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Post by Darcy Collins on Sept 13, 2017 18:07:57 GMT
I was curious about MerryMom comment about financial aid being based only on custodial parent and was looking into it as it wasn't consistent with my history (albeit ancient history). Counting custodial parent is a federal/state money requirement regarding FAFSA. Many private colleges require a supplemental form with information from both sets of parents and their aid is based on the expectation that both parents contribute. This is a list of colleges that use the CSS and whether the non-custodial parent information is counted in financial aid - in case anyone is interested: profileonline.collegeboard.org/prf/PXRemotePartInstitutionServlet/PXRemotePartInstitutionServlet.srv?excmpid=MTG336-ST-1-a2oMy alma mater is listed which would explain my different experience.
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Post by #notLauren on Sept 13, 2017 18:40:35 GMT
Darcy, many of the schools on that list look like private colleges and universities. That may explain the difference.
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Post by Darcy Collins on Sept 13, 2017 19:22:39 GMT
Darcy, many of the schools on that list look like private colleges and universities. That may explain the difference. Yes - it was in my post above - the CSS is used by private colleges to determine their financial aid packages. FAFSA is for federal/state money. It's been many, many years - but other than a few federal loans, the vast majority of my financial aid was provided by the college. I posted the link for any divorced peas who might want to consider whether their spouse is willing to provide financial information and support to their child - it could have a dramatic swing in the financial aid package offered by the private school - and if you know the spouse isn't willing , I'd look at those on the list that don't require the non-custodial parent information at all.
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Post by myboysnme on Sept 13, 2017 19:27:15 GMT
College is not optional for my kids, so yes, I do think college should be considered in a divorce decree. I said that too and then my son just refused to go. so much for that.
Good news is he found out that he couldn't support himself so at age 26 he is a college senior.
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twinsmomfla99
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,981
Jun 26, 2014 13:42:47 GMT
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Post by twinsmomfla99 on Sept 13, 2017 19:31:03 GMT
College is not optional for my kids, so yes, I do think college should be considered in a divorce decree. Would you actually insist that they attend if they did not want to? Or if they showed no real aptitude for the rigors of a four-year school?
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momto4kiddos
Drama Llama
Posts: 5,151
Jun 26, 2014 11:45:15 GMT
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Post by momto4kiddos on Sept 13, 2017 19:36:55 GMT
My cousin's ex took him back to court when their oldest was about to go to college. Judge ordered they each pay 1/3 - she, he and kid each had to pay a portion. I thought it was pretty good way to handle it.
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Post by #notLauren on Sept 13, 2017 19:50:12 GMT
If the cut off age for child support is 18, how can a court order a parent to pay for college (or anything for the kid) once the child reaches that age?
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Post by Darcy Collins on Sept 13, 2017 20:26:32 GMT
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Post by ktdoesntscrap on Sept 13, 2017 21:08:23 GMT
Why not? How old are they now? What happens if they decide a year in that they do not want to continue? Because we know that it's tough to do much without a college degree. My kids have been told since day one unless they have a really good paying job or are independently wealthy at the age of 18, they will be going to college. If they decide in a year they don't want to continue? Unless there's a physical or emotional reason for them not to be on their own and working, they'll be on their own. I'm 3 out of 4 so far and don't see number 4 choosing to do something else, so for us, college would be considered in a divorce decree. May work differently for other families but that's what I would expect. And I know my husband wouldn't balk at paying for college. We've been saving for their college educations for 25 years - it's hard for me to picture him changing his tune now. I'm not saying your husband would balk.. I would have thought mine wouldn't either. We had a plan we invested in a rental property that would have been paid off when she was ready for college and we would be able to sell or use the rental income for college. But when you get divorced. People change especially around money. My ex and I were on the same page about paying for an education, clearly, he still believes in it because his kids that live with him go to private schools. But he fights me like a dog to pay a penny towards our DD's education. He acts like when he pays for something for our daughter he is doing me a favor and "giving" me money. I am speaking of my personal experience but also the experience of many of my friends. Something about a divorce causes people to lose their perspective on kids and money.
