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Post by not2peased on Sept 19, 2017 19:07:05 GMT
first of all, you are talking about one very small aspect of the issue (529) and yes, I am divorced, and I am the higher earning spouse (then and now)I am simply commenting on what I have seen in my 10+ years on this board and all it's iterations. The peas that tend to comment on these types of threads (divorce, child support, etc) skew more towards moms getting child support, rather than paying. I am well aware there are plenty of moms who pay support (I was one of them for a time)and well aware that plenty of women make more than their spouses. I am stating what I personally, have seen here on this board. If you think more moms that participate in these types of discussions on this board pay support than receive, then by all means, let's hear it, but I don't think it would be an accurate statement. NH doesn't require an ex spouse to pay for college, even if a previous agreement or order existed. It's because they have the "stupid" notion that imposing something on divorced spouses that isn't also a requirement for married spouses is pretty damn unfair. You keep assuming that divorced couples agree about these issues and IME, more often than not, they do not agree, leaving it up to a judge to decide. let's throw the same requirement back to married couples and if they can't agree with their kid about what amount (if any) college money is "fair" let a judge decide for them. after all, a judge wouldn't make someone pay something they couldn't afford, right? You should have NO reason to worry if YOU had to go before a judge because your daughter or son thought you should/could pay more than what you already decided was feasible. I'm speaking for myself - I don't know or care whether or peas are receiving support or not. While 529s may be a relatively small aspect, they're part of a larger context of financial unraveling of a married couple. The negotiations around that unwinding should include any potential future support. About 60% of children receive any help with college, so I'm sure only a similar number of divorces with children would include a provision. If you're low income and have never intended to help pay for you children's college, it may be a small or non-existent factor. If you'd accumulated a few hundred thousand in a 529, it's pretty important. And if you've gone through the entire negotiation of splitting of marital assets and an understanding how and if the parents are contributing to college and a NH judge throws it out a later, that's bullshit - particularly if a spouse relinquished other assets based on that understanding. I currently hold both of our children's 529 in my name. It would be utterly unfair for me to claim I will use those marital assets for the benefit of the children and split our other assets with that agreement and then turn around 5 years from now and decide - well I don't believe in paying for college and cash it out. there are ways to unwind finances without forcing a parent to pay for their child's college. It's done all the time, and they do it NH despite not being able to force parents to pay for college. Not sure why you are stuck on this one issue when the whole discussion is about college tuition provisions in divorce decrees. Either you can force a parent to pay for college or not and some of you seem to think it's no big deal to force someone else to pay, but when the shoe is on the other foot and it might be you being told you have to pay (even if you say you plan to) all of a sudden it's not fair.
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Post by auntkelly on Sept 19, 2017 19:11:10 GMT
My husband and I have been married for almost thirty years. We are both lawyers, and we are stubborn, competitive and argumentative. (Probably one of the reasons we've never gotten a divorce is because we both know no one else would have us). If we had gotten a divorce when our kids were young, we probably would have fought over everything. We would have gone to court over every piece of Tupperware. However, I think we would have quickly come to an agreement over paying for our kids' college education. Both of us came from families in which our parents and grandparents believed in the importance of a college education and made huge sacrifices to pay for their kid's educations. I can see where it would be a very contentious issue in a divorce when the parents don't agree on whether parents should pay for their kid's education.
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Post by Darcy Collins on Sept 19, 2017 19:19:18 GMT
I'm speaking for myself - I don't know or care whether or peas are receiving support or not. While 529s may be a relatively small aspect, they're part of a larger context of financial unraveling of a married couple. The negotiations around that unwinding should include any potential future support. About 60% of children receive any help with college, so I'm sure only a similar number of divorces with children would include a provision. If you're low income and have never intended to help pay for you children's college, it may be a small or non-existent factor. If you'd accumulated a few hundred thousand in a 529, it's pretty important. And if you've gone through the entire negotiation of splitting of marital assets and an understanding how and if the parents are contributing to college and a NH judge throws it out a later, that's bullshit - particularly if a spouse relinquished other assets based on that understanding. I currently hold both of our children's 529 in my name. It would be utterly unfair for me to claim I will use those marital assets for the benefit of the children and split our other assets with that agreement and then turn around 5 years from now and decide - well I don't believe in paying for college and cash it out. there are ways to unwind finances without forcing a parent to pay for their child's college. It's done all the time, and they do it NH despite not being able to force parents to pay for college. Not sure why you are stuck on this one issue when the whole discussion is about college tuition provisions in divorce decrees. Either you can force a parent to pay for college or not and some of you seem to think it's no big deal to force someone else to pay, but when the shoe is on the other foot and it might be you being told you have to pay (even if you say you plan to) all of a sudden it's not fair. Of course it's done all the time. I'm not sure what part of considered in the OP you're not grasping. In some cases, considered will result in nothing as the individuals cannot afford to pay for college. But there are a whole hell of a lot of people out there who CAN help pay for college-and spent an entire marriage agreeing to help pay for college and saving for college. Unfortunately the bitterness of divorce can spill over to the parents being utter assholes and refusing to help the children when they absolutely would have paid if the couple were still married. And speaking for MYSELF as the parent who would have to pay - yes I would expect it to be part of my hypothetical divorce decree.
