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Post by Merge on Nov 10, 2020 3:00:45 GMT
I have to agree with this. I had a big discussion with a friend about this very subject. Just because someone voted for Trump does not make them a racist. Yes, there is the whole implied and associated with rhetoric, but it's just not true. I've been thinking a lot about this kind of rhetoric too as I follow a few talking heads online who I consider centrist and focus their critique on their perceived problems of the left. Both sides seem to sling these extreme characterizations and I understand it's from feeling frustrated. I feel like society is on a pendulum and I think the left appears unhinged to some because they are sick of the slow pace of gaining rights in certain areas while they are told to be patient. And then when they throw what is perceived as a social justice trantrum, the right push back just as hard because they feel their rights are being assaulted. Where does it begin and end? So to anyone who feels unjustly called a racist, understand the rhethoric you engage in by calling people socialists when they want healthcare for all. And how about understanding that women who want control over their own reproductive systems aren't baby murderers. ...and the list goes on... ... and understand that asking people to be patient and wait to have the same rights as everyone else is incredibly offensive. No one should have to wait to be treated as a human being. No one should have to wait because demanding equal rights makes others uncomfortable. No human life should be used as a political football in the immigration game (and this is one area where R and D share equal blame).
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Post by Sorrel on Nov 10, 2020 3:10:08 GMT
I'm really struggling with this as well. I don't think that all people who voted for Trump are actively racist. However, I feel that a vote for Trump was a vote for racism. Even if they weren't thinking, "Hey, I am going to vote for the racist because I like racism" they were able to overlook the racism (and other forms of discrimination, bigotry, and everything else that came with Trump and his character). This. It is an endorsement of racism, whether they believe they are personally racist or not. Plenty of Republican voters could not endorse that, and didn't vote for him.
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Nov 10, 2020 3:22:43 GMT
You're underestimating them. There are MANY things they could do. Like?? I am surrounded by them. I think you should come meet a few. Then get back to me. Ask Kristin and Edie, they’ve met a few in my Facebook page... ha! I think J would make a great social worker or teacher...haha.
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Post by cindyupnorth on Nov 10, 2020 4:31:46 GMT
Like?? I am surrounded by them. I think you should come meet a few. Then get back to me. Ask Kristin and Edie, they’ve met a few in my Facebook page... ha! Like rebuilding roads. Like rebuilding waterways and bridges. Like rebuilding airports and runways. Like rebuilding schools..... "Our infrastructure is already in terrible shape due to deferred maintenance and poor investment. The American Society of Civil Engineers estimates it will take $3.6 trillion to repair our country’s crumbling roads, rails, pipes, and power grids. But we can’t just build it back as it was. For the true spirit of the Green New Deal—economic transformation rooted in sustainability and social justice—to come to fruition, we’ll have to rescript our future through new infrastructure. And this infrastructure will be about unbuilding our mistakes as much as it is building an equitable, just, and sustainable future." archive.curbed.com/2019/9/19/20872719/green-new-deal-infrastructure-design Get it? [ Those jobs are already in high demand here, and only seasonal.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2020 4:34:01 GMT
Like rebuilding roads. Like rebuilding waterways and bridges. Like rebuilding airports and runways. Like rebuilding schools..... "Our infrastructure is already in terrible shape due to deferred maintenance and poor investment. The American Society of Civil Engineers estimates it will take $3.6 trillion to repair our country’s crumbling roads, rails, pipes, and power grids. But we can’t just build it back as it was. For the true spirit of the Green New Deal—economic transformation rooted in sustainability and social justice—to come to fruition, we’ll have to rescript our future through new infrastructure. And this infrastructure will be about unbuilding our mistakes as much as it is building an equitable, just, and sustainable future." archive.curbed.com/2019/9/19/20872719/green-new-deal-infrastructure-design Get it? [ Those jobs are already in high demand here, and only seasonal. $3.6 trillion in repairs needed.Maybe if we could tax properly, we could hire more people to deal w/the crumbling country and its crumbling jobs - all year long!
