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Post by annabella on Jan 20, 2015 19:01:12 GMT
I am currently reading the book. I have no doubt that the man is a patriot and served his country well, but his behavior upon his return to the states bothers me. I have a hard separating that from his service. When he got back after he served, he either was a supreme asshole or he is a liar. I'm not gung-ho on either option. Not that his family or anyone else cares about my opinion. ITA What are your thoughts on the Jesse Ventura story?
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loco coco
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,662
Jun 26, 2014 16:15:45 GMT
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Post by loco coco on Jan 20, 2015 19:02:35 GMT
But have you ever done any research about the actual man or are you basing your opinion on the movie. That's the problem I have. The vast majority of people praising this movie are doing so with no actual knowledge of anything beyond the movie. I think it's very simplistic to see him as any kind of hero. That kind of simple mindedness is America's biggest problem. I've never served in the war. But I know many men and women who have. And I'm very familiar with Chris's story. It isn't unusual that their selfless service done while deployed is often contradicted by their assholish actions when they return back home. To completely discount and discredit a veteran's or active duty soldier's service because they've said some controversial things or acted out dishonorably is something that those who have no idea what war can to do a person do. exactly this
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Deleted
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Jun 2, 2024 5:53:47 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2015 19:09:59 GMT
You believe what you want you will not change my mind an But have you ever done any research about the actual man or are you basing your opinion on the movie. That's the problem I have. The vast majority of people praising this movie are doing so with no actual knowledge of anything beyond the movie. I think it's very simplistic to see him as any kind of hero. That kind of simple mindedness is America's biggest problem. I had no knowledge of the movie and Chris Kyle beforehand. I enjoyed it based on just watching it. Sometimes, that's enough.
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Post by pretzels on Jan 20, 2015 19:12:00 GMT
I am currently reading the book. I have no doubt that the man is a patriot and served his country well, but his behavior upon his return to the states bothers me. I have a hard separating that from his service. When he got back after he served, he either was a supreme asshole or he is a liar. I'm not gung-ho on either option. Not that his family or anyone else cares about my opinion. I saw "Unbroken" on Sunday night (I read the book when it first came out), and the difference between these two people and how they reacted to their personal traumas is just staggering. It wasn't directly addressed in the movie (other than to mention that he did suffer from PTSD), but I seem to remember that Louis became an alcoholic and his marriage suffered for it. He eventually got it together, though. I don't know that Kyle ever did, but then again, he died in a sudden, tragic manner, so maybe he didn't have the chance. Just curious, do you know anyone who has returned from serving in the war? It's not talked about a lot, but the time prior to deployment and the time when a soldier returns home is incredibly difficult (understatement) on the soldier and his family. Many of our guys have served back to back tours. Some guys deploy for six months, others nine months and it used to be 15 months until a couple years back. It's a long time to be in a war zone. My father served in the Vietnam War, so yes. You can be a patriot and an asshole. I think this guy happened to be both, and I don't get lauding him as a human being. As a soldier, yes. As a person, no way.
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Post by pretzels on Jan 20, 2015 19:13:40 GMT
I am currently reading the book. I have no doubt that the man is a patriot and served his country well, but his behavior upon his return to the states bothers me. I have a hard separating that from his service. When he got back after he served, he either was a supreme asshole or he is a liar. I'm not gung-ho on either option. Not that his family or anyone else cares about my opinion. ITA What are your thoughts on the Jesse Ventura story? From what I've read, he did name Jesse Ventura on the Larry King Show, I think? I think if a jury found him guilty of defamation than that's what happened. And I personally do not believe that punching anyone is an option, ever. ETA that I'm not a lawyer, but I was a journalist in my previous life. Jesse Ventura is a public figure, so the charge of finding Kyle guilty (or responsible for damages) would be doubly hard to prove. The fact that the jury did find for Ventura makes me believe that the case was pretty solid.