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Post by not2peased on Sept 19, 2017 20:49:02 GMT
there are ways to unwind finances without forcing a parent to pay for their child's college. It's done all the time, and they do it NH despite not being able to force parents to pay for college. Not sure why you are stuck on this one issue when the whole discussion is about college tuition provisions in divorce decrees. Either you can force a parent to pay for college or not and some of you seem to think it's no big deal to force someone else to pay, but when the shoe is on the other foot and it might be you being told you have to pay (even if you say you plan to) all of a sudden it's not fair. Of course it's done all the time. I'm not sure what part of considered in the OP you're not grasping. In some cases, considered will result in nothing as the individuals cannot afford to pay for college. But there are a whole hell of a lot of people out there who CAN help pay for college-and spent an entire marriage agreeing to help pay for college and saving for college. Unfortunately the bitterness of divorce can spill over to the parents being utter assholes and refusing to help the children when they absolutely would have paid if the couple were still married. And speaking for MYSELF as the parent who would have to pay - yes I would expect it to be part of my hypothetical divorce decree. married parents can be assholes who can afford to pay for college, and agreed to pay for college for an entire marriage, and then can't/won't. what's wrong with them being forced to pay too? if it's such a fair practice, it should be extended to married couples and divorced couples. Get it in writing, submit it to the court. since you plan on paying anyway, and have planned your entire marriage for this, it won't be a big deal to put the promise in writing and file it with the court, right?
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Post by Darcy Collins on Sept 19, 2017 20:50:05 GMT
Of course it's done all the time. I'm not sure what part of considered in the OP you're not grasping. In some cases, considered will result in nothing as the individuals cannot afford to pay for college. But there are a whole hell of a lot of people out there who CAN help pay for college-and spent an entire marriage agreeing to help pay for college and saving for college. Unfortunately the bitterness of divorce can spill over to the parents being utter assholes and refusing to help the children when they absolutely would have paid if the couple were still married. And speaking for MYSELF as the parent who would have to pay - yes I would expect it to be part of my hypothetical divorce decree. married parents can be assholes who can afford to pay for college, and agreed to pay for college for an entire marriage, and then can't/won't. what's wrong with them being forced to pay too? if it's such a fair practice, it should be extended to married couples and divorced couples. Get it in writing, submit it to the court. since you plan on paying anyway, and have planned your entire marriage for this, it won't be a big deal to put the promise in writing and file it with the court, right? Bitter much?
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Post by busy on Sept 19, 2017 20:55:21 GMT
Of course it's done all the time. I'm not sure what part of considered in the OP you're not grasping. In some cases, considered will result in nothing as the individuals cannot afford to pay for college. But there are a whole hell of a lot of people out there who CAN help pay for college-and spent an entire marriage agreeing to help pay for college and saving for college. Unfortunately the bitterness of divorce can spill over to the parents being utter assholes and refusing to help the children when they absolutely would have paid if the couple were still married. And speaking for MYSELF as the parent who would have to pay - yes I would expect it to be part of my hypothetical divorce decree. married parents can be assholes who can afford to pay for college, and agreed to pay for college for an entire marriage, and then can't/won't. what's wrong with them being forced to pay too? if it's such a fair practice, it should be extended to married couples and divorced couples. Get it in writing, submit it to the court. since you plan on paying anyway, and have planned your entire marriage for this, it won't be a big deal to put the promise in writing and file it with the court, right? Good lord, you obviously have a very personal, very angry dog in this fight. I think you're missing the main point being made by several people here because you can't see beyond your own situation.
