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Post by katieanna on Jun 30, 2015 18:47:18 GMT
Skypea - males and females will continue to leave their parents and marry, just as you quoted. Where is the mention of those who were created both male and female, though? Because hermaphrodites have been with us throughout the human existence. Or the other variations of genetic markers like XXY, XXYY, fragile X, etc. Gender is not always black and white and genetic mutations to occur. True...but then all forms of developmental dis-functions and genetic mutations have been with us throughout human existence. I don't see having " Fragile x syndrome (FXS) or XXY, etc. is any less abnormal than being born armless or with extra fingers. How do you equate a hermaphrodite with a gay person? It seems to me that they are two different issues. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2015 18:51:05 GMT
Or the other variations of genetic markers like XXY, XXYY, fragile X, etc. Gender is not always black and white and genetic mutations to occur. True...but then all forms of developmental dis-functions and genetic mutations have been with us throughout human existence. I don't see having " Fragile x syndrome (FXS) or XXY, etc. is any less abnormal than being born armless or with extra fingers. How do you equate a hermaphrodite with a gay person? It seems to me that they are two different issues. People say God doesn't make mistakes or make people gay. That is obviously not true. There are people born intersex or with variations on the usual sex of male or female. |
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Post by Skypea on Jun 30, 2015 21:02:52 GMT
I have mixed feelings about this. I grew up in a church where if you were gay and living with someone else you would be excommunicated. If you had sex before marriage or had an affair you were excommunicated or disfellowshipped (sp?) Of course this was based on an honor system as well. When an openly lesbian couple is receiving communion, I don't understand why the Catholic church even has these policies in place if there's no enforcement when the "sin" is evident? Why is it so lax? Years ago my cousin was living with her then fiance and was going to convert to the Catholic church and get married in the church as well. As long as they lived in separate areas of the house, then that was okay.  I guess with any religion, it depends on the bishop/pastor/priest of the congregation and not necessarily the doctrine. Hmmm. Well, excommunication is pretty rare and generally reserved for people whose sin is a matter of public display. Clergy members who are promoting ideas against doctrine seem to be the most common to be excommunicated. It seems like the church's general attitude is to give people the benefit of the doubt until there is no doubt, which is what a public display would create. I remember a brouhaha several years ago when some Catholic clergy announced they would withhold communion from certain pro-choice politicians. Again, public declarations - not private members holding a personal conviction antithetical to what the church teaches. To my knowledge, the church does not consider itself a legal entity to "enforce" people's compliance. There is no Catholic membership card. Parishes are often large and open to anyone, and you or I or anyone at all could walk into Mass this Sunday and receive communion. When I was in the process of leaving religion behind, I spoke with a priest who said to me that the church doesn't excommunicate people, people excommunicate themselves with their choices, and the church just acknowledges the fact when circumstances force them to do so. And it's also worth pointing out that even those excommunicated are still considered Catholic - they just aren't eligible to receive sacraments or participate in the leadership of the church - and are only a confession and repentance away from being returned to full communion (as my aunts like to remind me periodically).  even if one leaves the RCC and denounces them, they still will say you are Catholic. Unless it isn't convenient for them. I'm sure they do keep people on their 'count', never to be removed. (pad those numbers!) On a C forum they will tell you that you ARE still C no matter how much you denounce it. And they will tell you that you need to 'coooome home'. lol! Much like the LDS, you have to 'believe' in the pope too. (for LDS it is JS) and they've added Mary now as co-redeemer.
