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Post by lucyg on Jul 28, 2014 20:47:32 GMT
Hey Lucy, queen of etiquette, you do know you're being a tad rude, no? I personally would prefer someone kind over a snide pea who knows the proper way to address a thank you card. Are you serious? I hurt your feelings by saying I didn't understand what you were talking about? After your own very accusatory, strongly-worded post? Did I hurt your feelings sometime in the past by saying you should write thank-you notes when you didn't feel the need to bother? So sorry.
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Sweets McPea
Junior Member
Posts: 75
Jun 25, 2014 23:03:39 GMT
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Post by Sweets McPea on Jul 28, 2014 23:12:32 GMT
I write thank you notes like it's my job. A well-crafted thank you on fine stationery is a masterpiece.
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Post by lucyg on Jul 29, 2014 7:54:41 GMT
I write thank you notes like it's my job. A well-crafted thank you on fine stationery is a masterpiece. I'm confused. But okay.
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grinningcat
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,663
Jun 26, 2014 13:06:35 GMT
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Post by grinningcat on Jul 29, 2014 13:22:36 GMT
I write thank you notes like it's my job. A well-crafted thank you on fine stationery is a masterpiece. I'm confused. But okay. I'm confused too. Are thank you notes a feminist thing? I'm not sure how they come into play here.
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Dalai Mama
Drama Llama
La Pea Boheme
Posts: 6,985
Jun 26, 2014 0:31:31 GMT
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Post by Dalai Mama on Jul 29, 2014 13:42:41 GMT
I'm confused too. Are thank you notes a feminist thing? I'm not sure how they come into play here. I think it has something to do with Sweets McPea calling Lucy the 'queen of etiquette' but, at the risk of being called rude as well, I'm not really following most of her posts on this thread.
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grinningcat
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,663
Jun 26, 2014 13:06:35 GMT
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Post by grinningcat on Jul 29, 2014 13:45:09 GMT
I'm confused too. Are thank you notes a feminist thing? I'm not sure how they come into play here. I think it has something to do with Sweets McPea calling Lucy the 'queen of etiquette' but, at the risk of being called rude as well, I'm not really following most of her posts on this thread. Did I miss Lucy's coronation? Being the queen of etiquette could be kind of fun... and imagine the coronation. (I still have no idea what's going on and I'm tired so I'm babbling...)
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Dalai Mama
Drama Llama
La Pea Boheme
Posts: 6,985
Jun 26, 2014 0:31:31 GMT
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Post by Dalai Mama on Jul 29, 2014 13:57:14 GMT
I think it has something to do with Sweets McPea calling Lucy the 'queen of etiquette' but, at the risk of being called rude as well, I'm not really following most of her posts on this thread. Did I miss Lucy's coronation? Being the queen of etiquette could be kind of fun... and imagine the coronation. (I still have no idea what's going on and I'm tired so I'm babbling...) IMO, if you want to get technical, crowning someone the queen of anything but not capitalizing the title is, in and of itself, poor etiquette.
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grinningcat
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,663
Jun 26, 2014 13:06:35 GMT
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Post by grinningcat on Jul 29, 2014 14:20:29 GMT
Did I miss Lucy's coronation? Being the queen of etiquette could be kind of fun... and imagine the coronation. (I still have no idea what's going on and I'm tired so I'm babbling...) IMO, if you want to get technical, crowning someone the queen of anything but not capitalizing the title is, in and of itself, poor etiquette. That is very true. Very true. Hmmmmm...
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Post by melanell on Jul 29, 2014 17:12:47 GMT
There are women slapping the "feminist" label on themselves, but then putting down other woman who don't choose to lead their lives in the "proper feminist" way. I don't need a label to believe in equality. Especially not one that can have unkind connotations. So while I may be all for equality, I don't really look to call myself anything but "Melanell".
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Post by pretzels on Jul 29, 2014 20:09:07 GMT
Absolutely, I do. I think most young women who don't consider themselves feminists are that way because they didn't have to go down the road we did. I'm 42, and I still had to deal with misogynist attitudes during my first job after college. It's not that far away (and I'm scared that the old ideals are coming back).