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Post by pretzels on Jan 20, 2015 19:18:50 GMT
I think it was an outstanding movie! A true patriot. I have never been too a movie where it was completely silent at the end. The credits started to roll people stayed in their seats and nobody spoke. It was an incredible movie. I don't think Chris Kelly was a sniper because he liked to kill people, more like he loved his country and choose to be one of those brave ones that defend this awesome country we live in. Very powerful movie. That's exactly what the movie wants you to think. But if you read statements he actually made himself he comes across completely differently. That's why I have a huge problem with this movie - people are basing their opinion in this military propaganda piece and not investigating the truth about this man. People would rather believe he's a superhero bc that's the easy thing to believe. I agree with this partially. He became a soldier because he hurt himself rodeoing and wasn't that into college. He did ranching for a while, but basically the military was a fallback. I do think that for someone to give up his family and serve in danger is a patriotic act, but I don't think he became a soldier because he was all "Yay America." In the book, it was just his only viable choice left.
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conchita
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,141
Jul 1, 2014 11:25:58 GMT
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Post by conchita on Jan 20, 2015 19:21:53 GMT
Just curious, do you know anyone who has returned from serving in the war? It's not talked about a lot, but the time prior to deployment and the time when a soldier returns home is incredibly difficult (understatement) on the soldier and his family. Many of our guys have served back to back tours. Some guys deploy for six months, others nine months and it used to be 15 months until a couple years back. It's a long time to be in a war zone. My father served in the Vietnam War, so yes. You can be a patriot and an asshole. I think this guy happened to be both, and I don't get lauding him as a human being. As a soldier, yes. As a person, no way. It *is* difficult to reconcile the idea of the soldier off at war serving honorably then returning home and being abusive to his wife and children, being an alcoholic, etcetera... But focusing on the war itself, giving people a glimpse of the daily assault these guys survive under, helps us understand PTSD better. It helps me understand why the suicidal rate is so high. Many of our soldiers serve, give their all, survive and come back home but never really make it back home.
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Post by pretzels on Jan 20, 2015 19:22:16 GMT
I am not coming down on either side, but this is a piece that explains the issues some have with Kyle. linkThe above quote is where I am at... The gushing about how wonderful this man was is disturbing to me.
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Post by pretzels on Jan 20, 2015 19:23:40 GMT
My father served in the Vietnam War, so yes. You can be a patriot and an asshole. I think this guy happened to be both, and I don't get lauding him as a human being. As a soldier, yes. As a person, no way. It *is* difficult to reconcile the idea of the soldier off at war serving honorably then returning home and being abusive to his wife and children, being an alcoholic, etcetera... But focusing on the war itself, giving people a glimpse of the daily assault these guys survive under, helps us understand PTSD better. It helps me understand why the suicidal rate is so high. Many of our soldiers serve, give their all, survive and come back home but never really make it back home. But that is not what I'm seeing from people who see this movie. It's not the moral ambiguity of the whole thing, but "OMG, Chris Kyle is the MAN. He was the best guy ever!" That upsets me.
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IAmUnoriginal
Pearl Clutcher
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Jun 25, 2014 23:27:45 GMT
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Post by IAmUnoriginal on Jan 20, 2015 19:29:38 GMT
I think Chris Kyle was a very disturbed person who chose to be a sniper because he liked to kill, not because he was a patriot and I don't think we should glorify him. I'm in the Seth Rogan camp about this movie. How many Special Forces service members have you been exposed to? Theirs is an entirely different mindset than your average service member. Their training is intense and turns them into what you've seen portrayed. What they do keeps us safe and secure, and most of the time, we have no idea that they've acted. DH's best friend is now supporting a SEAL unit as a Seabee (read the book, they are mentioned a couple times), I got to meet several of the guys he works with on our last visit with him. Egotistical doesn't begin to cover it. Chris Kyle went in as a Texas ranch hand. He already had an ego and the SEAL training made it even bigger. Speaking with the SEALs we met, the same attitude that comes across in the book and movie were present in all of them. They don't like killing, and I don't believe Chris Kyle did, either. They like that they have crazy skills that allow them to do their jobs. They love honing those skills. They like eliminating the enemy while keeping our other troops safe. To do this type of dangerous job, the love of your country has to be huge. Why else would you put your life on the line every time you left the safety of your home? They take their commitment to their country and each other seriously. Theirs is a job that has to exist, even if you don't particularly like what their job is. They are trained to kill -- with a firearm, with other weapons and even with their hands. You and Seth Rogan can keep spouting off and enjoy the freedoms that their service provides you while you sleep safely tucked in at night. Others of us will be thankful that they are there and willing to do what the vast majority of us wouldn't be able to handle. ETA: While reading the book, I said to DH, "This guy was a jackass." He said "He was a SEAL. You've met some. You've met some EOD. Your friends is an Airborne Ranger with 20+ years in. You're surprised by this? There's a reason SEALs can't stay married, dear." Ha. He was a jerk. I'll give you that. But, he was a damn fine SEAL.
