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Post by dewryce on Jul 21, 2016 15:16:09 GMT
I worked my way through college at a group home. My clients were all black adult men who functioned developmentally at a toddler level. One of the guys I cared for was 250lb of solid muscle and would occasionally "go off" in a tantrum of epic proportions where he became combative. He could've seriously injured any one of us, but you know what, we were trained on how to handle that and managed to do so without ever laying a hand (much less a weapon) on our clients. If an 18 year old unarmed college girl can be trained to deescalate a potentially violent threat in the 16 hours of training we had, I expect that an adult police officer can do the same after months at a police academy. If officers are so terrified to do their jobs that their first instinct when seeing a clearly disabled adult playing with a toy is to pull out a weapon and start firing, then they are in the wrong profession. I get that there are times when officers are in very dangerous situations, but not every situation warrants the level of force that we're seeing used in recent days. If you are scared to death to do your job, then find a different one. There is NO excuse for this - NONE!I cannot imagine the fear that parents of children with Autism must be feeling today. I agree completely. Coincidentally, I was a case manager for an MHMR group home in college, and we probably had similar training. I think that if training on how to deal with disabled and mentally challenged people is not a standard for police officers, that is should be. And I am worried for our law enforcement that has to wonder, now more than ever, just how much danger they are in as they go about their daily jobs. I saw someone being pulled over yesterday and while watching the officer cautiously approach wondered if that was me, how I could make them feel safer. Be still? Keep my hands on the wheel especially as they approached?
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Deleted
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May 3, 2024 13:24:42 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2016 15:19:17 GMT
I do not in any way condone this shooting. That being said, before I read any details, it made me think. How scared must police officers be just to go about and do their jobs today? My first thought was wondering if that played a role in the situation. They are human, but if they are not capable of putting their emotions aside and using good, solid judgment when making choices about the use of deadly force, they do not belong in that job. Period.
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Post by whopea on Jul 21, 2016 15:31:43 GMT
And am I the only one who thinks that a good bit of the blame here lies with the person who called this into the police in the first place? I was wondering the same thing. The 911 call said that there was a person in the street that had a gun. Did the caller not see clearly? Make it up? I feel very sorry for all involved in this tragedy.
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Deleted
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May 3, 2024 13:24:42 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2016 15:34:03 GMT
I do not in any way condone this shooting. That being said, before I read any details, it made me think. How scared must police officers be just to go about and do their jobs today? My first thought was wondering if that played a role in the situation. Actually, the 1970's were much more scary for police officers than today in regards to police officer's deaths. The entire decade, the average number of LEO killed was over 200 a year. Since then, the only year that number went over 200 was 2001 which includes the death of officers on 9/11. In the last four years, the number are smaller than they have been in a long time. Being a police officer is dangerous work, but the men and women who decide to go into that type of work know the risks and if they don't, then they need to rethink their choice. Both of my parents and my step-mother were all in law enforcement before their respective retirements and I remember all of them saying that the most potentially dangerous situation a LEO can go into is a domestic dispute.....they have no idea how many or what kinds of weapons could possibly be hidden, whether the people involved are carrying, the mental state of the people involved.....those are the kinds of calls these officers are dealing with on a daily basis......and race isn't even a factor because domestic situations came in all shapes and forms....white, black, latino, Asian, poor, rich.....doesn't matter.
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Post by freecharlie on Jul 21, 2016 15:35:54 GMT
It is going to cost tax payers kore, but I really think partner patrol is our best bet right now. It keeps the cops safe, it gives them someone to help make decisions with, and maybe his partner would have been a calming force to not only the idiot cop in this situation, but maybe to all involved.
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schizo319
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Jun 28, 2014 0:26:58 GMT
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Post by schizo319 on Jul 21, 2016 15:41:03 GMT
And am I the only one who thinks that a good bit of the blame here lies with the person who called this into the police in the first place? Nope, and frankly, I want to HEAR the 911 call (has it been released?) because I cannot imagine any sane functioning adult mistaking a toy car for a gun. Suicidal, maybe as it appears the young man was sitting in the middle of the street, but a gun?
