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Post by katieanna on Jul 3, 2015 15:14:01 GMT
I never said that homosexuality was abnormal. I said that people born with both sexes was abnormal. Around and around you go, never answering the question. Abnormal to us is not abnormal to God. Abnormalities due to genetic mutations occur in a predictable fashion in accordance with God's natural laws. Among those mutations are those that define the sex of an individual. Some people are born with both sexes. They are not clearly male or female. Where are they addressed in the Bible? If you think that I'm going "around and around" then we're mis-communicating somewhere because I could say the same about you. Clearly, we see things differently. God did not intend for people to be born with abnormalities. That is a direct result of living in a fallen world. If you do not see it in that context, then further discussion is useless. It's like an ant trying to describe a forest of grass to a bird who views the grass from the sky.
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grammanisi
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,740
Jun 26, 2014 1:37:37 GMT
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Post by grammanisi on Jul 3, 2015 15:20:48 GMT
My daughter, grandkids and I all attended the same church. They were so homophobic, racist and bigoted that we just could not continue going there. My daughter and I were very angry by the time we left.
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Post by winonalakeliving on Jul 3, 2015 16:12:41 GMT
If you attend a church based on the Bible the it will not support gay marriages.
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 3, 2015 18:36:44 GMT
Around and around you go, never answering the question. Abnormal to us is not abnormal to God. Abnormalities due to genetic mutations occur in a predictable fashion in accordance with God's natural laws. Among those mutations are those that define the sex of an individual. Some people are born with both sexes. They are not clearly male or female. Where are they addressed in the Bible? If you think that I'm going "around and around" then we're mis-communicating somewhere because I could say the same about you. Clearly, we see things differently. God did not intend for people to be born with abnormalities. That is a direct result of living in a fallen world. If you do not see it in that context, then further discussion is useless. It's like an ant trying to describe a forest of grass to a bird who views the grass from the sky. So I'm an ant and you're a bird. And you aren't condescending. Dismissing the fact that some people are born neither totally male nor female is fine because they are the exception, not the rule and you feel that you can do this because Satan tempted Eve in the garden with an apple from the forbidden tree. All well and good unless you happen to be a real live "exception" who is looking to the passage in the Bible that says God created males and females and wondering where you fit in. God help those individuals and any others who are seeking God if they come to you, because they won't find it with you.
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Post by sunraynnc on Jul 3, 2015 20:32:24 GMT
The Episcopal Church Welcomes You! (and everyone!)
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Post by katieanna on Jul 4, 2015 1:19:54 GMT
If you think that I'm going "around and around" then we're mis-communicating somewhere because I could say the same about you. Clearly, we see things differently. God did not intend for people to be born with abnormalities. That is a direct result of living in a fallen world. If you do not see it in that context, then further discussion is useless. It's like an ant trying to describe a forest of grass to a bird who views the grass from the sky. So I'm an ant and you're a bird. And you aren't condescending. Dismissing the fact that some people are born neither totally male nor female is fine because they are the exception, not the rule and you feel that you can do this because Satan tempted Eve in the garden with an apple from the forbidden tree. All well and good unless you happen to be a real live "exception" who is looking to the passage in the Bible that says God created males and females and wondering where you fit in. God help those individuals and any others who are seeking God if they come to you, because they won't find it with you. You're sure about that are you? You know me so well that you can make such a judgment? We ALL suffer in one way or another living in a fallen world. That certainly doesn't make me any different or any better than the next person. Your seemingly visceral reaction to my beliefs is incomprehensible to me. The bible makes it quite clear that by one man's sin, sin is assimilated to all; but by one Man's sacrifice, all have been justified through Him. This includes those who are born with both sexes. To me, that is what it's all about; salvation through Christ is for "whosoever will." And you call that "condescending?"
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Post by Skypea on Jul 4, 2015 2:00:30 GMT
I'm so conflicted....part of me feels (biblically) that marriage should be between a man and woman but I also believe that (legally) everyone should have the right to wed (I know I contradict my own self). I kind of feel the same way, like, can't everyone win? This very much feeds my people pleasing nature. I am not conflicted, but I understand what you are saying.
In my opinion, this is a civil rights issue. Everyone should be entitled to the same legal rights provided by marriage, straight or gay.
I firmly believe you are born heterosexual or homosexual. It's not a choice or a lifestyle.
I also believe in freedom of religion. So, everyone should be free to marry whom they choose, but no particular church should be forced to marry same sex couples.
I left my previous church because I don't believe hatred should be preached in church. I belong to a Lutheran church with a large sign "All are welcome".
I've never been in a church where hatred was preached. I've been in a number of them that didn't preach much of God's word tho. And a few that lied about it...
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Post by Skypea on Jul 4, 2015 2:39:15 GMT
4 And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”
Skypea - Maybe if I quote and link your name enough you will actually pay attention to my sincere question and come back here with a real answer. God made MOST of us male or female. He made some of us male AND female together in one body. What is God's plan for them? Where are they addressed in the Bible? Where does it say that it is against God's plan for these individuals to marry? do you know who Nick is? Nick without arms or legs? look him up...
how do you know He made them that way? There are a lot of things in the world that can cause deformities. chemicals in our water and food, in the air, hormones injected into animals we eat. Many things that can cause damage to our bodies - and those of our babies.