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peabay
Prolific Pea
Posts: 9,602
Jun 25, 2014 19:50:41 GMT
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Post by peabay on Sept 13, 2017 21:26:11 GMT
College is not optional for my kids, so yes, I do think college should be considered in a divorce decree. Would you actually insist that they attend if they did not want to? Or if they showed no real aptitude for the rigors of a four-year school? Yes. I would insist they attend some form of higher education. I get that not everyone parents like I do or has the same expectations of their children. We live in a very competitive area of the northeast. 95% of the kids in our high school go to 4 year colleges. It has always been an expectation in my house that my kids would go to college. It's what they work towards. Everyone in my family has a college education; everyone in my husband's family has a college education. I'm not sure how else to explain it other than college isn't optional, unless there is a physical or emotional barrier to it.
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peabay
Prolific Pea
Posts: 9,602
Jun 25, 2014 19:50:41 GMT
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Post by peabay on Sept 13, 2017 21:26:57 GMT
College is not optional for my kids, so yes, I do think college should be considered in a divorce decree. I said that too and then my son just refused to go. so much for that.
Good news is he found out that he couldn't support himself so at age 26 he is a college senior.
That is good news!
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Post by hop2 on Sept 13, 2017 21:43:31 GMT
Imho that depends on the finances of the parents. If you have the finances to pay then yes it should be, because they aren't going to get ANY help at all due to the parents finances- parental income can even prevent a kid from getting an on campus job and work for their money. I happened to me and it also happened to my DD. In fact the office that wanted her to work sought her out because she had a specific skill they really need and they can't hire her due to our income ( H's income to be exact ) So they are forced to hire a less qualified candidate.
If people are just barely getting by and can't then no it should not. In fact I think that if it's not required to help pay for college in the divorce decree then I think the children should be emancipated from the parents or whichever legal severance is required that the child does not require a FAFSA from the parents. And the legal severance should be at the parents expense. I've seen cases where one parent wants to screw over their ex so they refuse to fill out the FAFSA for thier child to get a scholarship. Nothing like fucking your child over goid because you want to be an asshole to your ex. I've seen 2 parents do this and the kids can not receive the scholarship without the FAFSA even if it is not a need based scholarship. So your not helping your kid and they are enterprising enough to work hard and qualify for a scholarship and your going to refuse to fill out an online thing so they can provide for themselves??? Pretty low in my opinion. So I think that if parents are not in the hook for the money then they need to pay for whichever Legal severance is required so their kids can function in their own and not get caught in stupidity.
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Post by hop2 on Sept 13, 2017 21:48:40 GMT
If the cut off age for child support is 18, how can a court order a parent to pay for college (or anything for the kid) once the child reaches that age? Because parents can really screw thier kids over simply by refusing to fill out the FAFSA. If they are on the hook for money then they have an incentive to fill out all required forms do their children can take advantage of scholarships since it would lessen their portion. I'm tired of seeing stupid parents screwing their kids over to be childish. Courts need to protect the young adults from spiteful stupid people. If they are in the hook for any portion of the bill then they have an incentive to co operate with the young adult in anything that helps Lower the bill.
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twinsmomfla99
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,981
Jun 26, 2014 13:42:47 GMT
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Post by twinsmomfla99 on Sept 13, 2017 22:05:01 GMT
Imho that depends on the finances of the parents. If you have the finances to pay then yes it should be, because they aren't going to get ANY help at all due to the parents finances- parental income can even prevent a kid from getting an on campus job and work for their money. I happened to me and it also happened to my DD. In fact the office that wanted her to work sought her out because she had a specific skill they really need and they can't hire her due to our income ( H's income to be exact ) So they are forced to hire a less qualified candidate. If people are just barely getting by and can't then no it should not. In fact I think that if it's not required to help pay for college in the divorce decree then I think the children should be emancipated from the parents or whichever legal severance is required that the child does not require a FAFSA from the parents. And the legal severance should be at the parents expense. I've seen cases where one parent wants to screw over their ex so they refuse to fill out the FAFSA for thier child to get a scholarship. Nothing like fucking your child over goid because you want to be an asshole to your ex. I've seen 2 parents do this and the kids can not receive the scholarship without the FAFSA even if it is not a need based scholarship. So your not helping your kid and they are enterprising enough to work hard and qualify for a scholarship and your going to refuse to fill out an online thing so they can provide for themselves??? Pretty low in my opinion. So I think that if parents are not in the hook for the money then they need to pay for whichever Legal severance is required so their kids can function in their own and not get caught in stupidity. Finances can change drastically between the time of the custody arrangement and time a kid starts college, especially if the child is fairly young. Someone who can afford to pay for college when the kid is 6 or 7 might not afford it at the same level (or at all) when the kid is 18. As for parents who are unwilling to fill out FAFSFA, that is not limited to divorced, unfortunately. And even if they do fill it out, it doesn't mean they will pay the expected family contribution.
