|
Post by Merge on Jul 26, 2014 23:35:10 GMT
Yes, I consider myself a feminist. But I don't think that anyone, male or female, can "have it all" in terms of an ultra-successful career and being great, present parent.
I know DH and I have both made career decisions that limited our earning power in order to have better work/life balance and be better parents. I consider myself fortunate that he has always been hands-on with our kids and ready to do his part of the housework.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
May 7, 2024 5:00:23 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2014 23:44:08 GMT
Yes, I consider myself a feminist. But I don't think that anyone, male or female, can "have it all" in terms of an ultra-successful career and bring a great, present parent.
|
|
|
Post by Barbie on Jul 27, 2014 0:14:13 GMT
You know, it used to be that a woman wasn't supposed to work after she got married, or at least after she had kids. Then it was women could work or not work. Now it's almost necessary and expected for most women to work. I think the Feminist movement had some unintended consequences. It's played a part in shifting our entire society and economy. Now many women don't have the choice to stay home and raise their children anymore.
|
|
Sweets McPea
Junior Member
Posts: 75
Jun 25, 2014 23:03:39 GMT
|
Post by Sweets McPea on Jul 27, 2014 0:31:04 GMT
I'm grateful for the right to vote and the equality I enjoy in this day and age. It was due to the work and courage of great women who came before us. They were true feminists. The women protesting Hobby Lobby for paying just sixteen ways of birth control instead of twenty not so much. I also think there is a cognitive dissonance between liberal women who call themselves feminists and yet excuse barbaric practices in the name of cultural diversity. Yes there are exceptions. But please explain to me why Ayaan Hirsi Ali was dis-invited from Brandeis University? I'm a conservative who has a lot of affection and respect for peas on both sides of the aisle. For years I've kept quiet but I guess I've decided to speak up a little.
|
|
|
Post by Linda on Jul 27, 2014 0:51:16 GMT
You know, it used to be that a woman wasn't supposed to work after she got married, or at least after she had kids. Then it was women could work or not work. Now it's almost necessary and expected for most women to work. I think the Feminist movement had some unintended consequences. It's played a part in shifting our entire society and economy. Now many women don't have the choice to stay home and raise their children anymore. I agree
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
May 7, 2024 5:00:23 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2014 0:57:05 GMT
Now many women don't have the choice to stay home and raise their children anymore. Why don't they? Because of choices they made?
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
May 7, 2024 5:00:23 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2014 0:59:13 GMT
Blaming the current economic condition on feminism and women working is just sad.
|
|
|
Post by Merge on Jul 27, 2014 1:21:14 GMT
I'm grateful for the right to vote and the equality I enjoy in this day and age. It was due to the work and courage of great women who came before us. They were true feminists. The women protesting Hobby Lobby for paying just sixteen ways of birth control instead of twenty not so much. I also think there is a cognitive dissonance between liberal women who call themselves feminists and yet excuse barbaric practices in the name of cultural diversity. Yes there are exceptions. But please explain to me why Ayaan Hirsi Ali was dis-invited from Brandeis University? Three logical problems here. One, the number of women who call themselves feminists and excuse things like genital mutilation is probably vanishingly small, if such exist at all. Please provide statistics for your claim that those who in fact oppose such practices are the "exception." Two, one does not need to be liberal to consider themselves feminist. Three, there is no relationship between this barely- or non-existent group of liberal feminists who excuse genital mutilation and honor killings and what happened at Brandeis university. The outcry against that speaker was led primarily by CAIR. I find it unfortunate that so many people choose to make the evil feminists/liberals/etc. their scapegoat for anything that's going wrong in the world. Right here on this thread, we see that feminists are apparently responsible for the fact that some women need to work outside the home, the fact that some men are selfish and infantile, and now that a Jewish-founded university caved to pressure from Islamic supporters and un-invited a planned speaker. It begins to sound like the WBC blaming natural disasters on the gays. I mean, really?
