AnotherPea
Pearl Clutcher
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Jan 4, 2015 1:47:52 GMT
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Post by AnotherPea on Jun 29, 2015 22:01:08 GMT
I think it really depends on how strongly I feel about the subject and how it is phrased during a sermon.
Thankfully I haven't experienced all of the hypocrisy that so many have here. I'm wondering how much was actually experienced and how much was perceived and/or assumed. My former church probably said that they were reaffirming their stance against gay marriage this weekend too. That doesn't make them hypocrites. When things come up in the news they "reaffirm" their stance. They don't focus just on one issue/sin. The message is much more about loving thy neighbor. If abortion was a hot topic nationally, that would be addressed on Sunday too.
What a lot of people fail to understand, including clergy themselves, is that a church is not a collection of perfect people. It is a gathering of sinners that try to grow closer to God so that they sin less. You don't have to be perfect to acknowledge sin in yourself or others. It isn't hypocritical to say "Bob, I cheated on my wife. You need to stop cheating on yours. I know the damage it can cause." It isn't even hypocritical to say "Bob, you're cheating on your wife. I'm cheating on mine. We have to stop doing this because it is going to end up hurting a lot of people."
When we were visiting churches we attended one in particular for several weeks. It was looking like we were going to settle down there. But the last sermon I heard was focused 100% on how evil Mormons are and how they aren't Christians. I couldn't rationalize that with anything. The sermon was harsh, not love thy neighbor at all, and was given more from a personal opinion than Biblical standing. While I'm not follower of Biblical literalism by any means, but I do think that if a pastor is using that as his foundation, he needs to be able to back up all of his sermon with the Bible.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2015 22:03:43 GMT
Skypea - males and females will continue to leave their parents and marry, just as you quoted. Where is the mention of those who were created both male and female, though? Because hermaphrodites have been with us throughout the human existence. Or the other variations of genetic markers like XXY, XXYY, fragile X, etc. Gender is not always black and white and genetic mutations to occur.
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Post by christine58 on Jun 29, 2015 22:09:45 GMT
Well...I am catholic and two people I know that are lesbians and have lived together for over 20 years are also catholic and attend the same church. So no--I'm not going anywhere.
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TXMary
Pearl Clutcher
And so many nights I just dream of the ocean. God, I wish I was sailin' again.
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Post by TXMary on Jun 29, 2015 22:14:46 GMT
I am currently completely disenchanted with 'organized' religion and really don't think I can ever go back to attending church. And it makes me very sad. My relationship with God is fine. I just can't handle many of my fellow Christians.
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Post by Belia on Jun 29, 2015 22:33:07 GMT
No, I would not continue to attend that church.
I was raised Catholic, and my whole life I was told by family members (mainly my mom) that even if you didn't believe in everything the church stood for or preached, you just needed to look the other way and continue to attend no matter what. Imagine my surprise when, as an adult, I was able to find a church community that meshed with my feelings and values pretty much 100%.
Leave and find a religious community that is a better fit.
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Post by disneypal on Jun 29, 2015 22:46:11 GMT
I am sort of struggling with the issue myself.
I have friends that are gay - one is a couple that is married (they had a ceremony in our state, although it wasn't legal and the following year, they were legally married in another state). They are very, very good friends of mine. I have a few other friends that are gay (another couple who plan on marrying now that it is legal) and a couple that are single.
Our denomination changed the by-laws last year, which allows for same-sex marriage ceremonies to be performed in our church. However, they also said, that a pastor will not be forced to perform a marriage and the particular church doesn't have to, if they so decide that. Meaning...same-sex couples can get married in our denomination but depending on the church, may not be allowed to.
Our church has decided not to allow same-sex ceremonies. I love our church, I love our pastor and I have no desire to leave. Part of me agrees with our church's decision but part of me doesn't. I'm so conflicted....part of me feels (biblically) that marriage should be between a man and woman but I also believe that (legally) everyone should have the right to wed (I know I contradict my own self).
