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Post by revirdsuba99 on Oct 10, 2023 1:13:13 GMT
Rachel Maddow just showed a video, at a family's request showing a kidnapping. So many other videos are blurring faces, but as hard as it is, showing people being taken alive it is very important! It is evidence that they are alive if they are not returned safely.
Hope I said that right. It is just all so sad.
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Post by elaine on Oct 10, 2023 1:18:02 GMT
I feel this way as well. The history is very complicated and can't be ignored, even though obviously this week Hamas was the aggressor. I don't understand why it has been that *we* need to support everything Israel does or else be considered to be anti-Semitic. IMO, Israel has not always been innocent and has not treated Palestinians well, which is likely what has been a big part of what is happening now. However, Hamas also has an anti-Jewish section of their manifesto so to speak, so it doesn't seem like their hatred is only aimed at Israeli's (which is what makes me also fear for actions around the world). I feel horribly for the innocent people on both sides and wish there could be a good solution that would make both sides happy. At this point I am not sure what exactly the goal of Hamas is. The same as it’s always been. Destroy the State of Israel and murder all the Jews. This. Very much this. That is Hamas’ manifesto. It isn’t complicated and it hasn’t changed. I think that people are confusing Hamas - a terrorist organization like Al Qaeda - with a Palestinian governing body, which it has never been, nor disguised itself as.
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scrappinghappy
Pearl Clutcher
“I’m late, I’m late for a very important date. No time to say “Hello.” Goodbye. I’m late...."
Posts: 4,306
Jun 26, 2014 19:30:06 GMT
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Post by scrappinghappy on Oct 10, 2023 1:29:12 GMT
As a very lefty Jew, I am really hating all of this. Having a far-right government in charge of Israel and keeping Gaza in a box is unacceptable. Kidnapping and killing Jewish kids is unacceptable. We're likely to end up with a war now in which a ton of civilians get killed. I am so upset and have nothing helpful to say. My recent research on a two state solution comes up showing that the majority of Palestinians do not want a two state solution. They will only be happy if they have all the land from the Jordan river to the Mediterranean Sea. I don't know what the solution is but it breaks my heart to see the suffering of children on both sides. My facebook feed is filled with posts from family and friends in Israel either begging for information on loved ones or posting about the loss of a loved one. No-one is untouched. elaine I hope your nephew and the rest of your family remain safe. Golda Meir said two very wise things: "you cannot negotiate peace with someone who has come to kill you" and “When peace comes we will perhaps in time be able to forgive the Arabs for killing our sons, but it will be harder for us to forgive them for having forced us to kill their sons. Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.”
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scrappinghappy
Pearl Clutcher
“I’m late, I’m late for a very important date. No time to say “Hello.” Goodbye. I’m late...."
Posts: 4,306
Jun 26, 2014 19:30:06 GMT
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Post by scrappinghappy on Oct 10, 2023 1:50:12 GMT
The same as it’s always been. Destroy the State of Israel and murder all the Jews. This. Very much this. That is Hamas’ manifesto. It isn’t complicated and it hasn’t changed. I think that people are confusing Hamas - a terrorist organization like Al Qaeda - with a Palestinian governing body, which it has never been, nor disguised itself as. Bold is mine. Simply put, although nothing in the Middle East is simple, Hamas won the election in the Gaza strip in 2006 to form a new government so it was a governing body. They have not allowed elections since. The Oslo Accords which were, and still are, very controversial granted Palestine self-rule in the Gaza Strip and West Bank. They were supposed to be an interim agreement with control being handed over within 5-10 years. Israel still has control of the West Bank from a security standpoint and in some regions even has total control. It gave up control of the Gaza Strip in 2005. Hamas refuses to acknowledge the Oslo Accords. Want to know exactly what Hamas wants? Read the main points of the Hamas Covenant hereThe Covenant is a comprehensive manifesto comprised of 36 separate articles, all of which promote the basic HAMAS goal of destroying the State of Israel through Jihad (Islamic Holy War).
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Oct 10, 2023 1:50:17 GMT
The same as it’s always been. Destroy the State of Israel and murder all the Jews. This. Very much this. That is Hamas’ manifesto. It isn’t complicated and it hasn’t changed. I think that people are confusing Hamas - a terrorist organization like Al Qaeda - with a Palestinian governing body, which it has never been, nor disguised itself as. I read that Hamas is the governing body of Palestine. Are you saying that isn’t true? Or that they aren’t “really” governing the way that you would think, even though technically they are said to be the leaders of Palestinians? ETA scrappinghappy thanks for sharing that. Most of the comments that I see on social media supporting Palestine refer to the way that Israel treats Palestinians, and that they need to be free (I assume from the control of Israel). They don’t necessarily state support for Hamas. I hadn’t heard of their covenant until tonight on cnn but after reading it above it definitely is clear that their attacks are likely not meant to simply get land back or get better treatment for the people. I think Palestinians need to be free from Hamas but also more humane treatment by Israel. How do average Palestinians feel about the situation and Hamas?
