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Post by Merge on Jan 21, 2018 19:25:42 GMT
We were discussing military pay, not DACA. The title of the thread is "SHUTDOWN". Military pay is certainly one aspect of the SHUTDOWN as is DACA. Again, not deflecting. Just because you don't want to address my comment, doesn't make it deflection. I hope you don't shut your husband down like that often by shouting DEFLECT at him. Yes, the Democrats are holding out on DACA. But they wouldn't have to if the president and Republicans in congress hadn't failed to keep their promise about getting rid of DACA so they could pass legislation to protect the Dreamers instead. Truth is, they never intended to pass any legislation, and now the Democrats have called their bluff, and they don't like it. They know that 86% of Americans support protections for Dreamers, but Trump's base doesn't, so they want to give lip service to finding a solution while not actually finding one. Good for the Democrats for holding their feet to the fire on this. I'll also point out that the only reason the Republicans have CHIP as a bargaining tool is because they've been putting off renewing it for months. It was, apparently, more important to try repeatedly to repeal Obamacare, a move that most Americans opposed, and then to give huge tax cuts to rich people, than to fund a program that virtually everyone is in favor of.
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Jan 21, 2018 19:33:53 GMT
Oh I'm fully aware. This is a unique shutdown situation in that the WH, House and Senate are controlled by the GOP for the first time in history. But this has been a year of firsts, many of them dubious and damaging. But 60 votes are needed so even if ALL Republicans voted, Dems we’re still needed. It’s not just simple majority Still doesn’t negate the fact that they didn’t have all the republicans votes, including McConnell if I read correctly.
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Jan 21, 2018 19:39:01 GMT
emotionally manipulate the public Kind of like what the dems are doing with DACA, right? Hypocrisy and irony, anyone? Not even close. Republicans killed all hopes of that because they have lied and back tracked and changed their position—-Democrats have every single right to believe that the GOP will lie again and back track. Or did you mean like how the Repubs are holding the Dreamers in limbo to pay for a wall no one really wants —except Trump and he’s lied multiple times about who pays for it. He’s holding Dreamers and CHIP hostage for that fucking wall—you know, the one Mexico is paying for... TRUMP + GOP = LIARS.
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Jan 21, 2018 19:53:36 GMT
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2018 20:21:32 GMT
The GOP is lucky that they can hide how divided they are on immigration. But it will come out soon enough. The big money GOP is horrified that Cotton and others are calling for pullbacks on LEGAL immigration let alone what we do w/DACA. The big money GOP loves high-skilled immigrants to help fill out STEM jobs AND they love low-skilled immigrants for back-breaking low-pay jobs. The racist GOP wants it all brought down to a mere trickle. Sooner or later, they won't have the Dems running interference and we'll see how that plays out. My money is on the money. Best democracy money can buy. www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/01/gop-immigration-bill/550724/PS - re "chained migration" Trump might want to remember a bit of his family history "In a typical example, in 1885, Friedrich Trump, Donald Trump’s grandfather, immigrated from Germany as a 16-year-old with little English to join his oldest sister. His sister “had immigrated to New York a year earlier,” according to Gwenda Blair, author of The Trumps: Three Generations of Builders and a President. After gaining success in America, Friedrich returned to Germany and found a bride, Elizabeth Christ, who immigrated to the U.S. with him and gave birth to Fred Trump, Donald Trump’s father." www.forbes.com/forbes/welcome/?toURL=https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2018/01/12/family-ties-even-donald-trump-is-a-product-of-chain-migration
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eleezybeth
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,784
Jun 28, 2014 20:42:01 GMT
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Post by eleezybeth on Jan 21, 2018 20:55:31 GMT
"In the federal government of the United States, the power of the purse is vested in the Congress as laid down in the Constitution of the United States, Article I, Section 9. The shutdown isn’t because of Schumer or failed negotiations this weekend. It failed because the republicans put their belief of some mandate to revoke Obamacare and other initiatives before their primary responsibility as the majority power to govern. Every year they are required to pass a budget. Yet, by focusing on what they wanted to do before what you HAD to do we are now in a shutdown. Their blindness and recklessnes actually has enabled the democratic party to gain control from a weakened position."
I saw this posted on FB and it brought to light some ideas that made sense to me. This is what the 3rd continuing resolution for this budget? The budget always becomes the political pawn and yet we are surprised? What if the republicans would have renewed CHIP 8 months ago? Refuse to fund healthcare for children while simultaneously trying to limit access to birth control and abortions is ridiculously immoral. Yet, here we are.
Denial of DACA makes no damn sense. The economic impact of not supporting DACA speaks loudly! Claim our economy is a mess and then create an economic disaster by not supporting DACA? WTH?
And, can I just say stop using the fucking military as pawns. This whole fake patriotism of "pay our troops" is so transparent that it makes me want to throw up. Do your damn jobs from day one and you wouldn't be putting the military in your political tug of war. You'd sure hate to answer any questions about how DACA impacts the military too.