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Post by peatlejuice on Sept 13, 2017 22:07:54 GMT
I don't have any input towards the poll question.
However, I do want to observe that the (non-bachelor holding) luxury auto mechanic who lives across the street from me brings home more money than I do as a college graduate (and my salary is pushing six figures). So those who are arrogantly posting here about how "college isn't an option for their kids" and that they'd cut their kids off if they chose not to go to college should perhaps pull the log out of their own eye.
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Post by hop2 on Sept 13, 2017 22:17:57 GMT
Imho that depends on the finances of the parents. If you have the finances to pay then yes it should be, because they aren't going to get ANY help at all due to the parents finances- parental income can even prevent a kid from getting an on campus job and work for their money. I happened to me and it also happened to my DD. In fact the office that wanted her to work sought her out because she had a specific skill they really need and they can't hire her due to our income ( H's income to be exact ) So they are forced to hire a less qualified candidate. If people are just barely getting by and can't then no it should not. In fact I think that if it's not required to help pay for college in the divorce decree then I think the children should be emancipated from the parents or whichever legal severance is required that the child does not require a FAFSA from the parents. And the legal severance should be at the parents expense. I've seen cases where one parent wants to screw over their ex so they refuse to fill out the FAFSA for thier child to get a scholarship. Nothing like fucking your child over goid because you want to be an asshole to your ex. I've seen 2 parents do this and the kids can not receive the scholarship without the FAFSA even if it is not a need based scholarship. So your not helping your kid and they are enterprising enough to work hard and qualify for a scholarship and your going to refuse to fill out an online thing so they can provide for themselves??? Pretty low in my opinion. So I think that if parents are not in the hook for the money then they need to pay for whichever Legal severance is required so their kids can function in their own and not get caught in stupidity. Finances can change drastically between the time of the custody arrangement and time a kid starts college, especially if the child is fairly young. Someone who can afford to pay for college when the kid is 6 or 7 might not afford it at the same level (or at all) when the kid is 18. As for parents who are unwilling to fill out FAFSFA, that is not limited to divorced, unfortunately. And even if they do fill it out, it doesn't mean they will pay the expected family contribution. I understand that they still may not pay. I'm just seeking ways to protect children from parental spiteful stupidity, which happens less in undivirced families. once your in divorce court the likelihood that one of the parents is going to do spiteful things to 'get back' at people, this leaving the young adult squarely in the middle goes up drastically. There should be some way to address this at the time of thevdivorce to at least protect the children soon to be young adults from thier parents becoming assholes- as much as is possible. Very few college freshmen can afford the legal fees to emancipate themselves from their parents should the become assholes. And the chances are increased with divorce that one or both becomes a spiteful ass unfortunately. And it isn't always the men either.
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Post by gypsymama on Sept 13, 2017 22:24:14 GMT
holy shit i live on a different planet from so many of you
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twinsmomfla99
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,981
Jun 26, 2014 13:42:47 GMT
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Post by twinsmomfla99 on Sept 13, 2017 22:25:18 GMT
I feel sorry for kids who get stuck with sh**y parents, whether those parents are married, divorced, or never-married. However, those crappy parents should not be the reason that all divorced parents lose the right to parent as they see fit, including the right to determine how post-secondary education is handled.
In my family, DH and I will pay for college, but there are strings attached. For instance, the degree has to be something that carries a reasonable chance of decent employment (even if a masters level is required). In our view, education just for the sake of education is something we are not willing to pay for.
Also, we have limits on the amount we are willing to pay, and we do not support the idea that our kids are saddled with debt after graduation. We qualify for NO federal financial aid, so if they can find merit aid, fine. Otherwise, it is an in-state public university for them.
I'm not paying $60,000 per year for a dream school, even if FAFSA suggests we can afford it with loans.
And of course, if you slack off in high school and give us no indication that you are going to have the work ethic to be successful in school, or if you decide you want to party or do drugs, then I am not going to fund two semesters of party-time until you get suspended.
