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Post by Spongemom Scrappants on Oct 9, 2019 12:39:27 GMT
From news reports: DeGeneres said just because she doesn't agree with someone on everything, doesn't mean she's not going to be friends with them. "When I say be kind to one another, I don't mean be kind to the people who think the same way you do. I mean be kind to everyone," she said. Any of you peas who took the complete opposite stance on the Can a friendship survive differences in politics? thread feel any differently now? Asking for a friend...
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Deleted
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May 4, 2024 16:08:05 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2019 12:55:47 GMT
I think there is a difference between someone believing differently than I do and someone being a jerk about it. I will be friends with anyone with different views, but will step away if they are a jerk about it.
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Post by mustlovecats on Oct 9, 2019 13:03:09 GMT
No, my opinion is unchanged.
Some people’s beliefs literally involve denying others their human rights. I absolutely believe in being kind to people, but I personally won’t make room for racism and homophobia.
I also think Ellen speaks from a position of relative privilege to many others and that is important context.
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pilcas
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Post by pilcas on Oct 9, 2019 13:03:13 GMT
There is a difference in being kind and friendly and being friends. I have colleagues who have different views than mine and We are cordial and friendly, get along just fine but are not necessarily bosom friends.
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janeliz
Drama Llama
I'm the Wiz and nobody beats me.
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Jun 26, 2014 14:35:07 GMT
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Post by janeliz on Oct 9, 2019 13:11:50 GMT
I didn’t have a strong reaction when I first saw her sitting there chatting with GWB. Wealthy, connected people typically hang with wealthy, connected people, I figure.
Jon Lovett gave me some food for thought, though, when he said the following on Twitter:
George W. Bush’s famous interpersonal kindness and decency belied a mean-spirited, dishonest political operation central to his success. It doesn’t square because he doesn’t have to square it.
Not hard to see in disastrous policies. But also in the politics of his re-election campaign: dishonest Wolf ad, state constitutional amendments against marriage equality, swift boat shit he wouldn’t disavow.
W. always seemed to me a little baffled by the antipathy he inspired and how much lingering resentment followed him into governing, given the pride he took in how he treated people. But maybe that confusion makes sense when kindness is small enough to fit in a room.
Anyway, I see people sharing Ellen’s explanation and praising it. And who wants to be the person disagreeing with a video about kindness? Watch a game with W! He was the president. He seems like a good gang. And that IS demonstrating one sort of kindness and it has value.
Good hang. But saying it’s about “beliefs” is a dodge. Be friends with people who disagree. Be kind to everyone. Bush led the campaign against your marriage. His two Supreme Court justices dissented in the marriage equality case.
That’s one issue. One that is personal to Ellen. Does kindness require you not bring that up? Or does it require that you do? I’m not saying it makes you a fun guest in the suite! But what does being not just kind but a kind person actually mean?
There is a vast space between spitting in someone’s face and a sort of kindness that requires ignoring the world and everyone else in it, which is not very kind to people who don’t get invited to such places.
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Post by workingclassdog on Oct 9, 2019 13:26:41 GMT
Makes me love Ellen even more. She is a good example on how to get along with most everyone even if you have different views. There are a very few exceptions to this..as there is with most things. But in general I agree with her..
It makes me stop and I need to be a little more kinder to my neighbor who I have avoided for years because her views/ways drive me up the wall. She is very different type of person... I do wave when she drives by, but I hightail it inside just in case she thinks it is an invite to stop and talk for hours..
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2019 13:27:06 GMT
This is exactly where I am, I can be polite even kind to people with different beliefs but I don't want to be friends with anyone who believes that other human beings are somehow beneath them or shouldn't have the same rights they do. That to me would be saying that I'm fine with those beliefs and I'm really not.
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Post by jeremysgirl on Oct 9, 2019 13:36:50 GMT
I think I am a very kind person. Even when I feel like someone doesn't deserve my kindness, I'm kind anyway. Yes, I subscribe to the actions are more important than feelings theory. I have to. I'm bipolar and my feelings aren't reliable. My actions are. And that's what I consider to be good character. And that's what I strive for.
