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Post by leftturnonly on Jan 29, 2019 19:47:31 GMT
If I were you I'd leave out any "feelings" when you text the pastor. Just say that you've decided to pick up your son on Friday night at XX time and that you'll bring him back on Saturday at XX time. He doesn't need an explanation. Your kid, your say-so. That is exactly what I just did. I just said my husband and I have decided to bring him home Fri night and back Sat morning, just let us know what time the retreat "ends" on Fri and begins again Sat morning. Hopefully he just respects my decision and doesn't try to call or text me to change my mind!!!! Don't be afraid to be direct here. This is an extremely important issue. Yes, additional protection has been put in place for the protection of every single individual involved in a Scout event -- which extends to simple meetings and not just overnights. Those who care about the children DO.NOT.MIND the additional measures. Likewise, neither should your church. One would hope that the church would be as concerned with the protection of all involved as Scouts are. If your pastor is somehow unaware or is just lax in practicing these practices, your church is being set up for a future lawsuit.
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Post by Basket1lady on Jan 29, 2019 20:16:58 GMT
Just tell him this fits your family plans better! Not in relation to your scenario but I am just curious - here anyone working/volunteering with children or vulnerable adults has to be screened beforehand. There are checks into the persons background to see if there are any criminal convictions, reasons why they may not be allowed to work with children etc. Is that the case in the US? In the Catholic Church, you need to get a criminal background check done (through the Church) before you can work with the youth. And this is done if you change dioceses. For both Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts, you get background checks, but I believe it’s more superficial and not a full blown criminal background check. But it’s been over 15 years since I had it done.
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Post by Bridget in MD on Jan 29, 2019 20:38:24 GMT
Just tell him this fits your family plans better! Not in relation to your scenario but I am just curious - here anyone working/volunteering with children or vulnerable adults has to be screened beforehand. There are checks into the persons background to see if there are any criminal convictions, reasons why they may not be allowed to work with children etc. Is that the case in the US?I think someone answered that it varies state by state. I'm not even sure if it's state or county. Here, to volunteer in the school system, I'd have to become a registered volunteer, which I believe included a background check. I am pretty sure that doesn't mean I was good to volunteer in the next county over tho. For Scouts, Girl Scouts are starting to crack down on background checks - it used to be just for those who were the leaders and who handled troop money. Now, it's pretty much anyone who comes in contact with the girls. What sucks is that you have to register ($25) and then pay an additional $8 for a background check (you can request financial aid) - and most people are not sure why the more comprehensive background check the schools are requiring doesn't count. Boy Scouts, the YPT is online and free, and it creates an account for you so you can print out a certificate - it's good for 2 yrs. I had no idea there was a youth program for churches, and will have to investigate that.
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Post by ladytrisha on Jan 29, 2019 21:59:35 GMT
I think you should explain to the Pastor that this is what was done in Scouting and it's done for a reason. Then see if you can find a solution using it as a guide.
Like you we had years of scouting with our son and the few times it wasn't followed had massive fall out (Scoutmaster removed from his post, a parent removed who was in charge of kids and didn't follow the rules - that went to headquarters).
If you can't find a solution, then drive your son back and forth.
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Post by ladytrisha on Jan 29, 2019 22:09:40 GMT
Not in relation to your scenario but I am just curious - here anyone working/volunteering with children or vulnerable adults has to be screened beforehand. There are checks into the persons background to see if there are any criminal convictions, reasons why they may not be allowed to work with children etc. Is that the case in the US? Our son's Scout Troop was sponsored by the Catholic church so we had to submit paperwork to the BSA (I was secretary of the Troop and my husband was Asst Scoutmaster) - that was one level checked. Then the Church started Virtus training - any adult that was going to be at the meetings with their sons had to attend it and also had to be fingerprinted. There was no wiggle room. BSA also had a program for the kids to watch - I think that created more problems as parents didn't want the younger kids to see too much so we ended up splitting it up. My son aged out in 2010 so I'm not sure how it's changed since then. We had a Scoutmaster drive a boy home without a buddy - total slip up - he was a goofball guy. Parents pulled out of our Troop and made a report to regional. Scoutmaster had to step down. Nice guy - but huge fail. When my husband tried to get a Venture Troop off the ground, one of the 2 Asst. Scoutmasters (women) took boys and girls out camping but let the boys stay away in a local camping area (big no no). Homeless people came thru middle of the night and scared the boys. One woman had been repeatedly warned about scoffing at the rules - this one went too far. It was a reminder that rules were created for safety for a reason. All it takes is one minor thing to create a shitstorm.