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Post by pierogi on Jan 21, 2018 21:00:00 GMT
Kind of like what the dems are doing with DACA, right? Hypocrisy and irony, anyone? I think I need to start doing here what I do to my husband when we have these political conversations. Instead of taking the bait, just name the tactic he is using to derail the conversation when he doesn't like or agree with a point I have made. Deflect. It's also a good example of Whataboutism.
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Post by redhead32 on Jan 21, 2018 21:28:27 GMT
Such an easy thing for you to say - March 5 deadline halts it all. Except it matters if you are unsure of your future as the courts battle it out. Can you really not understand that these are actual, living people you are so callously disregarding? I'm not callously disregarding the Dreamers. You might have missed where I've said I sympathize. And immigration as a whole needs to be fixed. However, the fight for DACA and immigration reform does NOT belong intertwined in the budget. Our government should NOT be shut down over non-budget items.They are people. Living, breathing, working people. Let immigration reform fall to the side. But DACA? I'm never going to say "Yeah. Let's not worry about those 800,000 people that followed the rules that the government gave them and have done no harm and have no fault."
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Post by lucyg on Jan 21, 2018 21:30:19 GMT
The title of the thread is "SHUTDOWN". Military pay is certainly one aspect of the SHUTDOWN as is DACA.  Again, not deflecting. Just because you don't want to address my comment, doesn't make it deflection. I hope you don't shut your husband down like that often by shouting DEFLECT at him.  Yes, the Democrats are holding out on DACA.  But they wouldn't have to if the president and Republicans in congress hadn't failed to keep their promise about getting rid of DACA so they could pass legislation to protect the Dreamers instead.  Truth is, they never intended to pass any legislation, and now the Democrats have called their bluff, and they don't like it.  They know that 86% of Americans support protections for Dreamers, but Trump's base doesn't, so they want to give lip service to finding a solution while not actually finding one. Good for the Democrats for holding their feet to the fire on this. I'll also point out that the only reason the Republicans have CHIP as a bargaining tool is because they've been putting off renewing it for months.  It was, apparently, more important to try repeatedly to repeal Obamacare, a move that most Americans opposed, and then to give huge tax cuts to rich people, than to fund a program that virtually everyone is in favor of.  Bears repeating.
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Post by lucyg on Jan 21, 2018 21:30:52 GMT
"In the federal government of the United States, the power of the purse is vested in the Congress as laid down in the Constitution of the United States, Article I, Section 9. The shutdown isn’t because of Schumer or failed negotiations this weekend. It failed because the republicans put their belief of some mandate to revoke Obamacare and other initiatives before their primary responsibility as the majority power to govern. Every year they are required to pass a budget. Yet, by focusing on what they wanted to do before what you HAD to do we are now in a shutdown. Their blindness and recklessnes actually has enabled the democratic party to gain control from a weakened position." I saw this posted on FB and it brought to light some ideas that made sense to me. This is what the 3rd continuing resolution for this budget? The budget always becomes the political pawn and yet we are surprised? What if the republicans would have renewed CHIP 8 months ago? Refuse to fund healthcare for children while simultaneously trying to limit access to birth control and abortions is ridiculously immoral. Yet, here we are. Denial of DACA makes no damn sense. The economic impact of not supporting DACA speaks loudly! Claim our economy is a mess and then create an economic disaster by not supporting DACA? WTH? And, can I just say stop using the fucking military as pawns. This whole fake patriotism of "pay our troops" is so transparent that it makes me want to throw up. Do your damn jobs from day one and you wouldn't be putting the military in your political tug of war. You'd sure hate to answer any questions about how DACA impacts the military too. Also bears repeating.
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Jan 21, 2018 23:17:05 GMT
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Post by lucyg on Jan 21, 2018 23:19:48 GMT
PCA, that is a great list of suggestions. I am saving and will refer back often. Love Robert Reich.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2018 23:22:34 GMT
Too bad Robert Reich didn't write it. SnopesMisinformation can get the best of us, huh?
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Post by crimsoncat05 on Jan 22, 2018 0:12:21 GMT
you make it sound like he plagiarized it or something- not the case, at all. Mistakenly attributed to him, yes-- stolen by him, no.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2018 0:12:31 GMT
Too bad Robert Reich didn't write it. SnopesMisinformation can get the best of us, huh? Which he acknowledged on January 5th on Facebook. As bad as spreading misinformation its just as bad not telling the entire story. Robert Reich... “I don't know who put this list going around the internet under my name (I certainly didn't write it), but there's some good advice here for the new year. What do you think?”
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Jan 22, 2018 0:17:44 GMT
Too bad Robert Reich didn't write it. SnopesMisinformation can get the best of us, huh? Because the author is the entire point of the reasons.. 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄 There isn’t any “misinformation” in the list sweetheart, so your failure of a “gotcha” falls on deaf ears. Don’t care who wrote it, I posted it as a good list of relevant and valuable information to think about. Glad snopes cleared up the author, but that was not relevant to the list.
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Jan 22, 2018 0:20:27 GMT
@samiam Feel better now?