I stated on that thread that I'm struggling with my family and friends who are Trump supporters and it's precisely because of the kindness issue. They are choosing to support unkindness. They are choosing a political leader who isn't kind. They are supporting policies that aren't kind at all (like the treatment of people at our border). And while I think there is room for political disagreement and kindness is debatable in how do we solve the illegal immigration problem, I can get on board with a robust debate about how to let people in, if we should, how many, how do we handle it, etc. Where you lose me is when a court has order soap and toothbrushes and you were alright with that. Go back to where you came from brown people. This is the very definition of unkindness. You want me to be kind to you and I am. But you don't want to have to show kindness to others? You want to be kind to me because I'm your cousin and we have a nice, shared history. But you want to be unkind to people of color? I'm supposed to be alright with that?
I think what you are seeing is an ethical crisis because people who have taken the unkindness and oppression of others on the chin are finally standing up and calling out the unkindness. It looks like division because finally, people are tired of being kind when oppression exists because of the people we are supposed to be kind too. It looks very much to me like a higher set of expectations for one side. You can't help it you're racist, you've been sheltered. You can't help it you think less of immigrants, you're just an America first, flag waving patriot. You can't help it you don't like gays, your bible tells you they are morally repugnant. We have been making excuses for unkindness for years. Some of us have just reached the end of our rope.
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pancakes
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Post by pancakes on Oct 9, 2019 13:39:22 GMT
I give a lot of presidents some amount of leeway (minus the existing one, really). Politics is about getting votes and appeasing people, even if they don’t reflect your personal beliefs. Whether or not that’s moral or ethical is another question, but you cannot doubt that a president ends up doing things that they don’t necessarily agree with, no matter if they’re a republican or democrat. I don’t lump people in a bucket because someone they appointed made a decision or because the house/senate decided something. At the end of the day, the only thing you can control is you, personally. Not your friends, colleagues, or even family.
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Post by pjaye on Oct 9, 2019 13:44:26 GMT
Well a LOT depends on the personality of the person you have opposite views too. I thought 'W' was quite ineffectual as a President but he seems like a kind and decent man and I believed that he did his best in the job and he genuinely wanted the best for his country (even though I didn't always agree). Plus he's not a loud mouth and there's nothing offensive about him. Not liking him as a President in this instance is not the same as thinking he's a horrible person. Trump for example is different, he is a horrible person and hating him as a President pretty much means you are going to hate him as a person too. I also wonder at Ellen's definition of "friends" She's in a private box at a sporting event, I'd say it was pretty easy to sit next to a kindly older man and make small talk and share some laughs for an afternoon. But is that really what most of us call a friendship? Does she really mean she hangs out with him on a regular basis - goes to the movies with him? Rings him up for casual chats in the evening, goes round for dinner once a week, tells him her relationship issues with Portia and asks for his advice...I doubt it. So when the people are talking about real life friendships and everything that entails it's a lot different to sitting next to a nice old man for an afternoon. We can all do that. But in a real friendship you are usually much more involved and spending much more time with someone and then those ideological differences can be deal breakers.
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Post by Merge on Oct 9, 2019 13:53:42 GMT
It’s a very curious feature of most of the Texas GOP - lovely, kind people for the most part, would give you the shirt off their back, while simultaneously fighting against your right to marry you who want, have bodily autonomy, stay in the country to which you were brought as a toddler, etc. They honestly don’t see any disconnect in their actions, and neither does/did Bush.
To be fair - it’s my understanding that Bush’s beliefs about human rights have changed, and if he were a candidate today, I don’t think he’d be electable because he’s not socially conservative enough.
To answer the OP - Ellen has a right to her opinion as do I. Liberals are not Borg and Ellen is not our leader.
I should also add - living where I do, I take a don’t ask/don’t tell policy with regards to political beliefs. If you’re not wearing a Trump shirt or MAGA hat, or posting support for Trump and/or far-right craziness online, I assume you’re a decent person until proven otherwise.
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MaryMary
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Post by MaryMary on Oct 9, 2019 14:06:34 GMT
She said be kind to everyone, not be friends with everyone. There is a difference between those things. I absolutely believe we should be kind to everyone, even people we disagree with, even people who treat us badly. But, that doesn’t mean I invest time and effort into becoming friends with them.
