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Post by Zee on Mar 24, 2017 1:13:36 GMT
Obviously we can't prevent all crimes. But this could have been prevented. I'm NOT against LEGAL immigration. Both of my grandparents came through Ellis Island. The legal way. Please tell me the legal way for Mexican workers to come here to work. Because I know we need them and want them here to work, but apparently we don't want to let them come legally. EXACTLY!!! I'm so tired of hearing about how immigrants should just come here the legal way. If it was that easy, don't you think they would? Most Mexicans cannot just "come here legally". Should they come here illegally? No, but I don't see a lot of these border state white people complaining about cheap manual labor and produce and demanding to pay more to have only legal citizens fix their roofs and driveways and pick their organic veggies. It's maddening.
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pudgygroundhog
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,643
Location: The Grand Canyon
Jun 25, 2014 20:18:39 GMT
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Post by pudgygroundhog on Mar 24, 2017 1:18:45 GMT
Please tell me the legal way for Mexican workers to come here to work. Because I know we need them and want them here to work, but apparently we don't want to let them come legally. EXACTLY!!! I'm so tired of hearing about how immigrants should just come here the legal way. If it was that easy, don't you think they would? Most Mexicans cannot just "come here legally". Should they come here illegally? No, but I don't see a lot of these border state white people complaining about cheap manual labor and produce and demanding to pay more to have only legal citizens fix their roofs and driveways and pick their organic veggies. It's maddening. Yes and yes to both of you. I find it very frustrating too.
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Post by friendly on Mar 24, 2017 1:25:22 GMT
Oh brother. I can't even figure out what that means. Think whatever you'd like, whatever that is. Oh brother. I'll break it down for you. YOU said (bold mine): " I think a lot of people in this country are against both legal and illegal immigration. I'm not ignoring or confusing anything." And then I said (bold mine) " Think whatever you want" To which I said, twice at that point in this thread, that I'm referring to people here, on 2PEAS, interchanging or choosing to ignore people when they say they take issue with ILLEGAL immigration and they're not ANTI-immigration. When representatives like GOP congressman Steve King goes on record saying "We're not going to restore our civilization with someone else's babies," his stance is quite clear, and I take him at his word. No need for spin at all. Again, I'm talking about people here on 2Peas. Does it not matter what people write here? Because some douche--Steve King in your example, talks that crap, it doesn't mean that every single republican/conservative that take issue with illegal immigration are anti-immigration. Holy cow. I guess you really want to win an argument today. I didn't even read all of it but I'll say it since you need it SO badly: you're right. Happy now?
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rodeomom
Pearl Clutcher
Refupee # 380 "I don't have to run fast, I just have to run faster than you."
Posts: 3,661
Location: Chickasaw Nation, Oklahoma
Jun 25, 2014 23:34:38 GMT
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Post by rodeomom on Mar 24, 2017 1:33:53 GMT
And if James Jackson weren't here, the murder of an innocent American in NYC wouldn't have happened. What would you suggest we have done to prevent his killing spree which happened around the same time? link
Maybe we should deport all Army Vets? (sarcasm from a military wife, in case it wasn't obvious) Obviously we can't prevent all crimes. But this could have been prevented. I'm NOT against LEGAL immigration. Both of my grandparents came through Ellis Island. The legal way. Do you know what the "legal way" was back then? Some got free passage but had to work 2 to 7 years. One of my ancestors stole some wool so he could be sent here from England.
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Post by georgiabeachbum on Mar 24, 2017 1:57:56 GMT
Obviously we can't prevent all crimes. But this could have been prevented. I'm NOT against LEGAL immigration. Both of my grandparents came through Ellis Island. The legal way. Do you know what the "legal way" was back then? Some got free passage but had to work 2 to 7 years. One of my ancestors stole some wool so he could be sent here from England. My great grandfather came here legally (paid for his ticket. I have his steerage papers) and worked for two years. He then paid for my great grandmother and 4 sons (one was my grandfather) to sail here. They came from Macedonia.