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Post by crazy4scraps on Nov 10, 2020 6:12:24 GMT
I think I'd say that one mistake lots of people make is thinking any group - republicans, democrats, Latinos, women, working class voters, any group you can think of - are a monolith. They simply are not. People vote the ways they do for a variety of reasons. You can't slap a label on huge swaths of people and think it's going to hold most of the time, it just won't work. But I will also say that while people who support Trump may not be actively racist, racism is clearly not a deal breaker for them. That is undeniable. Indecency is not a deal breaker for them. Making fun of/mocking developmentally disabled people is not a deal breaker. Groping women and bragging about it, not a deal breaker. Lying 20,000+ times, not a deal breaker. Putting yourself and your interests above the nation you are leading, not a problem. Filling your cabinet with unqualified family, millionaires and billionaires, no problem. Denying science, not paying your fair share of taxes or releasing your tax returns to the American people, no problem. Having foreign bank accounts, having your businesses declare bankruptcy, cheating on spouses, having the character of a cartoon villain, not a single issue. There is no malfeasance about this dude that makes any difference whatsoever, apparently. That said, people vote for him for all kinds of reasons that serve them and none of the above or any of the other possibly even criminal behavior about him matter - as long as their paycheck or 401k grows or he packs the courts with justices that will decide abortion the way they want or he keeps the Southern strategy alive or whatever his agenda is that they like. As long as they get theirs/their agenda is served, whatever that may be. Some people might fancy they are worried about the economy and that they are decent folks - but you have look past a lot of really revolting, diabolical shit to get to that place, and I frankly cannot understand that. I am being utterly genuine when I say that. I cannot understand that perspective.
ETA I'm all ranty, I was still reading page 2 and the convo has moved on....sorry. This is where I’m at too. A lot of people had to be willing to overlook an awful lot to cast their vote for Trump. Any one of those things could (and probably should) be a potential deal breaker in a candidate, but when you combine them ALL and can STILL overlook that whole trash bag of stench and fill in that oval anyway? SMDH. It seems to me with Trump supporters there was no tipping point that was too much, and then that does say something about their own character.
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Post by jeremysgirl on Nov 10, 2020 10:35:50 GMT
AmeliaBloomer is right. All widgets matter. And we have to do a better job of showing people that when their job is outsourced we have another training option available to them. NO! Widgets change. Should we have tried to save all the Blockbuster Video jobs?!? How about the Blackberry jobs?!??! Jobs change. The JOB is important. Not the widget. I think that's what you're trying to say, but NOT all widgets matter. The important thing is to find things for people to do (like renewable energy instead of fossil fuels - www.forbes.com/sites/energyinnovation/2019/04/22/renewable-energy-job-boom-creating-economic-opportunity-as-coal-industry-slumps/). And to make work (more social workers, more teachers, more mental health counselors, more artists, etc) when we've automated the crap out of a lot of jobs and offshored the rest. I'm not saying I disagree with you. what I'm saying is that's a hard sell for a lot of people. Especially people who are just barely getting by as it is. They fear the unknown... And I say that as a person who went back to school at 38 years old for masters degree in a completely different field that I wasn't initially nuts about. I had an opportunity for half price tuition and I took it. For economic reasons. It just so happens I also enjoy what I do now. But I didn't know that going into school. But that was scary. I had a family to support.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2020 11:57:39 GMT
AmeliaBloomer is right. All widgets matter. And we have to do a better job of showing people that when their job is outsourced we have another training option available to them. Both of you are right. I also think that Americans tend to complain about jobs being sent overseas and products being made in China, yet they want their "stuff" cheap...cheap...cheap! Companies know this so they "outsource" to have products made cheaper to in turn increase their profit margin. DH and I are business owners and OF COURSE, we must always look at our profit margin. IMO, there are a lot of culprits that need to be evaluated in order to "right" the system. But I ask you, are Americans willing to pay the higher price to pay for the labor and cost to have goods made in America?