Everyone needs to seek God's plan for them individually by going straight to Him.
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Post by Skypea on Jul 4, 2015 2:40:48 GMT
So I'm an ant and you're a bird. And you aren't condescending. Dismissing the fact that some people are born neither totally male nor female is fine because they are the exception, not the rule and you feel that you can do this because Satan tempted Eve in the garden with an apple from the forbidden tree. All well and good unless you happen to be a real live "exception" who is looking to the passage in the Bible that says God created males and females and wondering where you fit in. God help those individuals and any others who are seeking God if they come to you, because they won't find it with you. You're sure about that are you? You know me so well that you can make such a judgment? We ALL suffer in one way or another living in a fallen world. That certainly doesn't make me any different or any better than the next person. Your seemingly visceral reaction to my beliefs is incomprehensible to me. The bible makes it quite clear that by one man's sin, sin is assimilated to all; but by one Man's sacrifice, all have been justified through Him. This includes those who are born with both sexes. To me, that is what it's all about; salvation through Christ is for "whosoever will." And you call that "condescending?" katieanna - good posts (2)
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 4, 2015 5:42:50 GMT
So I'm an ant and you're a bird. And you aren't condescending. Dismissing the fact that some people are born neither totally male nor female is fine because they are the exception, not the rule and you feel that you can do this because Satan tempted Eve in the garden with an apple from the forbidden tree. All well and good unless you happen to be a real live "exception" who is looking to the passage in the Bible that says God created males and females and wondering where you fit in. God help those individuals and any others who are seeking God if they come to you, because they won't find it with you. You're sure about that are you? You know me so well that you can make such a judgment? We ALL suffer in one way or another living in a fallen world. That certainly doesn't make me any different or any better than the next person. Your seemingly visceral reaction to my beliefs is incomprehensible to me. The bible makes it quite clear that by one man's sin, sin is assimilated to all; but by one Man's sacrifice, all have been justified through Him. This includes those who are born with both sexes. To me, that is what it's all about; salvation through Christ is for "whosoever will." And you call that "condescending?" No, your calling me an ant was condescending. But, you know that. You are way too defensive here. It is completely uncalled for. Imagine for 5 seconds that your child comes to you after attending a wedding where the passage in question is read, as it was at my church wedding, and your child asks you where his friend George fits in. George doesn't look like the other boys, but he sure is a nice kid that people like. Are you going to tell your child that George is a mistake? That his body is a mistake? That his body is a little unusual, but completely built by God to God's plan for George? What will you tell your son when George develops breasts in a few years and chooses to be called Alisha? Is Alisha a mistake? Is it a mistake for Alisha to want to live as a woman, or should George go through radical surgeries and/or begin taking strong hormones to remain George because his parents want that? Is George/Alisha allowed to marry? What if George, now called Alisha, wants to marry Margareta? This is what I am asking you, and you are going on about me saying *your* religion is condescending... as if there is not the slightest chance that I am a Christian.
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anniebygaslight
Drama Llama
I'd love a cup of tea. #1966
Posts: 7,394
Location: Third Rock from the sun.
Jun 28, 2014 14:08:19 GMT
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Post by anniebygaslight on Jul 4, 2015 7:05:11 GMT
Around and around you go, never answering the question. Abnormal to us is not abnormal to God. Abnormalities due to genetic mutations occur in a predictable fashion in accordance with God's natural laws. Among those mutations are those that define the sex of an individual. Some people are born with both sexes. They are not clearly male or female. Where are they addressed in the Bible? If you think that I'm going "around and around" then we're mis-communicating somewhere because I could say the same about you. Clearly, we see things differently. God did not intend for people to be born with abnormalities. That is a direct result of living in a fallen world. If you do not see it in that context, then further discussion is useless. It's like an ant trying to describe a forest of grass to a bird who views the grass from the sky.Wow. There is no room for seeing the other person's point of view in your world is there? Posts like yours ours make my hair stand on end, and make me an even more devout atheist. Sooo, chromosomal abnormalities, such as Down's syndrome, are the result of sin are they? I am assuming that is what you mean by a fallen world. Correct me if I am wrong. And I am sure you will not hesitate to. What happened to this mallarky of each of us being made in his own image and likeness in your argument?
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Post by Skypea on Jul 4, 2015 18:05:46 GMT
If you think that I'm going "around and around" then we're mis-communicating somewhere because I could say the same about you. Clearly, we see things differently. God did not intend for people to be born with abnormalities. That is a direct result of living in a fallen world. If you do not see it in that context, then further discussion is useless. It's like an ant trying to describe a forest of grass to a bird who views the grass from the sky.Wow. There is no room for seeing the other person's point of view in your world is there? Posts like yours ours make my hair stand on end, and make me an even more devout atheist. not if to you 'seeing' means believing... posts like yours make my heart ache... and cause me to once again thank God for the day He touched my heart and adopted me into His family. yes, prior to sin everything was perfect, just as God made it. 'the wages of sin is death'. 'His own image'. God is a spirit. He doesn't have a body of flesh, 2 arms, 2 legs, brown eyes and blonde hair etc.