My friends are so perfect together and I just love them to bits and I'm happy I was part of their special day...but on the other hand, they were not married in a church. I'm not saying they shouldn't be allowed, I think they should be allowed to marry where they want to but I still understand my church's POV.
I don't want to leave my church over this one issue because I am in agreement with everything else my church believes/follows. It is just a real struggle for me.
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Post by christine58 on Jun 29, 2015 22:48:49 GMT
Many people disneypal are not married in a church....doesn't make them less married
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Post by leftturnonly on Jun 29, 2015 23:10:47 GMT
Skypea - males and females will continue to leave their parents and marry, just as you quoted. Where is the mention of those who were created both male and female, though? Because hermaphrodites have been with us throughout the human existence. Or the other variations of genetic markers like XXY, XXYY, fragile X, etc. Gender is not always black and white and genetic mutations to occur. True. I limited my question to the most obvious example. I do believe in Jesus. I believe the Bible contains the word of God as written by men and that life today isn't typically as black and white as these writings suggest.
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Post by leftturnonly on Jun 29, 2015 23:13:39 GMT
I am sort of struggling with the issue myself.
I have friends that are gay - one is a couple that is married (they had a ceremony in our state, although it wasn't legal and the following year, they were legally married in another state). They are very, very good friends of mine. I have a few other friends that are gay (another couple who plan on marrying now that it is legal) and a couple that are single.
Our denomination changed the by-laws last year, which allows for same-sex marriage ceremonies to be performed in our church. However, they also said, that a pastor will not be forced to perform a marriage and the particular church doesn't have to, if they so decide that. Meaning...same-sex couples can get married in our denomination but depending on the church, may not be allowed to.
Our church has decided not to allow same-sex ceremonies. I love our church, I love our pastor and I have no desire to leave. Part of me agrees with our church's decision but part of me doesn't. I'm so conflicted....part of me feels (biblically) that marriage should be between a man and woman but I also believe that (legally) everyone should have the right to wed (I know I contradict my own self).
My friends are so perfect together and I just love them to bits and I'm happy I was part of their special day...but on the other hand, they were not married in a church. I'm not saying they shouldn't be allowed, I think they should be allowed to marry where they want to but I still understand my church's POV.
I don't want to leave my church over this one issue because I am in agreement with everything else my church believes/follows. It is just a real struggle for me.
Then do not leave. I bet you are not the only one struggling to resolve this conflict.
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Post by fridaycat on Jun 29, 2015 23:22:11 GMT
We left our church of 25 years three years ago for a variety of reasons, this being one of them. Many of the members are my "friends" on Facebook and between this issue and the Confederate flag one, I am reminded why I left that congregation. It really makes me sad because otherwise I love these people. I know I need to unfriend them on Facebook because it only serves to irritate and sadden me to witness their complete unChristian attitudes. We tried a different church but have ultimately given up on it too. I am currently completely disenchanted with 'organized' religion and really don't think I can ever go back to attending church. I think i am on my own journey, several months along, of figuring out how i feel about organized religion as a whole. The. SCOTUS ruling just blew it up in my face. I grew attending church but only 4 years ago, after a 15 year hiatus, did DH and i start attending together here in our new to us small town. At the time our DDs were 3 and 6. Now they are nearly 7 and 10. I am becoming increasingly unsure if I want to continue on with organized religion. But a lot of our friends attend our church, though it's far from being our main social life. I am just really struggling overall where i am supposed to guide our family and even, 'what do i believe'? Ftr, DH couldn't care less if we attend church or not. He has always been skeptical of organized religion but attends for the girls and me. Like someone mentioned above,the scotus ruling has further caused me to question what i may be exposing my kids to even though my intentions are good. My church is definately not preaching hate but the denomination as a whole and the pastor of my church clearly fall onn the side of the 'Bible says homosexuality is a sin.' The pastor quoted billy graham in Sunday's sermon saying that it is the spirits job to convict, God's job to judge and our job to love. But interwoven in the message was that homosexuality is a sin. And if we leave, then what? What does it look like to teach your kids about God and provide them that when you're not particularly religious yourself?