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Post by jeremysgirl on Nov 10, 2020 12:04:47 GMT
AmeliaBloomer is right. All widgets matter. And we have to do a better job of showing people that when their job is outsourced we have another training option available to them. Both of you are right. I also think that Americans tend to complain about jobs being sent overseas and products being made in China, yet they want their "stuff" cheap...cheap...cheap! Companies know this so they "outsource" to have products made cheaper to in turn increase their profit margin. DH and I are business owners and OF COURSE, we must always look at our profit margin. IMO, there are a lot of culprits that need to be evaluated in order to "right" the system. But I ask you, are Americans willing to pay the higher price to pay for the labor and cost to have goods made in America? I agree with your post here but I don't think that's a complete picture either. While I will agree we want cheap (I'm willing to pay more for ethically sourced products) we also have the problem of we may be getting things cheaper than we would if made in America but we are still getting screwed on prices compared to other countries. And I'll give you some examples. Prescription drugs. We pay more for them as americans than virtually any other place in the world. That causes resentment. China is stealing our design ideas. That causes resentment. Jeremy's uncle is an international flight attendant. He brings us back goods from China like yeti cups that are a fraction of the cost there that they are here. He buys his eyeglasses when he's in China because the mark up on frames is so bad in the US. People aren't just bitter about their jobs going overseas. They are mad because Americans are being taken advantage of in the marketplace as well.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2020 12:19:48 GMT
If you support someone who is openly racist, someone who denies science, someone who mocks the disabled, is visibly contemptuous of women, who lies and thinks it's only ok if he does it, is it really surprising that people might assume that you might also hold those same beliefs and have a very low moral bar?
People support other people because they hold the same values, it seems a really simple equation to me.
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Post by hop2 on Nov 10, 2020 12:31:21 GMT
AmeliaBloomer is right. All widgets matter. And we have to do a better job of showing people that when their job is outsourced we have another training option available to them. Both of you are right. I also think that Americans tend to complain about jobs being sent overseas and products being made in China, yet they want their "stuff" cheap...cheap...cheap! Companies know this so they "outsource" to have products made cheaper to in turn increase their profit margin. DH and I are business owners and OF COURSE, we must always look at our profit margin. IMO, there are a lot of culprits that need to be evaluated in order to "right" the system. But I ask you, are Americans willing to pay the higher price to pay for the labor and cost to have goods made in America? Well, I do know plenty of people who will not buy or feed their pet anything not made in America. Anyone I know with a dog simply won’t buy a treat if it’s not made in America. They buy junk for themselves but must be made in America for the pup.
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Post by Really Red on Nov 10, 2020 13:35:25 GMT
Read my post. If your husband sold widgets (or worked in the oil industry) you would support a candidate who shared your values. I am not over reaching. It is so easy to judge others because their political affiliation is not the same as yours. I just refuse to accept that the Republican party is full of racists and nare-do-wells. We all do what is best for our family. Sorry it is the truth. You know you would do the same . Just because I am a former Republican doesn't makes me a racist. I just happen to believe in pro-choice which some might find abhorrent. I have been unemployed since March due to Covid shut downs. Trump absolutely wants to open schools back up meaning I could go back to work. I did not EVER consider voting for Trump, not even for a second. What is best for my family doesn’t trump decency or morality. It is not more important then the basic human rights of other people. It is not more important then the health of the environment. It sure as hell isn't more important then the lives of all the Americans lost to Covid due to the lack of Trump’s failure to manage the pandemic. Yes. In the end, all of our allies in the world have breathed a huge breath of relief. What does that tell people who voted for Trump? I really want to understand that. Does it mean that every leader of other great nations is stupid, too? Left wing, too? I am just floored by the absolute facts that Trump has consistently shown who he is and apparently everyone thinks (incorrectly) that socialism is worse. I mean Biden could not be more centrist! So I truly believe that everyone who voted for Trump is either a) racist/homophobic/misogynist, b) stupid (listens to everything that Trump puts out and believes it) or c) both of the above. Do not tell me that is what is wrong with Democrats. When did Republicans ever - EVER?! - attempt to bring Democrats into their fold?