These are parenting decisions DH and I have made as a married couple based on our values and sense of financial responsibility. Why shouldn't divorced parents have the same right to make these decisions just because some deadbeats cant be bothered to be a part of their children's lives?
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freebird
Drama Llama
'cause I'm free as a bird now
Posts: 6,927
Jun 25, 2014 20:06:48 GMT
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Post by freebird on Sept 13, 2017 22:26:01 GMT
I wouldn't want anyone to be burdened to pay for something that they just flat can not afford. I would have been terrified if I'd have had to pay even half of a $30-$40k/year tuition. I helped my youngest (Older didn't go to college) with as much as I could, and then he got a loan for the balance. I'm a big believer in the kids having some skin in the game, makes them work harder IMO. I just paid this semester's tuition, parking, books, etc. It was under 6K. Many colleges are nowhere near the 30-40K price tag if you live at home or stay in state. I had no skin in the game for my college tuition and I worked extremely hard and graduated early. It really depends on the kid. I do not want my boys having loans when they get out of college. My teacher friends are still paying back their loans 17 years into their careers. Ouch. At the time of my divorce, I wouldn't have been able to even pony up the extra $6k a year (1/2 of $12k at your numbers). Being forced would have been a huge burden. Again, I think if a kid wants a degree, they should help pay for it.
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Post by busy on Sept 13, 2017 22:27:04 GMT
I don't have any input towards the poll question. However, I do want to observe that the (non-bachelor holding) luxury auto mechanic who lives across the street from me brings home more money than I do as a college graduate (and my salary is pushing six figures). So those who are arrogantly posting here about how "college isn't an option for their kids" and that they'd cut their kids off if they chose not to go to college should perhaps pull the log out of their own eye. Well, that's rude. Skilled positions like mechanics and plumbers and electricians are important, sure, and can be lucrative. But they are also limiting. What happens to a plumber who is physically unable to perform that work anymore due to injury, age, whatever and they have no other education to fall back on? What happens to the mechanic just starting out today when electric and/or self-driving cars are the norm before they retire? Higher education gives you a lot more flexibility. It's not the only answer, but it's most likely to provide long term security for an individual.
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freebird
Drama Llama
'cause I'm free as a bird now
Posts: 6,927
Jun 25, 2014 20:06:48 GMT
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Post by freebird on Sept 13, 2017 22:29:55 GMT
Why not? How old are they now? What happens if they decide a year in that they do not want to continue? Because we know that it's tough to do much without a college degree. My kids have been told since day one unless they have a really good paying job or are independently wealthy at the age of 18, they will be going to college. If they decide in a year they don't want to continue? Unless there's a physical or emotional reason for them not to be on their own and working, they'll be on their own. I'm 3 out of 4 so far and don't see number 4 choosing to do something else, so for us, college would be considered in a divorce decree. May work differently for other families but that's what I would expect. And I know my husband wouldn't balk at paying for college. We've been saving for their college educations for 25 years - it's hard for me to picture him changing his tune now. There's a real push as of late to learn a trade vs a college education. My husband and I both make 6 figures a year and neither has a college education. Almost every single wealthy person I know in our town is a tradesperson. We make more than my SIL who has a doctorate and works for a huge drug company. If one of your kids wants to be a plumber or an electrician instead, I hope you'll be open to that. We need more plumbers and electricians!
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freebird
Drama Llama
'cause I'm free as a bird now
Posts: 6,927
Jun 25, 2014 20:06:48 GMT
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Post by freebird on Sept 13, 2017 22:32:14 GMT
I don't have any input towards the poll question. However, I do want to observe that the (non-bachelor holding) luxury auto mechanic who lives across the street from me brings home more money than I do as a college graduate (and my salary is pushing six figures). So those who are arrogantly posting here about how "college isn't an option for their kids" and that they'd cut their kids off if they chose not to go to college should perhaps pull the log out of their own eye. Well, that's rude. Skilled positions like mechanics and plumbers and electricians are important, sure, and can be lucrative. But they are also limiting. What happens to a plumber who is physically unable to perform that work anymore due to injury, age, whatever and they have no other education to fall back on? What happens to the mechanic just starting out today when electric and/or self-driving cars are the norm before they retire? Higher education gives you a lot more flexibility. It's not the only answer, but it's most likely to provide long term security for an individual. I can answer that question as my husband is that exact person. (we own a glass shop) If he were to be injured, he would apply for work in management or sales in our industry - and make great money. Glass is very different now than when my husband started 35 years ago. yet you learn as you go and you adapt. OJT baby.