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Post by not2peased on Sept 19, 2017 21:02:49 GMT
married parents can be assholes who can afford to pay for college, and agreed to pay for college for an entire marriage, and then can't/won't. what's wrong with them being forced to pay too? if it's such a fair practice, it should be extended to married couples and divorced couples. Get it in writing, submit it to the court. since you plan on paying anyway, and have planned your entire marriage for this, it won't be a big deal to put the promise in writing and file it with the court, right? Bitter much? I am not bitter at all, lol my kids are adults and no one tried to make me pay for my kids college-something I am assisting my youngest with now-with no help from his father, nor would I try to "make" him pay. I don't think parents should be legally obligated to pay for college for their kids-it's apparent you do- but only if they are divorced and can afford it, but not if they are married and can afford it, which really makes very little sense. at least one state has seen the unfairness of the practice and has done something to stop it. I would imagine other states will follow suit at some point-once enough challenges are made to the practice. Or maybe all of us will be legally obligated to pay for our kid's college-if we can afford it-eliminating the issue of divorced parents getting saddled with an unfair burden. it's obvious you are taking a simple disagreement on the internet a little further than is warranted, but name calling is what people do when they lack a cohesive argument, so I will take your little barb as a compliment
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Post by not2peased on Sept 19, 2017 21:11:44 GMT
married parents can be assholes who can afford to pay for college, and agreed to pay for college for an entire marriage, and then can't/won't. what's wrong with them being forced to pay too? if it's such a fair practice, it should be extended to married couples and divorced couples. Get it in writing, submit it to the court. since you plan on paying anyway, and have planned your entire marriage for this, it won't be a big deal to put the promise in writing and file it with the court, right? Good lord, you obviously have a very personal, very angry dog in this fight. I think you're missing the main point being made by several people here because you can't see beyond your own situation. not at all bitter as I was never required to pay for my kids college-I help with the expense as much as I can. their dad does not, but that's his decision and not one I would even question you must not be used to dealing with people who don't share the same opinion as you. Sometimes people have a different opinion on a subject and will voice that opinion, even when someone verbally disagrees with it. It's ok though, no need to get freaked out over it or call people names or assume they are angry or bitter because they don't agree.
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pudgygroundhog
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,643
Location: The Grand Canyon
Jun 25, 2014 20:18:39 GMT
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Post by pudgygroundhog on Sept 19, 2017 21:13:27 GMT
I don't have any input towards the poll question. However, I do want to observe that the (non-bachelor holding) luxury auto mechanic who lives across the street from me brings home more money than I do as a college graduate (and my salary is pushing six figures). So those who are arrogantly posting here about how "college isn't an option for their kids" and that they'd cut their kids off if they chose not to go to college should perhaps pull the log out of their own eye. I'm one of those parents that expects her daughter to go to college. Now, she is only in fifth grade, so who knows what will happen by that time. If the time comes and traditional college is not a good fit, then we'll cross that bridge. I've told her that no matter what she does, she can benefit from furthering her education and that is what is expected of her. If it's a trade, then classes at a votech or apprenticeship program and business classes if she plans to run our own business with that trade. But in the meantime, I'm assuming college and it's something we've talked about quite a bit (she's asked a lot of questions about it - I'm not sitting her down and lecturing about college). My beliefs are certainly shaded by how I grew up and the importance my own parents placed on education. College was a great experience for me and not just for education. I'd like my daughter to have that same opportunity. That is not mutually exclusive with respecting trade jobs. And I don't believe a college degree is any kind of guarantee of anything (something we've also talked about with her), but it certainly is necessary and/or opens a lot of doors depending on your field. Right now she wants to be a chemist (I know, fifth grade - who knows what she will do) - college pretty much required for that. It's required for my job and in my industry there is a pretty drastic difference between the jobs you have with a degree or without a degree.
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Post by Darcy Collins on Sept 19, 2017 21:20:21 GMT
I am not bitter at all, lol my kids are adults and no one tried to make me pay for my kids college-something I am assisting my youngest with now-with no help from his father, nor would I try to "make" him pay. I don't think parents should be legally obligated to pay for college for their kids-it's apparent you do- but only if they are divorced and can afford it, but not if they are married and can afford it, which really makes very little sense. at least one state has seen the unfairness of the practice and has done something to stop it. I would imagine other states will follow suit at some point-once enough challenges are made to the practice. Or maybe all of us will be legally obligated to pay for our kid's college-if we can afford it-eliminating the issue of divorced parents getting saddled with an unfair burden. it's obvious you are taking a simple disagreement on the internet a little further than is warranted, but name calling is what people do when they lack a cohesive argument, so I will take your little barb as a compliment I haven't called you any names. Courts are involved in divorce as it's a legal dissolution - it's really not that complicated. Both parents have financial obligations to their children, which necessitates a judge ruling on financial matters. I don't know a single person who has been through the process who thinks it's fun. But to somehow create some kind of false equivalency between a court being involved in divorce and that obligating other parents to allow a judge to rule on financial matters within a marriage is just bizarre. And I'm having a rather difficult time discussing this with you as you have continually ignored the fact that I have said multiple times that it's just whether they can afford it, but the understanding between the MARRIED individuals regarding how they choose to finance or not THEIR children's college which should be considered in THEIR asset dissolution.