I didn’t comment on the other thread. In my church and conservative town if I wasn’t friends with those that have different political beliefs, I would have almost no friends. We don’t talk politics.
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Post by thundergal on Oct 9, 2019 14:15:10 GMT
So many perfect responses. pjaye jeremysgirl @merge Thanks for your thoughtful takes. They echo my sentiments. And I'll add that I'm glad to see so many who aren't easily prepared to reverse their stance on interacting with trump groupies and supporters of the current GOP agenda because a famous Hollywood liberal reiterated that kindness is always the right choice. I feel that most of the people who posted in the thread mentioned in the OP already felt that way.
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Post by crazy4scraps on Oct 9, 2019 14:17:13 GMT
I too think it really depends on what any individual person’s definition of “friend” is. I’m very, very picky about those people I allow into my immediate circle. I don’t need a lot of hangers on and I don’t need a lot of excess drama since I had more than my share of that nonsense from my family growing up. I also don’t have an overblown need for everybody and their grandma to like me. As a result I only have a handful of “bury the body” friends and I’m fine with that.
I would define it very differently than my people pleasing DH. He has a few go-to people too, but he has a much larger circle of people that he is friendly with, that he would likely define as “friends” and I would define as “acquaintances.” To me there’s a huge difference between the two. I can be friendly and cordial with people I don’t necessarily agree with 100%, but that doesn’t automatically make them my friend. If someone’s personal, core beliefs didn’t align with my own, there is no way they’re getting in to my inner circle. I can be nice or polite to someone who believes horrible things about whole demographics of people, but once I understand that is who that person truly is, I’m going to make a point to steer away from that person in the future and will actively try not to engage because I don’t want to intentionally associate with people who think that way.
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Post by quinlove on Oct 9, 2019 14:26:10 GMT
I ❤️ Ellen. Have for many years, since her HBO stand ups. I think the vision of her with W, sent a strong message. And, everyone will see this in a different mindset. Their mindset. All she can do is say what she wants her message to be. This inspired me to go to her shop and I wanted some Be Kind merc. But everything I wanted was sold out. But that’s a good thing. When she says Be Kind To Everyone ~ she means everyone! In your own way.
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pudgygroundhog
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Posts: 4,643
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Post by pudgygroundhog on Oct 9, 2019 14:38:04 GMT
Has this changed my mind? No. Am I mad at Ellen for sitting next to Bush? No. Can the world use more kindness? Yes. However, just based on my Facebook feed and who is sharing this, I think they really mean be kinder to straight white Christian Americans because I don't see them extending kindness to anyone else. In some cases this reads "you need to be tolerant of my intolerance". No, no I don't. I will be civil and polite, but I don't need to extend any more than that.
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Post by peano on Oct 9, 2019 14:48:34 GMT
I think I am a very kind person. Even when I feel like someone doesn't deserve my kindness, I'm kind anyway. Yes, I subscribe to the actions are more important than feelings theory. I have to. I'm bipolar and my feelings aren't reliable. My actions are. And that's what I consider to be good character. And that's what I strive for. I stated on that thread that I'm struggling with my family and friends who are Trump supporters and it's precisely because of the kindness issue. They are choosing to support unkindness. They are choosing a political leader who isn't kind. They are supporting policies that aren't kind at all (like the treatment of people at our border). And while I think there is room for political disagreement and kindness is debatable in how do we solve the illegal immigration problem, I can get on board with a robust debate about how to let people in, if we should, how many, how do we handle it, etc. Where you lose me is when a court has order soap and toothbrushes and you were alright with that. Go back to where you came from brown people. This is the very definition of unkindness. You want me to be kind to you and I am. But you don't want to have to show kindness to others? You want to be kind to me because I'm your cousin and we have a nice, shared history. But you want to be unkind to people of color? I'm supposed to be alright with that? I think what you are seeing is an ethical crisis because people who have taken the unkindness and oppression of others on the chin are finally standing up and calling out the unkindness. It looks like division because finally, people are tired of being kind when oppression exists because of the people we are supposed to be kind too. It looks very much to me like a higher set of expectations for one side. You can't help it you're racist, you've been sheltered. You can't help it you think less of immigrants, you're just an America first, flag waving patriot. You can't help it you don't like gays, your bible tells you they are morally repugnant. We have been making excuses for unkindness for years. Some of us have just reached the end of our rope. SO well stated! I am currently wrestling with how to handle seeing a picture of my 14 year old great niece and three friends wearing Trump 2020 hats on Facebook, as I am going home to visit the fams at Thanksgiving. I haven't visited in two years. Granted family is somewhat different from friends, as I didn't get to pick them, but shit, I am feeling so sad and conflicted right now. I can kind of (muscles tensed, gritting my teeth) understand how people voted for him the first time, but I cannot understand how any sentient being could even entertain the possibility the second time around. I used to have quite a good relationship with them and our visits were fun. I think I can be cordial to them at the visit, but it makes me sad our relationship will never be the same. I can never view them through the same lens.