|
|
|
Post by anxiousmom on Jul 27, 2014 1:27:32 GMT
Now many women don't have the choice to stay home and raise their children anymore. Why don't they? Because of choices they made? But what choices? Not everything is about making so called bad choices. Sometimes life conspires against you and no matter what happens, staying home is not an option. And honestly? Not everyone is built to be a stay at home mom. I refuse to believe that the yard stick for parenting begins and ends with being a stay at home mom.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
May 7, 2024 5:00:23 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2014 1:32:15 GMT
I'm grateful for the right to vote and the equality I enjoy in this day and age. It was due to the work and courage of great women who came before us. They were true feminists. The women protesting Hobby Lobby for paying just sixteen ways of birth control instead of twenty not so much. I also think there is a cognitive dissonance between liberal women who call themselves feminists and yet excuse barbaric practices in the name of cultural diversity. Yes there are exceptions. But please explain to me why Ayaan Hirsi Ali was dis-invited from Brandeis University? Three logical problems here. One, the number of women who call themselves feminists and excuse things like genital mutilation is probably vanishingly small, if such exist at all. Please provide statistics for your claim that those who in fact oppose such practices are the "exception." Two, one does not need to be liberal to consider themselves feminist. Three, there is no relationship between this barely- or non-existent group of liberal feminists who excuse genital mutilation and honor killings and what happened at Brandeis university. The outcry against that speaker was led primarily by CAIR. I find it unfortunate that so many people choose to make the evil feminists/liberals/etc. their scapegoat for anything that's going wrong in the world. Right here on this thread, we see that feminists are apparently responsible for the fact that some women need to work outside the home, the fact that some men are selfish and infantile, and now that a Jewish-founded university caved to pressure from Islamic supporters and un-invited a planned speaker. It begins to sound like the WBC blaming natural disasters on the gays. I mean, really?
|
|
ReneeH20
Full Member
Posts: 452
Jun 28, 2014 16:00:48 GMT
|
Post by ReneeH20 on Jul 27, 2014 1:34:37 GMT
Blaming the current economic condition on feminism and women working is just sad. I agree and will add. There have always been women who needed to work. My grandmothers worked to help make end meet. They had their mothers and aunts to help with childcare. What about women who's husbands died or left them or couldn't work for whatever reason? They had to work.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
May 7, 2024 5:00:23 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2014 1:37:01 GMT
Why don't they? Because of choices they made? But what choices? Not everything is about making so called bad choices. Sometimes life conspires against you and no matter what happens, staying home is not an option. And honestly? Not everyone is built to be a stay at home mom. I refuse to believe that the yard stick for parenting begins and ends with being a stay at home mom. I refuse to believe it also. That's why I'm asking and I don't recall mentioned whatever choices a woman makes as being a bad choice.
|
|
|
Post by anxiousmom on Jul 27, 2014 1:40:32 GMT
Blaming the current economic condition on feminism and women working is just sad. I agree and will add. There have always been women who needed to work. My grandmothers worked to help make end meet. They had their mothers and aunts to help with childcare. What about women who's husbands died or left them or couldn't work for whatever reason? They had to work. I absolutely agree that there are circumstances that force women into the workforce. BUT...my definition of feminism means that you don't have to differentiate between the women who work because they have no choice and the women who work because they want to. True feminism (at least to me) is about not being judged by society at large for whatever they are doing-either because they were forced or because they choose to work.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
May 7, 2024 5:00:23 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2014 1:42:33 GMT
You know, it used to be that a woman wasn't supposed to work after she got married, or at least after she had kids. Then it was women could work or not work. Now it's almost necessary and expected for most women to work. I think the Feminist movement had some unintended consequences. It's played a part in shifting our entire society and economy. Now many women don't have the choice to stay home and raise their children anymore. I am just well and truly baffled that anyone could think that feminism is to blame for some women having to work. Or for the current state of the economy. Wow. Just Wow. And like at least one PP has already pointed out, there have always been women who had to work. My great-grandmother had to work when her husband died young. And there were so few decent paying jobs available for women at that time, that my grandmother and uncle had to begin working-as kids-just to try and help their family survive.
|
|
|
Post by anxiousmom on Jul 27, 2014 1:44:03 GMT
But what choices? Not everything is about making so called bad choices. Sometimes life conspires against you and no matter what happens, staying home is not an option. And honestly? Not everyone is built to be a stay at home mom. I refuse to believe that the yard stick for parenting begins and ends with being a stay at home mom. I refuse to believe it also. That's why I'm asking and I don't recall mentioned whatever choices a woman makes as being a bad choice. Oh no! I wasn't directing my comment at you, I am sorry that it came across that way! I was commenting on the general idea that women don't have the choice to stay home any more. A lot of times those types of comments feel judgmental to me, you know?