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Post by fridaycat on Jun 29, 2015 23:36:18 GMT
The church is a Christian Alliance church that we basically fell upon due to an invite from friends and, being a small town, many other friends of ours attended the as well. So really we arrived and stayed for social reasons. I was feeling guilty not raising or DDs with religion and the invite presented itself. I grew up in a Brethren church, which, ironically, is ok with gay marriage though way more traditional in its presentation than our current church which is very contemporary.
Thank you so all for sharing your experiences and thoughts with me. I am in the midst of carefully considering them all.
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Post by fridaycat on Jun 29, 2015 23:51:16 GMT
I'm so conflicted....part of me feels (biblically) that marriage should be between a man and woman but I also believe that (legally) everyone should have the right to wed (I know I contradict my own self).
I kind of feel the same way, like, can't everyone win? This very much feeds my people pleasing nature.
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Post by traceys on Jun 30, 2015 0:00:03 GMT
Has reaffirmed they are anti-gay marriage? Would you keep attending that same church? I'm struggling with this issue and Facebook isn't helping. Several church members who I am friends with have been vocal about their dissatisfaction with the ruling and how it goes against the teachings of the Bible. For me it complicates things by now being able to put a name and face on the situation. I can elaborate more but that's the beginning of what I'm feeling. Thanks for any helpful input you can provide me with. For me, equal rights in terms of how the government should operate does not have to line up with what my church teaches. I do believe that marriage is Biblically defined as being between a man and a woman, but I don't think that public institutions like government should define things Biblically because not everyone should be expected to go along with that. So I'm OK with my government differing with my church. I would imagine, just from what I know of our congregation, that there are people whose views range from one end of the spectrum to the other on the issue.
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Post by Charlotte on Jun 30, 2015 0:15:20 GMT
After three days of just utter bullshit from my "Christian" friends and family I had enough. I posted this article, I'm Christian, unless you are gay. I admit it, I did some hand-slapping, but enough is enough. Then Catholic Memes posted something so utterly offensive I said that is it, I am done. DONE. My God is an AWESOME God. The God I believe in is compassionate and kind and loving to His people. The God I believe in would be heartsick over what is being said and His Son would be disappointed at the hatred being spewed in His name. The bullshit spewed over the internet in the last few days has been far from loving and compassionate and kind.
DONE.
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Post by disneypal on Jun 30, 2015 0:29:18 GMT
Many people disneypal are not married in a church....doesn't make them less married I totally agree with you. I never meant to imply anything otherwise - sorry if it was interpreted as such.
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Post by christine58 on Jun 30, 2015 0:35:53 GMT
Many people disneypal are not married in a church....doesn't make them less married I totally agree with you. I never meant to imply anything otherwise - sorry if it was interpreted as such. No worries...
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Post by CarolinaGirl71 on Jun 30, 2015 1:06:12 GMT
Has reaffirmed they are anti-gay marriage? Would you keep attending that same church? I'm struggling with this issue and Facebook isn't helping. Several church members who I am friends with have been vocal about their dissatisfaction with the ruling and how it goes against the teachings of the Bible. For me it complicates things by now being able to put a name and face on the situation. I can elaborate more but that's the beginning of what I'm feeling. Thanks for any helpful input you can provide me with. Is it just some members, or is it the actual policy of the church? You need to be clear on this before making any other decisions.