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Post by peano on Nov 10, 2020 14:01:09 GMT
I'm a lifelong democrat and am dismayed that half of the votes came in for Trump. That's practically a civil war split, because no resolution could come between the two. I can never accept Trump and the actions of his party. I can never see his supporters as anything but racist hateful people with interest only in themselves. This includes family and friends of mine, who I know to be exactly that. Joe Biden may be president of all America, but he can never give voice to the republican voters who express and continue to spew their hate a they have the past 4 years. I really have come to believe we were on the verge of another Nazi Regime and he was Hitler. How can that ever be reconciled? I'm really struggling with this as well. I don't think that all people who voted for Trump are actively racist. However, I feel that a vote for Trump was a vote for racism. Even if they weren't thinking, "Hey, I am going to vote for the racist because I like racism" they were able to overlook the racism (and other forms of discrimination, bigotry, and everything else that came with Trump and his character). A FB friend called me out for that statement yesterday and it really bugged me. Partly because I don't think my thoughts are coming across clearly (or at least are not being understood) and partly because I don't want to be bitter about people. But I really am. I was chatting with another pea last night, trying to understand how people could NOT see a vote for Trump as a vote for racism. I still don't quite see eye to eye with that, and don't think my point is coming across clearly in regards to people's priorities not being the same to allow them to vote for Trump. However, I have done some thinking and reflecting on how I can not see this as a concrete issue with no gray. I think part of it is that I have always been someone who has been interested in human rights. To me, the economic policies or things like gas prices and taxes don't make a country great. It is the people and IMO you can't have a great country while many people are being oppressed. And, also IMO, that is exactly what Trump and the current GOP are about. So, it still comes down to values and priorities to me. I have been trying to do some self-reflection to figure out how to move past these thoughts and feelings that I have. I wish that people like keriwest and my FB friend would also do some self-reflection to try to understand where people like me and @myboysandme are coming from. That would go a long way. As for what Democrats could do differently....I think the fear mongering and misinformation is a huge issue. I really don't know what more could be done to fix that. I know that many of us have been trying to share accurate information and challenge people when they post lies or things that are not entirely accurate. It has not helped. I would have liked to see more ads that challenged their lies, but overall, how can we change the willingness of people to believe what they are being told, regardless of whether it is true or not? And I fear it will be 100 times worse now that they are all going onto their own sites that are run by conspiracy theorists. No, not every Trump voter is a hood-wearing, tiki-torch marching white supremacist. But making the decision to vote for Trump because it protects your self-interest is saying this, to you, is more important than character. And this is the fatal flaw in your existence. If you build your house with rotting wood, you are not building a firm foundation, and your house will collapse. I totally get the looking out for my family's business interests that prompts keriwest 's views. I, too, have benefitted financially from my family's business. My great-grandfather came to this country with nothing and built it. BUT, he was white. So a big part of my family's insistence in following Trump off the cliff is that they ascribe to the belief that millions of people in urban areas want to just sit around and be supported by the people who are WORKING for a living, damn it! While choosing conveniently to ignore and/or dismiss how systemic racism over hundreds of years has erected barriers to success for POC. So it's no surprise that this beating down over the generations creates a climate inhospitable to educational and financial success. It's so safe and comfortable for these non-tiki torch carrying suburban racists to keep to their tunnel vision and declare, "Who me? I'm not a racist." The choice to remain blissfully ignorant, the choice to devote nothing but the most superficial thought to this issue, much less the choice to avoid a "searching and fearless moral inventory" as they say in the 12-Step rooms, is the very definition of white privilege.