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Post by *leslie* on Mar 24, 2017 2:02:20 GMT
Oh brother. I'll break it down for you. YOU said (bold mine): " I think a lot of people in this country are against both legal and illegal immigration. I'm not ignoring or confusing anything." And then I said (bold mine) " Think whatever you want" To which I said, twice at that point in this thread, that I'm referring to people here, on 2PEAS, interchanging or choosing to ignore people when they say they take issue with ILLEGAL immigration and they're not ANTI-immigration. Again, I'm talking about people here on 2Peas. Does it not matter what people write here? Because some douche--Steve King in your example, talks that crap, it doesn't mean that every single republican/conservative that take issue with illegal immigration are anti-immigration. Holy cow. I guess you really want to win an argument today. I didn't even read all of it but I'll say it since you need it SO badly: you're right. Happy now? Lol
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Post by peace on Mar 24, 2017 2:13:31 GMT
Do you know what the "legal way" was back then? Some got free passage but had to work 2 to 7 years. One of my ancestors stole some wool so he could be sent here from England. My great grandfather came here legally (paid for his ticket. I have his steerage papers) and worked for two years. He then paid for my great grandmother and 4 sons (one was my grandfather) to sail here. They came from Macedonia. You have NO idea what other people go through- You are talking about your ancestors that went through Ellis Island- mine did, too. TIMES HAVE CHANGED. They don't have the same choices/options. THINK about leaving everything you have and know to come to a new country because things are going to be better. That explains how BAD it must be for them. They are giving up everything in hopes of something better. They are trying to come and make a better life. The percentage of people that come and commit crimes is low. The saddest thing for me is that the principles that founded are country have so fundamentally changed. The people that want no one else to come here (wink wink - they claim "illegally"- they just want them to come if they promise to conform and do what we want -as we do) You are just a privileged white person that DOESN'T get it. You are in your ivory tower casting judgement. How wonderful that you are a descendant of immigrants. What does that mean? Really? I just can't understand nor do I want to. It is hate. It is ugly. And you are the third pea from Georgia going on my ignore.
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Post by bc2ca on Mar 24, 2017 2:36:20 GMT
Obviously we can't prevent all crimes. But this could have been prevented. I'm NOT against LEGAL immigration. Both of my grandparents came through Ellis Island. The legal way. Please tell me the legal way for Mexican workers to come here to work. Because I know we need them and want them here to work, but apparently we don't want to let them come legally. Throw in American children born to undocumented workers and the mess gets uglier and more complex to unravel. Thanks for sharing the letter from your Superintendent, missfrenchjessica. It is unfortunate that they have to make such a statement, but great to see that kind of leadership. SaveSave
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lizacreates
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,856
Aug 29, 2015 2:39:19 GMT
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Post by lizacreates on Mar 24, 2017 2:39:40 GMT
Do you know what the "legal way" was back then? Some got free passage but had to work 2 to 7 years. One of my ancestors stole some wool so he could be sent here from England. My great grandfather came here legally (paid for his ticket. I have his steerage papers) and worked for two years. He then paid for my great grandmother and 4 sons (one was my grandfather) to sail here. They came from Macedonia. Yes, but that changed in 1924. Prior to that, there was no such thing as illegal immigration. Basically anyone who arrived was welcome, no visas were required, no interviews at US consulates abroad. People boarded a boat, came here and built their new lives. Those Ellis Island days are long, long gone. Currently, the quota for low-skilled workers who can be sponsored by employers is limited to 5,000 visas per year. This is why it’s preferable for someone desperate to make a living to enter the US illegally and get a job at a farm, a restaurant, or wherever US citizens reject those jobs (and there are many, many jobs Americans refuse to do, whether we want to admit it or not). The answer, really, is to sell them visas. It’s revenue for the country and those individuals would rather pay a reasonable fee to live and work here, free from fear and deportation. Legalize their presence in the US as long as they hold jobs and are not a burden to society. It doesn’t have to be a permanent visa; it can be a visa that requires renewal yearly as long as the applicant can prove continued employment. Our employment immigration policies are dysfunctional because our measly quotas do not begin to satisfy the needs of a nation that requires low-skilled labor, and at the same time we create a mess because their presence is marginalized by illegality despite their critical role in our economy. Unless we reform those immigration policies we merely perpetuate the problem from one generation to the next.
