men who kill their wives, ex-wives, girlfriends, ex-girlfriends, and children? That is the question. mic.com/articles/185866/domestic-violence-is-a-link-among-most-mass-shooters-but-america-continues-to-ignore-it
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Post by supersoda on Nov 12, 2017 16:01:17 GMT
It's not just men. Just last week a woman here killed her two daughters.
I'm a hard-core feminist and mom of 3 girls. I think gender-bashing hurts our cause. What happened is terrible, and we should focus on the terribleness and the underlying causes--not stereotyping an entire gender.
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Deleted
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Sept 21, 2024 0:44:42 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2017 16:03:53 GMT
Too many seem to think "toxic masculinity" is synonymous with "male".
They are very different things.
But we have to get a handle on why so many men (vs. similar numbers of women) reach for a gun to solve their problems.
Do you think if most murders and mass murders were committed by women, that wouldn't be a hugely funded effort in science to figure out "what's wrong that so many women (and not men) keep killing everybody"?
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Post by maryland on Nov 12, 2017 16:04:49 GMT
So I should know better than to wade into this...but as the mother of two boys, here I go. Sure I get it. Toxic man stuff. Some men are angry, and they take it out on the rest of the world. I also get that a good deal of violence in our world is perpetrated by what is seemingly these angry men. But...and here is where I should probably keep my big old fat mouth shut...to blame the violence on toxic masculinity is just too simplistic. WAY too simplistic and there are just too many other factors to blame just 'man.' It is getting frustrating to me, as a mom, as a sister, as a daughter who knows that MY people are horrified by these acts of violence against innocents, against women to feel like I have to keep defending MY people against this almost toxic backlash against men in general. Yes. There are bad men. Just like there are bad women. And they ALL should be accountable. Although a lot of violence comes from males, I have to agree with this. I have never had a violent man in my life or known one. The first sign of that I would cut all ties with the individual. We all make choices about who we hook up with as friends, associates and lovers. I am not speaking of random, public violence. That is something no one can make choices about. I too have never had a violent man in my life. Just out of law school I worked in an office with all men and they were wonderful! I have had a couple emotionally abusive women in my life though, but I still know that they are the exception, not the norm.
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Post by maryland on Nov 12, 2017 16:07:35 GMT
It's not just men. Just last week a woman here killed her two daughters. I'm a hard-core feminist and mom of 3 girls. I think gender-bashing hurts our cause. What happened is terrible, and we should focus on the terribleness and the underlying causes--not stereotyping an entire gender. Me too! I am also the mother of 3 girls and I find myself defending boys often.
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Post by supersoda on Nov 12, 2017 16:09:30 GMT
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2017 16:11:11 GMT
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Post by anxiousmom on Nov 12, 2017 16:18:16 GMT
Too many seem to think "toxic masculinity" is synonymous with "male". They are very different things. But we have to get a handle on why so many men (vs. similar numbers of women) reach for a gun to solve their problems. Do you think if most murders and mass murders were committed by women, that wouldn't be a hugely funded effort in science to figure out "what's wrong that so many women (and not men) keep killing everybody"? No, we don't. What I react to, as do many others, is the implication that many of the reports that toxic masculinity and male are the same. We are being deliberately obtuse, we are being willfully ignorant, we aren't being ... too stupid to understand. We get it, but we are also are seeing the undercurrents of 'man is bad' when we know that isn't the case. I speak only for myself here, but it feels SO condescending when someone tries to 'explain' to me what I am obviously not understanding when I have some fairly decent critical reasoning skills-just a different view point. Men reach for guns, women reach for other weapons and do just as much damage.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2017 16:20:44 GMT
Men reach for guns, women reach for other weapons and do just as much damage. How are you sourcing the "do just as much damage" part? For example, the post above about filicide showed a 57-42 split between men and women when it comes to killing their own kids. That's very specific because it doesn't include killing the parent of the child also (so it includes deaths to children based on overly violent punishment, etc.) or killing strangers, etc, but at least it's data. What is your source for the "do just as much damage" claim?
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katybee
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,447
Jun 25, 2014 23:25:39 GMT
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Post by katybee on Nov 12, 2017 16:22:53 GMT
Of course there are good men. Lots of them. Most of the men I know would never be violent. But why can't we be honest with ourselves and ask some hard questions? Why are 90.5% of people who commit homicide male? Why are 98.9% of forcible rapes committed by men? Why do men commit 79.7% of violence against family and children? Why do they commit 98% of mass shootings? I think we, as a society CAN and need to address these questions. And it doesn't mean we're gender bashing. But we can no longer continue to deny/ignore it. ETA: Source www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdfSent from my iPad
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katybee
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,447
Jun 25, 2014 23:25:39 GMT
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Post by katybee on Nov 12, 2017 16:25:32 GMT
Men reach for guns, women reach for other weapons and do just as much damage. That's simply NOT true.