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Post by dewryce on Jul 21, 2016 15:42:43 GMT
I do not in any way condone this shooting. That being said, before I read any details, it made me think. How scared must police officers be just to go about and do their jobs today? My first thought was wondering if that played a role in the situation. Actually, the 1970's were much more scary for police officers than today in regards to police officer's deaths. The entire decade, the average number of LEO killed was over 200 a year. Since then, the only year that number went over 200 was 2001 which includes the death of officers on 9/11. In the last four years, the number are smaller than they have been in a long time. Being a police officer is dangerous work, but the men and women who decide to go into that type of work know the risks and if they don't, then they need to rethink their choice. Both of my parents and my step-mother were all in law enforcement before their respective retirements and I remember all of them saying that the most potentially dangerous situation a LEO can go into is a domestic dispute.....they have no idea how many or what kinds of weapons could possibly be hidden, whether the people involved are carrying, the mental state of the people involved.....those are the kinds of calls these officers are dealing with on a daily basis......and race isn't even a factor because domestic situations came in all shapes and forms....white, black, latino, Asian, poor, rich.....doesn't matter. Thank you for the perspective. I had heard that about domestic disputes, but had no idea about loss of life for them in the 70s. it's wonderful that the numbers have gone down so much and it makes me sad to think that we may now be on such an upswing. I also wonder which situation will be considered most dangerous after this all plays out. It's horrible for all involved.
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Post by secondlife on Jul 21, 2016 15:51:42 GMT
And am I the only one who thinks that a good bit of the blame here lies with the person who called this into the police in the first place? Nope, and frankly, I want to HEAR the 911 call (has it been released?) because I cannot imagine any sane functioning adult mistaking a toy car for a gun. Suicidal, maybe as it appears the young man was sitting in the middle of the street, but a gun? My understanding of working with people with severe autism is limited but this is one thing I've learned - that you can tell when a person with autism is having a meltdown as opposed to a tantrum or something else because they are not looking to see how others are responding and they are not making any effort to avoid being hurt. In a tantrum he likely would have been trying to see what reaction he was getting, if he was suicidal he probably would have been trying to hurt himself. But he was just sitting frozen. If he was sitting down in the street with his toy in hand probably he was overwhelmed and unable to handle something that had occurred, and was controlling whatever he could control by sitting down in one place and not responding to anyone. My understanding is that this is not likely an example of suicidal ideation but a person having an overwhelming and difficult moment. I have been doing a little reading about this situation today and the consensus I'm getting from people who are experts is that he was probably not a threat to himself or anyone else but was basically stuck in that meltdown moment and that is why he was sitting where he was.
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Post by femalebusiness on Jul 21, 2016 15:56:10 GMT
Not exactly a compelling argument for only trusting guns in the hands of law enforcement. And am I the only one who thinks that a good bit of the blame here lies with the person who called this into the police in the first place? No, the blame here lies directly at the feet of that cop. Makings stupid excuses for violence by cops is what is getting them killed.
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Post by leftturnonly on Jul 21, 2016 15:58:20 GMT
Actually, the 1970's were much more scary for police officers than today in regards to police officer's deaths. No young police officer was alive then. What they know is that this month, cops are being targeted and ambushed. Yes, cops need ongoing training for situations like this. They need training for combative autistic adults. They need training to recognize when a situation is under control and there is no threat. It is definitely not a job for everyone. That poor therapist and patient. So much trauma.
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Post by refugeepea on Jul 21, 2016 15:59:21 GMT
I have not read any responses to this thread, I just need to type this out. While I do NOT agree with the subject line of this post, it broke my heart when I saw that video clip. I have a son with low functioning Autism whose behavior is very much like that 23 year old man holding a toy truck. He also will run away if given a chance and he does not understand danger. This therapist was putting his life on the line and I am not saying this to be dramatic. That young man was in a bad place. His behavior would have been even more unpredictable. I cried when my son aged out of his program and we had to stop therapy. They become like family and know your child in some ways better than you do. They figure out things that work, that I would never have tried or thought. I CANNOT wrap my head around this shooting. I wonder how that poor Autistic man will cope with the trauma of what he witnessed.