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Post by freecharlie on Mar 24, 2017 2:48:49 GMT
Before we go and divide ourselves further, let's remember that everybody comes at situations and issues from their own perspective based on their experiences.
SOME people who are anti immigration and /or anti illegal immigration have their beliefs based on only what they read or hear on tv. They have never met an immigrant, legally here or not. They have never seen the workers that do that hard labor or the children work hard in school.
I live in a rural area that is very conservative. Many around here bitch about the drain on the society that the Mexicans and others from Latin America are, while in the same breathe praising the farmers. I drive by the fields on my way to work and on my way to any town. I see these people in the field fully clothed with a wide brim hat in heat that makes me love my airconditioner that much more. And they are out there weeding the fields or harvesting potatoes or onions. They are working hard, for probably little pay, doing a job that most the people around here don't want. Now, some are here legally, but many are not. There are people who work in the dairies around here who are probably illegal as well as some that are here legally. They milk, clean, take care of the animals and they do it for low wages or even lower wages and a roof over their head. Take those people away and the price of food will jump. You will be paying $7 per gallon for milk or something.
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Post by freecharlie on Mar 24, 2017 2:52:34 GMT
In addition, I see the students here in school working harder than their peers because English is not their first language. Some of them don't find out they are here illegally until they are in high school. They have gone through our school system and are ready to be members of our society with all that it entails and instead of letting them, we put up roadblocks. People who could have professional jobs and maybe advance our society are relegated to the stereotypical tasks for uneducated Hispanics.
I've heard stories of where some of these children came from and if I had the courage, I would flee and illegally cross our borders as well. There isn't much I would do for my family.
And with all of it, let's not forget these are humans beings, not statistics or props to be used
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Post by elaine on Mar 24, 2017 3:05:12 GMT
Do you know what the "legal way" was back then? Some got free passage but had to work 2 to 7 years. One of my ancestors stole some wool so he could be sent here from England. My great grandfather came here legally (paid for his ticket. I have his steerage papers) and worked for two years. He then paid for my great grandmother and 4 sons (one was my grandfather) to sail here. They came from Macedonia. My great grandparents came here from Austria-Hungary legally. What does that have to do with the current situation being discussed? Most Army Vets don't go on a killing spree to hunt African Americans, so should we deport everyone who separates from the Army because one person meeting those demographics does? I mean, we could have prevented that murder if we deported or imprisoned him ahead of time, right?
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Mar 24, 2017 3:19:07 GMT
Why do so many continue to say people are anti-immigration when it is repeatedly said the issue is illegal immigration. It continues to be ignored over, and over, and over. The continued discrimination against anyone who is not white/look "American" shows that it isn't just about illegal immigration for many people. I'm not a spreadsheet maker, but what I have noticed on Facebook or irl is that people will say they are only against illegal immigration, but at other times they make comments that are derogatory towards label immigrants as well. So it is hard to know if they truly do distinguish between legal and illegal immigration in their words And actions.
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Mar 24, 2017 3:39:30 GMT
Do you know what the "legal way" was back then? Some got free passage but had to work 2 to 7 years. One of my ancestors stole some wool so he could be sent here from England. My great grandfather came here legally (paid for his ticket. I have his steerage papers) and worked for two years. He then paid for my great grandmother and 4 sons (one was my grandfather) to sail here. They came from Macedonia. How long did they have to wait to come? What were the circumstances in Macedonia before they left? What were the reasons they came here? Were they legal citizens? Many people who are here illegally actually overstayed their visas/visits. Like others have said, The process has changed drastically, and no longer applies, particularly for those from Mexico or central/South America. I can't imagine how bad things would have to be for me to decide to leave my country, leave my family, risk my life to go to another country. All while having the stress of being illegal. But yet to them it is worth it to get a job and have hope for a better life. People like to think of illegal immigrants (and often times legal immigrants as well, especially refugees) as horrible people who are just criminals and leeches. If people could have some empathy and try to understand where they are coming from, it would go a long way. As it is, situations like this rape ads used to perpetuate fear and bias towards. Group of people, which is not accurate or fair.
