luckyjune
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,685
Location: In the rainy, rainy WA
Jul 22, 2017 4:59:41 GMT
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Post by luckyjune on Oct 8, 2023 0:44:36 GMT
My nephew is serving his 2 years in the Israeli Army. He just went in at the end of August. We just heard that he is going off to combat. ☹️. Prayers please for his safety. Hamas is a terrorist organization. Sending thoughts of safety and a quick end to fighting for your nephew and all others involved.
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Post by hopemax on Oct 8, 2023 1:29:40 GMT
What's scary is that Israel is supposed to have a world class intelligence operation, and this went seemingly completely undetected. Completely unrelated to this situation I saw a tweet that essentially said, "I hope this is the result of a high level of corruption and graft, because the alternative (we do not have the skills to do this competently anymore) is scarier to contemplate." That's sort of how I feel here, although all possibilities are horrifying. We depend on certain institutions to function and one of the intents of the current bend of geopolitical politics is to tear down these institutions across multiple countries. Another random tweet I saw the last few days was showing how much global poverty, literacy, health outcomes, etc. has improved during the last 78 years; the time it has been since major world powers fought a direct war against each other. One of these situations is going to get out of hand before we know it, and the "before times" is going to mean something else, than the half-joke we've made it over the last almost 4 years. In addition to the motivation connection to the normalization of relations with Israel and other Middle East countries, it sounds like Russia has had their hand in this particular cookie jar via the relationship with Iran and directly with Hamas. Certain quarters are already playing the "US can't properly support Israel and Ukraine," card, and we will have to reject that at every turn as it seems unlikely that this isn't part of the same strategy to divide and weaken Western democracy.
Also, sending to good thoughts to Elaine, and even though she is not here right now, thoughts to Allipeas as I remembered that she mentioned her SIL lived in Gaza.
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Oct 8, 2023 1:50:26 GMT
hopemax thank you for your wise words. Some where I posted wondering if the blabbermouth shared more then we know and who they shared with. I am just not sure it is a total Israeli failure. There are also members of our Congress, House and Senate who are seeming to undermine our best interests. Endangering our military readiness!
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Oct 8, 2023 2:15:27 GMT
CNN: Jake Tapper is about to interview a mother whose two teenagers were taken hostage.
CNN is also reporting 300 killed..
ETA: She said they took her 16 and 12 year olds out of their beds. It was about 5am there..
She said they took 2 yr olds, those who were 80. She thinks hundreds were taken.
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Oct 8, 2023 2:51:42 GMT
Doesn’t Israel have a much more sophisticated military than Hamas? I’m having a hard time understanding why this would be a long drawn out war like Israel is saying. Or why the assumption is that the US will need to send them all kinds of money and aid.
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Post by hopemax on Oct 8, 2023 3:03:09 GMT
Doesn’t Israel have a much more sophisticated military than Hamas? I’m having a hard time understanding why this would be a long drawn out war like Israel is saying. Or why the assumption is that the US will need to send them all kinds of money and aid. There will likely be a domino effect. Hamas isn’t the only threat to Israel. Hezbollah (Lebanese militant group) is also itching for a conflict and they are funded and supplied by Iran. Also potentially Syria, which is supported by Iran and Russia.
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used2scrap
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,036
Jan 29, 2016 3:02:55 GMT
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Post by used2scrap on Oct 8, 2023 3:09:12 GMT
Doesn’t Israel have a much more sophisticated military than Hamas? I’m having a hard time understanding why this would be a long drawn out war like Israel is saying. Or why the assumption is that the US will need to send them all kinds of money and aid. This will spread past just the Gaza territories.
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valincal
Drama Llama
Southern Alberta
Posts: 5,632
Jun 27, 2014 2:21:22 GMT
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Post by valincal on Oct 8, 2023 3:24:03 GMT
The clips and stories are horrific. 😔 elaine I hope your nephew stays safe. How frightening for his family.
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Nanner
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,963
Jun 25, 2014 23:13:23 GMT
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Post by Nanner on Oct 8, 2023 13:09:55 GMT
My nephew is serving his 2 years in the Israeli Army. He just went in at the end of August. We just heard that he is going off to combat. ☹️. Prayers please for his safety. Hamas is a terrorist organization. I hope your nephew will be safe and well. And the rest of your family as well.
