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Post by revirdsuba99 on Oct 17, 2023 19:01:28 GMT
Part of the meeting in the middleast or cancelled after bombing of hospital in Gaza. 100s dead..total collapse KHAN YOUNIS, Gaza Strip (AP) — A senior Palestinian official says President Mahmoud Abbas has canceled his participation in a meeting scheduled Wednesday with President Joe Biden and other Mideast leaders.Abbas was scheduled to join Jordan’s King Abdullah II and Egyptian President Abdel Fattah el-Sissi at Wednesday’s summit in Amman, Jordan, where they are to discuss the latest Israel-Hamas war with Biden. But the senior official said Abbas was withdrawing to protest an alleged Israeli airstrike on a hospital in Gaza that Hamas health officials say has killed over 500 people. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because the cancelation has not been formally announced. THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. AP’s earlier story follows below. KHAN YOUNIS, Gaza Strip (AP) — The Health Ministry run by Hamas said an Israeli airstrike on Tuesday hit a Gaza City hospital packed with wounded and other Palestinians seeking shelter, killing hundreds. If confirmed, the attack would be by far the deadliest Israeli airstrike in five wars fought since 2008. apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-hamas-war-biden-rafah-e062825a375d9eb62e95509cab95b80c
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Post by hopemax on Oct 17, 2023 20:12:26 GMT
So far OSINT accounts has been identifying which of the posted videos are old. There does seem to be confirmation that Hamas was in the midst of launching a missile barrage at the time the hospital was struck, and that in general there is a 30%ish failure rate for Hamas' launches.
However since the news of the hospital, these things are happening:
Mass protests against Abbas in Ramallah.
Protestors gathering at the Israeli embassy in Amman, Jordan, with reports of an attempted breach.
Israel has told its citizens to leave Turkey, ASAP.
Reminders that what is at risk is that we reach a point where who did what, ultimately doesn't matter.
IDF is reported as saying it was a failed rocket launched by Palestinian Islamic Jihad (another group operating in Gaza), but I imagine many will desire independent confirmation.
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Oct 17, 2023 21:15:55 GMT
I have a feeling that with the Israeli general saying they hope to have more involvement from Hezbollah, the US is going to get pulled into a larger war. Although I don’t understand why we are treating this differently than Ukraine and Russia in terms of not having troops involved.
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Post by hopemax on Oct 17, 2023 21:44:24 GMT
Update on the OSINT investigation. Video from multiple angles shows a barrage launched from Gaza. One rocket is either intercepted or suffered a malfunction (still debate about this point), breaks in two, with the warhead impacting the roof of the hospital.
If someone wants to read one of the threads (which has links to others).
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Post by hopemax on Oct 17, 2023 21:58:30 GMT
I have a feeling that with the Israeli general saying they hope to have more involvement from Hezbollah, the US is going to get pulled into a larger war. Although I don’t understand why we are treating this differently than Ukraine and Russia in terms of not having troops involved. The US has a long standing defense agreement with Israel that did not exist between the US and Ukraine. US troops does not change any balance of power in the same way. Also, the nuclear part of the equation. If Iran had them, it would complicate the situation immensely. Israel has to ask though. But short of a major escalation I think they would rather handle it in house, with the US fleet looking all menacing off shore.
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Oct 18, 2023 1:41:28 GMT
I have a feeling that with the Israeli general saying they hope to have more involvement from Hezbollah, the US is going to get pulled into a larger war. Although I don’t understand why we are treating this differently than Ukraine and Russia in terms of not having troops involved. The US has a long standing defense agreement with Israel that did not exist between the US and Ukraine. US troops does not change any balance of power in the same way. Also, the nuclear part of the equation. If Iran had them, it would complicate the situation immensely. Israel has to ask though. But short of a major escalation I think they would rather handle it in house, with the US fleet looking all menacing off shore. Didn't we also have an agreement with Ukraine (Russia was also part of this) that was made when they agreed to get rid of their nuclear weapons?