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rodeomom
Pearl Clutcher
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Location: Chickasaw Nation, Oklahoma
Jun 25, 2014 23:34:38 GMT
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Post by rodeomom on Oct 9, 2019 14:53:52 GMT
I think I am a very kind person. Even when I feel like someone doesn't deserve my kindness, I'm kind anyway. Yes, I subscribe to the actions are more important than feelings theory. I have to. I'm bipolar and my feelings aren't reliable. My actions are. And that's what I consider to be good character. And that's what I strive for. I stated on that thread that I'm struggling with my family and friends who are Trump supporters and it's precisely because of the kindness issue. They are choosing to support unkindness. They are choosing a political leader who isn't kind. They are supporting policies that aren't kind at all (like the treatment of people at our border). And while I think there is room for political disagreement and kindness is debatable in how do we solve the illegal immigration problem, I can get on board with a robust debate about how to let people in, if we should, how many, how do we handle it, etc. Where you lose me is when a court has order soap and toothbrushes and you were alright with that. Go back to where you came from brown people. This is the very definition of unkindness. You want me to be kind to you and I am. But you don't want to have to show kindness to others? You want to be kind to me because I'm your cousin and we have a nice, shared history. But you want to be unkind to people of color? I'm supposed to be alright with that? I think what you are seeing is an ethical crisis because people who have taken the unkindness and oppression of others on the chin are finally standing up and calling out the unkindness. It looks like division because finally, people are tired of being kind when oppression exists because of the people we are supposed to be kind too. It looks very much to me like a higher set of expectations for one side. You can't help it you're racist, you've been sheltered. You can't help it you think less of immigrants, you're just an America first, flag waving patriot. You can't help it you don't like gays, your bible tells you they are morally repugnant. We have been making excuses for unkindness for years. Some of us have just reached the end of our rope.
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Post by busy on Oct 9, 2019 15:08:01 GMT
Has this changed my mind? No. Am I mad at Ellen for sitting next to Bush? No. Can the world use more kindness? Yes. However, just based on my Facebook feed and who is sharing this, I think they really mean be kinder to straight white Christian Americans because I don't see them extending kindness to anyone else. In some cases this reads "you need to be tolerant of my intolerance". No, no I don't. I will be civil and polite, but I don't need to extend any more than that. 100% this
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Post by pjaye on Oct 9, 2019 15:27:24 GMT
She said be kind to everyone, not be friends with everyone. and she did also say "I'm friends with George Bush and I'm friends with a lot of people that don't share the same beliefs that I have" So she is really saying to be friends with people that you don't share beliefs with. It depends on what those differing beliefs are, but in some cases that isn't something I want to do and having Ellen, or any other celebrity telling me I should doesn't change my mind in the slightest.
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Post by disneypal on Oct 9, 2019 15:56:40 GMT
How Funny - when I saw the clip of Ellen saying that, I thought of that thread too...I was one of the ones that shared that I believe that politics shouldn't divide a friendship. One of my closest friends are about as opposite as can be when it comes to politics but that doesn't come between our friendship - we just agree to disagree and leave it at that. I am so glad Ellen said that, I wish more people would think that way.