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Post by sabrinae on Nov 10, 2020 14:01:53 GMT
Here is the quote...the bold is mine. I remember Keri from the old board. I remember all the jealous posts about her new house. I do not remember 1 racist post. Her husband is in the oil industry. If your husband was in the widget industry and our impeached president supported widgets you would too to put food on the table. Here’s the thing though not everyone votes with their pocketbooks. I don’t. I didn’t and won’t support Trump even if it would have been the difference between me losing my job and keeping it. Contrary to Trump talking points Biden is not going to destroy the oil industry in the US. In fact the oil industry is currently in major trouble in the US thanks to Trumps buddies - Putin (Russia) and MSB (Saudi Arabia). There are people who won’t support the violence and racism and misogyny that Trump incites even over there own personal self-interests.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2020 14:10:51 GMT
Both of you are right. I also think that Americans tend to complain about jobs being sent overseas and products being made in China, yet they want their "stuff" cheap...cheap...cheap! Companies know this so they "outsource" to have products made cheaper to in turn increase their profit margin. DH and I are business owners and OF COURSE, we must always look at our profit margin. IMO, there are a lot of culprits that need to be evaluated in order to "right" the system. But I ask you, are Americans willing to pay the higher price to pay for the labor and cost to have goods made in America? I agree with your post here but I don't think that's a complete picture either. While I will agree we want cheap (I'm willing to pay more for ethically sourced products) we also have the problem of we may be getting things cheaper than we would if made in America but we are still getting screwed on prices compared to other countries. And I'll give you some examples. Prescription drugs. We pay more for them as americans than virtually any other place in the world. That causes resentment. China is stealing our design ideas. That causes resentment. Jeremy's uncle is an international flight attendant. He brings us back goods from China like yeti cups that are a fraction of the cost there that they are here. He buys his eyeglasses when he's in China because the mark up on frames is so bad in the US. People aren't just bitter about their jobs going overseas. They are mad because Americans are being taken advantage of in the marketplace as well. You are completely right in this as well. I give myself a daily injection that costs (the price we pay here) the equivalent of $125 in the States. What is the price people pay in the States, you ask? $1,2500!!!!!! I mean, what the hell?
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Post by peano on Nov 10, 2020 14:23:17 GMT
NO! Widgets change. Should we have tried to save all the Blockbuster Video jobs?!? How about the Blackberry jobs?!??! Jobs change. The JOB is important. Not the widget. I think that's what you're trying to say, but NOT all widgets matter. The important thing is to find things for people to do (like renewable energy instead of fossil fuels - www.forbes.com/sites/energyinnovation/2019/04/22/renewable-energy-job-boom-creating-economic-opportunity-as-coal-industry-slumps/). And to make work (more social workers, more teachers, more mental health counselors, more artists, etc) when we've automated the crap out of a lot of jobs and offshored the rest. I'm not saying I disagree with you. what I'm saying is that's a hard sell for a lot of people. Especially people who are just barely getting by as it is. They fear the unknown... And I say that as a person who went back to school at 38 years old for masters degree in a completely different field that I wasn't initially nuts about. I had an opportunity for half price tuition and I took it. For economic reasons. It just so happens I also enjoy what I do now. But I didn't know that going into school. But that was scary. I had a family to support. But rolling with what life deals us, deciding to forge on despite fear, is a sign of character. (And genetic superiority, in that those who are more able to adapt to change, are more likely to pass on their genes.) This has been very evident this year with COVID. The people who are able to deal with fear and uncertainty, and listen to facts coming from epidemiologists are acting responsibly. The ones who are less successful in this are not. They are in denial and are acting in ways that benefit neither themselves, nor anyone else.
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Post by jeremysgirl on Nov 10, 2020 14:36:54 GMT
I'm not saying I disagree with you. what I'm saying is that's a hard sell for a lot of people. Especially people who are just barely getting by as it is. They fear the unknown... And I say that as a person who went back to school at 38 years old for masters degree in a completely different field that I wasn't initially nuts about. I had an opportunity for half price tuition and I took it. For economic reasons. It just so happens I also enjoy what I do now. But I didn't know that going into school. But that was scary. I had a family to support. But rolling with what life deals us, deciding to forge on despite fear, is a sign of character. (And genetic superiority, in that those who are more able to adapt to change, are more likely to pass on their genes.) This has been very evident this year with COVID. The people who are able to deal with fear and uncertainty, and listen to facts coming from epidemiologists are acting responsibly. The ones who are less successful in this are not. They are in denial and are acting in ways that benefit neither themselves, nor anyone else. I absolutely agree with you. I'm just not sure how we turn people into people who want to confront their fear and forge ahead.