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Post by seikashaven on Mar 24, 2017 3:41:23 GMT
The reason this criminal's immigration status doesn't matter in this context is because it's the WRONG conversation.
Just look above my post. This entire page is focused on defining immigration issues and not a single post discusses the rape.
The 14 year old victim deserves enough respect and empathy to be the focus of her own story. Check your political agendas at the door.
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Post by friendly on Mar 24, 2017 16:39:16 GMT
My great grandfather came here legally (paid for his ticket. I have his steerage papers) and worked for two years. He then paid for my great grandmother and 4 sons (one was my grandfather) to sail here. They came from Macedonia. You have NO idea what other people go through- You are talking about your ancestors that went through Ellis Island- mine did, too. TIMES HAVE CHANGED. They don't have the same choices/options. THINK about leaving everything you have and know to come to a new country because things are going to be better. That explains how BAD it must be for them. They are giving up everything in hopes of something better. They are trying to come and make a better life. The percentage of people that come and commit crimes is low. The saddest thing for me is that the principles that founded are country have so fundamentally changed. The people that want no one else to come here (wink wink - they claim "illegally"- they just want them to come if they promise to conform and do what we want -as we do) You are just a privileged white person that DOESN'T get it. You are in your ivory tower casting judgement. How wonderful that you are a descendant of immigrants. What does that mean? Really? I just can't understand nor do I want to. It is hate. It is ugly. And you are the third pea from Georgia going on my ignore.
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Post by friendly on Mar 24, 2017 16:51:36 GMT
From wikipedia: No immigration papers needed before 1918"A false etymology or backronym sometimes promulgated is that "wop" is an acronym that comes from "without passport"[8][9] or "without papers",[9][10] implying that Italian immigrants entered the U.S. as undocumented or illegal immigrants. The term has nothing to do with immigration documents, as these were not required by U.S. immigration officers until 1918, after the slur had already come into use in the United States.[9] Further, turning acronyms into words did not become common practice until after World War II, with the practice accelerating with the growth of the United States space program and the Cold War.[8]" From this paragraph you can see that people could just come to the US and be admitted without any fees and documentation as is required now. Immigrants from South America and Mexico (and anywhere else) have a much harder time coming to this country. My ancestors came here before 1918 and were just admitted. No paperwork, no fees required.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2017 20:29:22 GMT
Because they didn't rape her because they are immigrants. They raped her because they are violent assholes. Exactly. I think it's disgusting that some folks are using this rape as a tool to further their agenda. SaveAnd yet you didn't mind using the case of sex with a child as a tool to further the agenda to demonize Republicans. LINK
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Post by bc2ca on Mar 24, 2017 22:58:08 GMT
Exactly. I think it's disgusting that some folks are using this rape as a tool to further their agenda. SaveAnd yet you didn't mind using the case of sex with a child as a tool to further the agenda to demonize Republicans. LINKIf the person charged with three felony counts of prostitution, including prostitution with a minor, is a Republican who ran on a "family values" platform and routinely voted for measures to target the LGBT community, then I think we don't have an apples-to-apples comparison. SaveSave
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Post by OntarioScrapper on Mar 24, 2017 23:35:18 GMT
Because they didn't rape her because they are immigrants. They raped her because they are violent assholes. We know for a fact that at least one of them should not have even been in the country. He was detained at the TX border and released. They may be violent assholes but the girl that was raped would NOT have been raped by this one individual had he not been in our country or at her school No, he would've raped someone else instead.