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Post by hennybutton on Jan 29, 2019 22:39:27 GMT
So, what are you afraid may happen? Seriously, be open here, because I truly do not get it. .................. Is your son older than the other kids? 13 seem to be older than I remember mine being in 6th grade. OP said 6th grade was last year. I'm a life-long Lutheran and all the churches I've attended have two years of confirmation classes in 7th and 8th grades. OP, I would keep DS home. I can't believe they think it's okay for a teenage boy to spend the night in a room with teenage girls and no adults. I won't even tell what I did/could have done on a church retreat with adult supervision and boys and girls in different cabins. I would be equally uncomfortable if they had him room alone. As a scout parent myself one upon a time, I get that there should be another boy his age for him to bunk with.
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Post by leftturnonly on Jan 29, 2019 23:00:29 GMT
Homeless people came thru middle of the night and scared the boys. One woman had been repeatedly warned about scoffing at the rules - this one went too far. Exactly. It's because of the unforeseeable that a group like Scouts or a church needs to have set guidelines in place. Unfortunately, the need for these rules has come through hard experience that no one wants repeated.
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Post by marysue63 on Jan 29, 2019 23:27:23 GMT
I attend a Lutheran Church and am the council president. We have anyone that works with children complete a background check through our insurance company, and the insurance company provides additional training to keep everyone up to date. Our pastor is adamant that we do everything necessary to protect the kids AND the adults from false allegations.
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Post by Bridget in MD on Jan 30, 2019 2:54:56 GMT
.................. Is your son older than the other kids? 13 seem to be older than I remember mine being in 6th grade. OP said 6th grade was last year. I'm a life-long Lutheran and all the churches I've attended have two years of confirmation classes in 7th and 8th grades.OP, I would keep DS home. I can't believe they think it's okay for a teenage boy to spend the night in a room with teenage girls and no adults. I won't even tell what I did/could have done on a church retreat with adult supervision and boys and girls in different cabins. I would be equally uncomfortable if they had him room alone. As a scout parent myself one upon a time, I get that there should be another boy his age for him to bunk with. LOL when I was a kid (at the very same Church we are all attending now), it was a THREE year (torturous to us kids) program. My daughter went through it and it was a one year program. The very next year, my son began confirmation and they changed it to a 2 yr program, so he is kind of bitter about that (me too! I honestly don't understand why it had to be 2 yrs. New member programs are 1 month! LOL). But, we've made this committment as a family, and he's very close to finishing. I'm trying to keep my eye on the prize (Mother's Day! this year!) Our church does not have a big youth program. I think they look at the ages of the kids and begin a class when it makes sense. My DD was in 8th grade (1 yr program) - her class was 2 8th grade girls and a 7th grade girl. The next year, I thought I'd get a break and DS would start in his 7th gr year, but instead, there were 7 kids in 6th grade and 7 kids in 5th, and no older kids, so they started the program. They'll have 6 (bc one moved) 7th grade kids Confirmed this year, and hopefully 7 the following....
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Post by Bridget in MD on Jan 30, 2019 2:56:16 GMT
I think you should explain to the Pastor that this is what was done in Scouting and it's done for a reason. Then see if you can find a solution using it as a guide.Like you we had years of scouting with our son and the few times it wasn't followed had massive fall out (Scoutmaster removed from his post, a parent removed who was in charge of kids and didn't follow the rules - that went to headquarters). If you can't find a solution, then drive your son back and forth. If there is a chance for a conversation about it, I will bring this up. That's a good idea. Because like someone said, it just takes a minor thing to cause a major shitstorm.
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cycworker
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,387
Jun 26, 2014 0:42:38 GMT
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Post by cycworker on Jan 30, 2019 3:28:04 GMT
What I would do is offer to chaperone... you're right. Our church has the same rule. Our elders wouldn't allow this trip to even happen without a third chaperone being added. I would have a word with the pastor. He is setting himself & the church up for problems.
Note I don't think anything bad will happen, or that this is some nefarious set up to harm kids. I just believe in following rules.
Editted to add: If you or your dh can't chaperone overnight, I agree with you. I'd bring him home & back the next morning. Though part of me would be tempted to boycott the whole thing in protest of the lax standards. Every church should have Safe Church policies (that's what our denomination calls it) and be required to follow them. It is for the protection of everyone.