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kate
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Post by kate on Jun 30, 2015 2:05:51 GMT
That's a hard one. Twice in my life I have walked out of a church, never to return, after a particularly vehement anti-gay sermon. The churches I attend now are all about acceptance. All of those churches are Catholic. Are you talking about changing denominations, or changing within a denomination? I think the former would be difficult for me. It would also be hard if I had deep ties in the community at the church where I was unhappy. Fortunately, the churches I abandoned were "new" to me at the time, not places I considered my parish home. I have never heard an anti-gay sermon. It was a little unclear in your post. Where the churches you left Catholic, or are the churches you are attending now Catholic? Just curious. The churches that I left were Catholic, and the churches that I currently attend are Catholic. I went through a brief period of trying out other kinds of churches, but I came back to stay.
Both sermons were pretty awful - and a long time ago (18 years and 23 years ago). One was in a liberal town in MA, and the other was in SC. In both towns, I simply fled to another Catholic church in the same town. The first one I remember really well - the priest went on and on about "those ho-mo-sexuals flaunting themselves in the streets" - I sat there with my mouth agape. I wanted to run out the door. The other one was when I was a newlywed - it was the first time we attended this church. The priest went all fire-and-brimstone on gays and I don't remember who all else. After mass, he noticed we were new, and said rather sheepishly, "I hope I didn't scare you away today." DH and I just smiled politely, shook hands with him, and skedaddled.
My current places of work and worship are quite liberal. One has an active Gay-Straight Alliance group which hosts both social events and community-service projects. There are openly gay parishioners everywhere; it's no big deal - it's New York City. Honestly, I've attended and worked in many Catholic churches over the years, and I have found liberal parishes with commitments to the environment and to social justice to be more common than scary conservative ones.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2015 2:10:43 GMT
Well...I am catholic and two people I know that are lesbians and have lived together for over 20 years are also catholic and attend the same church. So no--I'm not going anywhere. How does that work? Isn't homosexuality considered a sin in the Catholic church? I'm not familiar with the rituals of receiving sacraments or how mass works. Are they denied certain rights?
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Post by Merge on Jun 30, 2015 2:39:41 GMT
Well...I am catholic and two people I know that are lesbians and have lived together for over 20 years are also catholic and attend the same church. So no--I'm not going anywhere. How does that work? Isn't homosexuality considered a sin in the Catholic church? I'm not familiar with the rituals of receiving sacraments or how mass works. Are they denied certain rights? They'd never be married in the church, and technically they're not considered to be in a "state of grace" to receive communion if they're having sex outside of sacramental marriage, but it would be really uncommon for a priest to withhold the sacrament of communion from anyone who comes forward. It's more of an honor system and has been for decades. I haven't been Catholic for almost ten years but I don't think much has changed since I left the church. Personally I couldn't stomach a lot of the church's official positions on things, but I never saw anyone treated badly on an individual basis.
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Post by Linda on Jun 30, 2015 2:47:48 GMT
As a Catholic, I find myself in a somewhat uncomfortable place...many Catholics and many Catholic priests/bishops/leaders are unhappy with the SCOTUS ruling, and vocally so, (not all however) and I don't think civil marriage of homosexuals is do or die doctrinal issue (some may differ) within the Catholic Faith. On the other hand, because I AM Catholic, I'm not sporting rainbows on FB or dancing in the streets either...
hence that awkward place where I feel neither fish nor fowl because I think that civil marriage falls under 'give unto Caesar' and isn't a religious concern at all and I think that within our secular society, the SCOTUS ruling was correct but as a Catholic, homosexual activities are a sin - as are many other things that are legal within the secular society.
Now I have plenty of sins of my own, so I'm in no place to worry about your sins - and I don't think that homosexual activities are any more or less sinful than other sexual sins...I'm not lining up to condemn those who remarry after divorce or who live together without the benefit of a Sacramental Marriage so why should I condemn those who act upon their same sex attraction? And I don't think same-sex attraction is a sin in and of itself - it just is what it is.