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suzastampin
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Posts: 2,587
Jun 28, 2014 14:32:59 GMT
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Post by suzastampin on Jul 21, 2016 15:59:39 GMT
Just saw it on Good Morning America. This makes me so sad. I'm not sure what he could have done differently. And he still got shot. I saw it on GMA this morning. The man who was shot was laying on his back with his arms up and out. The autistic fellow was sitting at the feet of the man who was lying down. The man was explaining everything to the cops. I can see absolutely no reason he was shot!
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Deleted
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May 3, 2024 13:24:42 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2016 16:10:47 GMT
Actually, the 1970's were much more scary for police officers than today in regards to police officer's deaths. No young police officer was alive then. What they know is that this month, cops are being targeted and ambushed. There were young police officers in the 70's too that knew that our police department was targeted and bombed in May of 1970 by the Black Panthers. Race relations were NOT good back then either. They were also targeted in the 70's by mobs of people. One of my memories of my father during his patrolman days was confronting a mob group outside OUR HOME in 1969 and my mother shoving my sister, brother and I in a closet during the altercation that ended with a gazillion police cars and the neighborhood dad's coming out to defend my father.
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Post by elaine on Jul 21, 2016 16:59:09 GMT
I have not read any responses to this thread, I just need to type this out. While I do NOT agree with the subject line of this post, it broke my heart when I saw that video clip. I have a son with low functioning Autism whose behavior is very much like that 23 year old man holding a toy truck. He also will run away if given a chance and he does not understand danger. This therapist was putting his life on the line and I am not saying this to be dramatic. That young man was in a bad place. His behavior would have been even more unpredictable. I cried when my son aged out of his program and we had to stop therapy. They become like family and know your child in some ways better than you do. They figure out things that work, that I would never have tried or thought. I CANNOT wrap my head around this shooting. I wonder how that poor Autistic man will cope with the trauma of what he witnessed. (((Hugs))) My DH and I were just talking, and one of our biggest fears is that something like this will happen to our younger son who turns 15 in a couple of weeks. He has meltdowns in public and it could easily be him in that situation. My heart goes out to the therapist and the young man with autism.
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Post by *KAS* on Jul 21, 2016 17:15:53 GMT
looking at the still photos, I'm wondering if the cop got loosey-goosey with the trigger and intended to shoot the patient and ended up getting the therapist in the leg? The report states he was shot three times, but the therapist only mentioned one shot. That's what I think too - he missed his target. But I don't see any reason to shoot in the first place! He TOLD him he was autistic and that he just had a toy truck. Patient wouldn't lie down, but he wasn't doing anything threatening, nor was he armed. Completely asinine.
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Post by *KAS* on Jul 21, 2016 17:21:38 GMT
It is going to cost tax payers kore, but I really think partner patrol is our best bet right now. It keeps the cops safe, it gives them someone to help make decisions with, and maybe his partner would have been a calming force to not only the idiot cop in this situation, but maybe to all involved. There were two officers in this situation. ETA (From CNN): North Miami police said in a statement that they are investigating this week's shooting, asking potential witnesses to come forward with any photos or video they may have. The officers who arrived "attempted to negotiate with the two men on the scene." At some point, one of the officers discharged his weapon, authorities said. That officer has been placed on administrative leave, as is the standard procedure. Kinsey said he was surprised, like when a mosquito bites unexpectedly. "When he hit me, I'm like, I still got my hands in the air," he said. "I'm like, 'Sir, why did you shoot me?' " Kinsey said he asked the officer. "He said to me, 'I don't know.' "
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Post by jamiebohbamie on Jul 21, 2016 17:32:21 GMT
I've seen this story on Facebook from friends, but I haven't seen it on any major news station. I don't see why it hasn't been blowing up every channel and news outlet- it's horrifying. The man is a therapist helping a patient and then he gets shot, laying down, arms above his head. How was he a threat to anyone? How does this happen? It wasn't just one shot either- it was three!
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wellway
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Posts: 8,760
Jun 25, 2014 20:50:09 GMT
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Post by wellway on Jul 21, 2016 17:39:08 GMT
I've seen this story on Facebook from friends, but I haven't seen it on any major news station. I don't see why it hasn't been blowing up every channel and news outlet- it's horrifying. The man is a therapist helping a patient and then he gets shot, laying down, arms above his head. How was he a threat to anyone? How does this happen? It wasn't just one shot either- it was three! The story made the Six O Clock BBC evening news here in the UK and was on the Sky news website during the day.