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Post by Skypea on Jun 30, 2015 21:14:07 GMT
I think it really depends on how strongly I feel about the subject and how it is phrased during a sermon. Thankfully I haven't experienced all of the hypocrisy that so many have here. I'm wondering how much was actually experienced and how much was perceived and/or assumed. My former church probably said that they were reaffirming their stance against gay marriage this weekend too. That doesn't make them hypocrites. When things come up in the news they "reaffirm" their stance. They don't focus just on one issue/sin. The message is much more about loving thy neighbor. If abortion was a hot topic nationally, that would be addressed on Sunday too. What a lot of people fail to understand, including clergy themselves, is that a church is not a collection of perfect people. It is a gathering of sinners that try to grow closer to God so that they sin less. You don't have to be perfect to acknowledge sin in yourself or others. It isn't hypocritical to say "Bob, I cheated on my wife. You need to stop cheating on yours. I know the damage it can cause." It isn't even hypocritical to say "Bob, you're cheating on your wife. I'm cheating on mine. We have to stop doing this because it is going to end up hurting a lot of people." When we were visiting churches we attended one in particular for several weeks. It was looking like we were going to settle down there. But the last sermon I heard was focused 100% on how evil Mormons are and how they aren't Christians. I couldn't rationalize that with anything. The sermon was harsh, not love thy neighbor at all, and was given more from a personal opinion than Biblical standing. While I'm not follower of Biblical literalism by any means, but I do think that if a pastor is using that as his foundation, he needs to be able to back up all of his sermon with the Bible. if that were so, none of the Apostles would have been teaching what Jesus taught them either.
and if he had wanted to back that up with scripture, he could have easily done so if he had knowledge of scripture and believed in it.
If what is taught isn't supported by scripture (the Bible, not Holy Tradition or Sacred Tradition or other writings) then I wouldn't be going there.
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~Lauren~
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by ~Lauren~ on Jun 30, 2015 21:16:59 GMT
Does a religious institution have to be 100% in sync with everyone of my beliefs in order for me to attend? IMO, no. I guess each person has their "deal-breaker" issues. If this is one of yours, then you probably should leave. It would not be one for me.
Then again, when people claim "my god does (or doesn't do) _____", then I feel they really have created their own religion and should forego other organized religious institutions.
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anniebygaslight
Drama Llama
I'd love a cup of tea. #1966
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Location: Third Rock from the sun.
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Post by anniebygaslight on Jun 30, 2015 21:17:13 GMT
You can 'resign' from the Catholic Church. ~click~. |
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 1, 2015 3:12:31 GMT
Skypea - males and females will continue to leave their parents and marry, just as you quoted. Where is the mention of those who were created both male and female, though? Because hermaphrodites have been with us throughout the human existence. FTFY : "people who are intersex" outdated terminology I phrased that in terms I hoped Skypea wouldn't continue to ignore. Intersex is a better word choice to use now, I agree. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2015 3:19:49 GMT
After working all week and handling 3 kids, you bet I'd want to spend my Sunday with a group of people who are open minded, progressive, and accepting of everyone.
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 1, 2015 3:21:16 GMT
Or the other variations of genetic markers like XXY, XXYY, fragile X, etc. Gender is not always black and white and genetic mutations to occur. True...but then all forms of developmental dis-functions and genetic mutations have been with us throughout human existence. I don't see having " Fragile x syndrome (FXS) or XXY, etc. is any less abnormal than being born armless or with extra fingers. How do you equate a hermaphrodite with a gay person? It seems to me that they are two different issues. If you were asking me...? Skypea brought the passage from the Bible that says we were created male and female in support of traditional marriage over equal marriage. I want to know how that verse includes those of us who aren't so easily considered one sex or the other. I don't dismiss the Bible. I think that it's difficult to read it in absolute black and white terms like Skypea does, and I want to know how this verse applies to those who are undeniably born with both sexes. (Implicit in that question is how people with any deviation from that supposed normal are included.) |
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 1, 2015 3:51:33 GMT
I think it really depends on how strongly I feel about the subject and how it is phrased during a sermon. Thankfully I haven't experienced all of the hypocrisy that so many have here. I'm wondering how much was actually experienced and how much was perceived and/or assumed. My former church probably said that they were reaffirming their stance against gay marriage this weekend too. That doesn't make them hypocrites. When things come up in the news they "reaffirm" their stance. They don't focus just on one issue/sin. The message is much more about loving thy neighbor. If abortion was a hot topic nationally, that would be addressed on Sunday too. What a lot of people fail to understand, including clergy themselves, is that a church is not a collection of perfect people. It is a gathering of sinners that try to grow closer to God so that they sin less. You don't have to be perfect to acknowledge sin in yourself or others. It isn't hypocritical to say "Bob, I cheated on my wife. You need to stop cheating on yours. I know the damage it can cause." It isn't even hypocritical to say "Bob, you're cheating on your wife. I'm cheating on mine. We have to stop doing this because it is going to end up hurting a lot of people." When we were visiting churches we attended one in particular for several weeks. It was looking like we were going to settle down there. But the last sermon I heard was focused 100% on how evil Mormons are and how they aren't Christians. I couldn't rationalize that with anything. The sermon was harsh, not love thy neighbor at all, and was given more from a personal opinion than Biblical standing. While I'm not follower of Biblical literalism by any means, but I do think that if a pastor is using that as his foundation, he needs to be able to back up all of his sermon with the Bible. if that were so, none of the Apostles would have been teaching what Jesus taught them either.