I wouldn't be comfortable with a fire and brimstone homily about evils of the SCOTUS ruling - but I'm not comfortable with fire and brimstone anyway. Would I leave my parish because of it? No, because there isn't another Catholic parish in the area and my Faith is so much more than homilies or the priest or even the congregation...it's about God and Jesus and the Sacrament of the Eucharist and I wouldn't abandon that.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2015 15:30:33 GMT
How does that work? Isn't homosexuality considered a sin in the Catholic church? I'm not familiar with the rituals of receiving sacraments or how mass works. Are they denied certain rights? They'd never be married in the church, and technically they're not considered to be in a "state of grace" to receive communion if they're having sex outside of sacramental marriage, but it would be really uncommon for a priest to withhold the sacrament of communion from anyone who comes forward. It's more of an honor system and has been for decades. I haven't been Catholic for almost ten years but I don't think much has changed since I left the church. Personally I couldn't stomach a lot of the church's official positions on things, but I never saw anyone treated badly on an individual basis. I have mixed feelings about this. I grew up in a church where if you were gay and living with someone else you would be excommunicated. If you had sex before marriage or had an affair you were excommunicated or disfellowshipped (sp?) Of course this was based on an honor system as well. When an openly lesbian couple is receiving communion, I don't understand why the Catholic church even has these policies in place if there's no enforcement when the "sin" is evident? Why is it so lax? Years ago my cousin was living with her then fiance and was going to convert to the Catholic church and get married in the church as well. As long as they lived in separate areas of the house, then that was okay. I guess with any religion, it depends on the bishop/pastor/priest of the congregation and not necessarily the doctrine.
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Post by giatocj on Jun 30, 2015 15:38:57 GMT
I would definitely be finding another church.
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Post by Merge on Jun 30, 2015 15:52:28 GMT
They'd never be married in the church, and technically they're not considered to be in a "state of grace" to receive communion if they're having sex outside of sacramental marriage, but it would be really uncommon for a priest to withhold the sacrament of communion from anyone who comes forward. It's more of an honor system and has been for decades. I haven't been Catholic for almost ten years but I don't think much has changed since I left the church. Personally I couldn't stomach a lot of the church's official positions on things, but I never saw anyone treated badly on an individual basis. I have mixed feelings about this. I grew up in a church where if you were gay and living with someone else you would be excommunicated. If you had sex before marriage or had an affair you were excommunicated or disfellowshipped (sp?) Of course this was based on an honor system as well. When an openly lesbian couple is receiving communion, I don't understand why the Catholic church even has these policies in place if there's no enforcement when the "sin" is evident? Why is it so lax? Years ago my cousin was living with her then fiance and was going to convert to the Catholic church and get married in the church as well. As long as they lived in separate areas of the house, then that was okay. I guess with any religion, it depends on the bishop/pastor/priest of the congregation and not necessarily the doctrine. Hmmm. Well, excommunication is pretty rare and generally reserved for people whose sin is a matter of public display. Clergy members who are promoting ideas against doctrine seem to be the most common to be excommunicated. It seems like the church's general attitude is to give people the benefit of the doubt until there is no doubt, which is what a public display would create. I remember a brouhaha several years ago when some Catholic clergy announced they would withhold communion from certain pro-choice politicians. Again, public declarations - not private members holding a personal conviction antithetical to what the church teaches. To my knowledge, the church does not consider itself a legal entity to "enforce" people's compliance. There is no Catholic membership card. Parishes are often large and open to anyone, and you or I or anyone at all could walk into Mass this Sunday and receive communion. When I was in the process of leaving religion behind, I spoke with a priest who said to me that the church doesn't excommunicate people, people excommunicate themselves with their choices, and the church just acknowledges the fact when circumstances force them to do so. And it's also worth pointing out that even those excommunicated are still considered Catholic - they just aren't eligible to receive sacraments or participate in the leadership of the church - and are only a confession and repentance away from being returned to full communion (as my aunts like to remind me periodically).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2015 16:04:40 GMT