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pantsonfire
Pearl Clutcher
Take a step back, evaluate what is important, and enjoy your life with those who you love.
Posts: 4,762
Jun 19, 2022 16:48:04 GMT
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Post by pantsonfire on Oct 10, 2023 2:00:27 GMT
This. Very much this. That is Hamas’ manifesto. It isn’t complicated and it hasn’t changed. I think that people are confusing Hamas - a terrorist organization like Al Qaeda - with a Palestinian governing body, which it has never been, nor disguised itself as. I read that Hamas is the governing body of Palestine. Are you saying that isn’t true? Or that they aren’t “really” governing the way that you would think, even though technically they are said to be the leaders of Palestinians? Hamas hasn't allowed any elections. He isn't governing. He is allowing death and famine to occur ubder his watch. He is super controling and isnt helping. He is using his people to get what he wants.
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Post by elaine on Oct 10, 2023 2:05:49 GMT
I read that Hamas is the governing body of Palestine. Are you saying that isn’t true? Or that they aren’t “really” governing the way that you would think, even though technically they are said to be the leaders of Palestinians? Hamas hasn't allowed any elections. He isn't governing. He is allowing death and famine to occur ubder his watch. He is super controling and isnt helping. He is using his people to get what he wants. Hamas isn’t a person, it is an organization.
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Post by elaine on Oct 10, 2023 2:16:07 GMT
This. Very much this. That is Hamas’ manifesto. It isn’t complicated and it hasn’t changed. I think that people are confusing Hamas - a terrorist organization like Al Qaeda - with a Palestinian governing body, which it has never been, nor disguised itself as. I read that Hamas is the governing body of Palestine. Are you saying that isn’t true? Or that they aren’t “really” governing the way that you would think, even though technically they are said to be the leaders of Palestinians? ETA scrappinghappy thanks for sharing that. Most of the comments that I see on social media supporting Palestine refer to the way that Israel treats Palestinians, and that they need to be free (I assume from the control of Israel). They don’t necessarily state support for Hamas. I hadn’t heard of their covenant until tonight on cnn but after reading it above it definitely is clear that their attacks are likely not meant to simply get land back or get better treatment for the people. I think Palestinians need to be free from Hamas but also more humane treatment by Israel. How do average Palestinians feel about the situation and Hamas? Yes.
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scrappinghappy
Pearl Clutcher
“I’m late, I’m late for a very important date. No time to say “Hello.” Goodbye. I’m late...."
Posts: 4,306
Jun 26, 2014 19:30:06 GMT
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Post by scrappinghappy on Oct 10, 2023 2:23:19 GMT
This. Very much this. That is Hamas’ manifesto. It isn’t complicated and it hasn’t changed. I think that people are confusing Hamas - a terrorist organization like Al Qaeda - with a Palestinian governing body, which it has never been, nor disguised itself as. I read that Hamas is the governing body of Palestine. Are you saying that isn’t true? Or that they aren’t “really” governing the way that you would think, even though technically they are said to be the leaders of Palestinians? ETA scrappinghappy thanks for sharing that. Most of the comments that I see on social media supporting Palestine refer to the way that Israel treats Palestinians, and that they need to be free (I assume from the control of Israel). They don’t necessarily state support for Hamas. I hadn’t heard of their covenant until tonight on cnn but after reading it above it definitely is clear that their attacks are likely not meant to simply get land back or get better treatment for the people. I think Palestinians need to be free from Hamas but also more humane treatment by Israel. How do average Palestinians feel about the situation and Hamas? Again, bold is mine. Hamas has de facto control of the Gaza Strip. They no longer do much governing. The West Bank is divided into three areas. Those areas are either administered in part by the Palestinian Authority (they have civilian control) and Israel (security control) or completely by Israel. The PA is officially the State of Palestine.
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Post by myshelly on Oct 10, 2023 2:24:29 GMT
I read that Hamas is the governing body of Palestine. Are you saying that isn’t true? Or that they aren’t “really” governing the way that you would think, even though technically they are said to be the leaders of Palestinians? Hamas hasn't allowed any elections. He isn't governing. He is allowing death and famine to occur ubder his watch. He is super controling and isnt helping. He is using his people to get what he wants. Who is the “he” you are referring to? Hamas isn’t a person.