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Post by roundtwo on Jul 29, 2014 22:02:14 GMT
I thought for many years that I was a feminist. My parents raised me to believe that my brother, sister and I could do anything we wanted in life if we worked hard; they never made us think that there were boys things and girls things. I spent as much time with my dad in his workshop as I did with my mom at the sewing machine. Both their mom's (my grandma's) worked when they were kids so there was never any negative connotations towards working outside the home. These attitudes were never presented as anything more than just 'this is how life is". We were poor growing up and never felt like we were entitled to anything - if we wanted something, we had to work for it. If we wanted to work in a non-traditional field, great but you better not expect any special treatment. But now there is such an air of entitlement to so many of the feminist causes that I am not sure I belong with them any more. For instance, this case about the woman who went to a Muslim barber and then filed a human rights complaint when he wouldn't cut her hair because it was against his religious beliefs. I don't subscribe to his beliefs but I do feel he is entitled to them. She went there looking for a fight - there are hundreds of barbers in Toronto that she could have chosen but she deliberately went to him and then cried gender bias when he said no. This is a quote from the article that I linked above and it highlights my dilemma. I realize that this particular woman does not represent all feminists. I just wish there was a term that describes those of us who want to see everyone treated equal, not just one group. I realize that is a difficult position - as the article clearly states, at some point rights issues collide. It's a tough line to walk.
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Post by myboysnme on Jul 29, 2014 22:32:42 GMT
I am a feminist, but I have weird things like issues with breastfeeding that keep me from being the feminist I wish I was.
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katybee
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,377
Jun 25, 2014 23:25:39 GMT
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Post by katybee on Jul 29, 2014 22:34:38 GMT
I am a feminist, but I have weird things like issues with breastfeeding that keep me from being the feminist I wish I was. Oh you know we're gonna want to know more....
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Post by lucyg on Jul 29, 2014 22:39:33 GMT
I am a feminist, but I have weird things like issues with breastfeeding that keep me from being the feminist I wish I was. I think you can be a feminist and not be into breastfeeding. They are different issues.
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Post by myboysnme on Jul 29, 2014 23:24:58 GMT
I am a feminist, but I have weird things like issues with breastfeeding that keep me from being the feminist I wish I was. Oh you know we're gonna want to know more.... Well for example, intellectually I believe in women breastfeeding anywhere, anytime, baby centered nursing. Emotionally, it still bugs me when I see women breastfeed in certain settings, or breastfeed older kids, etc. If I was the feminist I want to be, I would not have an emotional response; my head and heart would be in sync.
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Post by heartcat on Jul 29, 2014 23:42:16 GMT
Yes, I do.
Although for my own life, I am fairly traditional. I was a SAHM for 14 years. I am working now but dh is the primary bread winner. I do not drive. We have a traditional distribution of duties. Dh will do many of the traditionally 'female' duties such as house cleaning, but I don't do the yard work, pump gas, maintenance of the vehicle, etc. Dh holds open doors, orders for me in restaurants, walks on the side of traffic when we are crossing the street or a parking lot, etc.
But I am a strong believer that every woman has the right to live 'her' life the way she wants to. That a woman should have the right to access everything in our society that a man can access, and to have the freedom to live her life the way a man could. I do not believe that gender makes someone less capable, less intelligent, less motivated, or 'less' in any way.
I also believe that if that choice is more traditional, like mine is, that that should be respected and is just as valid as someone being a single professional woman who is committed to her career, childless by choice, owns her own home, etc.
It is the idea of women having a 'choice' in how to live their lives that is the key to the concept of feminism to me.
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Post by rebelyelle on Jul 29, 2014 23:46:11 GMT
It strikes me as odd that feminism is one of the few labels in which some women will let the fringe define the entirety. Yes, there is a faction of feminists who give the term a foul air. But, the same can be said for Christians, Muslims, Democrats, Republicans, and so many other identities. I very seldom see someone say, for example, that while they believe in the tenets of Christianity, they won't call themselves a Christian because of how they are represented by a small minority of their shared faith/group. It does make me sad to see that a movement of such significance has been boiled down to an extreme.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Apr 26, 2024 22:36:46 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2014 23:47:09 GMT
And that is what feminism means. I am disturbed by the younger generation of women who believe that feminism is hating men, etc. It might be disturbing, but that's what many women see. Actions mean things, and in this case contradict much of what is said. I was put down by feminists because I have a civil engineering degree, but choose to raise my children by not being employed for pay. I instead volunteer in their schools and our community, and am home when they are home. They blamed my husband, tradition, religion, etc, which is hilarious because he's the one that does the laundry and much of the cooking and cleaning in our home. Our philosophy is that the 'jobs' we do in our home are what we like to do, what we are best at, and what's needed to be done at the time, and not what feminists think is right. There are always extreme views in every group but that doesn't mean that is what the majority of the group espouses. For example the Westboro church. No feminist I know would put you down for these things.