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Post by not2peased on Sept 19, 2017 21:49:19 GMT
I am not bitter at all, lol my kids are adults and no one tried to make me pay for my kids college-something I am assisting my youngest with now-with no help from his father, nor would I try to "make" him pay. I don't think parents should be legally obligated to pay for college for their kids-it's apparent you do- but only if they are divorced and can afford it, but not if they are married and can afford it, which really makes very little sense. at least one state has seen the unfairness of the practice and has done something to stop it. I would imagine other states will follow suit at some point-once enough challenges are made to the practice. Or maybe all of us will be legally obligated to pay for our kid's college-if we can afford it-eliminating the issue of divorced parents getting saddled with an unfair burden. it's obvious you are taking a simple disagreement on the internet a little further than is warranted, but name calling is what people do when they lack a cohesive argument, so I will take your little barb as a compliment I haven't called you any names. Courts are involved in divorce as it's a legal dissolution - it's really not that complicated. Both parents have financial obligations to their children, which necessitates a judge ruling on financial matters. I don't know a single person who has been through the process who thinks it's fun. But to somehow create some kind of false equivalency between a court being involved in divorce and that obligating other parents to allow a judge to rule on financial matters within a marriage is just bizarre. And I'm having a rather difficult time discussing this with you as you have continually ignored the fact that I have said multiple times that it's just whether they can afford it, but the understanding between the MARRIED individuals regarding how they choose to finance or not THEIR children's college which should be considered in THEIR asset dissolution. I "heard"and understood your entire argument-you are talking about one aspect of a divorce-asset dissolution. there are ways to manage this without making paying for college a requirement. NH does it right now-so we have proof its possible. there may be other states that have this approach as well. The bigger legal issue, IMO, is at what point are parents obligated to provide financial support for their adult children? what does that financial support entail? how long does that financial commitment continue? many parents go into a divorce without an agreement as to whether or not college should be paid for by one or both parents. there are plenty that did not make adequate financial arrangements for college for their kids, so there is NO asset allocation as it relates to college, yet judges often rule that the party who is currently paying child support also has to pay for college. If a child is legally entitled to support from their parents through college, what is to stop a child from suing their married parents for support to pay for college? what makes the fact that the parents are divorced render them liable for college expenses, when the same exact parents, same child don't have that requirement if they remain married? as a judge, how would you explain that married parents don't have to do something that their divorced counterparts do have to provide. That's pretty tough. these are LEGAL questions I am wondering about and yes, I think the logic in many of these decisions is faulty. Not because I am some bitter, lonely person who resents all the ladies getting child support for their kids and who have their kids college paid for. I don't keep score about who "gets" something I don't, or who doesn't have to pay for something that I have to. I don't operate that way-I am extremely grateful for everyone and everything in my life and am always aware that in many, many ways I have it pretty damn good. calling someone bitter is name calling in my book, because it's meant to wound, it's meant to make me feel badly for disagreeing with you, because you are implying that I am only disagreeing with you because I am upset at my own situation, and that not only is it not true, it's a tactic that demeans you and your argument. You can't "win" the argument so you feel the need to shut down my argument with a personal dig when just stating your case isn't getting me to slink away in defeat.
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Post by Darcy Collins on Sept 19, 2017 22:08:44 GMT
I haven't called you any names. Courts are involved in divorce as it's a legal dissolution - it's really not that complicated. Both parents have financial obligations to their children, which necessitates a judge ruling on financial matters. I don't know a single person who has been through the process who thinks it's fun. But to somehow create some kind of false equivalency between a court being involved in divorce and that obligating other parents to allow a judge to rule on financial matters within a marriage is just bizarre. And I'm having a rather difficult time discussing this with you as you have continually ignored the fact that I have said multiple times that it's just whether they can afford it, but the understanding between the MARRIED individuals regarding how they choose to finance or not THEIR children's college which should be considered in THEIR asset dissolution. ....The bigger legal issue, IMO, is at what point are parents obligated to provide financial support for their adult children? what does that financial support entail? how long does that financial commitment continue? many parents go into a divorce without an agreement as to whether or not college should be paid for by one or both parents. there are plenty that did not make adequate financial arrangements for college for their kids, so there is NO asset allocation as it relates to college, yet judges often rule that the party who is currently paying child support also has to pay for college. If a child is legally entitled to support from their parents through college, what is to stop a child from suing their married parents for support to pay for college? what makes the fact that the parents are divorced render them liable for college expenses, when the same exact parents, same child don't have that requirement if they remain married? as a judge, how would you explain that married parents don't have to do something that their divorced counterparts do have to provide. That's pretty tough. ... When the couple has agreed to it within their marriage. There is no legal obligation for a person to financially support another person, but alimony exists because the parties created the obligation within the constructs of their marriage - sometimes by deciding to have one party stay at home and forgo a career for instance. If a married couple agreed within the marriage to provide college support to their children, that agreement should be considered within the context of the financial dissolution of the marriage. If no one has ever given it a thought and hasn't saved any money, that obligation might be small. But some people actually discuss and agree within a marriage on their financial decisions. They decide how many children they're going to have and balance college and retirement savings versus vacations all based on their agreements. All of it should be considered within the framework of divorce dissolution.
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