and if he had wanted to back that up with scripture, he could have easily done so if he had knowledge of scripture and believed in it.
If what is taught isn't supported by scripture (the Bible, not Holy Tradition or Sacred Tradition or other writings) then I wouldn't be going there.
But you did go there. You are the one who introduced the traditional marriage recitation that God created us male and female to this thread. Personally, I think it's a beautiful passage and I included it in my own wedding ceremony. But, I am not using that verse(s) as justification against same-sex marriages. I think anyone who does use this as justification needs to explain where in this book written by men is God's plan for those who aren't strictly male or female. You, Skypea, did indeed go there. Now, I'd appreciate an answer to my question. |
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Post by katieanna on Jul 1, 2015 12:41:54 GMT
People say God doesn't make mistakes or make people gay. That is obviously not true. There are people born intersex or with variations on the usual sex of male or female. But that's an abnormality, just as in some people are born with Downs Syndrome, extra limbs or maybe no limbs, or other conditions that are considered abnormal. Unfortunately, that is the human condition; it doesn't mean that God makes mistakes or that He makes people gay. Skypea brought the passage from the Bible that says we were created male and female in support of traditional marriage over equal marriage. I want to know how that verse includes those of us who aren't so easily considered one sex or the other. I don't dismiss the Bible. I think that it's difficult to read it in absolute black and white terms like Skypea does, and I want to know how this verse applies to those who are undeniably born with both sexes. (Implicit in that question is how people with any deviation from that supposed normal are included.) If you don't dismiss the Bible, then am I to understand that you accept that when Adam disobeyed God, sin entered the world and so did the consequences thereof? Yes, there are people born with both sexes but as I stated above, that is an abnormality not unlike many abnormalities that some people are born with. I don't quite understand how that relates with homosexuality. I see them as two separate things. |
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 1, 2015 19:18:16 GMT
People say God doesn't make mistakes or make people gay. That is obviously not true. There are people born intersex or with variations on the usual sex of male or female. But that's an abnormality, just as in some people are born with Downs Syndrome, extra limbs or maybe no limbs, or other conditions that are considered abnormal. Unfortunately, that is the human condition; it doesn't mean that God makes mistakes or that He makes people gay. Skypea brought the passage from the Bible that says we were created male and female in support of traditional marriage over equal marriage. I want to know how that verse includes those of us who aren't so easily considered one sex or the other. I don't dismiss the Bible. I think that it's difficult to read it in absolute black and white terms like Skypea does, and I want to know how this verse applies to those who are undeniably born with both sexes. (Implicit in that question is how people with any deviation from that supposed normal are included.) If you don't dismiss the Bible, then am I to understand that you accept that when Adam disobeyed God, sin entered the world and so did the consequences thereof? Yes, there are people born with both sexes but as I stated above, that is an abnormality not unlike many abnormalities that some people are born with. I don't quite understand how that relates with homosexuality. I see them as two separate things. I believe in an Adam and Eve. I don't know about the apple. It seems like a mistake people make, especially people with no experience. To condemn trillions of future people because of a childish act of defiance seems like I'm missing part of the story. People make mistakes. People deliberately do bad. There is sin in this world. None of us are perfect. Jesus came and gave his life so that our wrongs won't keep us from God. If that's not close enough to what you believe, than it's not close enough. Whatever. I don't understand your easy dismissal of abnormalities. Those occur in accordance with the laws of nature created by God, hence they are part of God's plan. If life didn't recreate by the way that it does, adaptive mutations wouldn't exist and therefore, neither would abnormalities. I don't consider homosexuality as abnormal. It occurs normally in a small percentage of any population. |