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Apr 26, 2024 22:36:46 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2014 23:47:44 GMT
It strikes me as odd that feminism is one of the few labels in which some women will let the fringe define the entirety. Yes, there is a faction of feminists who give the term a foul air. But, the same can be said for Christians, Muslims, Democrats, Republicans, and so many other identities. I very seldom see someone say, for example, that while they believe in the tenets of Christianity, they won't call themselves a Christian because of how they are represented by a small minority of their shared faith/group. It does make me sad to see that a movement of such significance has been boiled down to an extreme. Lol exactly what I was trying to say.
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Post by Merge on Jul 30, 2014 0:43:43 GMT
Oh you know we're gonna want to know more.... Well for example, intellectually I believe in women breastfeeding anywhere, anytime, baby centered nursing. Emotionally, it still bugs me when I see women breastfeed in certain settings, or breastfeed older kids, etc. If I was the feminist I want to be, I would not have an emotional response; my head and heart would be in sync. Oh, I don't think so. We can't always help our gut responses - we're all human and are products of our culture and upbringing. What matters is how we act and how we treat people. There are a fair number of women (myself included) who find abortion disturbing and would not have one, but acknowledge that other women have the right to their own opinions and to make decisions for their own bodies. That doesn't make us less feminist. You don't have to love what someone else does in order to support their right to do it.
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Post by jamieson on Jul 30, 2014 1:10:58 GMT
Absolutely.
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Post by Merge on Jul 30, 2014 13:37:55 GMT
Couldn't you insert the name of almost any group into this and it would be true? Conservatives are called RINOs if they're "soft" on some issues. Minorities are often called traitors if they agree with any Conservative party plank, much less vote Republican. Christians aren't Christian, according to some, if they are pro-choice or support gay marriage.
Why let somebody else define you? Why let the fringe groups have all the power?
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Post by jmurray on Jul 30, 2014 15:16:33 GMT
For me feminism is so much more than just equal pay, or even equal rights. It's about attaining (and maintaining) the same freedom of choices available to men, with gender never entering into the equation. It's also about power, and who has it. Right now across the globe there remains an extreme imbalance of men (often grey haired) in positions of power both economically and politically. Unless and until that imbalance is corrected I firmly believe there remains the need for feminist activism. I'd love for it not to still be required, and hope I see the day when true euality in all measurable facts is achieved - but sadly I doubt it will happen in my lifetime.
Many laws have been enacted to help move women onto a level playing field, but as was the case early on in the civil rights movement introducing a law and it being followed are 2 different matters. It won't be a level playing field until the notion of true equality is in the hearts and minds of all.
For me, while debates continue as to whether women are feminists or not, or what it really means to be one, proves we are nowhere near achieving the end goal: that being where it would be an absured question, or even where the word feminist itself becomes anachronistic - part of the world's history due to it no longer being applicable or needed.
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Post by delilahtwo on Jul 30, 2014 15:56:20 GMT
Without a doubt. My user name is that of a nineteenth century American suffragette.Convincing women to pander to men by denying feminism ("I'm no feminist, but I believe in equal blah, blah...") was a truly remarkable snow job, and just shows how submissive (or maybe malleable?) women continue to be. No other groups who have been been victims of discrimination (e.g. racial minorities) ever deny being civil rights advocates - maybe 'cause the leaders of their movements are invariably men? Civil rights or civil rights as it's name does not deny any one 'race' nor is it a contradiction just by name. I am nothing submissive or malleable yet feminists think I am denying woman victims or discrimination of women by refusing to accept all that is 'required' to be a feminist. As a school teacher, I see our boys suffering because they are expected to behave like girls in the classroom. It is especially bad when the teacher just does not get that boys and girls learn and behave differently. Boys enjoy coming to my class because I get them. Drop out rates for boys are higher for girls because schools are designed for students who can sit still and be quiet. I fear they are going to increase even more because of our need to "teach to the test". There are many other examples that I could go into, but I won't. Like I said at the beginning of my post, I am glad things have improved for women. I just feel that in many ways it has come at a cost to the men in our society. I agree. I don't think the feminist movement has caused changes in expectations for boys' behaviour in schools. It has always been expected that students sit quietly, pay attention, be respectful and learn. Not sure why those are feminine qualities. I don't agree that equality under the law for women has cost men anything. Other than the ability to own women and control them but I don't think that's a bad thing. I would love it if you would elaborate on what men have lost due to feminism.