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pantsonfire
Pearl Clutcher
Take a step back, evaluate what is important, and enjoy your life with those who you love.
Posts: 4,762
Jun 19, 2022 16:48:04 GMT
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Post by pantsonfire on Oct 10, 2023 2:44:58 GMT
Hamas hasn't allowed any elections. He isn't governing. He is allowing death and famine to occur ubder his watch. He is super controling and isnt helping. He is using his people to get what he wants. Hamas isn’t a person, it is an organization. Yes sorry about that. Thanks for correcting
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pantsonfire
Pearl Clutcher
Take a step back, evaluate what is important, and enjoy your life with those who you love.
Posts: 4,762
Jun 19, 2022 16:48:04 GMT
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Post by pantsonfire on Oct 10, 2023 2:45:38 GMT
Hamas hasn't allowed any elections. He isn't governing. He is allowing death and famine to occur ubder his watch. He is super controling and isnt helping. He is using his people to get what he wants. Who is the “he” you are referring to? Hamas isn’t a person. The group. Sorry I worded it wrong
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Post by monklady123 on Oct 10, 2023 10:24:59 GMT
Anyone else having a hard time because you too are both siding this event? Israel has every right to retaliation but I hate that the government has taken away water, food, electricity. And if they were to take our Gaza, all these innocent lives will be lost. And the Palestinians are at threat but then so are Israelis. It's like that whole area, those people, those communities are f-cked either way you look. It just makes me sad. And very mad. Yes Hamas needs to be taken out as well as that terrorist group but I hate to think how many more lives will be lost. I feel this way as well. The history is very complicated and can't be ignored, even though obviously this week Hamas was the aggressor. I don't understand why it has been that *we* need to support everything Israel does or else be considered to be anti-Semitic. IMO, Israel has not always been innocent and has not treated Palestinians well, which is likely what has been a big part of what is happening now. However, Hamas also has an anti-Jewish section of their manifesto so to speak, so it doesn't seem like their hatred is only aimed at Israeli's (which is what makes me also fear for actions around the world). I feel horribly for the innocent people on both sides and wish there could be a good solution that would make both sides happy. At this point I am not sure what exactly the goal of Hamas is. It really is easy to understand. There's no "so to speak". The goal of Hamas, exactly, is to eradicate the Jewish people and destroy Israel. They have nothing in common with the ordinary Palestinians. At least not the ordinary ones who I met the last time I was in Israel. Yes, both sides in this conflict have done awful things to the other side. But that has nothing to do with a terrorist attack by a terrorist organization.
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Post by roundtwo on Oct 10, 2023 16:35:50 GMT
I subscribe to The Line so I am not sure if this article is behind the paywall. The writer very clearly illustrates, imho, how the lack of real news and real facts has messed up telling us the real story. His references to Germany during WWII are so disturbing to me - just a couple of weeks ago, there was a thread here asking if any one thought they were brave enough to try and make a difference during the holocaust. I think the answer is very obvious now - the number of people gleefully celebrating the terrorists is just incredibly mind-boggling to me. Eighteen years ago, Israel surrendered the Gaza Strip. They ordered, and sometimes forcibly removed, Israeli citizens out of the area. Palestinian leaders took control politically and agreed to democratic elections every four years. There has not been an election since the very first one. Security was to be a combined effort between Israel and Palestine. Food, building supplies, medical goods and foreign aid flowed freely. And what has been built in Gaza? What infrastructure? What hospitals? Water plants? Manufacturing? There has been money for "martyrs" and their families after they kill Israelis. There has been money to build underground tunnels to attack Israel from within. And on it goes. Hamas stores weapons in schools and hospitals and mosques and then cries foul when they are destroyed. Anyway, as the article above says: "Some people out there who have a decent (or better) sense of what happened last weekend will simply think the Jews had it coming, because that’s just how they see the world, and always will. Others may squirm a bit about what a massacre actually looks like on a livestream, but will remain sufficiently opposed to Israel and its policies to temper their criticisms of Hamas. I don't spend any time or energy thinking about these people. I accept the sincerity of their beliefs and won't waste a moment trying to fix them." Here is the link to the article - This time, Twitter was real life
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oh yvonne
Prolific Pea
Posts: 7,996
Jun 26, 2014 0:45:23 GMT
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Post by oh yvonne on Oct 10, 2023 16:52:35 GMT
Elaine, I pray your family and loved ones come out of this safely, I'm devastated that this is all happening and your loved ones are in harm's way.