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Post by elaine on Oct 8, 2023 15:05:25 GMT
Doesn’t Israel have a much more sophisticated military than Hamas? I’m having a hard time understanding why this would be a long drawn out war like Israel is saying. Or why the assumption is that the US will need to send them all kinds of money and aid. Hamas has taken hundreds of hostages, including children. Unless Israel wants to sacrifice those hostages, it will take a long time to extract them.
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Post by elaine on Oct 8, 2023 15:14:24 GMT
Thank you, everyone, for your well wishes for my nephew. My sister, her husband, and 4 of my other nieces and nephews live an hour outside of Jerusalem. My oldest niece just had her first baby on Thursday.
My cousin’s teenage son is in Israel with a youth group - they went over for the holidays. He sent a picture of himself in an underground bunker.
We are worried sick.
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lizacreates
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,856
Aug 29, 2015 2:39:19 GMT
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Post by lizacreates on Oct 8, 2023 15:16:58 GMT
This is an interesting analysis of the situation. www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/10/07/israel-hamas-attack-00120498“ Dennis Ross: I think the main reason this is happening now is because of the prospect of the U.S.-Saudi-Israeli deal. Hamas understands this is a huge transformative event, and they are trying to create a circumstance where it will be difficult for Saudi Arabia to do it right. This is not spur of the moment. What’s interesting is you had the Iranian supreme leader giving a speech this past week where he attacks the idea of normalization with the Zionist entity. This attack was clearly something planned over a long period of time: the fact that they had hang gliders, they had prepared to breach the fence, they did a barrage of rockets as a way of overwhelming Israel’s air defense system, Iron Dome.” That makes sense; we will have to see if it is accurate. That deal was unlikely to materialize anyway. It requires ratification by Congress, and a number of Dem senators have already advised Biden of the conditions they believe should be met by both Saudi Arabia and Israel. Go to page one and read the entirety of paragraph 4: Normalization Letter . Bibi’s present far-right coalition would never agree to those conditions. Note the specific portion that reads “ …dismantle illegal outposts (including those that have been retroactively “legalized”)…” That pertains to the very controversial “Area C” in the West Bank which has been under full administrative control of Israel. Under the Oslo agreement in the ‘90s, it was to be transitioned to Palestinian control. It never happened, and it’s highly improbable that it would happen now just to make a “normalization deal” with Saudi Arabia, a country that has never recognized Israeli sovereignty. Also, you can clearly tell from the letter that the senators are not keen on giving the Saudis a security agreement (for excellent reasons, and I personally believe that bin Salman is not a man to be trusted). Hamas attacked Israel for what? A deal that has no real potential to succeed? And even in the unlikely event that it does and the conditions itemized by the senators can be met by Israel, that actually benefits Palestinians! All Hamas has done is reignite a war and the killings of innocents on both sides. (There’s no doubt in my mind that Iran is behind this. They’ve always had a hand in funding and arming Hamas. Even if the US-Israel-Saudi deal was a steep uphill climb, the fact that it MIGHT happen was already a threat to Iran.)
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lizacreates
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,856
Aug 29, 2015 2:39:19 GMT
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Post by lizacreates on Oct 8, 2023 15:28:56 GMT
elaine , it’s my sincerest wish and hope that your family will be safe.
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Post by mom on Oct 8, 2023 15:31:45 GMT
elaine I have been thinking of you and your entire family. Im praying for their safety and for peace.
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mimix3
Junior Member
Posts: 97
Jun 15, 2020 0:56:27 GMT
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Post by mimix3 on Oct 8, 2023 15:38:54 GMT
At the risk of sounding stupid, I want to know what the ramifications of this is to the US. I feel like I need to be prepared for something but I don't know what or how to prepare. Does that make sense? I am terrified for the people of Israel and I am shocked that this is still happening. Have we (humanity) not learned anything?
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scrappinmama
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,872
Jun 26, 2014 12:54:09 GMT
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Post by scrappinmama on Oct 8, 2023 16:22:05 GMT
Elaine, praying for your nephew! The news today is even more horrific than yesterday. Over 600 Israilis killed so far. Hostages are still in danger. Who knows how many of them are still alive at this point. I'm worried what the impact will be worldwide. This can potentially cause a domino effect far beyond Israel. And just how did Hamas find the intelligence to break through? Please don't let it have been leaked from Trump to Russia.