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Post by katieanna on Jul 2, 2015 18:48:59 GMT
But that's an abnormality, just as in some people are born with Downs Syndrome, extra limbs or maybe no limbs, or other conditions that are considered abnormal. Unfortunately, that is the human condition; it doesn't mean that God makes mistakes or that He makes people gay. If you don't dismiss the Bible, then am I to understand that you accept that when Adam disobeyed God, sin entered the world and so did the consequences thereof? Yes, there are people born with both sexes but as I stated above, that is an abnormality not unlike many abnormalities that some people are born with. I don't quite understand how that relates with homosexuality. I see them as two separate things. I believe in an Adam and Eve. I don't know about the apple. It seems like a mistake people make, especially people with no experience. To condemn trillions of future people because of a childish act of defiance seems like I'm missing part of the story. Yes, I think you are. I have no problems with what you said here. But Adam lived in a perfect world. He had no reason to make a mistake. I, too, used to wonder why God would punish the entire world for one man's mistake. I can't say that I totally understand it now but I think that Adam's perfect environment had something to do with it, along with his freedom of choice. Since God is all-powerful and all-knowing only He retains the justification in applying Adam's sin to all mankind. But just as Adam's sin was attributed to all mankind, so is Christ's death and resurrection apply to all who will receive it. I never said that homosexuality was abnormal. I said that people born with both sexes was abnormal. |
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 2, 2015 19:24:33 GMT
I don't understand your easy dismissal of abnormalities. Those occur in accordance with the laws of nature created by God, hence they are part of God's plan. If life didn't recreate by the way that it does, adaptive mutations wouldn't exist and therefore, neither would abnormalities. I don't consider homosexuality as abnormal. It occurs normally in a small percentage of any population. I never said that homosexuality was abnormal. I said that people born with both sexes was abnormal. Around and around you go, never answering the question. Abnormal to us is not abnormal to God. Abnormalities due to genetic mutations occur in a predictable fashion in accordance with God's natural laws. Among those mutations are those that define the sex of an individual. Some people are born with both sexes. They are not clearly male or female. Where are they addressed in the Bible? |
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Post by mikklynn on Jul 2, 2015 19:27:56 GMT
I'm so conflicted....part of me feels (biblically) that marriage should be between a man and woman but I also believe that (legally) everyone should have the right to wed (I know I contradict my own self). I kind of feel the same way, like, can't everyone win? This very much feeds my people pleasing nature. I am not conflicted, but I understand what you are saying.
In my opinion, this is a civil rights issue. Everyone should be entitled to the same legal rights provided by marriage, straight or gay.
I firmly believe you are born heterosexual or homosexual. It's not a choice or a lifestyle.
I also believe in freedom of religion. So, everyone should be free to marry whom they choose, but no particular church should be forced to marry same sex couples.
I left my previous church because I don't believe hatred should be preached in church. I belong to a Lutheran church with a large sign "All are welcome".
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Post by scrapqueen01 on Jul 2, 2015 20:00:47 GMT
Intersex isn't mentioned anywhere in the Bible. The closest you will find are men who were eunuchs who were either born that way, chose to be one or had it forced upon them. Only Adam and Eve were born perfect. When sin entered the world through them sickness, disabilities and genetic disorders were introduced to humans.