I saw a video yesterday (unintentionally) of a Palestinian man hold his deceased infant in his arms. This man held up the baby before him, saying that this was his sacrifice to the cause. How TF do you fight that...kind of of evil? Its unspeakable horror.
What a fked up world.
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Post by FuzzyMutt on Oct 10, 2023 17:17:01 GMT
As a very lefty Jew, I am really hating all of this. Having a far-right government in charge of Israel and keeping Gaza in a box is unacceptable. Kidnapping and killing Jewish kids is unacceptable. We're likely to end up with a war now in which a ton of civilians get killed. I am so upset and have nothing helpful to say. My recent research on a two state solution comes up showing that the majority of Palestinians do not want a two state solution. They will only be happy if they have all the land from the Jordan river to the Mediterranean Sea. I don't know what the solution is but it breaks my heart to see the suffering of children on both sides. My facebook feed is filled with posts from family and friends in Israel either begging for information on loved ones or posting about the loss of a loved one. No-one is untouched. elaine I hope your nephew and the rest of your family remain safe. Golda Meir said two very wise things: "you cannot negotiate peace with someone who has come to kill you" and “When peace comes we will perhaps in time be able to forgive the Arabs for killing our sons, but it will be harder for us to forgive them for having forced us to kill their sons. Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.” How sadly true, in both cases that Golda Meir is likely right. So many "leaders" want to kill others, even at the expense of their own, not just Arabs. I do pray for all the innocents, of all religions, nationalities and backgrounds. I sometimes wish I had the childlike innocence to feel there was a way to just let the bad guys fight it out and leave everyone else out of it. So horrifically sad that that isn't possible.
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Post by onelasttime on Oct 10, 2023 18:03:09 GMT
Some musings on twitter…
This from Ragip Soylu…
”Former Israeli Defense Minister Moshe Ya'alon:
"I call on the opposition not to form an emergency government with Netanyahu, but to demand his resignation.
He was warned several times, he did not let the Chief of Staff speak to the Cabinet.
There is no trust in him, how can you lead a people to war like this?
Every hour he remains in office is a detriment to the country"
Prompted this from Herb N Roots Regrows..
“I wonder if Hamas would have attacked like this had Netanyahu not returned to power. They saw the opposition to him & the chaos he created. There are bitter resentments towards Bibi from all the bombs he’s dropped on Gaza in his tenure as Prime Minister To end the war,remove Bibi”
&
“I 💜 Frannie”
”More like if he wasn’t in power the conditions in Israel wouldn’t let this happen. He’s the one who the intelligence and military community warned his judicial overhaul was putting Israel ar risk. That the enemy was seeing this as an opportunity”
&
“Complaints Department…”
“Did Netanyahu prevent IDF from rapidly stopping the initial Hama attack? As an example: Trump prevented our National Guard from quickly stopping the Jan. 6th insurrection.”
What if the attack in the Gaza by Hamas was orchestrated by Iran and Russia to pull attention and potential aid away from Ukraine? I mean if Russia was such a superpower they would beaten Ukraine by now. But they are struggling.
This made me think of that
Josh Hawley…
“Israel is facing existential threat. Any funding for Ukraine should be redirected to Israel immediately”
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teddyw
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,833
Jun 29, 2014 1:56:04 GMT
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Post by teddyw on Oct 10, 2023 20:11:10 GMT
The whole situation is awful. My friend’s nephew & wife were killed but they hid their twin babies first. The babies were found 12 hours later. Her dh already left to help with his elderly parents because his sister is now caring for the babies.
I can’t even fathom going there during this but when it’s your family you just do it.
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Oct 10, 2023 20:59:06 GMT
Be careful watching the news with children around. The reports are becoming very detailed and graphic
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Oct 10, 2023 21:12:05 GMT
Be careful watching the news with children around. The reports are becoming very detailed and graphic This morning on CNN they said that the Israeli government had recommended that people (especially kids) delete tik tok because there may be graphic videos coming out from Hamas. I was wondering if that might be a good recommendation here as well. It’s not something I want my kids to come across.