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Nov 10, 2020 16:01:59 GMT
I'm really struggling with this as well. I don't think that all people who voted for Trump are actively racist. However, I feel that a vote for Trump was a vote for racism. Even if they weren't thinking, "Hey, I am going to vote for the racist because I like racism" they were able to overlook the racism (and other forms of discrimination, bigotry, and everything else that came with Trump and his character). A FB friend called me out for that statement yesterday and it really bugged me. Partly because I don't think my thoughts are coming across clearly (or at least are not being understood) and partly because I don't want to be bitter about people. But I really am. I was chatting with another pea last night, trying to understand how people could NOT see a vote for Trump as a vote for racism. I still don't quite see eye to eye with that, and don't think my point is coming across clearly in regards to people's priorities not being the same to allow them to vote for Trump. However, I have done some thinking and reflecting on how I can not see this as a concrete issue with no gray. I think part of it is that I have always been someone who has been interested in human rights. To me, the economic policies or things like gas prices and taxes don't make a country great. It is the people and IMO you can't have a great country while many people are being oppressed. And, also IMO, that is exactly what Trump and the current GOP are about. So, it still comes down to values and priorities to me. I have been trying to do some self-reflection to figure out how to move past these thoughts and feelings that I have. I wish that people like keriwest and my FB friend would also do some self-reflection to try to understand where people like me and @myboysandme are coming from. That would go a long way. As for what Democrats could do differently....I think the fear mongering and misinformation is a huge issue. I really don't know what more could be done to fix that. I know that many of us have been trying to share accurate information and challenge people when they post lies or things that are not entirely accurate. It has not helped. I would have liked to see more ads that challenged their lies, but overall, how can we change the willingness of people to believe what they are being told, regardless of whether it is true or not? And I fear it will be 100 times worse now that they are all going onto their own sites that are run by conspiracy theorists. No, not every Trump voter is a hood-wearing, tiki-torch marching white supremacist. But making the decision to vote for Trump because it protects your self-interest is saying this, to you, is more important than character. And this is the fatal flaw in your existence. If you build your house with rotting wood, you are not building a firm foundation, and your house will collapse. I totally get the looking out for my family's business interests that prompts keriwest 's views. I, too, have benefitted financially from my family's business. My great-grandfather came to this country with nothing and built it. BUT, he was white. So a big part of my family's insistence in following Trump off the cliff is that they ascribe to the belief that millions of people in urban areas want to just sit around and be supported by the people who are WORKING for a living, damn it! While choosing conveniently to ignore and/or dismiss how systemic racism over hundreds of years has erected barriers to success for POC. So it's no surprise that this beating down over the generations creates a climate inhospitable to educational and financial success. It's so safe and comfortable for these non-tiki torch carrying suburban racists to keep to their tunnel vision and declare, "Who me? I'm not a racist." The choice to remain blissfully ignorant, the choice to devote nothing but the most superficial thought to this issue, much less the choice to avoid a "searching and fearless moral inventory" as they say in the 12-Step rooms, is the very definition of white privilege. Very true. And let's stop pretending that people only voted for him for one reason. The person we are talking about in this thread has never stated anything against Trump, and appears to support him wholeheartedly. It isn't just because she thinks her husband's industry is going to be saved by Trump. I would imagine that is fairly typical of those who voted for him.
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Post by peano on Nov 10, 2020 16:36:50 GMT
But rolling with what life deals us, deciding to forge on despite fear, is a sign of character. (And genetic superiority, in that those who are more able to adapt to change, are more likely to pass on their genes.) This has been very evident this year with COVID. The people who are able to deal with fear and uncertainty, and listen to facts coming from epidemiologists are acting responsibly. The ones who are less successful in this are not. They are in denial and are acting in ways that benefit neither themselves, nor anyone else. I absolutely agree with you. I'm just not sure how we turn people into people who want to confront their fear and forge ahead. I don’t know either, except for more voices like yours speaking out and talking about the challenges they faced and how confronting their fears was, in its own way, freeing. Sadly, most people aren’t moved to change until the pain of not changing outweighs the pain of doing it.
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Post by pixiechick on Nov 10, 2020 17:44:02 GMT
If you support someone who is openly racist, someone who denies science, someone who mocks the disabled, is visibly contemptuous of women, who lies and thinks it's only ok if he does it, is it really surprising that people might assume that you might also hold those same beliefs and have a very low moral bar?