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conchita
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,141
Jul 1, 2014 11:25:58 GMT
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Post by conchita on Jan 20, 2015 19:38:34 GMT
I am currently reading the book. I have no doubt that the man is a patriot and served his country well, but his behavior upon his return to the states bothers me. I have a hard separating that from his service. When he got back after he served, he either was a supreme asshole or he is a liar. I'm not gung-ho on either option. Not that his family or anyone else cares about my opinion. ITA What are your thoughts on the Jesse Ventura story? You didn't ask me specifically but Jesse continued with his lawsuit after Chris's death. His widow and children's estate were sued and Chris was no longer around to defend himself. There were witnesses, but since they were all in a bar drinking, their accounts were discredited.
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Post by cadoodlebug on Jan 20, 2015 19:40:44 GMT
We're leaving in about 10 minutes to see it ~ I'll check back when we return.
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Deleted
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Jun 2, 2024 5:53:47 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2015 19:41:32 GMT
I think it was an outstanding movie! A true patriot. I have never been too a movie where it was completely silent at the end. The credits started to roll people stayed in their seats and nobody spoke. It was an incredible movie. I don't think Chris Kelly was a sniper because he liked to kill people, more like he loved his country and choose to be one of those brave ones that defend this awesome country we live in. Very powerful movie. That's exactly what the movie wants you to think. But if you read statements he actually made himself he comes across completely differently. That's why I have a huge problem with this movie - people are basing their opinion in this military propaganda piece and not investigating the truth about this man. People would rather believe he's a superhero bc that's the easy thing to believe. And you have read the book, right? Not just the "statements" pulled from it, completely out of context, right? You know men who have served this country, right? You know men who have devoted their lives to the greater good and have been gravely wounded, physically and emotionally, and would do it again in a heartbeat, for each and every one of us? I'm betting I know the answers... My husbands grandfather was a WWII sniper who was shot at the battle of the bulge, laid for days in a shell crater while he stuffed snow in his gaping wounds. He survived by the grace of God, lost his left arm. He was a complete mess for years and years. He gave all of himself for this country. He barely came out the other side, but eventually he did. On his death bed he cried to my husband, terrified that he would be going to hell for the men that he killed 50 years before. I am so honored to have known him for a few years. He was a true hero...just like Chris Kyle. None of them take the taking of another life lightly. But they saved countless others by doing so. We need men like them. We need to support them, not judge them. So I think you need to step back and think before you open your mouth again. Men like Chris Kyle, and my husbands grandfather, are the very best of us. I dread seeing this movie, but only because I don't know if I can handle the emotions. Saving private Ryan came out the week we buried the great man I just spoke of, and I barely made it through that. I don't have anyone close to me who has fought in these wars, but my husband knows many, including several who knew Chris. I will see it though. Next week.