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anniebygaslight
Drama Llama
I'd love a cup of tea. #1966
Posts: 7,394
Location: Third Rock from the sun.
Jun 28, 2014 14:08:19 GMT
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Post by anniebygaslight on Jul 4, 2015 18:33:03 GMT
Wow. There is no room for seeing the other person's point of view in your world is there? Posts like yours ours make my hair stand on end, and make me an even more devout atheist. not if to you 'seeing' means believing... posts like yours make my heart ache... and cause me to once again thank God for the day He touched my heart and adopted me into His family. yes, prior to sin everything was perfect, just as God made it. 'the wages of sin is death'. 'His own image'. God is a spirit. He doesn't have a body of flesh, 2 arms, 2 legs, brown eyes and blonde hair etc. I can't buy into any of that. I nearly said sorry, but that would not be true. However, I'm happy for you that your beliefs give you strength and comfort.
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Post by Skypea on Jul 4, 2015 18:43:39 GMT
I never said that homosexuality was abnormal. I said that people born with both sexes was abnormal. Around and around you go, never answering the question. Abnormal to us is not abnormal to God. Abnormalities due to genetic mutations occur in a predictable fashion in accordance with God's natural laws. Among those mutations are those that define the sex of an individual. Some people are born with both sexes. They are not clearly male or female. Where are they addressed in the Bible? you should search that out. Use the topical Bible on biblegatewaydotcom.
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Post by moveablefeast on Jul 4, 2015 19:16:08 GMT
Wow. There is no room for seeing the other person's point of view in your world is there? Posts like yours ours make my hair stand on end, and make me an even more devout atheist. not if to you 'seeing' means believing... posts like yours make my heart ache... and cause me to once again thank God for the day He touched my heart and adopted me into His family. yes, prior to sin everything was perfect, just as God made it. 'the wages of sin is death'. 'His own image'. God is a spirit. He doesn't have a body of flesh, 2 arms, 2 legs, brown eyes and blonde hair etc. And yet it's right there in Genesis 1, "Let us make man in our own image, after our likeness". The word "make" is used to signify creating something out of nothing and emphasizes the physical nature of the man. It is absolutely referring to the physical creation of man... meaning that we in our physical bodies bear the stamp of our Creator. No, it doesn't mean that God has brown eyes and blonde hair, but that there is something both material and crucial about the Creator that is reflected in the physical nature of the created. And yet our bodies are different and are sometimes not perfect and sometimes don't work the way they ought. But the stamp of God is still on our physical bodies. That means that our bodies' imperfections and abnormalities and problems and flaws and malfunctions do not change that thing that is materially and inherently God-imaged in our physical selves. Christ's glorified body is the first glimpse of our future, glorified bodies. The ones that will be made perfect in due time. I don't know why babies are born with Down syndrome or no brain or missing a limb or with ambiguous genitalia or whatever else. It's not a mystery to Him though. What good news that He knows and loves us all and we each are beautiful and beloved children of God! Our bodies are GOOD. My concern about the "fallen world" concept in its more reductive use is that it puts people whose bodies exhibit abnormalities of many kinds in this whole different category of person, as if they somehow even less reflect the image and intent of God in their bodies and are more in need of redemption than the rest of us. I don't think that's true. I don't think God intended babies to be born with anencephaly, but I think we do live in a world where these things occur - and God's love is so big that it is no challenge to Him to love them just the way He loves the rest of us. This is such good news to any of us - I have found as I have studied it that it often comes as especially good news to those of us who have ever felt like our bodies weren't really "right" for one reason or another, because it does away with that "spirit good, body bad" thinking that divides us into two competing parts. But we are whole people (not divided), created and redeemed by the God who knows us in the entirety of our being. Beautiful and beloved!
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Post by gramasue on Jul 4, 2015 21:57:42 GMT
Because of this issue and because she was in support of it, the judgmental, narrow-minded, pompous "elders" of our church forced out one of the most dedicated, inspiring, compassionate, involved and lovely women ministers I have ever known. The kids all just loved her. They were devastated when she left. Her sermons were amazing. She was the best speaker I have ever heard.
That was a year and a half ago, and they still have not found another minister. She, on the other hand, went to serve in a larger church in a bigger town and I'm sure is engaging and inspiring each and every person in her new congregation.
We left the church.
Oh, and for the record, I may not go to God's house every Sunday but He comes to mine every day.