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Post by freecharlie on Jul 2, 2015 20:07:29 GMT
We left our church of 25 years three years ago for a variety of reasons, this being one of them. Many of the members are my "friends" on Facebook and between this issue and the Confederate flag one, I am reminded why I left that congregation. It really makes me sad because otherwise I love these people. I know I need to unfriend them on Facebook because it only serves to irritate and sadden me to witness their complete unChristian attitudes. We tried a different church but have ultimately given up on it too. I am currently completely disenchanted with 'organized' religion and really don't think I can ever go back to attending church. I think i am on my own journey, several months along, of figuring out how i feel about organized religion as a whole. The. SCOTUS ruling just blew it up in my face. I grew attending church but only 4 years ago, after a 15 year hiatus, did DH and i start attending together here in our new to us small town. At the time our DDs were 3 and 6. Now they are nearly 7 and 10. I am becoming increasingly unsure if I want to continue on with organized religion. But a lot of our friends attend our church, though it's far from being our main social life. I am just really struggling overall where i am supposed to guide our family and even, 'what do i believe'? Ftr, DH couldn't care less if we attend church or not. He has always been skeptical of organized religion but attends for the girls and me. Like someone mentioned above,the scotus ruling has further caused me to question what i may be exposing my kids to even though my intentions are good. My church is definately not preaching hate but the denomination as a whole and the pastor of my church clearly fall onn the side of the 'Bible says homosexuality is a sin.' The pastor quoted billy graham in Sunday's sermon saying that it is the spirits job to convict, God's job to judge and our job to love. But interwoven in the message was that homosexuality is a sin. And if we leave, then what? What does it look like to teach your kids about God and provide them that when you're not particularly religious yourself?My kids went to VBS each summer as their choice. That and going to church with friends is pretty much their religious experience and yet both of my boys believe in Jesus and God, even though we are not a religious household. When I was young, my parents didn't go to church, I rode a bus to church and my mom picked me up. |
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Post by flanz on Jul 3, 2015 3:34:46 GMT
I left the denomination I grew up in back in 1998 over this issue. My values and what I believed weren't in the official church doctrine and official doctrine included things I knew I could never believe. I get the whole "be an agent of change" thing but I have been so much happier in my new denomination, especially now that I have children and they are being raised in a tradition I am more comfortable with. Me too! A recovered Catholic, I am now a very happy Unitarian Universalist. I could never again a church whose values were not in line with my own! |
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Post by lucyg on Jul 3, 2015 3:36:45 GMT
leftturnonly said: I never said that homosexuality was abnormal. I said that people born with both sexes was abnormal. Here is what you said above: So it did sound as though you were saying people aren't born gay. Sorry for the weird quoting. Board is definitely off tonight. |
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Post by flanz on Jul 3, 2015 3:40:59 GMT
I was faced with this same conflict about ten years ago. But at that time I already suspected I had a gay child (which I did). My biggest concern at the time was how could I foster a high sense of self-worth in my child and hope for a happy future if the church, and its God, taught him he was only worthy of earthly love if he lied about who he was, or otherwise remain celibate. That initiated a journey that took me out of that church, and eventually religion, for good. But obviously not everyone will follow the same path. As far as changing things from within, the church I left has little tolerance for public dissent or call for change, but yours might be different. If you have children, think about what they are being taught about LGBTQ people in your current church, and then imagine if one of them was LGBTQ themselves. Amen, Stittsygirl!! You are a terrific Mom and your child is very, very lucky to have you! When I left Catholicism our kids were tweens and I had no idea if one or both might be homosexual. Turns out they are not. But I wanted them to know that I would love them exactly the same if they were, and no way would I continue exposing them to a church that was homophobic. I started walking in marriage equality marches and showed them through my actions (having gay friends over for dinner, etc.) that your sexual orientation and gender identity has no impact on your worthiness as a person. I was with thousands of Unitarian Universalists at an annual conference in Portland last Friday when the SCOTUS ruling on marriage equality came down. Many of the clergy and members are gay - and it was the very best place for me to celebrate this step forward with these great folks. There is MUCH work yet to be done. A SCOTUS ruling does not wipe out the homophobia (or rampant racism) that still exist in our country, but it was definitely a day of celebration! Hugs to you for being the Mom that you are!!~! |
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Post by flanz on Jul 3, 2015 3:47:09 GMT
We left our church of 25 years three years ago for a variety of reasons, this being one of them. Many of the members are my "friends" on Facebook and between this issue and the Confederate flag one, I am reminded why I left that congregation. It really makes me sad because otherwise I love these people. I know I need to unfriend them on Facebook because it only serves to irritate and sadden me to witness their complete unChristian attitudes. We tried a different church but have ultimately given up on it too. I am currently completely disenchanted with 'organized' religion and really don't think I can ever go back to attending church. Please look into Unitarian Universalism if you can. Check out this link as to "what we believe." www.uua.org/beliefs/what-we-believeI was sure I would never go to "church" ever again, and after 6 or 7 unchurched years, knew I had found my spiritual home and wish that we had raised our kids in this denomination! Good luck finding your own path. There ARE liberal religions out there! (Small number of UUs are Christian, many are atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, etc. We value our differences and do not preach ONE TRUTH - there is NO dogma. We are guided by 7 principles which you can read about if you click on the link above.) |