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Post by pretzels on Jan 20, 2015 19:46:35 GMT
That's exactly what the movie wants you to think. But if you read statements he actually made himself he comes across completely differently. That's why I have a huge problem with this movie - people are basing their opinion in this military propaganda piece and not investigating the truth about this man. People would rather believe he's a superhero bc that's the easy thing to believe. And you have read the book, right? Not just the "statements" pulled from it, completely out of context, right? You know men who have served this country, right? You know men who have devoted their lives to the greater good and have been gravely wounded, physically and emotionally, and would do it again in a heartbeat, for each and every one of us? I'm betting I know the answers... My husbands grandfather was a WWII sniper who was shot at the battle of the bulge, laid for days in a shell crater while he stuffed snow in his gaping wounds. He survived by the grace of God, lost his left arm. He was a complete mess for years and years. He gave all of himself for this country. He barely came out the other side, but eventually he did. On his death bed he cried to my husband, terrified that he would be going to hell for the men that he killed 50 years before. I am so honored to have known him for a few years. He was a true hero...just like Chris Kyle. None of them take the taking of another life lightly. But they saved countless others by doing so. We need men like them. We need to support them, not judge them. So I think you need to step back and think before you open your mouth again. Men like Chris Kyle, and my husbands grandfather, are the very best of us. I dread seeing this movie, but only because I don't know if I can handle the emotions. Saving private Ryan came out the week we buried the great man I just spoke of, and I barely made it through that. I don't have anyone close to me who has fought in these wars, but my husband knows many, including several who knew Chris. I will see it though. Next week. Did your DH's grandfather come back from war, regularly and randomly beat up men in bars and brag that he shot looters in Louisiana after Hurricane Katrina? Chris Kyle was a hero in the military, but he was a pretty crappy human being. I am in the middle of reading the book. I will not see the movie. The book is him, unfiltered. The Hollywood version is pretty cleaned up, from what I am hearing. And my father, as I said above, served in the Vietnam War. That makes it OK for me to speak my beliefs, here in AMERICA, right?
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valincal
Drama Llama
Southern Alberta
Posts: 5,650
Jun 27, 2014 2:21:22 GMT
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Post by valincal on Jan 20, 2015 19:49:10 GMT
I'll be seeing "American Sniper" on Saturday night with my ladies meetup.com group ... They voted for it I'll admit that I'm a bit nervous because "Platoon" and "Saving Private Ryan" both really stuck with me for a long time Have you seen "American Sniper"? What did you think about it? Aren't you glad you asked?
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Post by myshelly on Jan 20, 2015 19:53:25 GMT
That's exactly what the movie wants you to think. But if you read statements he actually made himself he comes across completely differently. That's why I have a huge problem with this movie - people are basing their opinion in this military propaganda piece and not investigating the truth about this man. People would rather believe he's a superhero bc that's the easy thing to believe. And you have read the book, right? Not just the "statements" pulled from it, completely out of context, right? You know men who have served this country, right? You know men who have devoted their lives to the greater good and have been gravely wounded, physically and emotionally, and would do it again in a heartbeat, for each and every one of us? I'm betting I know the answers... My husbands grandfather was a WWII sniper who was shot at the battle of the bulge, laid for days in a shell crater while he stuffed snow in his gaping wounds. He survived by the grace of God, lost his left arm. He was a complete mess for years and years. He gave all of himself for this country. He barely came out the other side, but eventually he did. On his death bed he cried to my husband, terrified that he would be going to hell for the men that he killed 50 years before. I am so honored to have known him for a few years. He was a true hero...just like Chris Kyle. None of them take the taking of another life lightly. But they saved countless others by doing so. We need men like them. We need to support them, not judge them. So I think you need to step back and think before you open your mouth again. Men like Chris Kyle, and my husbands grandfather, are the very best of us. I dread seeing this movie, but only because I don't know if I can handle the emotions. Saving private Ryan came out the week we buried the great man I just spoke of, and I barely made it through that. I don't have anyone close to me who has fought in these wars, but my husband knows many, including several who knew Chris. I will see it though. Next week. Yes, I read the book. Yes, I have multiple family members who have served in the military. Active duty in war zones. I lost a friend in Iraq. I would never, ever compare any of them to Chris Kyle. My father in law is a Purple Heart and Bronze Star veteran. When his company was ambushed during a battle, instead of retreating he ran back towards the fire and saved two wounded service men and was seriously wounded himself in the process. No, I do not believe Chris Kyle is the best of us. Probably not the answers you were expecting.