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
May 7, 2024 5:00:23 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2014 1:46:33 GMT
I refuse to believe it also. That's why I'm asking and I don't recall mentioned whatever choices a woman makes as being a bad choice. Oh no! I wasn't directing my comment at you, I am sorry that it came across that way! I was commenting on the general idea that women don't have the choice to stay home any more. A lot of times those types of comments feel judgmental to me, you know? No worries.....I feel the same way.
|
|
Sweets McPea
Junior Member
Posts: 75
Jun 25, 2014 23:03:39 GMT
|
Post by Sweets McPea on Jul 27, 2014 2:12:50 GMT
I'm grateful for the right to vote and the equality I enjoy in this day and age. It was due to the work and courage of great women who came before us. They were true feminists. The women protesting Hobby Lobby for paying just sixteen ways of birth control instead of twenty not so much. I also think there is a cognitive dissonance between liberal women who call themselves feminists and yet excuse barbaric practices in the name of cultural diversity. Yes there are exceptions. But please explain to me why Ayaan Hirsi Ali was dis-invited from Brandeis University? I find it unfortunate that so many people choose to make the evil feminists/liberals/etc. their scapegoat for anything that's going wrong in the world. Right here on this thread, we see that feminists are apparently responsible for the fact that some women need to work outside the home, the fact that some men are selfish and infantile, and now that a Jewish-founded university caved to pressure from Islamic supporters and un-invited a planned speaker. Well, I find it unfortunate that so many strawmen can be made from your hay. I don't think feminists or liberals are evil. And I refuse to be looped in with other posters so you can sloppily make that point. But I do think militant feminists have caused a certain level of paranoia and hostility towards men. Take a gander at "rape culture" on Tumblr. Also it was the students at Brandeis that disinvited her.
|
|
AmeliaBloomer
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,842
Location: USA
Jun 26, 2014 5:01:45 GMT
|
Post by AmeliaBloomer on Jul 27, 2014 2:24:47 GMT
I also think there is a cognitive dissonance between liberal women who call themselves feminists and yet excuse barbaric practices in the name of cultural diversity. Yes there are exceptions. But please explain to me why Ayaan Hirsi Ali was dis-invited from Brandeis University? Ms. Hirsi Ali is to be admired for her tireless advocacy for women, and her continued opposition to female genital mutilation. (She is a victim herself.) Brandeis University, responding to student opposition, changed its mind about giving her an honorary degree because of her anti-Muslim rhetoric. (She has advocated for a war against all of Islam, not just radical Islam.) She has an open invitation to speak on campus. Brandeis chose not to honor her, but they did not attempt to silence her. Many, many feminists condemn FGM, honor killings, and forced marriage. There are feminist organizations that are explicitly devoted to combating FGM, usually in concert with international health organizations. American feminist organizations fought for the legislation that made FGM a federal crime here.
I'm a conservative who has a lot of affection and respect for peas on both sides of the aisle. For years I've kept quiet but I guess I've decided to speak up a little. Don't keep quiet. Let it out, sister!
|
|
|
Post by Merge on Jul 27, 2014 2:30:38 GMT
I find it unfortunate that so many people choose to make the evil feminists/liberals/etc. their scapegoat for anything that's going wrong in the world. Right here on this thread, we see that feminists are apparently responsible for the fact that some women need to work outside the home, the fact that some men are selfish and infantile, and now that a Jewish-founded university caved to pressure from Islamic supporters and un-invited a planned speaker. Well, I find it unfortunate that so many strawmen can be made from your hay. I don't think feminists or liberals are evil. And I refuse to be looped in with other posters so you can sloppily make that point. But I do think militant feminists have caused a certain level of paranoia and hostility towards men. Take a gander at "rape culture" on Tumblr. Also it was the students at Brandeis that disinvited her. I'm having a hard time following you. Did you dispute any of the specific issues I brought up with your post and I just missed it? And what do "militant feminists" and what random people post on Tumblr have to do with any of this? According to press reports, the university media office issued the announcement that Ali would not be speaking after all, following a discussion between Ali and the university president. How did the students uninvite her? Also, with all due respect, I think you misunderstand the meaning of straw man argument. The term would be more appropriately applied to your made-up liberal feminists who supposedly excuse genital mutilation. You've created a demographic that doesn't exist in order to blame it for something you don't like. Classic straw man.