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twinsmomfla99
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,981
Jun 26, 2014 13:42:47 GMT
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Post by twinsmomfla99 on Sept 13, 2017 22:39:16 GMT
I don't have any input towards the poll question. However, I do want to observe that the (non-bachelor holding) luxury auto mechanic who lives across the street from me brings home more money than I do as a college graduate (and my salary is pushing six figures). So those who are arrogantly posting here about how "college isn't an option for their kids" and that they'd cut their kids off if they chose not to go to college should perhaps pull the log out of their own eye. Well, that's rude. Skilled positions like mechanics and plumbers and electricians are important, sure, and can be lucrative. But they are also limiting. What happens to a plumber who is physically unable to perform that work anymore due to injury, age, whatever and they have no other education to fall back on? What happens to the mechanic just starting out today when electric and/or self-driving cars are the norm before they retire? Higher education gives you a lot more flexibility. It's not the only answer, but it's most likely to provide long term security for an individual. And what happens to the teacher with a masters degree when he or she is laid off because of budget cuts? There aren't likely to be other teaching jobs around that area because those kinds of cuts usually apply across many schools when they happen. In many fields, if your degree is more than 10 years old, it isn't worth the paper it's written on, and your future employment is more dependent on your recent job experience than your degree. Even electric and self-driving cars still need mechanics to work on them. Now, the mechanic may eventually be replaced by a robot, just as a dozen teachers may be replaced by a cyber classroom monitored by one online teacher. The mechanic has practical skills that may or may not allow him to find other employment, just as the teacher has skills that may or may not allow him to follow another career. However, the mechanic is far less likely to be paying student loans after 10 years in the business and probably has more flexibility when it comes to finding or training for another position.
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Post by peatlejuice on Sept 13, 2017 22:48:39 GMT
I don't have any input towards the poll question. However, I do want to observe that the (non-bachelor holding) luxury auto mechanic who lives across the street from me brings home more money than I do as a college graduate (and my salary is pushing six figures). So those who are arrogantly posting here about how "college isn't an option for their kids" and that they'd cut their kids off if they chose not to go to college should perhaps pull the log out of their own eye. Well, that's rude. Skilled positions like mechanics and plumbers and electricians are important, sure, and can be lucrative. But they are also limiting. What happens to a plumber who is physically unable to perform that work anymore due to injury, age, whatever and they have no other education to fall back on? What happens to the mechanic just starting out today when electric and/or self-driving cars are the norm before they retire? Higher education gives you a lot more flexibility. It's not the only answer, but it's most likely to provide long term security for an individual. Well, I think it's rude of the posters who are acting like 4 year degrees are some magic ticket to a high income (and, IMO, being disrespectful towards those who either are or have loved ones in skilled trade occupations), so don't expect an apology anytime soon from me. To answer your "what if" questions, though: I'd hope that if they retire due to age, they'd saved up for retirement (which I concede is an area in which many Americans of all education levels struggle). If it is due to injury, their life experience should count as much as a college grad. My mechanic neighbor is already learning and adapting as new technology is put into cars, and even self-driving cars will need maintenance. And they can always go back to college later if they so choose. Like you said, college is flexible.. there's no age limit to being a student.
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Post by 950nancy on Sept 13, 2017 22:57:05 GMT
I just paid this semester's tuition, parking, books, etc. It was under 6K. Many colleges are nowhere near the 30-40K price tag if you live at home or stay in state. I had no skin in the game for my college tuition and I worked extremely hard and graduated early. It really depends on the kid. I do not want my boys having loans when they get out of college. My teacher friends are still paying back their loans 17 years into their careers. Ouch. At the time of my divorce, I wouldn't have been able to even pony up the extra $6k a year (1/2 of $12k at your numbers). Being forced would have been a huge burden. Again, I think if a kid wants a degree, they should help pay for it. Totally agree that parents shouldn't have to pay, but no way was I doing that to my kids if I had the money. My parents were extremely frugal, but college was paid because my parents thought my education was important as food and shelter. So thankful they felt that way.