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Post by flanz on Jul 3, 2015 3:51:42 GMT
If you are in a church that says love the sinner, hate the sin then you're sitting in a paradox. Since gay is not a choice, no matter what anyone says to the contrary, then you are forced to believe that your deity created this gay person knowing in advance that he or she would be doomed to either a life of unrepentant sin by being in a gay relationship or doomed to a lonely life of celibacy if they chose to follow the teachings of the church. If they feel forced to choose the latter then you have think the deity relegating the person to a life without the fulfillment of a long term relationship is somehow not a complete asshole and is still worth of your love and devotion. I couldn't do it, personally. But I come at this as a person who never has and never will have any use for either a deity or a religion. I know it isn't as easy to leave faith behind for someone who hasn't come up secular like I did. In the end you've got to follow your heart and do what you think is right. Comp, I totally accept your stance that you don't have any use for religion. I just have to say that I adore my atheist minister who is also a spiritual humanist. Our services are spiritual, life affirming and thought provoking, and I have met the BEST people at my UU congregation! |
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Post by flanz on Jul 3, 2015 4:01:14 GMT
After three days of just utter bullshit from my "Christian" friends and family I had enough. I posted this article, I'm Christian, unless you are gay. I admit it, I did some hand-slapping, but enough is enough. Then Catholic Memes posted something so utterly offensive I said that is it, I am done. DONE. My God is an AWESOME God. The God I believe in is compassionate and kind and loving to His people. The God I believe in would be heartsick over what is being said and His Son would be disappointed at the hatred being spewed in His name. The bullshit spewed over the internet in the last few days has been far from loving and compassionate and kind.
DONE.
Thanks so much for sharing this, Charlotte. I just posted it to FB. I am not a Christian, but many of my friends are. |
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stittsygirl
Pearl Clutcher
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Location: In the leaves and rain.
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Post by stittsygirl on Jul 3, 2015 4:05:03 GMT
I was faced with this same conflict about ten years ago. But at that time I already suspected I had a gay child (which I did). My biggest concern at the time was how could I foster a high sense of self-worth in my child and hope for a happy future if the church, and its God, taught him he was only worthy of earthly love if he lied about who he was, or otherwise remain celibate. That initiated a journey that took me out of that church, and eventually religion, for good. But obviously not everyone will follow the same path. As far as changing things from within, the church I left has little tolerance for public dissent or call for change, but yours might be different. If you have children, think about what they are being taught about LGBTQ people in your current church, and then imagine if one of them was LGBTQ themselves. Amen, Stittsygirl!! You are a terrific Mom and your child is very, very lucky to have you! When I left Catholicism our kids were tweens and I had no idea if one or both might be homosexual. Turns out they are not. But I wanted them to know that I would love them exactly the same if they were, and no way would I continue exposing them to a church that was homophobic. I started walking in marriage equality marches and showed them through my actions (having gay friends over for dinner, etc.) that your sexual orientation and gender identity has no impact on your worthiness as a person. I was with thousands of Unitarian Universalists at an annual conference in Portland last Friday when the SCOTUS ruling on marriage equality came down. Many of the clergy and members are gay - and it was the very best place for me to celebrate this step forward with these great folks. There is MUCH work yet to be done. A SCOTUS ruling does not wipe out the homophobia (or rampant racism) that still exist in our country, but it was definitely a day of celebration! Hugs to you for being the Mom that you are!!~! Thank you, that's sweet. It was really a no-brainer for me in the end. If I can raise responsible children who are able to contribute positively to their communities, appreciate diversity, and treat others with compassion and respect (none of that requires religion or even a belief in god), then I don't give a darn about their sexualities or any other part of their unique personalities. Sitting in a church week after week that had a very us vs. them mentality was becoming more and more difficult, until I could no longer do it, because I knew the church was wrong about the them. I don't want to raise my kids with that same sort of mentality, particularly if they would have also been put in the them category, according to the tenets of the faith we belonged to. Getting my children out of that religion is one of the best things I've ever done for them. I believe we've talked about the UU before, and I've heard only good things about the organization. It may be something I look into when my current life settles down a bit, but I'm glad you and so many others have found a place there  . |
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Post by crittsmom on Jul 3, 2015 4:09:38 GMT
I don't know where my church even stands on this issue, I expected the senior pastor to say something last Sunday ...... still waiting......