|
|
|
Post by ntsf on Jul 27, 2014 2:31:24 GMT
women have always worked. they worked on the farm, they worked in the pub, they worked creating stuff...growing the food. In the 1810's and 1820's, in the textile industry, there became to be opportunities for mostly young women to spend a few years moving from the farm to work in a factory. they were able to have cash for the first time, hold an outside job other than servant, and developed a rich female society. they often came with relatives and moved between farm and factory. in the 1830's, there was a great religious "awakening" as well as the rise of the cult of the housewife. being a housewife (usually implying the support of a servant) was to only focus on the family and the home. a new "norm" was established. at the same time, in the 1840's, women were speaking up for equality, the vote, abolition of slavery, etc, and at the same time, thousand of immigrants arrived to take the factory jobs held previously by women. work was sped up and pay cut. more and more men worked in the factories.. many started leaving worn out east coast farms and moving west...increasing women's work outside the family again.
out of the great industrialization of the 1880's and 90's, once again, you had "womenhood" held up as an ideal to the american woman (not including the immigrants) and more and more women were encouraged to stay home, create a wonderful atmosphere...and this was with the assumption you were middle class and had a servant.
so staying "home" and only taking care of family and house is more of an ideal than anything that existed a long time in reality. I just read the Peabody Sisters..three sisters in the 1820's to 1850's...outstanding intellectuals in Boston...and they struggle time after time to bring in an income, tutoring, running schools, being a governess, editing magazines, doing translations, etc. money always was an issue, even after two of them married. they were rare that they were educated and had options...most women scrambled on farms to earn money for the family.
modern contraceptives also play a big role in the ability of women to work outside the home. your choices are more limited with 5, 8, 12 children.
|
|
|
Post by whipea on Jul 27, 2014 2:37:55 GMT
Yes. My mother worked in a "man's" profession from the 1950's until the mid 70's. It was so unusual the local papers would sometimes run stories about the "lady Draftsman". She never made the same pay as her male colleagues until the 70's. She was harassed, hired based on her appearance and not her skill and generally not respected as a professional. She had to work much harder then her male counterparts and was often singled out for taking a job from a man who needed to support his family. I guess our family did not need to be supported.
She stressed the importance of competing in a man's world that I had to work harder, remain professional and ethical and watch for inequitable treatment. Unfortunately she always felt women would never be treated equitably in the work force and always made comments about the males in my field were probably better paid, which fortunately in my work was not true.
|
|
|
Post by megop on Jul 27, 2014 3:48:38 GMT
Yes within dictionary definition. No within organizations, movements and activities that take the political definition too far for my taste.
|
|
|
Post by lucyg on Jul 27, 2014 5:33:51 GMT
I'm grateful for the right to vote and the equality I enjoy in this day and age. It was due to the work and courage of great women who came before us. They were true feminists. The women protesting Hobby Lobby for paying just sixteen ways of birth control instead of twenty not so much. I also think there is a cognitive dissonance between liberal women who call themselves feminists and yet excuse barbaric practices in the name of cultural diversity. Yes there are exceptions. But please explain to me why Ayaan Hirsi Ali was dis-invited from Brandeis University? Three logical problems here. One, the number of women who call themselves feminists and excuse things like genital mutilation is probably vanishingly small, if such exist at all. Please provide statistics for your claim that those who in fact oppose such practices are the "exception." Two, one does not need to be liberal to consider themselves feminist. Three, there is no relationship between this barely- or non-existent group of liberal feminists who excuse genital mutilation and honor killings and what happened at Brandeis university. The outcry against that speaker was led primarily by CAIR. I find it unfortunate that so many people choose to make the evil feminists/liberals/etc. their scapegoat for anything that's going wrong in the world. Right here on this thread, we see that feminists are apparently responsible for the fact that some women need to work outside the home, the fact that some men are selfish and infantile, and now that a Jewish-founded university caved to pressure from Islamic supporters and un-invited a planned speaker. It begins to sound like the WBC blaming natural disasters on the gays. I mean, really? Thank you, because I didn't even understand what she was talking about, for the most part.
|
|
Sweets McPea
Junior Member
Posts: 75
Jun 25, 2014 23:03:39 GMT
|
Post by Sweets McPea on Jul 28, 2014 1:38:09 GMT
Thank you Amelia. I truly hope you were being sincere because I would love that. I've always been interested in your posts and I truly enjoy a good discourse.