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Post by anxiousmom on Jan 20, 2015 20:04:20 GMT
Somewhere around the 4th of July (I think it was) I asked what patriotism looks like to each one of us and the answers were across the board. All of us had an answer, but there weren't a whole lot of points in common. I suspect that colors what people think of this movie...what is patriotism? what would we do in the name of patriotism? how would we react when others don't live up to our ideals of patriotism? how do we except other patriots to act in the name of being patriotic? etc.
I admit, I haven't seen the movie or read the books, but back when he died there was a LOT of news coverage due to how it happened. I read a lot about him then. What stood out to me was that he was a flawed man, who did a difficult job that many disparaged.
I want to see the movie and I want to read the book and decide for myself if the movie is pure propaganda or if it is a tribute to a man who, while flawed, did his job to the best of his ability and at the detriment of his personal life.
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Deleted
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Jun 2, 2024 5:53:47 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2015 20:14:30 GMT
I think Chris Kyle was a very disturbed person who chose to be a sniper because he liked to kill, not because he was a patriot and I don't think we should glorify him. I'm in the Seth Rogan camp about this movie. And people like Chris Kyle fought to give you the right to have that opinion. We need our military and they need our support. Shame on you and Seth Rogan....
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Post by myshelly on Jan 20, 2015 20:31:13 GMT
I think Chris Kyle was a very disturbed person who chose to be a sniper because he liked to kill, not because he was a patriot and I don't think we should glorify him. I'm in the Seth Rogan camp about this movie. And people like Chris Kyle fought to give you the right to have that opinion. We need our military and they need our support. Shame on you and Seth Rogan.... No military needs blind support. I support the military. I don't think most people in the military acted the way Chris Kyle acted. Being in the military doesn't give you immunity to being judged. And I think comments like yours only help to prove my point. People are having a hard time separating knowing the truth about one disturbed individual from supporting our troops. Having an opinion about Chris Kyle doesn't mean I don't support the troops. But blindly supporting him without knowing facts outside the movie does show a disturbing lack of critical thinking skills.
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Post by pretzels on Jan 20, 2015 20:44:11 GMT
I think Chris Kyle was a very disturbed person who chose to be a sniper because he liked to kill, not because he was a patriot and I don't think we should glorify him. I'm in the Seth Rogan camp about this movie. And people like Chris Kyle fought to give you the right to have that opinion. We need our military and they need our support. Shame on you and Seth Rogan.... You don't see the irony in what you're doing? Chastising someone for having an opinion, while praising the military for keeping our country free... Apparently, it's only free if you share the same opinion as everyone else. I don't think that's what those soldiers are fighting for at all.
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Post by originalvanillabean on Jan 20, 2015 20:53:22 GMT
@busypea - thanks for that link.
I am looking forward to this movie, but will probably wait until it is out of the theatre.
Interesting dialogue on this.
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Post by Tamhugh on Jan 20, 2015 22:06:15 GMT
I haven't seen the movie and I don't know that I want to. I have a hard time with war movies.
Years ago, before he died, I remember there being a lot of controversy about whether his stories were accurate. Friends and family members who are military all seemed to dismiss him as someone who was bragging and exaggerating. Then he died and it all seemed to go away. This past weekend, DH and our boys saw the movie and I mentioned that to them. Older DS said he felt that the movie did a good job of showing that he was an imperfect guy with some questionable motives, while celebrating his service. Did anyone else get that from the movie?