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Post by katieanna on Jul 7, 2015 15:11:21 GMT
Apologies for being so late to the game here. I had access to the board over the long weekend only through my Kindle. I don't know what it's like for everyone else, but my Kindle wasn't made for posting on message boards, it seems. No, your calling me an ant was condescending. But, you know that. You are way too defensive here. It is completely uncalled for. Excuse me, but I never called you an ant. ANALOGY noun əˈnæl·ə·dʒi/ a comparison of the features or qualities of two different things to show their similarities: EXAMPLE: He was explaining that the mind has no form and is invisible, and that a useful analogy is of the mind being like the sky..So in the above analogy: Would you say that our minds are the sky? Of course, you wouldn’t because you know that they are two different things. They are simply being used to explain a comparable feature between the two that is similar and so it was with my analogy. My analogy had to do with two totally different world views. The point being that we will not see eye-to-eye on spiritual issues because we view them from two totally different perspectives. How I viewed the world, my goals in life, etc., before my salvation are totally different than how I view those things now. The fact that you would take an analogy so literally is what amazes me. (Well, maybe not. It’s 2Peas/RefuPeas and the peas seem to have a habit of taking analogies of people they don’t agree with, literally). Do you take God’s Word as literally as you’ve taken the ant/bird analogy? If my posts have come across as too defensive, I apologize. But have you considered the tone of your own posts? I’ve been on TwoPeas (this board and the old board) for a long time and I’ve witnessed time and time again the direction that these sorts of threads generally go; this one’s no different. I would explain to my child that George was born differently like some children who are born with other physical defects. It happens. It’s a fact of life but that does not make that child any less of a person than the child who is born without physical defects. I do NOT consider any sort of physical defect in a baby a mistake because, as I said earlier, God does not make mistakes. In this world, people get hurt, people die, people suffer loss, sickness, grief, etc., and some babies are born with holes in their hearts or some other genetic defect. And, yes, I think all those issues happen because of the world in which we live. In fact, I’m quoting part of moveable’s response on this subject because I agree with it and she explained it beautifully: “I don't think God intended babies to be born with anencephaly, but I think we do live in a world where these things occur - and God's love is so big that it is no challenge to Him to love them just the way He loves the rest of us. This is such good news to any of us - I have found as I have studied it that it often comes as especially good news to those of us who have ever felt like our bodies weren't really "right" for one reason or another, because it does away with that "spirit good, body bad" thinking that divides us into two competing parts. But we are whole people (not divided), created and redeemed by the God who knows us in the entirety of our being. Beautiful and beloved!” I am not familiar with the hermaphrodite condition other than the person affected receives hormones to exhibit traits of one sex or the other. If that person receives male hormones and later begins to grow breasts, I would say that further treatments and/or decisions should be decided amongst the patient, his parents (if applicable) and his doctor(s), and this is what I would explain to my child. First off, you said this: God help those individuals and any others who are seeking God if they come to you, because they won't find it with you.” You stated that because (and this is my assumption) in your eyes, I dismiss people or don’t care about people who are born with physical defects. I then explained that physical abnormalities occur because we live in a fallen world. But whether it is physical defects, illness, accidents, etc., etc., at some point in this life, we all will suffer because that is the condition of the world in which we live. I also further explained that while sin was imputed on ALL mankind, God therefore bestowed on mankind the redeeming Gift of His Son, Jesus Christ, that through Him we can be made whole. Through one man the world was condemned; yet through another Man, the world has been redeemed. And I assumed that due to the “fallen world” explanation, you then accused me of being “condescending.” I do not know if you are a Christian. If you claim to be then I accept the fact that you are. But just remember, anyone can all themselves a Christian. However, it was Jesus Who told Nicodemus that “ye must be born again.” Nicodemus didn’t understand because he thought that Jesus was referring to a physical rebirth, but He wasn’t. Jesus was referring to a spiritual rebirth. And it’s that spiritual rebirth that makes us a true Christian. I can guarantee you this: If you receive that spiritual rebirth, you DO become a “new creature” as the Bible attests. You will change and you will (or should) grow and you will become more like Him as you grow in fellowship with Jesus Christ. I personally do not know whether you’ve been “born again.” Only you and the Lord know that. If you think that I'm going "around and around" then we're mis-communicating somewhere because I could say the same about you. Clearly, we see things differently. God did not intend for people to be born with abnormalities. That is a direct result of living in a fallen world. If you do not see it in that context, then further discussion is useless. It's like an ant trying to describe a forest of grass to a bird who views the grass from the sky.Wow. There is no room for seeing the other person's point of view in your world is there? Posts like yours ours make my hair stand on end, and make me an even more devout atheist. Sooo, chromosomal abnormalities, such as Down's syndrome, are the result of sin are they? I am assuming that is what you mean by a fallen world. Correct me if I am wrong. And I am sure you will not hesitate to. What happened to this mallarky of each of us being made in his own image and likeness in your argument? Wow seriously, annieb, “there is no room for me seeing other people’s point of view?” It’s very difficult to talk about a situation when those discussing it view it from two totally different perspectives. That was my point. I’m sorry if it was unclear. Yes, we live in a fallen world and because we do, bad things happen – to everyone, sooner or later. This was explained further in this and other posts. “Being made in His own image and likeness” - Some say it’s physical, some say it’s spiritual – I think it’s a combination of various attributes. As God is 3 persons yet is one God, so is man made of three parts, but is one in all – body, soul and spirit. We can think; we can reason; we can design and we can create… In that respect, God’s image is “stamped” on each of us. Since God is all powerful, all knowing and His mind is beyond our understanding, I’m sure that there is much more to it than that. And I look forward to the day when we shall “see Him as He is.”