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Post by Bridget in MD on Jan 30, 2019 15:09:58 GMT
What I would do is offer to chaperone... you're right. Our church has the same rule. Our elders wouldn't allow this trip to even happen without a third chaperone being added. I would have a word with the pastor. He is setting himself & the church up for problems. Note I don't think anything bad will happen, or that this is some nefarious set up to harm kids. I just believe in following rules. Editted to add: If you or your dh can't chaperone overnight, I agree with you. I'd bring him home & back the next morning. Though part of me would be tempted to boycott the whole thing in protest of the lax standards. Every church should have Safe Church policies (that's what our denomination calls it) and be required to follow them. It is for the protection of everyone. Had I known things were going to end up like this, I think offering to chaperone as an extra adult is something we would have considered. We have monthly parent breakfast meetings, and I had been asking about the location and accomodations since December. I suspect they either waited too long to book a place, or decided on something different, because they just found out what the accomodations would be on Monday, and by then, my husband and I'd already made plans (plus we have a teenage daughter at home too). I suspect they requested lodging for 8 people, and this is what they got. They typically have used a religious retreat center in the past which has accomodations for this sort of activity. This time they are staying at a near by military rec center (probably a cabin) which is usually used for family vacations... I also am very tempted to boycott the whole damn thing. He's already done a retreat, BUT they have a very strict attendance policy. DS can only miss 4 classes a semester, and with Boy Scout camp outs, Sunday morning basketball games and in the spring, travel soccer, I am very careful to make sure he attends what he can. He's already missed 1 class in Jan, and he'll miss one in Feb... and we need to get through May. I finally got a response from the pastor, he just said "he was going to work on the schedule today". So I'm just waiting...
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Post by Spongemom Scrappants on Jan 30, 2019 15:54:21 GMT
when we had lock-ins at church or went on weekend retreats with youth group, we all slept in sleeping bags in the fellowship hall - including the chaperones. And even then... over the years, so many kids lost their virginity at church functions. And there was endless making out going on. I'm of the generation where we all stayed in one big room together. All of the above WAS happening. Right under the chaperones' noses. You separate by sex and in this case, that would mean your teen son bunking with one man that he doesn't even know --- or bunking in with teen girls. What about that is considered acceptable in 2019 for any church? Your son should not be the only young man on an overnight trip. He shouldn't stay alone with an unrelated male chaperone. Since there is not another boy on the trip (hence, three males in total), I'd be inclined to do the pick him up and drop him back off thing, too.
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Post by leftturnonly on Jan 30, 2019 17:35:18 GMT
I suspect they requested lodging for 8 people, and this is what they got. Your son and your family are demanded to take part in this for 2 years, and they waited too long to accommodate the kids in the class that they demand take the class? You might mention how disrespectful this is to your family to the pastor as well, because you should never have been put in this position. The next family that is has the distinct probability (not possibility but probability) of not finishing the confirmation class and possibly leaving not just that church but that faith as well.
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Post by Bridget in MD on Jan 30, 2019 18:27:56 GMT
I suspect they requested lodging for 8 people, and this is what they got. Your son and your family are demanded to take part in this for 2 years, and they waited too long to accommodate the kids in the class that they demand take the class? You might mention how disrespectful this is to your family to the pastor as well, because you should never have been put in this position. The next family that is has the distinct probability (not possibility but probability) of not finishing the confirmation class and possibly leaving not just that church but that faith as well. I truly believe this pastor - heck my community - is entrenched in the "not in my backyard" mentality. But just because it hasn't happened, doesnt' mean it won't. Heck, we are coming up on the 1 yr anniversary of the Great Mills High School shooting - Mar 20 - no one thought that would happen here either. I spoke to a friend who has a daughter in the class, now she is not thrilled with her daughter spending the night with the married couple (similar reasons as mine). Unfortunately, she kind of looks to me as being the spokesperson of the group, because, well, frankly, I am the only one who ever asks questions or voices concerns/opinions. I told her if I had the opportunity to speak to the pastor either before or after this retreat, I will mention procedures need to be in place for future youth events. However, I honestly believe I am losing effectiveness because I am ALWAYS (and typically the ONLY one) who won't remain silent. It's not taken as a "hey, let's make this the best for our kids and adults!" - it's more looked at "Oh there goes Bridget bitching about something again..."