People support other people because they hold the same values, it seems a really simple equation to me.
It's NOT that simple. All "you" used in a general sense. Racism exists. Trump supporters are not perfect and some even say or do bad things. So do Biden supporters, for that matter. Trump lies. So does Biden for that matter. Trump is an idiot for not wearing a mask more than he does, for not setting a good example and doing ALL that he can to prevent the spread. We can all agree that Biden set a good example here. Trump is inarticulate way too often. Biden is too, he even has his own version of cofeffee now. Trump says things awkwardly that have to be explained sometimes. So does Biden. Trump says things that CAN’T be explained sometimes. So does Biden. Just as Biden does, Trump says and does things that people that do support him don’t always agree with. We condemn those things. You don’t always get to see it because when you aggressively demand it in a hostile way and condemn them from the get go, you are shutting down the road to common ground, civil discussions and working together. Now that I’ve agreed to the basic facts… You wonder how can anyone support Trump? It’s because of the THOUSANDS of things just like what I bolded in your post in the last 4 years that are reported incorrectly and repeated endlessly as fact, that we absolutely don’t take into account. Nor should we. Nor should you. But you do and then assume we take those things into account and still support him. Then you take that incorrect assumption and come to another incorrect assumption that we must be evil because we’ve “done that”. Running on that same assumption, you proceed to treat people in an actual vile and evil way. The very thing you attribute to Trump and condemn him for, you turn around and do and become. Shunning anyone who shows support even when you ask them to under the guise of "trying to understand", wishing death on people, attributing evil to red hats, refusing to serve anyone who would dare to show their support for him in any way, beating people senseless, pulling them out of their vehicle and fatally shooting them then hold a rally to cheer the death and say you are not sorry and actors, politicians and media calling for violence. Then you are shocked and surprised when people don’t say anything when you ask why we support him, why the polls didn’t reflect support for him in 2016, why there weren’t more signs out and how could he have possibly been elected when all of that showed you he wouldn’t be. And after all that, you sit there thinking you hold the moral high ground. You can’t see your party for what they ACTUALLY are, but you can see THOUSANDS of things that don’t exist in “your enemy” and then sit back and wonder why the country is so divided.
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Post by Belia on Nov 10, 2020 19:02:07 GMT
But someone who voted for Trump is OK with having a racist as President of the United States. That's what I can't reconcile or get around. I don't know what's in everybody's individual heart, but who you vote for tells me what you support.
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scorpeao
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,521
Location: NorCal USA
Jun 25, 2014 21:04:54 GMT
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Post by scorpeao on Nov 10, 2020 20:43:50 GMT
If you support someone who is openly racist, someone who denies science, someone who mocks the disabled, is visibly contemptuous of women, who lies and thinks it's only ok if he does it, is it really surprising that people might assume that you might also hold those same beliefs and have a very low moral bar?
People support other people because they hold the same values, it seems a really simple equation to me.
It's NOT that simple. All "you" used in a general sense. Racism exists. Trump supporters are not perfect and some even say or do bad things. So do Biden supporters, for that matter. Trump lies. So does Biden for that matter. Trump is an idiot for not wearing a mask more than he does, for not setting a good example and doing ALL that he can to prevent the spread. We can all agree that Biden set a good example here. Trump is inarticulate way too often. Biden is too, he even has his own version of cofeffee now. Trump says things awkwardly that have to be explained sometimes. So does Biden. Trump says things that CAN’T be explained sometimes. So does Biden. Just as Biden does, Trump says and does things that people that do support him don’t always agree with. We condemn those things. You don’t always get to see it because when you aggressively demand it in a hostile way and condemn them from the get go, you are shutting down the road to common ground, civil discussions and working together. Now that I’ve agreed to the basic facts… You wonder how can anyone support Trump? It’s because of the THOUSANDS of things just like what I bolded in your post in the last 4 years that are reported incorrectly and repeated endlessly as fact, that we absolutely don’t take into account. Nor should we. Nor should you. But you do and then assume we take those things into account and still support him. Then you take that incorrect assumption and come to another incorrect assumption that we must be evil because we’ve “done that”. Running on that same assumption, you proceed to treat people in an actual vile and evil way. The very thing you attribute to Trump and condemn him for, you turn around and do and become. Shunning anyone who shows support even when you ask them to under the guise of "trying to understand", wishing death on people, attributing evil to red hats, refusing to serve anyone who would dare to show their support for him in any way, beating people senseless, pulling them out of their vehicle and fatally shooting them then hold a rally to cheer the death and say you are not sorry and actors, politicians and media calling for violence. Then you are shocked and surprised when people don’t say anything when you ask why we support him, why the polls didn’t reflect support for him in 2016, why there weren’t more signs out and how could he have possibly been elected when all of that showed you he wouldn’t be.