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Post by hopemax on Oct 18, 2023 2:18:51 GMT
The US has a long standing defense agreement with Israel that did not exist between the US and Ukraine. US troops does not change any balance of power in the same way. Also, the nuclear part of the equation. If Iran had them, it would complicate the situation immensely. Israel has to ask though. But short of a major escalation I think they would rather handle it in house, with the US fleet looking all menacing off shore. Didn't we also have an agreement with Ukraine (Russia was also part of this) that was made when they agreed to get rid of their nuclear weapons? In the Budapest Memorandum the US, UK and Russia agreed on "security assurances." Meaning they would respect Ukraine's borders and sovereignty. The terminology that gets you military backup is apparently "security guarantee." Ukraine tried to negotiate for this back in 1994, but that is not what was ultimately signed, and they were aware of the limitations of the lesser term. The US has a security guarantee with the NATO countries, Japan and South Korea. It is what Saudi Arabia was seeking in exchange for normalizing relations with Israel. Israel & the US don't have a security guarantee, but has signed multiple bilateral defense cooperation agreements and they have been designated by US law a Major Non-NATO ally which also gives them benefits.
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Post by hopemax on Oct 18, 2023 7:41:38 GMT
Another OSINT update… in daylight, it is clear that there is no impact crater. The hospital is intact, 3 cars in the parking lot suffered a large impact, consistent with getting hit by rocket debris, but the rest of the damage is from the resulting fire. Several accounts expressing doubt that 500 people could have been killed, as was reported by Hamas and repeated by lots of media.
Meanwhile all the Arab countries were quick to blame Israel, so it seems like Hamas got what they were after.
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RosieKat
Drama Llama
PeaJect #12
Posts: 5,385
Jun 25, 2014 19:28:04 GMT
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Post by RosieKat on Oct 18, 2023 15:04:02 GMT
Another OSINT update… in daylight, it is clear that there is no impact crater. The hospital is intact, 3 cars in the parking lot suffered a large impact, consistent with getting hit by rocket debris, but the rest of the damage is from the resulting fire. Several accounts expressing doubt that 500 people could have been killed, as was reported by Hamas and repeated by lots of media. Meanwhile all the Arab countries were quick to blame Israel, so it seems like Hamas got what they were after. Yes, it looks like the independent verification* is leaning towards it being non-Israeli in origin, whether Hamas or Islamic Jihad or whomever. Also, it technically wasn't the hospital that got hit, but a courtyard - in which many, many people were sheltering, so the outcome is still terrible - but using the phrase "hospital was hit" definitely conjures different visuals than "a courtyard by the hospital was hit." It is sounding to me like this was a tragic event caused by Hamas/Islamic Jihad, with a quick thinking and effective public disinformation crusade following. *Independent even from US sources, which I am generally assuming are biased at least a bit towards the Israel supporting side.
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lizacreates
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,856
Aug 29, 2015 2:39:19 GMT
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Post by lizacreates on Oct 18, 2023 15:21:01 GMT
Russia and N Korea are blaming the US. Republicans are attacking Biden for the crisis. The Taoiseach is criticizing von der Leyen’s statement and condemning Israel for collective punishment. EU countries are divided on diplomatic responses. Across the Middle East, the US is being blamed. There’s outrage everywhere and protests have broken out all across the region. From Asia to Africa, to South America, to Europe, countries are pointing fingers.
This exchange of recriminations amongst countries and factions is not constructive. It’s understandable (and even expected) that tensions are running high everywhere, but it’s like the world is convulsing and going mad. We’re rapidly reaching a point of no return here where we’re staring into an abyss. Iran has threatened unleashing hellfire if Israel goes ahead with a ground incursion into Gaza. Biden’s visit seems to have temporarily delayed the incursion, but for how long no one knows. Lebanon’s Hezbollah is spoiling for a fight, and they have around 150,000 rockets and missiles already aimed at Israel that will overwhelm Israel’s Iron Dome. That will mean more Israeli lives lost. The Pentagon has served notice to 2,000 troops to be ready for deployment. Although it’s currently for advisory and medical purposes only and not active combat, if Iran makes good on its threat, America has no choice but to defend Israel.
There is a catastrophic humanitarian crisis in both north and south Gaza, and hospitals are warning they are running out of fuel to keep their generators running. Thousands more will die. Airstrikes are also occurring in the south where over a million Gazans had fled; some are returning to Gaza City as a result. (The Israeli military on Tuesday released a statement saying that warplanes had struck “dozens of terror targets” throughout Gaza, including in Rafah and Khan Younis, two southern cities where Gazans have fled as anticipation grows of an Israeli ground invasion.) There’s a deadlock at the Rafah border with Egypt, and aid cannot get in. The violence in the West Bank is escalating.