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Post by Sorrel on Sept 13, 2017 22:59:53 GMT
If the parties agree or if the court decides it should be. Aside from the original question, I want to comment that I have a pet peeve or gripe that for FAFSA determination, if the parents are married, both incomes are counted. However, if the same parents were divorced, only the residential or custodial parent's income is listed. I have a BIG problem with that. Both parents are PARENTS and a divorce or if they were never married, has nothing to do with PARENTAGE. I know, I know, I will get all the horror stories about how one parent never pays, dodges child support, doesn't work, etc. etc. Well, the same scenarios can happen if parents are married. Sorry, just a big vent as this social worker and her retired firefighter husband pay $20,000 in tuition and room/board, even with our son's big academic scholarship. Per FAFSA, we can "afford" to contribute $47,000 per year towards his college. And he qualified for nothing, not even work/study job option, except only $4200 in UNSUBSIDIZED student loans and he did the maximum in a TEACH grant. If not for those two things, we'd have to pay nearly $30000 in college each year. That is a third of our actual income!! To add to that, if a parent remarries, that person's income is considered, even though in all other areas they are not financially responsible for their step-children. So why should his or her income be considered in this situation? My vote is for no. Married parents aren't forced to pay, so why should divorced parents? I am divorced, and both my ex-husband and I put away money each month for the kids, it is something we agreed to do, but it is not in our divorce decree. My current husband's ex-wife refuses to contribute anything financially, so my husband puts away more. It is just how things worked out, and I don't think it should be mandated. College is not a requirement. SaveSave
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kelly8875
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,390
Location: Lost in my supplies...
Oct 26, 2014 17:02:56 GMT
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Post by kelly8875 on Sept 13, 2017 23:27:13 GMT
We considered it in our decree. We already had college funds set up, and XDH also had a inheritance from his father passing that we had always said would be used for the kids' college. I made sure that it was written in the decree for it to remain how we always said. Between our saving since they were little and the inheritance, college likely will be paid for for both kids. (Likely just undergrad though). Any money that is leftover is split between us equally. But if there is any left in those funds, my portion will go directly to my kids... I think it's fair to them if they get any money that was from the inheritance, not me.
This is what was right for us and our situation. There are lots of little this-and-that's to it all, but this is the general gist of it.
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Post by ktdoesntscrap on Sept 13, 2017 23:28:20 GMT
Finances can change drastically between the time of the custody arrangement and time a kid starts college, especially if the child is fairly young. Someone who can afford to pay for college when the kid is 6 or 7 might not afford it at the same level (or at all) when the kid is 18.
As for parents who are unwilling to fill out FAFSFA, that is not limited to divorced, unfortunately. And even if they do fill it out, it doesn't mean they will pay the expected family contribution. But that is true of any kind of child support. If the situation changes they need to go back and get it sorted out in court. That is why I think it should be tied to income.. not to exceed. a predetermined percent of income.
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Post by ktdoesntscrap on Sept 13, 2017 23:29:18 GMT
My cousin's ex took him back to court when their oldest was about to go to college. Judge ordered they each pay 1/3 - she, he and kid each had to pay a portion. I thought it was pretty good way to handle it. If I had my say that is what it would be. I think it is important for the kid to have some skin in the game.
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AnotherPea
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,968
Jan 4, 2015 1:47:52 GMT
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Post by AnotherPea on Sept 14, 2017 0:07:07 GMT
I don't have any input towards the poll question. However, I do want to observe that the (non-bachelor holding) luxury auto mechanic who lives across the street from me brings home more money than I do as a college graduate (and my salary is pushing six figures). So those who are arrogantly posting here about how "college isn't an option for their kids" and that they'd cut their kids off if they chose not to go to college should perhaps pull the log out of their own eye. Well, that's rude. Skilled positions like mechanics and plumbers and electricians are important, sure, and can be lucrative. But they are also limiting. What happens to a plumber who is physically unable to perform that work anymore due to injury, age, whatever and they have no other education to fall back on? What happens to the mechanic just starting out today when electric and/or self-driving cars are the norm before they retire? Higher education gives you a lot more flexibility. It's not the only answer, but it's most likely to provide long term security for an individual. What if the well-educated child develops early onset dementia? Gets into a car accident where intellectual capacity is diminished? Chooses a career that requires both intellect and physical dexterity?
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