So what I really think is we are to love your neighbor as you love yourself is going to apply here. So that is where we really stand.
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Post by tania7424 on Jul 3, 2015 6:33:15 GMT
My church does not support gay marriage, and we stay. I'm fully capable of separating my support for social and legal issues from the doctrine of my church (LCMS, ftr). It is just one issue. My pastor has said that marriage is intended to be between a man and woman, stressing intended. Whether or not that is the case is entirely different. And it does need to be legal, from a social standpoint. I know I'm not the only one in my congregation who believes that either, but fully supports the church.
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cycworker
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by cycworker on Jul 3, 2015 6:51:17 GMT
I stay at my church despite my belief in marriage equality because of many of the reasons moveablefeast noted. I've tried other churches and they didn't feel right. The nice thing in my church, as I've noted before, is that we rarely have sermons that relate to this issue. And the one time we did, it was my pastor saying that she was tired of the contempt on both sides... it was very much in line with the sermon in the original post. We had an issue here where the City Council cancelled Leadercast, at our conference centre because Chik Fil A was a sponsor in the US. They went so far as to try to ban churches from ever renting the centre. A compromise was reached. It led to good discussions at church. Our pastor reinforced the idea of 'In the essentials we have unity. In the non essentials we have liberty. In all things we have love.'
Essentials = The gospel. Salvation by grace. Divinity of Christ. Etc., etc.
Non essentials - any of the social issues; that is up to your conscience. The age of the Earth. Basically, if it's not a salvation issue, it's a non essential. The church has an 'official' stance on all of them, but we all have freedom of conscience. I see the younger folks in our church are more in favour of marriage equality; I think the church's official stance my change to give pastors freedom of conscience in this area. Right now we do not perform marriage ceremonies.
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 3, 2015 8:36:13 GMT
4 And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”
- Maybe if I quote and link your name enough you will actually pay attention to my sincere question and come back here with a real answer. God made MOST of us male or female. He made some of us male AND female together in one body. What is God's plan for them? Where are they addressed in the Bible? Where does it say that it is against God's plan for these individuals to marry? |
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 3, 2015 8:53:54 GMT
Intersex isn't mentioned anywhere in the Bible. The closest you will find are men who were eunuchs who were either born that way, chose to be one or had it forced upon them. Only Adam and Eve were born perfect. When sin entered the world through them sickness, disabilities and genetic disorders were introduced to humans. Eunuchs are the closest I know of, which isn't exactly the same thing, as you have pointed out. And what you've said about them is that they weren't born perfect because of original sin. You didn't clarify though... not perfect in your eyes or not perfect in the eyes of God? Because if you are going to argue that any child is born not perfect to God, then you've got some explaining to do. Not specifically to you, Scrapqueen... I contend that abnormalities are not mistakes but part of God's bigger picture that we don't understand by design. Born without an arm? Oh, you're just an abnormality. Born intersexed or with rare chromosomal conditions? Oh, you're just an abnormality. Born to love someone of the same sex? God help you! So dismissive of whole groups of people. There have been rulers throughout history who have believed exactly that |
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Post by scrapqueen01 on Jul 3, 2015 13:17:14 GMT
Oh I never meant to imply that abnormalities are mistakes because God doesn't make mistakes. It's just that they are just a result of the fall of man. When people are born with disorders and disabilities, I'm including myself in this since I was born disabled, we are born this way for a reason. We may not understand why as we cannot see the big picture like God can. I'm more than likely doing a piss-poor job of explaining what is in my brain. Lack of coffee isn't helping.
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My original pea date was November 1999 and my number was 1803
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