A ceasefire has to be brokered now. Whether it’s the US, the EU, Turkey, Egypt, Jordan, or whichever Middle East country can help, every leader needs to find a way to end this. Qatar has supported Hamas before, but it has also shown in 2014 that it can mediate a truce. It needs to step up again. Same with Egypt. And Jordan is right in cancelling the summit with Biden…now is not the time to hold a summit. Now is the time to aggressively work toward a ceasefire.
I can understand the desire for revenge. I understand the fury. I understand the need to eliminate Hamas. I understand there really aren’t good options anywhere. But in trying to kill monsters, we cannot become monsters as well. The US must prevail upon Israel, and the Arab nations must prevail upon Hamas, to stop the exchange of fire, for Hamas to free the hostages, and for Israel to allow humanitarian aid to enter Gaza. We need to put humanity first.
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Oct 18, 2023 15:46:26 GMT
Russia and N Korea are blaming the US. Republicans are attacking Biden for the crisis. The Taoiseach is criticizing von der Leyen’s statement and condemning Israel for collective punishment. EU countries are divided on diplomatic responses. Across the Middle East, the US is being blamed. There’s outrage everywhere and protests have broken out all across the region. From Asia to Africa, to South America, to Europe, countries are pointing fingers. This exchange of recriminations amongst countries and factions is not constructive. It’s understandable (and even expected) that tensions are running high everywhere, but it’s like the world is convulsing and going mad. We’re rapidly reaching a point of no return here where we’re staring into an abyss. Iran has threatened unleashing hellfire if Israel goes ahead with a ground incursion into Gaza. Biden’s visit seems to have temporarily delayed the incursion, but for how long no one knows. Lebanon’s Hezbollah is spoiling for a fight, and they have around 150,000 rockets and missiles already aimed at Israel that will overwhelm Israel’s Iron Dome. That will mean more Israeli lives lost. The Pentagon has served notice to 2,000 troops to be ready for deployment. Although it’s currently for advisory and medical purposes only and not active combat, if Iran makes good on its threat, America has no choice but to defend Israel. There is a catastrophic humanitarian crisis in both north and south Gaza, and hospitals are warning they are running out of fuel to keep their generators running. Thousands more will die. Airstrikes are also occurring in the south where over a million Gazans had fled; some are returning to Gaza City as a result. (The Israeli military on Tuesday released a statement saying that warplanes had struck “dozens of terror targets” throughout Gaza, including in Rafah and Khan Younis, two southern cities where Gazans have fled as anticipation grows of an Israeli ground invasion.) There’s a deadlock at the Rafah border with Egypt, and aid cannot get in. The violence in the West Bank is escalating. A ceasefire has to be brokered now. Whether it’s the US, the EU, Turkey, Egypt, Jordan, or whichever Middle East country can help, every leader needs to find a way to end this. Qatar has supported Hamas before, but it has also shown in 2014 that it can mediate a truce. It needs to step up again. Same with Egypt. And Jordan is right in cancelling the summit with Biden…now is not the time to hold a summit. Now is the time to aggressively work toward a ceasefire. I can understand the desire for revenge. I understand the fury. I understand the need to eliminate Hamas. I understand there really aren’t good options anywhere. But in trying to kill monsters, we cannot become monsters as well. The US must prevail upon Israel, and the Arab nations must prevail upon Hamas, to stop the exchange of fire, for Hamas to free the hostages, and for Israel to allow humanitarian aid to enter Gaza. We need to put humanity first. I’m curious why you think the cancellation of the meeting with Biden should have been cancelled. To me, it seems that it’s needed more than ever, especially if the were going to talk about getting people out of Gaza. What am I missing?
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lizacreates
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,856
Aug 29, 2015 2:39:19 GMT
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Post by lizacreates on Oct 18, 2023 16:07:13 GMT
I’m curious why you think the cancellation of the meeting with Biden should have been cancelled. To me, it seems that it’s needed more than ever, especially if the were going to talk about getting people out of Gaza. What am I missing? Because of the Al-Ahli bombing. What will the summit accomplish at this point? Rightly or wrongly, Abdullah, el-Sisi and Abbas are blaming Israel for the bombing. Biden’s visit is seen as a continuation of US’s unconditional support for Israel at the expense of Palestinian suffering. There’s too much enmity right now. And there's no getting Gazans out of Gaza.