And after all that, you sit there thinking you hold the moral high ground. You can’t see your party for what they ACTUALLY are, but you can see THOUSANDS of things that don’t exist in “your enemy” and then sit back and wonder why the country is so divided. You realize this is exactly what the Trump crowd does, right? I have yet to hear about Biden supporters calling for the kidnapping and execution of high level government appointees. If this were to happen I have no doubt that Biden would condemn it. Did Trump say anything about it? Not only did he not condemn it, later that day during one of his rallies he went off on a rant about the Governor of Michigan. You can't see that you are exactly what you're condemning Biden supporter of being except you have the backing of the president to do so. And the polls in 2020 don't reflect support for him any longer. You know why? Because educated republicans voted for him to see if maybe things would change. They realized the error of their ways and supported Biden in 2020.
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Post by kmcginn on Nov 10, 2020 21:02:14 GMT
And while quite a large spread, it wasn't quite the repudiation of Trump we all hoped for. it also wasn't a repudiation of the Republican Party judging from the down ticket Republican wins!
The Democrats definitely have some work to do!
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Deleted
Posts: 0
May 13, 2024 15:05:41 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2020 23:03:37 GMT
Shunning anyone who shows support even when you ask them to under the guise of "trying to understand", wishing death on people, attributing evil to red hats, refusing to serve anyone who would dare to show their support for him in any way, beating people senseless, pulling them out of their vehicle and fatally shooting them then hold a rally to cheer the death and say you are not sorry and actors, politicians and media calling for violence. Then you are shocked and surprised when people don’t say anything when you ask why we support him, why the polls didn’t reflect support for him in 2016, why there weren’t more signs out and how could he have possibly been elected when all of that showed you he wouldn’t be. You realize this is just a laundry list of stuff that I see mostly the GOP do. You have NO citations. Just a list of stuff that the GOP does well. For example:https://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/2020/11/aaa-cuts-ties-with-oregon-tow-truck-driver-who-refused-to-help-biden-supporter.html
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Post by pixiechick on Nov 11, 2020 2:19:20 GMT
You realize this is exactly what the Trump crowd does, right? You realize this is just a laundry list of stuff that I see mostly the GOP do. Both of you could, at the very least, read the second sentence in my first paragraph again.
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sassyangel
Drama Llama
Posts: 7,456
Jun 26, 2014 23:58:32 GMT
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Post by sassyangel on Nov 11, 2020 3:02:57 GMT
Just because someone voted for Trump does not make them a racist. I disagree. I believe a vote for Trump is a vote for overt racism. I believe I could be in a conversation with any Trump voter, just them and me with them not knowing my beliefs, and I could have them spewing racism in less than 15 minutes. Overt AND systemic racism. Just because someone isn’t overt with their thoughts, doesn’t mean they don’t have racist thoughts. Or are willing to co-sign the racist thoughts of others.
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scorpeao
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,521
Location: NorCal USA
Jun 25, 2014 21:04:54 GMT
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Post by scorpeao on Nov 12, 2020 16:11:23 GMT
You realize this is exactly what the Trump crowd does, right? You realize this is just a laundry list of stuff that I see mostly the GOP do. Both of you could, at the very least, read the second sentence in my first paragraph again. Doesn't change what I wrote.
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