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Deleted
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May 20, 2024 15:08:32 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2017 0:38:52 GMT
And yet you didn't mind using the case of sex with a child as a tool to further the agenda to demonize Republicans. LINKIf the person charged with three felony counts of prostitution, including prostitution with a minor, is a Republican who ran on a "family values" platform and routinely voted for measures to target the LGBT community, then I think we don't have an apples-to-apples comparison. SaveSaveThere's nothing you can say to make it okay to use the case of sex with a child as a tool to further the agenda to demonize Republicans. If it's not okay for one side to do it, it's not okay for either side.
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Post by freecharlie on Mar 25, 2017 0:45:24 GMT
If the person charged with three felony counts of prostitution, including prostitution with a minor, is a Republican who ran on a "family values" platform and routinely voted for measures to target the LGBT community, then I think we don't have an apples-to-apples comparison. SaveSaveThere's nothing you can say to make it okay to use the case of sex with a child as a tool to further the agenda to demonize Republicans. If it's not okay for one side to do it, it's not okay for either side. I agree. I do think that if you want to use it to demonize THIS particular person, go for it. But using it to try and knock a whole party is over the top.
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Mar 25, 2017 1:48:16 GMT
Quite frankly, republicans have been creating a great big ckusterfuck of demonizing themselves--no help needed from Democrats.
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Post by bc2ca on Mar 25, 2017 1:54:19 GMT
There's nothing you can say to make it okay to use the case of sex with a child as a tool to further the agenda to demonize Republicans. If it's not okay for one side to do it, it's not okay for either side. I agree. I do think that if you want to use it to demonize THIS particular person, go for it. But using it to try and knock a whole party is over the top. I didn't see demonizing of the party, just those in the party that claim a high moral ground and strong family values, including supporting legislation that hurts those they consider immoral, while behaving in a manner that is the opposite of what they claim to represent. SaveSave
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Mar 25, 2017 2:01:57 GMT
Young girl gets raped by illegal immigrant.
Issue is: young girl is raped.
Sub issue: rapist is an illegal immigrant.
Wrong issue: certain groups of people are using the rape BY AN ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT to further their justifications for building a wall and deportation of immigrants (and not just offenders)
He raped her, not because he was an illegal immigrant, but because he is a horrible violent person.
******************************
Congressman rapes young boy.
Issue: congressman raped young boy--Not because he is a congressman but because he is a predator and a hypocritical one at best.
Congressman is a republican who has been verbal about morals and righteousness, promoting a platform and judging those who fit into his ideal. So it is fit to call him out on that irony and hypocrisy.
No one is demonizing the republican congressman, his own actions are what put him where he is--
The difference between the two and the demonizing claim from above?
The young girl is the victim and her absolute tragedy and horrific experience should not be used to aid in advancing the republican platform.
The rapist congressman is NOT a victim and deserves to be hung out there on his bullshit moral righteousness. (Not parading the young boys rape, just the conflicting actions of the congressman)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2017 19:02:28 GMT
There's nothing you can say to make it okay to use the case of sex with a child as a tool to further the agenda to demonize Republicans. If it's not okay for one side to do it, it's not okay for either side. I agree. I do think that if you want to use it to demonize THIS particular person, go for it. But using it to try and knock a whole party is over the top. Thank you for saying so.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2017 19:06:03 GMT
I agree. I do think that if you want to use it to demonize THIS particular person, go for it. But using it to try and knock a whole party is over the top. I didn't see demonizing of the party, just those in the party that claim a high moral ground and strong family values, including supporting legislation that hurts those they consider immoral, while behaving in a manner that is the opposite of what they claim to represent. SaveSaveDue to the repeated use of "the Repubublicans", "them", "they" etc., I disagree.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2017 19:14:30 GMT
Young girl gets raped by illegal immigrant. Issue is: young girl is raped. Sub issue: rapist is an illegal immigrant. Wrong issue: certain groups of people are using the rape BY AN ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT to further their justifications for building a wall and deportation of immigrants (and not just offenders) He raped her, not because he was an illegal immigrant, but because he is a horrible violent person. ****************************** Congressman rapes young boy. Issue: congressman raped young boy--Not because he is a congressman but because he is a predator and a hypocritical one at best. Congressman is a republican who has been verbal about morals and righteousness, promoting a platform and judging those who fit into his ideal. So it is fit to call him out on that irony and hypocrisy. No one is demonizing the republican congressman, his own actions are what put him where he is-- The difference between the two and the demonizing claim from above?