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Post by hopemax on Oct 8, 2023 17:01:53 GMT
At the risk of sounding stupid, I want to know what the ramifications of this is to the US. I feel like I need to be prepared for something but I don't know what or how to prepare. Does that make sense? I am terrified for the people of Israel and I am shocked that this is still happening. Have we (humanity) not learned anything? Energy and resource markets will be the immediate effect. So expect prices for certain goods like oil and raw materials to wage war (which have other purposes) to rise, making inflation harder to fight. The US Military, especially the Navy may be called upon as reinforcements and a deterring presence in the Eastern Med. The biggest threat remains our own political chaos. The fact that we have no Speaker of the House, no Ambassador to Israel, an acting Chief of Navy Operations, many more military promotions delayed is a clear & present danger to US and global security. It didn’t take long for the lies to start spreading and when prices start climbing again, many Americans will lean into believing that it’s Biden’s fault because it’s quick and easy. Make sure your financial house is in order. Maybe prioritize necessary maintenance and replacements you might have been ignoring because it’s more fun to spend money on fun. Pay attention and resist propaganda because it gives you a buzz in the moment. That’s about all we can do and hope this isn’t another step toward the inevitability of WWIII.
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Post by mollycoddle on Oct 8, 2023 17:09:29 GMT
This is an interesting analysis of the situation. www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/10/07/israel-hamas-attack-00120498“ Dennis Ross: I think the main reason this is happening now is because of the prospect of the U.S.-Saudi-Israeli deal. Hamas understands this is a huge transformative event, and they are trying to create a circumstance where it will be difficult for Saudi Arabia to do it right. This is not spur of the moment. What’s interesting is you had the Iranian supreme leader giving a speech this past week where he attacks the idea of normalization with the Zionist entity. This attack was clearly something planned over a long period of time: the fact that they had hang gliders, they had prepared to breach the fence, they did a barrage of rockets as a way of overwhelming Israel’s air defense system, Iron Dome.” That makes sense; we will have to see if it is accurate. That deal was unlikely to materialize anyway. It requires ratification by Congress, and a number of Dem senators have already advised Biden of the conditions they believe should be met by both Saudi Arabia and Israel. Go to page one and read the entirety of paragraph 4: Normalization Letter . Bibi’s present far-right coalition would never agree to those conditions. Note the specific portion that reads “ …dismantle illegal outposts (including those that have been retroactively “legalized”)…” That pertains to the very controversial “Area C” in the West Bank which has been under full administrative control of Israel. Under the Oslo agreement in the ‘90s, it was to be transitioned to Palestinian control. It never happened, and it’s highly improbable that it would happen now just to make a “normalization deal” with Saudi Arabia, a country that has never recognized Israeli sovereignty. Also, you can clearly tell from the letter that the senators are not keen on giving the Saudis a security agreement (for excellent reasons, and I personally believe that bin Salman is not a man to be trusted). Hamas attacked Israel for what? A deal that has no real potential to succeed? And even in the unlikely event that it does and the conditions itemized by the senators can be met by Israel, that actually benefits Palestinians! All Hamas has done is reignite a war and the killings of innocents on both sides. (There’s no doubt in my mind that Iran is behind this. They’ve always had a hand in funding and arming Hamas. Even if the US-Israel-Saudi deal was a steep uphill climb, the fact that it MIGHT happen was already a threat to Iran.) I agree that Iran is likely behind this. It was very well coordinated. The Iranians know that Hamas is always up for a fight. The fact that it escaped Israeli intelligence is mind-boggling. And it is a shame about the deal with the Saudis. It very likely would not have worked out, but now we will probably never know. I wish that a more moderate PM was leading Israel, esp. right now. This is very worrisome.
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Post by hopemax on Oct 8, 2023 17:33:09 GMT
In case, the Tweet doesn't show for everyone... This is a statement in the support of Israel by Sec Def Austin. The USS Gerald Ford carrier group will move to the Eastern Mediterranean. The US is also supplying the IDF with equipment and resources including munitions. x.com/NatashaBertrand/status/1711070639300251674?s=20
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Post by snowsilver on Oct 8, 2023 17:36:21 GMT
It's not only the breakdown in Israel's intelligence that stuns me--it's our own! Clearly we are just as caught with our pants down as anyone else. How did WE not know about this and warn Israel??