I have mixed feelings about this. I grew up in a church where if you were gay and living with someone else you would be excommunicated. If you had sex before marriage or had an affair you were excommunicated or disfellowshipped (sp?) Of course this was based on an honor system as well. When an openly lesbian couple is receiving communion, I don't understand why the Catholic church even has these policies in place if there's no enforcement when the "sin" is evident? Why is it so lax? Years ago my cousin was living with her then fiance and was going to convert to the Catholic church and get married in the church as well. As long as they lived in separate areas of the house, then that was okay. I guess with any religion, it depends on the bishop/pastor/priest of the congregation and not necessarily the doctrine. Hmmm. Well, excommunication is pretty rare and generally reserved for people whose sin is a matter of public display. Clergy members who are promoting ideas against doctrine seem to be the most common to be excommunicated. It seems like the church's general attitude is to give people the benefit of the doubt until there is no doubt, which is what a public display would create. I remember a brouhaha several years ago when some Catholic clergy announced they would withhold communion from certain pro-choice politicians. Again, public declarations - not private members holding a personal conviction antithetical to what the church teaches. To my knowledge, the church does not consider itself a legal entity to "enforce" people's compliance. There is no Catholic membership card. Parishes are often large and open to anyone, and you or I or anyone at all could walk into Mass this Sunday and receive communion. When I was in the process of leaving religion behind, I spoke with a priest who said to me that the church doesn't excommunicate people, people excommunicate themselves with their choices, and the church just acknowledges the fact when circumstances force them to do so. And it's also worth pointing out that even those excommunicated are still considered Catholic - they just aren't eligible to receive sacraments or participate in the leadership of the church - and are only a confession and repentance away from being returned to full communion (as my aunts like to remind me periodically). It seems like that would fit the definition of an openly gay couple. There's a "court of love" that a person has to go through in the LDS church. When a person is ex'd or disfellowshipped it's at least a year before they can receive the sacrament. My husband went to one because he had sex before marriage and they wanted me to attend the meeting. I refused because I had no desire to hear about his previous experiences. They sometimes will ask detailed questions. When it was over, and I came in the end of the meeting they said they hoped I would forgive him. I told them I didn't need to forgive him for something that had nothing to do with me. It was a year before he could receive the sacrament and was allowed to marry in an LDS temple. Forgot to add, if you are ex'd you have to be baptized again.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2015 16:17:26 GMT
Or the other variations of genetic markers like XXY, XXYY, fragile X, etc. Gender is not always black and white and genetic mutations to occur. True. I limited my question to the most obvious example. I do believe in Jesus. I believe the Bible contains the word of God as written by men and that life today isn't typically as black and white as these writings suggest. I understand. Although no one ever responds to this. They ignore intersex and other issues. Makes me sad. It's a true issue. And like it or not genetic issues happen.
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Post by compwalla on Jun 30, 2015 16:28:10 GMT
Skypea - males and females will continue to leave their parents and marry, just as you quoted. Where is the mention of those who were created both male and female, though? Because hermaphrodites have been with us throughout the human existence. FTFY : "people who are intersex" outdated terminology
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2015 16:39:06 GMT
Skypea - males and females will continue to leave their parents and marry, just as you quoted. Where is the mention of those who were created both male and female, though? Because hermaphrodites have been with us throughout the human existence. FTFY : "people who are intersex" outdated terminology I apologize for using an outdated term as well. I have a friend who was born intersex and refers to himself as a hermaphrodite. Sorry.
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Post by scrapqueen01 on Jun 30, 2015 17:00:33 GMT
Is it something that is so rare that churches have not had to address? I have never heard of this issue in my church nor have I even thought to ask my pastor about it.
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Post by compwalla on Jun 30, 2015 17:17:55 GMT
I apologize for using an outdated term as well. I have a friend who was born intersex and refers to himself as a hermaphrodite. Sorry. The advocacy website does say some people who are intersex are taking the term back, so to speak. It is hard to keep up with the terminology sometimes. I work closely with LGBTQ members of our state party and they are good at schooling me when there is something I'm not sure of. The transgender and intersex communities overlap a bit and that's where I learned intersex is usually the preferred term.
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