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Post by Basket1lady on Jan 30, 2019 18:44:35 GMT
Your son and your family are demanded to take part in this for 2 years, and they waited too long to accommodate the kids in the class that they demand take the class? You might mention how disrespectful this is to your family to the pastor as well, because you should never have been put in this position. The next family that is has the distinct probability (not possibility but probability) of not finishing the confirmation class and possibly leaving not just that church but that faith as well. I truly believe this pastor - heck my community - is entrenched in the "not in my backyard" mentality. But just because it hasn't happened, doesnt' mean it won't. Heck, we are coming up on the 1 yr anniversary of the Great Mills High School shooting - Mar 20 - no one thought that would happen here either. I spoke to a friend who has a daughter in the class, now she is not thrilled with her daughter spending the night with the married couple (similar reasons as mine). Unfortunately, she kind of looks to me as being the spokesperson of the group, because, well, frankly, I am the only one who ever asks questions or voices concerns/opinions. I told her if I had the opportunity to speak to the pastor either before or after this retreat, I will mention procedures need to be in place for future youth events. However, I honestly believe I am losing effectiveness because I am ALWAYS (and typically the ONLY one) who won't remain silent. It's not taken as a "hey, let's make this the best for our kids and adults!" - it's more looked at "Oh there goes Bridget bitching about something again..." I cannot believe that any parent would condone a co-ed sleepover for something like this. It’s attitudes like that that got the Catholic Church into the mess it’s in now. No one questioning authority, and someone who isn’t even a parent setting this all up. Kids test boundaries. Even good kids. That is their job. Parents are there to guide them along life’s path, which includes protecting them from themselves. I would not have allowed my son to sleepover with these sleeping arrangements and chaperones, nor would I allow my daughter to do the same. If the persuasion of scout scout rules won’t change your pastor’s mind, maybe the guidelines that the public schools (or a Lutheran school) follows will help? Sooner or later, something is going to happen. I’ve been that parent bringing up the rules. We’re active duty Air Force and when we move to a new town, I’m always amazed at how lax some rules are. Maybe it’s because we’ve lived in the litigious DC area for too long, but I’ve gotten a few policies changed. One of which was to have adults two deep at Girl Scout meetings. It was 2010, in a town still reeling from abuse in the Catholic Church. Did they learn nothing? Not to mention the pure safety aspect of it. And yes, it was definitely official GS policy long before that.
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Post by leftturnonly on Jan 30, 2019 19:18:30 GMT
"Oh there goes Bridget bitching about something again..." I'm really sorry that you are in this position and that it makes you uncomfortable. Somebody has to be the tough one and that is never easy. The goal is the safety and protection of every single individual that attends these group things. That's it. It's not emotional. It's not over-protection. This is hard-learned reality of what needs to be done. All y'all want the very same thing.
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janeinbama
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,200
Location: Alabama
Jan 29, 2015 16:24:49 GMT
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Post by janeinbama on Jan 30, 2019 19:41:19 GMT
I would ask my son what he wants to do and how he feels about it. What is the source of your concern about this man? My main discomfort is that it’s a married couple. The kids know their teacher but I’m not even sure they’ve met her husband. I grew up in this church so I know who he is but I don’t know him myself. If anything were to happen -which I’m sure it won’t - it’s a child’s voice against a married couple. Maybe I’m too deep into youth protection and scouting, but it’s just a no-no. You have a third impartial adult if two of the chaperones are related. But that’s Scouting and this is not a Scouting event. I honestly wish the other male teacher was going on this retreat. The kids know him but they already have a room shortage so that’s probably another advantage on having the married couple. I agree with you Bridget in MD. The current set-up puts all the kids and the couple in awkward situations says former GS leader, Sunday School Director and youth group volunteer.
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Post by bc2ca on Jan 30, 2019 20:08:20 GMT
Ah yes because all those hormonally rampant teenage girls care about is ruining innocent boys lives! Stop with that bullshit, please. But teenage girls can be the worst. A a recent camp 2 girls (13/14 - but both look 16 + and dress very provaocatively) were 'shrieking and squealing' over all the boys, going up to them touching their bums and telling them they were hot, using very sexually provocative behaviour(so much so that 3 boys approached the staff and asked to be moved from the group as they found the girls behaviour sexually inappropriate and intimidating and didn't know how to deal with it). A 15 year old boy asked the younger girl if she wanted to go outside with him,. She did and once outside he put his arm around here put his arm around her at which point she screamed blue murder and told him he couldn't do that because she was only 13! She is now claiming she has PDST as a result. The point I am trying to make is no these girls didn't plan to ruin "innocent boys lives" but this boy did nothing wrong and the girls behaviour got him into so much trouble. He was suspended, there was an investigation, fortunately there were witnesses and he was cleared, but regardless he's now the one with the reputation while she carries on as if nothing has happened. So yes, it goes both ways and yes, there is a need for children of both sexes to be protected. so no - I don't think you are being over protective at all Slight hijack, but based on what you wrote here, the boy invited her outside and put his arm around her. He got in trouble for his own behavior. Bridget in MD, I wouldn't be happy with the sleeping arrangements on this retreat at all.
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Post by Bridget in MD on Jan 30, 2019 22:36:32 GMT
Slight update. The Pastor called me again to see if we had base access to the facility and was going over times with me. I told him that in scouting there is a two deep rule for everyone’s protection. He said he understood, no problem etc.
This evening he sent out a detailed schedule and mentioned that now that my son isn’t staying the night, there would no longer be a male chaperone either and that it would just be the female teacher there at night. Sigh. So much for two deep. He just truly doesnt get it. Because my son is no longer spending the night, im hoping some of the other moms speak up now....
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