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Post by hopemax on Oct 8, 2023 17:51:12 GMT
It's not only the breakdown in Israel's intelligence that stuns me--it's our own! Clearly we are just as caught with our pants down as anyone else. How did WE not know about this and warn Israel?? I've seen some speculation that Hezbollah was even taken by surprise, which is why they haven't done more than shoot their mouths and a few rockets off. Intentionally, because Hamas planners knew that if it expanded to Hezbollah knowledge the risk was much higher that Israeli, UK, US intelligence, etc. would pick up on it. So if this was a closely held op, our intelligence resources may have not been positioned to pick up on the chatter. Especially, because it appears that the loose lips from TFG has endangered global Intelligence resources including deaths of assets, and replacements may not be where the action was. We can't be everywhere at once, and our attention is clearly on more direct threats to the US (China, Iran) and the Ukraine situation and should be able to rely on Israel protecting its own house given their capabilities and the ever present threat Hamas is to Israel.
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lizacreates
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,856
Aug 29, 2015 2:39:19 GMT
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Post by lizacreates on Oct 8, 2023 17:54:47 GMT
That deal was unlikely to materialize anyway. It requires ratification by Congress, and a number of Dem senators have already advised Biden of the conditions they believe should be met by both Saudi Arabia and Israel. Go to page one and read the entirety of paragraph 4: Normalization Letter . Bibi’s present far-right coalition would never agree to those conditions. Note the specific portion that reads “ …dismantle illegal outposts (including those that have been retroactively “legalized”)…” That pertains to the very controversial “Area C” in the West Bank which has been under full administrative control of Israel. Under the Oslo agreement in the ‘90s, it was to be transitioned to Palestinian control. It never happened, and it’s highly improbable that it would happen now just to make a “normalization deal” with Saudi Arabia, a country that has never recognized Israeli sovereignty. Also, you can clearly tell from the letter that the senators are not keen on giving the Saudis a security agreement (for excellent reasons, and I personally believe that bin Salman is not a man to be trusted). Hamas attacked Israel for what? A deal that has no real potential to succeed? And even in the unlikely event that it does and the conditions itemized by the senators can be met by Israel, that actually benefits Palestinians! All Hamas has done is reignite a war and the killings of innocents on both sides. (There’s no doubt in my mind that Iran is behind this. They’ve always had a hand in funding and arming Hamas. Even if the US-Israel-Saudi deal was a steep uphill climb, the fact that it MIGHT happen was already a threat to Iran.) I agree that Iran is likely behind this. It was very well coordinated. The Iranians know that Hamas is always up for a fight. The fact that it escaped Israeli intelligence is mind-boggling. And it is a shame about the deal with the Saudis. It very likely would not have worked out, but now we will probably never know. I wish that a more moderate PM was leading Israel, esp. right now. This is very worrisome. Not that I’m necessarily disagreeing with you because I’m not. However, I don’t think a moderate coalition would really make a difference. There have been moderates before on both sides in the past. Regardless, workable solutions that can be accepted and implemented by ALL parties evade even the best and brightest of our foreign policy experts. What else can we do? As far as I can remember, there has never been sustainable peace in that region. Maybe a détente occasionally, but it’s always been a tinderbox where a slight spark can ignite an inferno. Intervention by the US at various times during the past decades has amounted to very little and the bloodshed continues. Many of us who are older likely recall the efforts of Bill Clinton in the Oslo peace accords that were originally facilitated by Norway. There was an incredible amount of hope and expectation then that this would lead to something truly significant, maybe a solid pathway to a peace that was always elusive. Remember all those front page pics showing the momentous handshake between Rabin and Arafat at the White House lawn? It was the first time, I think, that we’d heard of the term “two-state solution,” creating a Palestinian state from the areas that were occupied by Israel in the ‘60s. What happened? Extreme violence from both sides erupted, and if I recall correctly, our news then were filled with reports of suicide bombings by Islamic Jihad and Hamas. When Rabin was assassinated and Peres took over, there was an iota of renewed hope, maybe? But nothing of substance ever materialized. This gives me no pleasure to say, but I harbor no illusions that there’ll ever be permanent peace there. I can only hope.
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teddyw
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,833
Member is Online
Jun 29, 2014 1:56:04 GMT
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Post by teddyw on Oct 8, 2023 17:59:12 GMT
Thank you, everyone, for your well wishes for my nephew. My sister, her husband, and 4 of my other nieces and nephews live an hour outside of Jerusalem. My oldest niece just had her first baby on Thursday. My cousin’s teenage son is in Israel with a youth group - they went over for the holidays. He sent a picture of himself in an underground bunker. We are worried sick. Praying for your family and keeping you in my thoughts. Most of my friend’s and her dh’s entire families are there. She said his is not ok and she’d talk to me tomorrow when we see each other. I can’t imagine the fear & worry you all must have.