Hey Lucy, queen of etiquette, you do know you're being a tad rude, no? I personally would prefer someone kind over a snide pea who knows the proper way to address a thank you card.
|
|
|
Post by Linda on Jul 28, 2014 2:45:13 GMT
But what choices? Not everything is about making so called bad choices. Sometimes life conspires against you and no matter what happens, staying home is not an option. And honestly? Not everyone is built to be a stay at home mom. I refuse to believe that the yard stick for parenting begins and ends with being a stay at home mom. I refuse to believe it also. That's why I'm asking and I don't recall mentioned whatever choices a woman makes as being a bad choice. I don't think the yard stick for parenting begins and ends with being a SAHM either. I think that women (or men) should have the option of being a stay at home parent within the context of a two-parent family if they so chose - obviously in a single parent family, circumstances are different. I also think that women (and men) should have the option of being working parents. Neither choice should be looked down on by society. Economically - for all but the very poor, it's been possible to live on a single fulltime income in the past (and I'm thinking 20th century here). But as more women entered the workforce as married working parents - the costs of housing, food, etc...have increased to the point where in many areas, you need two incomes. Now part of that is increased expectations, I'll admit, but one of the big reasons that single mums struggle is because their single income isn't enough - not enough to pay the mortgage, not enough to save for retirement, not enough to pay for child care.... The median household income in the US is approx. $50,000 but the median wage in the US is a less than $27,000. If your spouse is earning in the lower 50% of wages; you are almost forced to work outside the home. I suspect that the median income of Pea-refugees is probably skewed higher than the US as a whole though - simply because scrapbooking (which is what drew most of us to the pod) requires disposable income which many in the lower income brackets simply don't have.
|
|
AmeliaBloomer
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,842
Location: USA
Jun 26, 2014 5:01:45 GMT
|
Post by AmeliaBloomer on Jul 28, 2014 13:39:25 GMT
Thank you Amelia. I truly hope you were being sincere because I would love that. I've always been interested in your posts and I truly enjoy a good discourse. Of course I'm being sincere! I'm only insincere in my real life. (P.S. I'm sending you a private message.)
|
|
grinningcat
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,663
Jun 26, 2014 13:06:35 GMT
|
Post by grinningcat on Jul 28, 2014 13:44:41 GMT
This is actually a perfect example of why I refuse to use the label. If feminism was truly about equality, there wouldn't be requirements that everyone should be one, nor would it be used to put down women. So wait. Let me clarify something. You're not a feminist in name, but you hold the tenants of feminism? Isn't that just splitting hairs? And yes, I do think everyone should be a feminist. Or rather I would require a reason why someone would not want to be a feminist and give everyone equal rights. If you're not a feminist, then what are you?
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
May 7, 2024 5:00:23 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2014 13:56:40 GMT
Yes, and I think everyone SHOULD. Feminism is about equality between men and women. Nothing more. How can anyone NOT believe that is just beyond me. I know people will bring up all sorts of crazy fringe ideas and say they don't want to call themselves feminists because they don't want to be associated with butchy, hairy, bra-burning insane women, but that's NOT what feminism is about and I think that it does a great disservice to ALL women out there when another woman puts down feminists and feminism. This is actually a perfect example of why I refuse to use the label. If feminism was truly about equality, there wouldn't be requirements that everyone should be one, nor would it be used to put down women. It's too bad you found my post offensive. That wasn't my intention. I DO believe everyone should believe in equality, but that's not a put-down if you don't feel that you are equal to men. I didn't say anything negative about you if you don't share my beliefs.
|
|
|
Post by Kelpea on Jul 28, 2014 14:30:52 GMT
I believe many women of this, and subsequent, generations, are sadly not realizing how much effort had to be put in to even effect change for women: in the workplace, voting rights, equal pay, etc. all those years ago. It would be interesting to see how many of us would have been emerging feminists during that time. I know where I would be!
|
|
|
Post by rebelyelle on Jul 28, 2014 14:52:37 GMT
I do consider myself a feminist, but the root of my feminist leanings have to do with choice. Women should be free to work or stay at home, have kids or be childless, get married or remain single, etc. etc. They should also have access to the same choices that men are entitled to, and shouldn't be hamstrung by lesser salaries for equal work, or reduced opportunities because of their gender. I will admit that in my youth I was probably slightly more "militant" and thought that I had something to prove. But I grew up. And my friends grew up. And some of those female friends made choices that I had to learn to accept BECAUSE I am a feminist. I remember when the true meaning of feminism really hit me - one of my closest friends had just had her first child. She was just a year shy of getting her PhD and she decided to terminate her studies, take a second master's instead and raise her daughter. I was horrified. But when I really sat down and thought about it, she wasn't doing anything "wrong" or anti-feminist - she was making the right choice for herself and her family, and she had every right to do so.
|
|