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back to *pea*ality
Pearl Clutcher
Not my circus, not my monkeys ~refugee pea #59
Posts: 3,149
Jun 25, 2014 19:51:11 GMT
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Post by back to *pea*ality on Jan 20, 2015 22:16:00 GMT
Years ago, DH read his book and was very moved by it so before the movie came out, I knew about Chris Kyle. We could not get tickets to see it last weekend, it was sold out everywhere. Seems to be the case this weekend too so we may do a mid week date night next week.
Michael Moore and Seth Rogan aren't fit to shine the boots of this or any other Vet.
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conchita
Pearl Clutcher
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Jul 1, 2014 11:25:58 GMT
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Post by conchita on Jan 20, 2015 22:34:20 GMT
One last thing and I *might* be done. I obviously disagree with those who are vilifying Chris Kyle. But not because I am some simple minded patriotic hick following along to some militaristic pied piper. And even if I was, that man served his country to the best of his ability. That flawed man put the lives of his battle buddies first on every mission, every tour of duty he served in. His devotion to his fellow veterans didn't end once he was discharged from service. He continued to serve his fellow veterans to the best of his ability. It cost him his life. For those of us who have lost loved ones in the war and later, from PTSD, this man's legacy is about them and his effort to save as many lives as he took in war. I know there are many families who are thankful to him and others like him who ensured our loved ones returned home safely. myshelly, I think your views would benefit from removing the vitriol you have for all of us simple minded fools.
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Post by cadoodlebug on Jan 20, 2015 23:43:59 GMT
Just got back from seeing the movie. Like others, our audience was completely silent as we filed out ~ many with tears streaming down their face. I'm sure many in the audience were vets as it was an older, matinee audience.
I thought it showed Kyle to be an imperfect man doing a job many would never want or be able to do. The fact that he saved countless lives is enough for me to call him a hero.
On another note, I think Michael Moore is an arrogant, unhappy prick. Bu that's just me.
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DEX
Pearl Clutcher
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Aug 9, 2014 23:13:22 GMT
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Post by DEX on Jan 20, 2015 23:45:14 GMT
I saw the movie last weekend. My word for it was intense also. Very intense.
What I came away from the movie with is; Chris Kyle did his best to keep his Marines safe. He was "the legend" because he was so good at protecting them.
I came home and read up on him and learned about allegations of misrepresenting the truth and the lawsuit. What I haven't heard is any marine come forward and say anything bad about him. I think he had his flaws but I can't find fault with his willingness to serve 4 tours in Iraq.
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Deleted
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Jun 2, 2024 5:53:47 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2015 6:28:20 GMT
I think it's very simplistic to see him as any kind of hero. He may have been an asshole, possibly because of the horrors that he went through, but what he did kept his fellow soldiers alive and that makes him a hero. That's it. For you to paint him as some nutbag who enjoyed killing like he was standing outside the grocery store shooting random people for fun is disgusting.
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Post by pretzels on Jan 21, 2015 11:48:50 GMT
I think it's very simplistic to see him as any kind of hero. He may have been an asshole, possibly because of the horrors that he went through, but what he did kept his fellow soldiers alive and that makes him a hero. That's it. For you to paint him as some nutbag who enjoyed killing like he was standing outside the grocery store shooting random people for fun is disgusting. No, according to the book that he wrote, he was pretty much an asshole before he went into the military. I mean, like crazy-level psycho. He had pins in his wrist because of a rodeo injury and one night when he went on a date, one of the pins kept hitting the turn signal and it was agitating him so he broke the pin off at the base of his skin. HE BROKE IT OFF. Yeah, that's a totally rational way to solve that problem.
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ashwyness
Full Member
Posts: 186
Jul 22, 2014 17:33:23 GMT
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Post by ashwyness on Jan 22, 2015 17:20:07 GMT
We are going to go this weekend. I have not read the book. I do recall the 200 mile funeral procession that went past my office window when he was laid to rest here in Austin. Very moving.
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Post by craftsbycarolyn on Jan 22, 2015 18:13:53 GMT
I saw the movie last night...I thought it was very good. I didn't know anything about Chris Kyle beforehand.
I don't know how any soldier could come home from that and be normal again.
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