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Post by femalebusiness on Oct 8, 2023 18:04:10 GMT
Sadly I agree. It will never stop only slow down at times then heat back up.
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Post by uksue on Oct 8, 2023 18:21:58 GMT
The whole situation in that area is heartbreaking. The way Palestinians have been treated historically and recently is also wrong. The violence all round is appalling. I can't see this ever being resolved.
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Post by femalebusiness on Oct 8, 2023 18:24:32 GMT
The whole situation in that area is heartbreaking. The way Palestinians have been treated is also wrong. The violence all round is appalling. I can't see this ever being resolved. Yes and it is always the innocents on both side who suffer. The leaders on both sides sit in their ivory castles and rein terror on the citizens.
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Post by Merge on Oct 8, 2023 18:38:23 GMT
elaine or anyone else who might know - where can we best direct donation money to help those who have been affected? Is there anything else we can do that would be helpful?
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huskergal
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,990
Jun 25, 2014 20:22:13 GMT
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Post by huskergal on Oct 8, 2023 18:51:25 GMT
Elaine: Praying for your nephew's safety. This situation is frightening!
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Post by mollycoddle on Oct 8, 2023 20:29:18 GMT
I agree that Iran is likely behind this. It was very well coordinated. The Iranians know that Hamas is always up for a fight. The fact that it escaped Israeli intelligence is mind-boggling. And it is a shame about the deal with the Saudis. It very likely would not have worked out, but now we will probably never know. I wish that a more moderate PM was leading Israel, esp. right now. This is very worrisome. Not that I’m necessarily disagreeing with you because I’m not. However, I don’t think a moderate coalition would really make a difference. There have been moderates before on both sides in the past. Regardless, workable solutions that can be accepted and implemented by ALL parties evade even the best and brightest of our foreign policy experts. What else can we do? As far as I can remember, there has never been sustainable peace in that region. Maybe a détente occasionally, but it’s always been a tinderbox where a slight spark can ignite an inferno. Intervention by the US at various times during the past decades has amounted to very little and the bloodshed continues. Many of us who are older likely recall the efforts of Bill Clinton in the Oslo peace accords that were originally facilitated by Norway. There was an incredible amount of hope and expectation then that this would lead to something truly significant, maybe a solid pathway to a peace that was always elusive. Remember all those front page pics showing the momentous handshake between Rabin and Arafat at the White House lawn? It was the first time, I think, that we’d heard of the term “two-state solution,” creating a Palestinian state from the areas that were occupied by Israel in the ‘60s. What happened? Extreme violence from both sides erupted, and if I recall correctly, our news then were filled with reports of suicide bombings by Islamic Jihad and Hamas. When Rabin was assassinated and Peres took over, there was an iota of renewed hope, maybe? But nothing of substance ever materialized. This gives me no pleasure to say, but I harbor no illusions that there’ll ever be permanent peace there. I can only hope. I have a cursory knowledge of the situation regarding secular Israelis and religious Israelis, but since the Supreme Court imbroglio have been trying to learn more about it. So my opinion is just that. I am afraid that the far right in Bibi’s coalition will persuade him to flatten Gaza, which in addition to a lot of death( including perhaps many of the hostages), could lead to other horrible outcomes-like other nations getting involved. I agree about the situation regarding the Palestinians. And I do remember that reluctant handshake. How many years ago was that? A long time. But of course that is a topic for another day. Right now I am worried about what happens next. This will get much worse. And as an aside, I am really concerned about how all of those terrorists were able to get into so many towns and villages. That is very bad indeed. ETA: www.threads.net/@kaitlancollins/post/CyJlp6wRQhR/?igshid=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ==
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Post by smasonnc on Oct 8, 2023 20:56:16 GMT
Republicans are blaming Biden for releasing that money to Iran for the return of our citizens for what is happening in Israel. I read none of the money has been spent. This is the State Department Spokesperson. Matthew Miller…. ”Let's be clear: the deal to bring U.S. citizens home from Iran has nothing to do with the horrific attack on Israel. Not a penny has been spent, and when it is, it can only go for humanitarian needs like food and medicine. Anything to the contrary is false.” I'm in Europe right now. It looks like our government is doing damage control, but the press here are critical of the deal and the response by the Biden adminstration. I'm so sorry for the people of Israel. The images are horrific.
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