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Post by snowsilver on Oct 10, 2023 21:15:33 GMT
I can understand to some degree those who have sympathies with the Palestinians as they have had a very hard lot, esp. in the Gaza Strip. But I cannot understand any sympathy with Hamas. roundtwo gave a very good synopsis of the situation at the Gaza Strip. Israel has made concessions due to pressure from the rest of the world and it has never worked out to their benefit. I, at this point, have no sympathy at all with Hamas and none who are marching in support of the organization either! Do you know they beheaded babies the other night!! I repeat--BABIES!! And as Elaine pointed out--the slaughter of teenagers attending a music festival simply cannot be justified. These people are terrorists. No other word. And yet, in Australia their sympathizers marched in the streets a couple nights ago with signs reading "Gas the Jews!" HOW do you sympathize with that in any way. Instead of sympathy, it should freeze the blood in your veins in horror.
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Post by myshelly on Oct 10, 2023 21:22:15 GMT
Be careful watching the news with children around. The reports are becoming very detailed and graphic This morning on CNN they said that the Israeli government had recommended that people (especially kids) delete tik tok because there may be graphic videos coming out from Hamas. I was wondering if that might be a good recommendation here as well. It’s not something I want my kids to come across. Yes. Twitter and Tik Tok are both sending messages that parents should delete their apps so kids don’t come across the images from this conflict. There are extremely graphic images of the beheaded babies and other atrocities.
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Oct 10, 2023 21:23:09 GMT
snowsilverNot just babies, at least 20 including toddlers, two and under. toddlers are aware...
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Oct 10, 2023 21:26:05 GMT
Yes. Twitter and Tik Tok are both sending messages that parents should delete their apps so kids don’t come across the images from this conflict. There are extremely graphic images of the beheaded babies and other atrocities.
They are sending out videos of the hostages and the conditions they are in. Videos of rapes and bodies of soldiers..
Yesterday TFG was jovial at his rally talking about it and literally danced of the stage.
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inkedup
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,837
Jun 26, 2014 5:00:26 GMT
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Post by inkedup on Oct 10, 2023 21:27:50 GMT
My nephew is serving his 2 years in the Israeli Army. He just went in at the end of August. We just heard that he is going off to combat. ☹️. Prayers please for his safety. Hamas is a terrorist organization. Sending love to you, Israel, and all the innocents caught up in this horrifying attack. May your nephew stay safe ❤️
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Post by Tearisci on Oct 10, 2023 22:01:18 GMT
I made the mistake of signing onto X and there are images you can't get out of your head. How anyone can kill innocent babies and kids. I just can't...
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Post by elaine on Oct 10, 2023 22:26:45 GMT
The whole situation is awful. My friend’s nephew & wife were killed but they hid their twin babies first. The babies were found 12 hours later. Her dh already left to help with his elderly parents because his sister is now caring for the babies. I can’t even fathom going there during this but when it’s your family you just do it. 😭😭😭 I have no words. May their memories be for a blessing.
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Just T
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,544
Jun 26, 2014 1:20:09 GMT
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Post by Just T on Oct 10, 2023 22:37:12 GMT
The whole situation is awful. My friend’s nephew & wife were killed but they hid their twin babies first. The babies were found 12 hours later. Her dh already left to help with his elderly parents because his sister is now caring for the babies. I can’t even fathom going there during this but when it’s your family you just do it. 😭😭😭 I have no words. May their memories be for a blessing. OMG. So awful. elaine, I'm so sorry for what your family is experiencing. I cannot even fathom any of this. I have a friend whose daughter who lives in Tel Aviv with her husband and two little girls, and her facebook posts are so heartbreaking. I was watching CNN a bit ago, and they interviewed a man who said his grandmother had been killed by Hamas, and they took her phone, videotaped her murder, then posted the video on her facebook from her phone so that all of her family and friends saw the video. I don't want to watch the news because it makes me literally feel sick. But I feel like I must. It's too horrifying for words.
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pinklady
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,526
Nov 14, 2016 23:47:03 GMT
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Post by pinklady on Oct 10, 2023 22:37:41 GMT
I made the mistake of signing onto X and there are images you can't get out of your head. How anyone can kill innocent babies and kids. I just can't... Just curious, when you look at twitter are you on the "following" tab or the "for you" tab. I stick strictly to the "following" tab and I have not seen any of these horrific images...which I don't want to see. In general on twitter, I don't see all of the disinformation but I think that is because I stick to the "following" tab.
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Post by Tearisci on Oct 10, 2023 22:39:40 GMT
I made the mistake of signing onto X and there are images you can't get out of your head. How anyone can kill innocent babies and kids. I just can't... Just curious, when you look at twitter are you on the "following" tab or the "for you" tab. I stick strictly to the "following" tab and I have not seen any of these horrific images...which I don't want to see. In general on twitter, I don't see all of the disinformation but I think that is because I stick to the "following" tab. I went to the hashtag and clicked on a hashtag about the war. Don't do it is all I can say.
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