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Post by onelasttime on Oct 18, 2023 17:24:56 GMT
I’m curious why you think the cancellation of the meeting with Biden should have been cancelled. To me, it seems that it’s needed more than ever, especially if the were going to talk about getting people out of Gaza. What am I missing? Because of the Al-Ahli bombing. What will the summit accomplish at this point? Rightly or wrongly, Abdullah, el-Sisi and Abbas are blaming Israel for the bombing. Biden’s visit is seen as a continuation of US’s unconditional support for Israel at the expense of Palestinian suffering. There’s too much enmity right now. And there's no getting Gazans out of Gaza. So do nothing a let more people die. Ok.
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Post by dewryce on Oct 18, 2023 17:39:21 GMT
Because of the Al-Ahli bombing. What will the summit accomplish at this point? Rightly or wrongly, Abdullah, el-Sisi and Abbas are blaming Israel for the bombing. Biden’s visit is seen as a continuation of US’s unconditional support for Israel at the expense of Palestinian suffering. There’s too much enmity right now. And there's no getting Gazans out of Gaza. So do nothing a let more people die. Ok. Yes, that’s exactly what she meant when she said that particular summit should be cancelled. Come on, do better than being purposefully obtuse. If you had kept reading you would see what she thinks needs to happen, she seems to sincerely be trying to have a real conversation and deserves more than a flippant, accusatory answer. I, for one, appreciate those that are so that I can learn and see differing points of view.
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lizacreates
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,856
Aug 29, 2015 2:39:19 GMT
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Post by lizacreates on Oct 18, 2023 18:07:18 GMT
Because of the Al-Ahli bombing. What will the summit accomplish at this point? Rightly or wrongly, Abdullah, el-Sisi and Abbas are blaming Israel for the bombing. Biden’s visit is seen as a continuation of US’s unconditional support for Israel at the expense of Palestinian suffering. There’s too much enmity right now. And there's no getting Gazans out of Gaza. So do nothing a let more people die. Ok. Your sarcastic implied accusation against me is outrageous. My recommendation to you is before you unleash your ignorance, it will behoove you to FULLY READ FIRST before striking. I know your penchant for abbreviated tweets may have soured you on longer posts. In this instance, however, you would have been better served to expand your limited ability. My stance is based on the belief that if this war expands we’re looking at much more bloodshed than what’s occurring now. And no matter how much more carnage is exacted by both sides, none of it is a solution to a decades-long festering problem. A ceasefire will not solve it either, but it will at least save both Israelis’ and Palestinians’ lives, and that’s why I advocate it. My belief is that all parties with influence need to pull everybody back from the brink of a total catastrophe. Both sides are committing war crimes at the moment. Cooler heads need to prevail or we’ll have another major war on top of the ongoing Ukraine war.
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Oct 19, 2023 6:37:56 GMT
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Post by mollycoddle on Oct 19, 2023 10:27:14 GMT
So do nothing a let more people die. Ok. Your sarcastic implied accusation against me is outrageous. My recommendation to you is before you unleash your ignorance, it will behoove you to FULLY READ FIRST before striking. I know your penchant for abbreviated tweets may have soured you on longer posts. In this instance, however, you would have been better served to expand your limited ability. My stance is based on the belief that if this war expands we’re looking at much more bloodshed than what’s occurring now. And no matter how much more carnage is exacted by both sides, none of it is a solution to a decades-long festering problem. A ceasefire will not solve it either, but it will at least save both Israelis’ and Palestinians’ lives, and that’s why I advocate it. My belief is that all parties with influence need to pull everybody back from the brink of a total catastrophe. Both sides are committing war crimes at the moment. Cooler heads need to prevail or we’ll have another major war on top of the ongoing Ukraine war. I am also very worried about that. Hamas clearly wants to goad the Israelis into invading Gaza, and hopefully (from their perspective) drawing in Hezbollah and possibly Iran. This could very well turn into a disaster. The issue, of course, is that that the Israelis understandably want the hostages back. Hamas has really set this up. They are monsters.
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