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Post by anxiousmom on Nov 12, 2017 16:25:35 GMT
Men reach for guns, women reach for other weapons and do just as much damage. How are you sourcing the "do just as much damage" part? Obviously I am not, otherwise I would post links. I am going to claim old lady status on this one and call my source life experience.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2017 16:30:06 GMT
Men reach for guns, women reach for other weapons and do just as much damage. That's simply NOT true.
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Post by Drew on Nov 12, 2017 16:30:32 GMT
I think there's some validity in the toxic masculinity claim. When times get tough, you downsize or move in with parents, both spouses go to work, you call on family to help, get public assistance... There are options. He decided for all of them, to disregard all of the options. You don't often see women wiping out their families because they're broke
The sister says he's not a bad guy and he was a protector. She's right... He's not a bad guy, he's the worst kind of guy and it turns out that his family needed protection FROM him. It was not his job to decide their futures... And I think toxic masculinity may have played a part here.
I don't even know what I think about an afterlife or if there is one, but I hope that woman is with her babies.
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Post by littlemama on Nov 12, 2017 17:20:29 GMT
So I should know better than to wade into this...but as the mother of two boys, here I go. Sure I get it. Toxic man stuff. Some men are angry, and they take it out on the rest of the world. I also get that a good deal of violence in our world is perpetrated by what is seemingly these angry men. But...and here is where I should probably keep my big old fat mouth shut...to blame the violence on toxic masculinity is just too simplistic. WAY too simplistic and there are just too many other factors to blame just 'man.' It is getting frustrating to me, as a mom, as a sister, as a daughter who knows that MY people are horrified by these acts of violence against innocents, against women to feel like I have to keep defending MY people against this almost toxic backlash against men in general. Yes. There are bad men. Just like there are bad women. And they ALL should be accountable. Thank you for this. There was a thread the other day about not allowing a teenaged girl to ride in a car with a boy because essentially all boys are predators. (That is not what is said, but it was definitely the gist). Stereotyping is wrong, no matter whom is being stereotyped. All men are not bad. All women are not shrill bitches who hate sex. I feel sorry for people who have these attitudes about any group of people.
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zookeeper
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,909
Aug 28, 2014 2:37:56 GMT
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Post by zookeeper on Nov 12, 2017 17:24:15 GMT
This guy represents general manhood no more than Andrea Yates represents all mothers and feminine culture. This is perfect. I am sick and tired of man blaming when woman are capable of violence as well. Do we as women want to lumped in with the women who kill their babies? We should be discussing toxic personalities....not toxic masculinity.
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zookeeper
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,909
Aug 28, 2014 2:37:56 GMT
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Post by zookeeper on Nov 12, 2017 17:25:11 GMT
I think gender-bashing hurts our cause. What happened is terrible, and we should focus on the terribleness and the underlying causes--not stereotyping an entire gender. More perfectly said words.
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Deleted
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Sept 21, 2024 0:44:42 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2017 17:26:23 GMT
It seems like people aren't reading the posts. Just more "not all men" posts.
Yes. Again and again. That is not the point.
The point is not "all men" are bad.
Read the stats.
Think about how this keeps happening TOO MUCH TOO OFTEN.
Then think about what we can do to prevent it.
Instead of rushing to the "not all men" captain-obvious posts.
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Post by anxiousmom on Nov 12, 2017 17:28:18 GMT
So I should know better than to wade into this...but as the mother of two boys, here I go. Sure I get it. Toxic man stuff. Some men are angry, and they take it out on the rest of the world. I also get that a good deal of violence in our world is perpetrated by what is seemingly these angry men. But...and here is where I should probably keep my big old fat mouth shut...to blame the violence on toxic masculinity is just too simplistic. WAY too simplistic and there are just too many other factors to blame just 'man.' It is getting frustrating to me, as a mom, as a sister, as a daughter who knows that MY people are horrified by these acts of violence against innocents, against women to feel like I have to keep defending MY people against this almost toxic backlash against men in general. Yes. There are bad men. Just like there are bad women. And they ALL should be accountable. Thank you for this. There was a thread the other day about not allowing a teenaged girl to ride in a car with a boy because essentially all boys are predators. (That is not what is said, but it was definitely the gist). Stereotyping is wrong, no matter whom is being stereotyped. All men are not bad. All women are not shrill bitches who hate sex. I feel sorry for people who have these attitudes about any group of people. I stayed away from that thread for that reason. It's the undercurrents...and it makes me horrifically sad for mom's of girls who feel that they have to think that way. I'll admit I am cranky today. I have had a bad weekend health wise and I have stuff to do and zero energy to do it. And blah blah blah. All equals to cranky and this thread may have just been my tipping point.