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AmeliaBloomer
Drama Llama
Posts: 6,842
Location: USA
Jun 26, 2014 5:01:45 GMT
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Post by AmeliaBloomer on Jul 30, 2014 23:15:35 GMT
Without a doubt. My user name is that of a nineteenth century American suffragette.Convincing women to pander to men by denying feminism ("I'm no feminist, but I believe in equal blah, blah...") was a truly remarkable snow job, and just shows how submissive (or maybe malleable?) women continue to be. No other groups who have been been victims of discrimination (e.g. racial minorities) ever deny being civil rights advocates - maybe 'cause the leaders of their movements are invariably men? Civil rights or civil rights as it's name does not deny any one 'race' nor is it a contradiction just by name. I am nothing submissive or malleable yet feminists think I am denying woman victims or discrimination of women by refusing to accept all that is 'required' to be a feminist. Hi, Jacqab, Can you rephrase these two sentences, please? I'm not sure I know what you mean, but would like to understand since you're responding to my post. If you're like me, auto-correct is wreaking havoc with your writing. Thanks.
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Post by gardengoddess on Jul 30, 2014 23:54:58 GMT
What? I don't adhere to any fundamental tenets associated with being a feminist, unless it's the equal rights and pay for all. Where are these tenets written? Can I read them? I have to tell you that reading your statement I quoted, it appears to me you completely contradicted yourself, so color me confused.
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jayfab
Drama Llama
procastinating
Posts: 5,519
Jun 26, 2014 21:55:15 GMT
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Post by jayfab on Jul 31, 2014 1:04:19 GMT
For me feminism is so much more than just equal pay, or even equal rights. It's about attaining (and maintaining) the same freedom of choices available to men, with gender never entering into the equation. It's also about power, and who has it. Right now across the globe there remains an extreme imbalance of men (often grey haired) in positions of power both economically and politically. Unless and until that imbalance is corrected I firmly believe there remains the need for feminist activism. I'd love for it not to still be required, and hope I see the day when true euality in all measurable facts is achieved - but sadly I doubt it will happen in my lifetime. Many laws have been enacted to help move women onto a level playing field, but as was the case early on in the civil rights movement introducing a law and it being followed are 2 different matters. It won't be a level playing field until the notion of true equality is in the hearts and minds of all. For me, while debates continue as to whether women are feminists or not, or what it really means to be one, proves we are nowhere near achieving the end goal: that being where it would be an absured question, or even where the word feminist itself becomes anachronistic - part of the world's history due to it no longer being applicable or needed.
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Post by stefdesign on Jul 31, 2014 3:44:46 GMT
I see this a little differently. I feel that it doesn't matter how many feminists there are, there will never be a balance of men/women in economic and political power. More men want political and economic (business) power than women. You might as well ask for a balance of men/women in nursing or elementary education. People gravitate to things that are important to them, and that fits into their lifestyle and interests. And, the reason so many of these 'gray haired' men are in positions of power is simply age. They have been doing this for a very long time and are good at it. There aren't many 30 year old CEOs or Senators. But the question begs answering, why does one measure success or importance by who holds 'power'? Is that the measuring stick for determining societal progress? How about happiness? Or satisfaction? Or friendship? Or inner peace? Or good relationships? Or goodness? Or generosity? There are a million things that are of greater value to me than who holds 'power'.
I do like what you said about everyone having the same freedom of choices available, with gender never entering into the equation. I guess that's why I don't call myself a feminist. Feminist promotes gender. I promote individuality.
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Post by megop on Jul 31, 2014 4:20:08 GMT
I do like what you said about everyone having the same freedom of choices available, with gender never entering into the equation. I guess that's why I don't call myself a feminist. Feminist promotes gender. I promote individuality.
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I will never subscribe to the notion, that biological gender should never enter into the equation. I believe it absolutely should. The caveat for me is, that those differences should be embraced and respected into the bigger picture of yes, individual choices. Equal work, equal pay is easy. It's when we get into the societal value of gender is where it gets sticky in my mind.
For me this is the crux of the bigger issue as identified above..."But the question begs answering, why does one measure success or importance by who holds 'power'? Is that the measuring stick for determining societal progress? How about happiness? Or satisfaction? Or friendship? Or inner peace? Or good relationships? Or goodness? Or generosity? There are a million things that are of greater value to me than who holds 'power'."
In my mind, for a successful future, those in power, be it male or female, need to have a firm grasp and respect of the big picture, meaning, each gender brings biologically intrinsic value to overall societal success and therefore, power.
At some point, the negative connotation of feminism, needs to move beyond the definition of itself from its past.
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Post by megop on Jul 31, 2014 4:26:15 GMT
At the end of the day, the feminist movement in my opinion, has largely happened in the business realm. And thankfully so. That movement needs to stay active, but yet expand into the home realm to embrace that value as well. And by doing so, will support SAHD and WAHD. Is there a word for family support in the same realm as feminist? Because I think that is what the Millennials are embracing from what I experience.
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