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 7, 2015 19:14:43 GMT
not if to you 'seeing' means believing... posts like yours make my heart ache... and cause me to once again thank God for the day He touched my heart and adopted me into His family. yes, prior to sin everything was perfect, just as God made it. 'the wages of sin is death'. 'His own image'. God is a spirit. He doesn't have a body of flesh, 2 arms, 2 legs, brown eyes and blonde hair etc. And yet it's right there in Genesis 1, "Let us make man in our own image, after our likeness". The word "make" is used to signify creating something out of nothing and emphasizes the physical nature of the man. It is absolutely referring to the physical creation of man... meaning that we in our physical bodies bear the stamp of our Creator. No, it doesn't mean that God has brown eyes and blonde hair, but that there is something both material and crucial about the Creator that is reflected in the physical nature of the created. And yet our bodies are different and are sometimes not perfect and sometimes don't work the way they ought. But the stamp of God is still on our physical bodies. That means that our bodies' imperfections and abnormalities and problems and flaws and malfunctions do not change that thing that is materially and inherently God-imaged in our physical selves. Christ's glorified body is the first glimpse of our future, glorified bodies. The ones that will be made perfect in due time. I don't know why babies are born with Down syndrome or no brain or missing a limb or with ambiguous genitalia or whatever else. It's not a mystery to Him though. What good news that He knows and loves us all and we each are beautiful and beloved children of God! Our bodies are GOOD. My concern about the "fallen world" concept in its more reductive use is that it puts people whose bodies exhibit abnormalities of many kinds in this whole different category of person, as if they somehow even less reflect the image and intent of God in their bodies and are more in need of redemption than the rest of us. I don't think that's true. I don't think God intended babies to be born with anencephaly, but I think we do live in a world where these things occur - and God's love is so big that it is no challenge to Him to love them just the way He loves the rest of us. This is such good news to any of us - I have found as I have studied it that it often comes as especially good news to those of us who have ever felt like our bodies weren't really "right" for one reason or another, because it does away with that "spirit good, body bad" thinking that divides us into two competing parts. But we are whole people (not divided), created and redeemed by the God who knows us in the entirety of our being. Beautiful and beloved! God Bless You, Moveablefeast. Bless you abundantly throughout your life. Skypea - Moveablefeast speaks to people as if they are people worthy of respectful conversations. You speak at people with long-suffering disdain underlining everything you write. It is impossible to have meaningful discussions with you because you absolutely refuse to consider 99% of the people here worthy of the effort. Whenever you are asked a challenging question, you redirect the person elsewhere as if this was a school and you were the teacher.
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 7, 2015 19:44:42 GMT
katieanna - Let's start over here. I doubt we'd be at odds in person and it is a waste to be at odds here. You came on this thread assuming that you and I have different perspectives. I think you're more wrong than right about that, but it is immaterial to the questions I've been asking you. There are real people living today who are not defined in the passage that states that God made us male and female. This is the passage Skypea used in her defense of traditional marriage. That is a hole in the argument that you and Skypea are intent to overlook by diverting the question to the origin of sin in our world. And here I am, trying to get either or both of you to focus on this exception, this hole in the defense, and tell me where these people fit in to your understanding. Should they be allowed to marry? If so, who decides which sex is acceptable for them to marry? If you can't answer this, then how can these verses be used to justify the traditional idea of marriage for everyone and not just for the majority?
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Post by mikklynn on Jul 7, 2015 22:58:21 GMT
Skypea - We left a Lutheran church where the pastor preached that AIDS was created by God to punish homosexuals. Anyone else who got it was an innocent victim. That is hatred, in my opinion. The same man preached the ills of society were due to mothers working outside the home.
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Post by katieanna on Jul 10, 2015 3:00:35 GMT
katieanna - Let's start over here. I doubt we'd be at odds in person and it is a waste to be at odds here. You came on this thread assuming that you and I have different perspectives. I think you're more wrong than right about that, but it is immaterial to the questions I've been asking you. There are real people living today who are not defined in the passage that states that God made us male and female. This is the passage Skypea used in her defense of traditional marriage. That is a hole in the argument that you and Skypea are intent to overlook by diverting the question to the origin of sin in our world. And here I am, trying to get either or both of you to focus on this exception, this hole in the defense, and tell me where these people fit in to your understanding. Should they be allowed to marry? If so, who decides which sex is acceptable for them to marry? If you can't answer this, then how can these verses be used to justify the traditional idea of marriage for everyone and not just for the majority? If you don't accept the explanation that deformities/abnormalities exist because of the condition of the world in which we live, then I honestly don't know how else to explain it. That explanation is in no way a "diversion" - it is the answer to your question from my perspective as a born again believer. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." The bible tells us that after each day of creation, including the day in which He made Adam and Eve (male and female), God said "It was good." When God initially created the world, it was perfect. He designed it in such a way that everything worked perfectly within His will. And it would have continued to do so had He either not given man a free will or if man had never chosen to sin. When Adam sinned, it did not change God's design for how things are to work perfectly together; but it did change the dynamics. I still say that because of the fallen condition of the world, our bodies and our minds are not perfect. We were initially designed to exist with God forever in our original bodies ...that was God's perfect plan for us. But that changed when sin entered the world. Our bodies are now mortal which means that they will die and return to dust. (But our souls will live forever and for those who know Him as Lord and Savior, that is a blessing beyond comprehension. It is also for "whosoever will." No one need be left out.) The condition of people who are born with both sexes falls under the "fallen world" category, just as every heartache, disease, accident, etc. fall under that category. These things are the result of living in a sin-cursed world. I know that the term "sin-cursed" is total anathema to most peas. But if you believe in an Almighty Creator Who has given us His Word as a guidebook for our lives, then that's how you would view the woes in life. That doesn't mean that we dismiss the suffering that is rampant in the world today because we know that God has not abandoned us. We've been blessed today with an abundance of knowledge and scientific and medical wisdom. People who are born with physical needs have the chance to be cured, or if not cured, to live a better quality of life than they would have had without those achievements. While it is not always 100% for every single person, there is still hope where there had been none before. Which brings me to your particular question: I don't know if I can answer your question to your satisfaction because I know very little about it. But I'll assume that the capability exists to successfully treat people with that condition so that they can live their life as either a man or a woman. From what I understand of God's nature through His Word, I can not imagine Him finding fault in that person's decision to medically become a particular sex and then for that person to marry.