The young girl is the victim and her absolute tragedy and horrific experience should not be used to aid in advancing the republican platform.
The rapist congressman is NOT a victim and deserves to be hung out there on his bullshit moral righteousness. (Not parading the young boys rape, just the conflicting actions of the congressman)All you did is change the focus on WHO you're making the point about and in the process created a textbook case of semantics. You in no way proved a difference. Both sides were using a case of a victim to further an agenda. Your word salad doesn't change that. As I said, there's nothing you can say to make it okay to use the case of sex with a child as a tool to further the agenda to demonize Republicans. If it's not okay for one side to do it, it's not okay for either side.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2017 20:19:08 GMT
linkThis is the real story about rape that we as a country should be focused on. From ABC News "University of Texas survey: 1 in 7 Female Students Raped." From the article " Nationwide about 1 in 4 College Women reported unwanted sexual contact in 2015 survey by the Association of American Universities". No woman should ever be subject to unwanted sexual contact and/or rape. It doesn't matter who the aggressor is. IMO the intent of this thread was to specifically vilify undocumented men and to justify trump's plan to deport all undocumented folks regardless if they committed a crime or not. It also suggests that this rape was more heinous then other rapes. trump started this dangerous and disingenuous trend with the Kate Steinle murder in San Francisco when he went after sanctuary cities. There is no question we need to find a way to handle undocumented folks. But this is not the way to do it. And whether it was intended to do this or not, singling out crimes by undocumented folks marginalizes the victims of crimes committed by those others than undocumented folks. When in fact they are all equally terrible. At least that is the way I see it.
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Mar 25, 2017 22:46:54 GMT
Young girl gets raped by illegal immigrant. Issue is: young girl is raped. Sub issue: rapist is an illegal immigrant. Wrong issue: certain groups of people are using the rape BY AN ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT to further their justifications for building a wall and deportation of immigrants (and not just offenders) He raped her, not because he was an illegal immigrant, but because he is a horrible violent person. ****************************** Congressman rapes young boy. Issue: congressman raped young boy--Not because he is a congressman but because he is a predator and a hypocritical one at best. Congressman is a republican who has been verbal about morals and righteousness, promoting a platform and judging those who fit into his ideal. So it is fit to call him out on that irony and hypocrisy. No one is demonizing the republican congressman, his own actions are what put him where he is-- The difference between the two and the demonizing claim from above?
The young girl is the victim and her absolute tragedy and horrific experience should not be used to aid in advancing the republican platform.
The rapist congressman is NOT a victim and deserves to be hung out there on his bullshit moral righteousness. (Not parading the young boys rape, just the conflicting actions of the congressman)All you did is change the focus on WHO you're making the point about and in the process created a textbook case of semantics. You in no way proved a difference. Both sides were using a case of a victim to further an agenda. Your word salad doesn't change that. As I said, there's nothing you can say to make it okay to use the case of sex with a child as a tool to further the agenda to demonize Republicans. If it's not okay for one side to do it, it's not okay for either side. Whatever. Defend/support/explain away all you want with the rapists. Because that is what you are doing by your little games--justifying. {{{Took out an obvious typo on my part}}}. My point was that they are not the same, they ARE different you're choosing to reading more into what I wrote. Not once did I ever say it was okay to use those child's rapes as a tool for anything, so you can just shut the fuck up about that right now--you're disgusting to even suggest it. I solely and clearly stated that the asshole congressman deserved to be hung out on his moral righteousness--and I specifically noted by NOT parading that young boys rape. So learn to fucking read what is posted, and stop trying to impose your repeat, parroted responses of what you think you read and your preconceived notions. You defend/excuse away the rapist republican by claiming How about republicans should not be using the rapes as a way to further their agendas, policies, game plans. EDITED ABOVE, clearly a typo on my part.
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