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PLurker
Prolific Pea
Posts: 9,790
Location: Behind the Cheddar Curtain
Jun 28, 2014 3:48:49 GMT
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Post by PLurker on Nov 12, 2017 17:40:23 GMT
Sometimes I think just the misunderstanding by some of a frequently used wording can twist it and give it negative power not intended.
Toxic masculinity- I get the intended meaning and agree. Maybe when it gets misconstrued as 'men are toxic' by a loud minority, the backlash begins. I get that too.
Same with 'feminism'-it gets misconstrued as women over men, not the true meaning of equality.
It seems like it's all the back and forth, tit for tat, 'shouting' trying to make our points without trying to actually understand each other that gets us in trouble.
The facts may say that the largest percentage of shootings are by men. That doesn't translate into the largest percentage of men are bad. They are not.
But it still has to be looked at and something done about it.
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marimoose
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,282
Jul 22, 2014 2:10:14 GMT
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Post by marimoose on Nov 12, 2017 17:41:25 GMT
I think there's some validity in the toxic masculinity claim. When times get tough, you downsize or move in with parents, both spouses go to work, you call on family to help, get public assistance... There are options. He decided for all of them, to disregard all of the options. You don't often see women wiping out their families because they're broke The sister says he's not a bad guy and he was a protector. She's right... He's not a bad guy, he's the worst kind of guy and it turns out that his family needed protection FROM him. It was not his job to decide their futures... And I think toxic masculinity may have played a part here. I don't even know what I think about an afterlife or if there is one, but I hope that woman is with her babies. I think this is a horrific story to read - so very sad BUT I will play devil's advocate for a moment, not that it is my opinion. We are all assuming that this man is a monster who made this decision on his own but without more information or having been there, how do we know that maybe this is what these two desperate people decided on together because of their financial situation. Maybe she joined him in thinking this was the best or only solution - which clearly it was not. It saddens me that people sometimes see this as the only viable option. All I am saying is maybe he isn't the monster. What would we be thinking if SHE had wielded the gun instead of her husband. Why do we assume it is toxic masculinity? I feel terrible for their family members they leave behind who are likely left wondering what they could have done to prevent this. Not their fault but I know this is how I would feel. Just sad, sad situation for all.
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Post by anxiousmom on Nov 12, 2017 17:44:17 GMT
It seems like people aren't reading the posts. Just more "not all men" posts. Yes. Again and again. That is not the point. The point is not "all men" are bad. Read the stats. Think about how this keeps happening TOO MUCH TOO OFTEN. Then think about what we can do to prevent it. Instead of rushing to the "not all men" captain-obvious posts. But I think the point that is being missed is that there is a reason for the 'captain-obvious' posts. There are more than a few of us that are seeing a very different side to the argument and aren't being heard AT all. What is happening TOO MUCH TOO OFTEN is violence in general. Not just men. Not just women. There is a degradation in respect for human life as a whole. And we (me) are tired of seeing all the stats pointing toward men rather than all violent offenders. And please, don't talk down to me. I know we don't always agree, and that is okay. Conversation is good, saying things like 'captain-obvious' is not a very good way to facilitate conversation. I may be a bit of a redneck hick, but I am an educated one and old enough to know that rather than preaching at someone, listening leads to better understanding. In that vein, I get it. Part of the issue is that there is also the recent horror of mass killings by men with guns that play a serious role in how people are feeling are right now. Which is highlighting the issue of toxic masculinity. But what some of us are trying to say is that yes, these things are beyond horrific. But so is the violence by a thousand cuts of women who kill and abuse their children (example) that is not part of the conversation because it is too easy to blame toxic masculinity right now.
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Post by refugeepea on Nov 12, 2017 17:48:42 GMT
Too many seem to think "toxic masculinity" is synonymous with "male". They are very different things. But we have to get a handle on why so many men (vs. similar numbers of women) reach for a gun to solve their problems. Do you think if most murders and mass murders were committed by women, that wouldn't be a hugely funded effort in science to figure out "what's wrong that so many women (and not men) keep killing everybody"? No, we don't. What I react to, as do many others, is the implication that many of the reports that toxic masculinity and male are the same. We are being deliberately obtuse, we are being willfully ignorant, we aren't being ... too stupid to understand. We get it, but we are also are seeing the undercurrents of 'man is bad' when we know that isn't the case. I speak only for myself here, but it feels SO condescending when someone tries to 'explain' to me what I am obviously not understanding when I have some fairly decent critical reasoning skills-just a different view point. Men reach for guns, women reach for other weapons and do just as much damage.
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