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 10, 2015 4:37:09 GMT
katieanna - Let's start over here. I doubt we'd be at odds in person and it is a waste to be at odds here. You came on this thread assuming that you and I have different perspectives. I think you're more wrong than right about that, but it is immaterial to the questions I've been asking you. There are real people living today who are not defined in the passage that states that God made us male and female. This is the passage Skypea used in her defense of traditional marriage. That is a hole in the argument that you and Skypea are intent to overlook by diverting the question to the origin of sin in our world. And here I am, trying to get either or both of you to focus on this exception, this hole in the defense, and tell me where these people fit in to your understanding. Should they be allowed to marry? If so, who decides which sex is acceptable for them to marry? If you can't answer this, then how can these verses be used to justify the traditional idea of marriage for everyone and not just for the majority? If you don't accept the explanation that deformities/abnormalities exist because of the condition of the world in which we live, then I honestly don't know how else to explain it. That explanation is in no way a "diversion" - it is the answer to your question from my perspective as a born again believer. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." The bible tells us that after each day of creation, including the day in which He made Adam and Eve (male and female), God said "It was good." When God initially created the world, it was perfect. He designed it in such a way that everything worked perfectly within His will. And it would have continued to do so had He either not given man a free will or if man had never chosen to sin. When Adam sinned, it did not change God's design for how things are to work perfectly together; but it did change the dynamics. I still say that because of the fallen condition of the world, our bodies and our minds are not perfect. We were initially designed to exist with God forever in our original bodies ...that was God's perfect plan for us. But that changed when sin entered the world. Our bodies are now mortal which means that they will die and return to dust. (But our souls will live forever and for those who know Him as Lord and Savior, that is a blessing beyond comprehension. It is also for "whosoever will." No one need be left out.) The condition of people who are born with both sexes falls under the "fallen world" category, just as every heartache, disease, accident, etc. fall under that category. These things are the result of living in a sin-cursed world. I know that the term "sin-cursed" is total anathema to most peas. But if you believe in an Almighty Creator Who has given us His Word as a guidebook for our lives, then that's how you would view the woes in life. That doesn't mean that we dismiss the suffering that is rampant in the world today because we know that God has not abandoned us. We've been blessed today with an abundance of knowledge and scientific and medical wisdom. People who are born with physical needs have the chance to be cured, or if not cured, to live a better quality of life than they would have had without those achievements. While it is not always 100% for every single person, there is still hope where there had been none before. Which brings me to your particular question: I don't know if I can answer your question to your satisfaction because I know very little about it. But I'll assume that the capability exists to successfully treat people with that condition so that they can live their life as either a man or a woman. From what I understand of God's nature through His Word, I can not imagine Him finding fault in that person's decision to medically become a particular sex and then for that person to marry. See, I knew we could do this. We have been focused on different things. You've been addressing why our bodies aren't perfect, and I've been addressing living a normal life with an unusual body. No, surgeries have been very disappointing and have left people sterile, confused and depressed. A newer approach is to leave young children intact. www.isna.org/node/138 So you see, that beautiful passage does not include everyone and because it doesn't, it is not a sound argument against same-sex marriages. Couples who are same-sex have every reason to argue that this passage does not include them, either.