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PLurker
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Jun 28, 2014 3:48:49 GMT
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Post by PLurker on Jul 21, 2016 17:40:33 GMT
I do not in any way condone this shooting. That being said, before I read any details, it made me think. How scared must police officers be just to go about and do their jobs today? My first thought was wondering if that played a role in the situation. Then they should choose another profession. SaveSaveI don't know if it had a role in this situation and I am not commenting about this situation. What a tragic story. But I know recent times have had some LEO rethinking their career choice. Many have been LEO for a long time. Now they are becoming targets. I'm sure some who were never really scared to go out on their job are now. It wasn't like that when many chose their profession. Quick, change profession and get another job. Not that easy.
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Post by freecharlie on Jul 21, 2016 17:45:41 GMT
It is going to cost tax payers kore, but I really think partner patrol is our best bet right now. It keeps the cops safe, it gives them someone to help make decisions with, and maybe his partner would have been a calming force to not only the idiot cop in this situation, but maybe to all involved. There were two officers in this situation. ETA (From CNN): North Miami police said in a statement that they are investigating this week's shooting, asking potential witnesses to come forward with any photos or video they may have. The officers who arrived "attempted to negotiate with the two men on the scene." At some point, one of the officers discharged his weapon, authorities said. That officer has been placed on administrative leave, as is the standard procedure. Kinsey said he was surprised, like when a mosquito bites unexpectedly. "When he hit me, I'm like, I still got my hands in the air," he said. "I'm like, 'Sir, why did you shoot me?' " Kinsey said he asked the officer. "He said to me, 'I don't know.' " damn. It sounded like a good odea.
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Post by gmcwife1 on Jul 21, 2016 17:48:42 GMT
So terribly sad
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Loydene
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Posts: 2,639
Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico
Jul 8, 2014 16:31:47 GMT
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Post by Loydene on Jul 21, 2016 17:49:50 GMT
The therapist needs to SUE THE CITY ... do not wait for "criminal" charges (which surely must be brought) but bring CIVIL CHARGES against the CITY. Until the City is paying out MILLIONS of damages and attorney fees, they won't be feeling the pain of lack of training of their licensed and armed employees.
USE the system -- SUE THE CITY!
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Post by melanell on Jul 21, 2016 18:07:14 GMT
And am I the only one who thinks that a good bit of the blame here lies with the person who called this into the police in the first place? I was wondering the same thing. The 911 call said that there was a person in the street that had a gun. Did the caller not see clearly? Make it up? I feel very sorry for all involved in this tragedy. They certainly created the situation by bringing the police officers to these two men. But they may have believed that the patient was a danger to the therapist. Particularly if they were witnesses the situation from a distance. People often call 911 because they are concerned, thinking that the police are better equipped and trained to deal with unknown situations than any given John or Jane Doe down the street. Only this time, that didn't happen. At all. And someone was shot who absolutely shouldn't have been shot. Under no circumstances AT ALL I am putting down the profession in general or the countless officers who do their jobs very well. But in this case, I just do not believe that this officer did their job properly. This should not have happened. Save
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Kerri W
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Jun 25, 2014 20:31:44 GMT
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Post by Kerri W on Jul 21, 2016 18:11:55 GMT
Then they should choose another profession. SaveSaveI don't know if it had a role in this situation and I am not commenting about this situation. What a tragic story. But I know recent times have had some LEO rethinking their career choice. Many have been LEO for a long time. Now they are becoming targets. I'm sure some who were never really scared to go out on their job are now. It wasn't like that when many chose their profession. Quick, change profession and get another job. Not that easy. No, not easy and not a quick change. HOWEVER, if you, as a police officer, are *scared* to do your job, your ass should be in your chief's office ASAP telling them so you do not unintentionally shoot somebody. It's a matter of safety for the officer and for the public and it is absolutely unacceptable to not acknowledge it and take appropriate measures. We would not accept that negligence of many other professions and we shouldn't from our officers either. SaveSave
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pridemom
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Jul 12, 2014 21:58:10 GMT
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Post by pridemom on Jul 21, 2016 18:17:24 GMT
I worked my way through college at a group home. My clients were all black adult men who functioned developmentally at a toddler level. One of the guys I cared for was 250lb of solid muscle and would occasionally "go off" in a tantrum of epic proportions where he became combative. He could've seriously injured any one of us, but you know what, we were trained on how to handle that and managed to do so without ever laying a hand (much less a weapon) on our clients. If an 18 year old unarmed college girl can be trained to deescalate a potentially violent threat in the 16 hours of training we had, I expect that an adult police officer can do the same after months at a police academy. If officers are so terrified to do their jobs that their first instinct when seeing a clearly disabled adult playing with a toy is to pull out a weapon and start firing, then they are in the wrong profession. I get that there are times when officers are in very dangerous situations, but not every situation warrants the level of force that we're seeing used in recent days. If you are scared to death to do your job, then find a different one. There is NO excuse for this - NONE! I cannot imagine the fear that parents of children with Autism must be feeling today. Exactly! One two day training in Crisis Prevention and Intervention takes care of that.