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Post by quinlove on Oct 9, 2019 16:18:41 GMT
How Funny - when I saw the clip of Ellen saying that, I thought of that thread too...I was one of the ones that shared that I believe that politics shouldn't divide a friendship. One of my closest friends are about as opposite as can be when it comes to politics but that doesn't come between our friendship - we just agree to disagree and leave it at that. I am so glad Ellen said that, I wish more people would think that way. This is how I feel too. I stated on the other thread that Trump has divided our country - he’s not going to divide my family. Or my friends. Perhaps we should Make America Kind Again. Being kind makes ME feel good.
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Post by thundergal on Oct 9, 2019 16:28:35 GMT
The author of this piece makes some really good points. Ellen OpinionI'm not angry at Ellen at all. She has every right to be friends with whomever she chooses. But we aren't living in normal times. For me personally, my silence feels like acquiescence. And I'm not comfortable with that. And therefore I'm not comfortable being friends with people who view humanity and access to basic human rights differently than I do.
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Post by MichyM on Oct 9, 2019 16:36:24 GMT
I used to really like Ellen. Loved her sitcom way back when, before it got cancelled when she officially came out. The past year though, not so much. Between her (IMO) tasteless stand up special where all she talked about is how rich she is (yes, we know, you really don't need to beat us over the head with it) and her reaction to the Kevin Hart/Oscar hosting debacle, she's really turned me off. I can be kind to anyone, and like to think that I am most of the time. Doesn't mean they are my friends.
Let's be real shall we? She's not actually friends with Former President Bush, she's an acquaintance of his. Unless it suited some narrative of hers, she wouldn't be golfing/dining/vacationing/attending movie premiers with him.
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peabay
Prolific Pea
Posts: 9,598
Jun 25, 2014 19:50:41 GMT
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Post by peabay on Oct 9, 2019 16:37:42 GMT
Nope. Ellen isn't talking to me: I'm nice to everyone. I hold doors for people and make small talk and treat people with kindness.
But, no, if you say you support Trump I can't be your friend. I'll be polite - I won't spit on you - but you represent pretty much everything I abhor and I just can't overlook that. That being said, I have plenty of Republican friends - they just despise Trump and what's he's done to their party too.
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Post by pierkiss on Oct 9, 2019 16:45:12 GMT
I think I am a very kind person. Even when I feel like someone doesn't deserve my kindness, I'm kind anyway. Yes, I subscribe to the actions are more important than feelings theory. I have to. I'm bipolar and my feelings aren't reliable. My actions are. And that's what I consider to be good character. And that's what I strive for. I stated on that thread that I'm struggling with my family and friends who are Trump supporters and it's precisely because of the kindness issue. They are choosing to support unkindness. They are choosing a political leader who isn't kind. They are supporting policies that aren't kind at all (like the treatment of people at our border). And while I think there is room for political disagreement and kindness is debatable in how do we solve the illegal immigration problem, I can get on board with a robust debate about how to let people in, if we should, how many, how do we handle it, etc. Where you lose me is when a court has order soap and toothbrushes and you were alright with that. Go back to where you came from brown people. This is the very definition of unkindness. You want me to be kind to you and I am. But you don't want to have to show kindness to others? You want to be kind to me because I'm your cousin and we have a nice, shared history. But you want to be unkind to people of color? I'm supposed to be alright with that? I think what you are seeing is an ethical crisis because people who have taken the unkindness and oppression of others on the chin are finally standing up and calling out the unkindness. It looks like division because finally, people are tired of being kind when oppression exists because of the people we are supposed to be kind too. It looks very much to me like a higher set of expectations for one side. You can't help it you're racist, you've been sheltered. You can't help it you think less of immigrants, you're just an America first, flag waving patriot. You can't help it you don't like gays, your bible tells you they are morally repugnant. We have been making excuses for unkindness for years. Some of us have just reached the end of our rope. SO well stated! I am currently wrestling with how to handle seeing a picture of my 14 year old great niece and three friends wearing Trump 2020 hats on Facebook, as I am going home to visit the fams at Thanksgiving. I haven't visited in two years. Granted family is somewhat different from friends, as I didn't get to pick them, but shit, I am feeling so sad and conflicted right now. I can kind of (muscles tensed, gritting my teeth) understand how people voted for him the first