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Post by katieanna on Jul 13, 2015 16:49:02 GMT
If you don't accept the explanation that deformities/abnormalities exist because of the condition of the world in which we live, then I honestly don't know how else to explain it. That explanation is in no way a "diversion" - it is the answer to your question from my perspective as a born again believer. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." The bible tells us that after each day of creation, including the day in which He made Adam and Eve (male and female), God said "It was good." When God initially created the world, it was perfect. He designed it in such a way that everything worked perfectly within His will. And it would have continued to do so had He either not given man a free will or if man had never chosen to sin. When Adam sinned, it did not change God's design for how things are to work perfectly together; but it did change the dynamics. I still say that because of the fallen condition of the world, our bodies and our minds are not perfect. We were initially designed to exist with God forever in our original bodies ...that was God's perfect plan for us. But that changed when sin entered the world. Our bodies are now mortal which means that they will die and return to dust. (But our souls will live forever and for those who know Him as Lord and Savior, that is a blessing beyond comprehension. It is also for "whosoever will." No one need be left out.) The condition of people who are born with both sexes falls under the "fallen world" category, just as every heartache, disease, accident, etc. fall under that category. These things are the result of living in a sin-cursed world. I know that the term "sin-cursed" is total anathema to most peas. But if you believe in an Almighty Creator Who has given us His Word as a guidebook for our lives, then that's how you would view the woes in life. That doesn't mean that we dismiss the suffering that is rampant in the world today because we know that God has not abandoned us. We've been blessed today with an abundance of knowledge and scientific and medical wisdom. People who are born with physical needs have the chance to be cured, or if not cured, to live a better quality of life than they would have had without those achievements. While it is not always 100% for every single person, there is still hope where there had been none before. Which brings me to your particular question: I don't know if I can answer your question to your satisfaction because I know very little about it. But I'll assume that the capability exists to successfully treat people with that condition so that they can live their life as either a man or a woman. From what I understand of God's nature through His Word, I can not imagine Him finding fault in that person's decision to medically become a particular sex and then for that person to marry. See, I knew we could do this. We have been focused on different things. You've been addressing why our bodies aren't perfect, and I've been addressing living a normal life with an unusual body. No, surgeries have been very disappointing and have left people sterile, confused and depressed. A newer approach is to leave young children intact. www.isna.org/node/138 So you see, that beautiful passage does not include everyone and because it doesn't, it is not a sound argument against same-sex marriages. Couples who are same-sex have every reason to argue that this passage does not include them, either. Are you referring to this passage? "4 And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate."Note that Jesus said "Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female..." When they were originally made there was no sin in the world. Male and female is still God's perfect design...and where Jesus continues with the man joining with his wife, that is also God's perfect design for the family. The former situation is an anomaly due to living in the current world. But I fail to see where same-sex couples are related to hermaphrodites as they are two very different situations. I agree with you that we are focusing on two different things but I think that is because we view them from two totally different perspectives.
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 13, 2015 22:42:42 GMT
See, I knew we could do this. We have been focused on different things. You've been addressing why our bodies aren't perfect, and I've been addressing living a normal life with an unusual body. No, surgeries have been very disappointing and have left people sterile, confused and depressed. A newer approach is to leave young children intact. www.isna.org/node/138 So you see, that beautiful passage does not include everyone and because it doesn't, it is not a sound argument against same-sex marriages. Couples who are same-sex have every reason to argue that this passage does not include them, either. Are you referring to this passage? "4 And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate."Note that Jesus said "Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female..." When they were originally made there was no sin in the world. Male and female is still God's perfect design...and where Jesus continues with the man joining with his wife, that is also God's perfect design for the family. The former situation is an anomaly due to living in the current world. But I fail to see where same-sex couples are related to hermaphrodites as they are two very different situations. I agree with you that we are focusing on two different things but I think that is because we view them from two totally different perspectives. Yes, that is the passage Skypea used to defend traditional marriage. It is one I would probably use if I thought there was any justification for continuing to deny civil rights under the law. It is a solid reason why a particular church may refuse to perform same-sex weddings. That's all philosophical, though. I appreciate you continuing to enlighten me on this all being a consequence of original sin; the idea that this is not of God's design. I don't agree nor disagree. That's not what I think about. I think about the reality of true lives. The people living today who find someone to share all of life's hardships with. The overwhelming reality of what it is like to be forced to live without someone to love. The crushing loneliness and despair that is so hard to contain. We as a country have no right to force that on our people. What was the original Plan A became Plan B with Adam and Eve. I believe that each soul is given a life's purpose and their own unique set of characteristics and challenges by design by the Creator. And because this is by design, God working within Plan B uses these imperfect bodies to enable our souls to learn important lessons. I can not say this is against God's intentions for us now because that is arrogance of the highest order and blasphemy to me. No where have you considered the reality of what people live with in your argument. No where have you described what the actual life of an LGBTQ person should look like. It's all fine and well to tell some people not to behave as everyone else and settle down with the person they love, but it is quite another to give them a reasonable alternative. So what would you like someone to tell you if they think you should be denied the same civil rights they enjoy? What would inspire you with the knowledge that God loves you? What would help you find your purpose for your life? Do you think you would be satisfied to know that in the beginning, God created us male and female and be left with that alone? That your body or your ability to love did not follow this original Plan A and therefore you are to be denied knowing true love for the entirety of your life? And if this was acceptable you to bear for yourself, could you force this on your fellow LGBTQ neighbors? I couldn't.