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Post by tmarschall on Jul 21, 2016 18:19:43 GMT
Then they should choose another profession. SaveSaveI don't know if it had a role in this situation and I am not commenting about this situation. What a tragic story. But I know recent times have had some LEO rethinking their career choice. Many have been LEO for a long time. Now they are becoming targets. I'm sure some who were never really scared to go out on their job are now. It wasn't like that when many chose their profession. Quick, change profession and get another job. Not that easy. Not easy, true. But if a doctor was trying to perform her or his duties and was impaired...due to fear, alcoholism, incompetence...would we excuse or stay silent about their behavior? While people were hurt or killed? No. We'd call for their license and expect them to find another way to support themselves. I'm a professional. Social workers or professors that are incompetent hurt my reputation and the reputation of my professions. I don't want to cover them up...I want them exposed and removed. Remediated or rehabilitated, if possible, but covering up a problem doesn't make it go away.
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pridemom
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Jul 12, 2014 21:58:10 GMT
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Post by pridemom on Jul 21, 2016 18:20:05 GMT
"Attempted to negotiate"? What does that mean. I want to know how that played out, because it would not have ended this way if the everyone is telling the truth.
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PLurker
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Post by PLurker on Jul 21, 2016 18:35:11 GMT
Kerri W tmarschall I agree with you both. I just think it's not so black and white. As in most things "gray". There are always a facts that added or omitted from most stories that change opinions in an instant. I could see officers not even realizing how affected they are by recent happenings until an experience that brings it to life. Human nature often makes us think we can work through our doubts and fears. "I can do this. I'll be okay." Just like other professions, being deemed "incompetent" usually doesn't occur until something negative happens. Hopefully not life ending or extreme as in this case. Just tragic all around.
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Post by gmcwife1 on Jul 21, 2016 18:49:15 GMT
I don't know if it had a role in this situation and I am not commenting about this situation. What a tragic story. But I know recent times have had some LEO rethinking their career choice. Many have been LEO for a long time. Now they are becoming targets. I'm sure some who were never really scared to go out on their job are now. It wasn't like that when many chose their profession. Quick, change profession and get another job. Not that easy. Not easy, true. But if a doctor was trying to perform her or his duties and was impaired...due to fear, alcoholism, incompetence...would we excuse or stay silent about their behavior? While people were hurt or killed? No. We'd call for their license and expect them to find another way to support themselves. I'm a professional. Social workers or professors that are incompetent hurt my reputation and the reputation of my professions. I don't want to cover them up...I want them exposed and removed. Remediated or rehabilitated, if possible, but covering up a problem doesn't make it go away. Sadly the medical profession does have the same struggles removing bad doctors. We see it on the news often for the same reason, their license is not revoked immediately. We have too many doctors that have sexually abused patients, killed patients with incompetence, over medicated patients, etc that still practice The professional associations, licensing boards, unions need to take quicker action removing people that are unfit for duty.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2016 18:59:30 GMT
Not exactly a compelling argument for only trusting guns in the hands of law enforcement. And am I the only one who thinks that a good bit of the blame here lies with the person who called this into the police in the first place? I don't know if the caller deserves any blame, but it does go to show that it wasn't as obvious in the moment, that it was a toy truck, as it is to leisurely sit at your computer and take the time to contemplate what you see in a video.
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