time, but I cannot understand how any sentient being could even entertain the possibility the second time around. I used to have quite a good relationship with them and our visits were fun. I think I can be cordial to them at the visit, but it makes me sad our relationship will never be the same. I can never view them through the same lens. I hid all of the Trump supporters who outwardly display their hats and signs and whatever else. The sight of the hat has become a conditioned aversive for me-it instantaneously angers me. (Think Pavlov’s dogs and the bells 😉). With having them all hidden, when I interact with most of them in real life politics isn’t a factor. Most people are quick to avoid politics in everyday conversation, so it’s easy enough to maintain my friendships with them. I have a few family members who bring Trump up every so often when we are together. When that happens it’s on. Or, I leave. Because fighting about what he is doing to Washington and the country as a whole with those people isn’t worth it to me. I’m not going to change their minds, and they’re not going to change mine. And I don’t like to argue that much. ETA: I am not talking about my close friends here. None of my close friends support him or his platform in ANY way. The above is in regards to extended family members (aunts/uncles, cousins). Were I to find out that a very close friend supported some of the shit he is pulling (like the stuff with separating families at the border and imprisoning them indefinitely) we would no longer be close friends. I would back off that relationship real quick. It’s trickier with close family members (like my parents. Who I have to say are VERY GOOD about not discussing Trump with my brother and I). My parents voted for him. And I know they really like the way their portfolios are looking right now. And they’re lifelong straight ticket republicans, or just non voters if they don’t like the R choices available (😡). So there’s a good chance they’ll vote for him again. But also they hate what he is doing outside of the economy. 🤷♀️ With them, it’s just unconditional love. Like if your kid rapes or murders someone. You still love them, even though they did something terrible. Unconditional love, and political avoidance.
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cycworker
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,375
Jun 26, 2014 0:42:38 GMT
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Post by cycworker on Oct 9, 2019 16:51:52 GMT
Nope. Ellen isn't talking to me: I'm nice to everyone. I hold doors for people and make small talk and treat people with kindness. But, no, if you say you support Trump I can't be your friend. I'll be polite - I won't spit on you - but you represent pretty much everything I abhor and I just can't overlook that. That being said, I have plenty of Republican friends - they just despise Trump and what's he's done to their party too. This. I have another example. I have a friend who is Evangelical and doesn’t support same sex couples being able to use the word marriage. She has no issue with civil unions or giving same sex couples all the state/civil/legal benefits - she just wants to limit the use of the word to heterosexual couples. We agree to disagree. Her two now 20something kids feel as I do, the the point of attending a ceremony for a same sex couple. Friend and DH, while not super comfortable with it, didn’t say anything negative. Compare that to a guy who used to go to our church. I was never super friendly with him; more his wife... and I loved their kids when they were little. I thought his views were along the lines of my friend in the preceding paragraph. Turns out I was wrong. After the Pulse shooting he said awful things &’posted agreement with the Florida pastor who did that video saying he wished the shooter had succeeded in killing more of ‘them.’ I was done with him at that point. I’ll always be civil in public but that’s as far as it goes. I can’t ever be friends with them again.
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Post by MichyM on Oct 9, 2019 16:58:23 GMT
For those who don't want politics to come between friends and family, is there a line in the sand somewhere that you won't cross? Or another way of looking at it, at what point in Germany would you have not remained friends with your neighbors, friends, family who embraced Nazism? Or no matter what you knew? I'm Jewish, so right about 1930-1933 for me as the Nazi party gained power in the German parliament. And my ancestors are grateful for those who stood up for them and helped them escape the Nazis. That's exactly what (IMO) we should be doing for those who are marginalized in these times.
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Post by gar on Oct 9, 2019 17:30:53 GMT
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Post by LiLi on Oct 9, 2019 17:46:20 GMT
To (unnecessarily) add to all of the excellent points above-
It has been made known that George Bush doesn't like Trump as a leader, nor did he vote for him... So is the OP even a fair point?
As many stated in the other thread, cutting Trump supporters off as friends, is specifically about morals. The behavior and commentary of Trump and his supporters and not beliefs or politics.
If Ellen goes and hangs out with Trump... well I don't think you would see that happen. Sooooo 🤷🏻♀️
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