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Post by katieanna on Jul 14, 2015 20:53:29 GMT
Yes, that is the passage Skypea used to defend traditional marriage. It is one I would probably use if I thought there was any justification for continuing to deny civil rights under the law. It is a solid reason why a particular church may refuse to perform same-sex weddings. That's all philosophical, though. I appreciate you continuing to enlighten me on this all being a consequence of original sin; the idea that this is not of God's design. I don't agree nor disagree. That's not what I think about. I think about the reality of true lives. The people living today who find someone to share all of life's hardships with. The overwhelming reality of what it is like to be forced to live without someone to love. The crushing loneliness and despair that is so hard to contain. We as a country have no right to force that on our people. What was the original Plan A became Plan B with Adam and Eve. I believe that each soul is given a life's purpose and their own unique set of characteristics and challenges by design by the Creator. And because this is by design, God working within Plan B uses these imperfect bodies to enable our souls to learn important lessons. I can not say this is against God's intentions for us now because that is arrogance of the highest order and blasphemy to me. No where have you considered the reality of what people live with in your argument. No where have you described what the actual life of an LGBTQ person should look like. It's all fine and well to tell some people not to behave as everyone else and settle down with the person they love, but it is quite another to give them a reasonable alternative. So what would you like someone to tell you if they think you should be denied the same civil rights they enjoy? What would inspire you with the knowledge that God loves you? What would help you find your purpose for your life? Do you think you would be satisfied to know that in the beginning, God created us male and female and be left with that alone? That your body or your ability to love did not follow this original Plan A and therefore you are to be denied knowing true love for the entirety of your life? And if this was acceptable you to bear for yourself, could you force this on your fellow LGBTQ neighbors? I couldn't. From what I understand from the Bible, there is only Plan A. While the dynamics have changed, there is still only Plan A. God didn’t leave us in ignorance when it comes to His Will. He gave us the Holy Spirit within us and His Word to guide us within His Will so that we can know His desires for us. His Spirit indwells all those who welcome Him into their hearts and His Word is revealed to us in the bible. You may view it as arrogance and blasphemy that I say it is God’s design; but the Lord gave us a mind so that we can learn, read, decipher and understand. His Word makes it very clear how He wants us to live. As Hebrews 13:8 tells us: “Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and forever.” His Word is as relevant today as it was when His prophets wrote them. His Will and Way do not change because man’s societal norms change. During the sexual revolution of the 60s and 70s, young heterosexual couples claimed that they didn’t need to get married; that a marriage certificate (or “that piece of paper” as they called it) wasn’t needed to prove their love for their partner. To the shock of their parents and grandparents, young people started living together outside of marriage. This reaction may sound really strange to the young people of today because living together (outside of marriage) is so prevalent today that no one thinks twice about it anymore. It’s so acceptable, in fact, that I bet half the peas have never heard the archaic term “shacking up.” During those crucial years of changing norms, the original question of kissing on the first date became the question of “doing it” or “going all the way” on the first date. Believe it or not but back then, girls who “did it” on the first date were considered “fast” or were considered just plain “sluts.” But as the revolution kicked into gear, more and more couples were “doing it” with the justification that they were in love, so why should they hold back? Yet one of the consequences for “not holding back” was unwanted pregnancies. How many children were born to young girls or couples who were not yet ready to become parents; how many of those babies had been aborted? How many children have grown up in broken homes? Why is divorce so prevalent in our society? During those years I attended a Catholic Church. I no longer remember if I had heard this preached in a sermon at church by our stoic Monsignor or if I had read it somewhere – but I recall the warning that due to the rampant sexualization of our society, the day would come when we will accept homosexual marriages in our churches. No one believed it then, including me; yet here we are… Am I the only one who sees the irony of the young heterosexual couples of the 60s and 70s protesting the need to get married; and the gay couples of today wanting to get married? If there’s one thing that we should have learned during those years is that sex and love are two different things. I think that (and this is my opinion only) that many young people confuse sexual attraction with love. Or that if someone is attracted to them that they mistake that attraction for love. As a society, American culture is saturated with sex. Most popular music, movies, television shows, advertising, books, you name it – are so replete with sexual situations and innuendos that we don’t realize how offensive it is to people whose cultures do not revolve around sex. And then we wonder why there are so many people addicted to porn sites, why there are seemingly so many sexual predators, why our children can’t even play outdoors anymore without them being constantly watched for fear that a stranger will snatch them away? I believe that God bestowed sex upon the human race as a special act to be performed between a committed man and woman within the protective security of the marriage contract. That act symbolically binds the man and woman “to become one flesh” and that it is within this special union that the propagation of the family unfolds, to the glory of God the Father. I believe that this is His Will for mankind. (There is further symbolism of man (Christ) and His bride (the church: Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her ) But does that mean that it will always be that way? Of course not. Because of the condition of the world in which we live, there will always be men who run out on their wives or women who run out on their husbands. There will be people who will divorce, who will have children outside of marriage, and there will be people who will use sex in ways that it was not intended to be used. Yet, the Supreme Court has now made homosexual marriage the law of the land. Because I believe that nothing happens outside God’s knowledge and nothing happens beyond His permissible Will, this new law now governs our land and God is allowing it just as God, through Moses, allowed the Jewish men to divorce their wives: My explanation is probably not one that you will agree with (or maybe even understand, I don’t know), but I want to thank you for listening and for discussing it as civilly as you have with me. That doesn’t often happen in these types of threads.
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