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Post by dewryce on Jan 22, 2018 0:23:08 GMT
@gajenny It's funny that you are accusing me of the exact same thing you are doing and you don't even see it. I was hoping for a conversation about military pay but that's obviously not going to happen. That's okay. You want to talk about immigtation and DACA, wonderful. Several peas have kept that part of the conversation going feel free to join in.
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Jan 22, 2018 0:25:47 GMT
@gajenny It's funny that you are accusing me of the exact same thing you are doing. I was hoping for a conversation about military pay but that's obviously not going to happen. That's okay. You want to talk about immigtation and DACA, wonderful. Several peas have kept that part of the conversation going feel free to join in. It’s part of her MO. It’s not the first time it’s happened, and likely won’t be the last! It’s just an attempt to redirect the conversation to her (their) talking points instead of the matter at hand. You see the GOP and Cabinet members do this ALL. THE. TIME!
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Post by dewryce on Jan 22, 2018 0:26:20 GMT
Too bad Robert Reich didn't write it. SnopesMisinformation can get the best of us, huh? Because the author is the entire point of the reasons.. 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄 There isn’t any “misinformation” in the list sweetheart, so your failure of a “gotcha” falls on deaf ears. Don’t care who wrote it, I posted it as a good list of relevant and valuable information to think about. Glad snopes cleared up the author, but that was not relevant to the list. Purposefully deflected and missed the point entirely. Common tactic.
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Post by dewryce on Jan 22, 2018 0:32:17 GMT
I just find it frustrating because I really am trying to look at both sides of these arguments for several reasons. One of them, DH and I don't agree politically and getting his thoughts across on these topics isn't one of his strengths. I have a true, deep desire to understand where the other side (especially him) is coming from. To that end I am reading from tons of different sources, including those slanted pretty right.
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Post by lucyg on Jan 22, 2018 0:33:22 GMT
@samiam Feel better now? Thank you. I'm saving this version instead. And for @samiam's benefit, I looked at Reich's Twitter so I could share it directly from there, and learned from Reich himself that it was not his work. So I did not post it. But thanks for the (premature and condescending) hand slap, all the same.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2018 0:56:39 GMT
@samiam Feel better now? Thank you. I'm saving this version instead. And for @samiam 's benefit, I looked at Reich's Twitter so I could share it directly from there, and learned from Reich himself that it wasn't not his work. So I did not post it. But thanks for the (premature and condescending) hand slap, all the same. I don't know why you think I'm handslapping you. I didn't quote you, and I know you didn't post it. I was pointing out a general fact.
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Jan 22, 2018 1:03:48 GMT
Thank you. I'm saving this version instead. And for @samiam 's benefit, I looked at Reich's Twitter so I could share it directly from there, and learned from Reich himself that it wasn't not his work. So I did not post it. But thanks for the (premature and condescending) hand slap, all the same. I don't know why you think I'm handslapping you. I didn't quote you, and I know you didn't post it. I was pointing out a general fact. As was she— lucyg only pointing out the fact of your condescension and hand slapping.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2018 1:09:55 GMT
Too bad Robert Reich didn't write it. SnopesMisinformation can get the best of us, huh? Which he acknowledged on January 5th on Facebook. As bad as spreading misinformation its just as bad not telling the entire story. Robert Reich... “I don't know who put this list going around the internet under my name (I certainly didn't write it), but there's some good advice here for the new year. What do you think?” I have seen it all now. Your friend up there posted a list. Which says it's from a specific author. It's inaccurate. I point it out. She is the queen of pointing out what she thinks is misinformation. She loves to claim conservatives get their info from right-wing media sites, people are misinformed, and whatever other insults she feels like slinging in the moment. Your argument that I didn't tell the entire story is bull. I said he didn't write it. I posted the link. I didn't hide it. Anyone that read it can see for themselves what he said. And he said he didn't write it. Again, she posted a list. It gave credit to an author that didn't write it. All she had to do was say, "oh shit, well I like what it says anyway." And this gets turned on me. If this isn't the ultimate spin, I don't know what is.
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Post by coffeetalk on Jan 22, 2018 1:11:42 GMT
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2018 1:22:56 GMT
You and I were originally discussing military pay. You tried to deflect and bring up a different topic. I'm simply not taking the bait. If you'd like to go back to the original conversation I'd be happy to. I won't compartmentalize like that. The entire discussion (DACA and Military pay) is part of the shutdown discussion (watch any news...you'll see it all goes hand in hand...both are very much being discussed today. It's unfortunate you're unable to focus on more than one issue at hand here) Conversations grow and evolve. It's okay. In the meantime, you continue to ignore the valid point I brought up. Look at all of this back and forth between us because you cannot address my statement because we're not discussing the segment that you want to discuss. I guess that shows that if you had anything to add, you certainly would've by now instead of making your deflection claims. *shrug* Just another stupid tactic when they're unable to address a point they don't like. First it was everyone who didn't agree with them was a racist, homophobic, xenophobe. When that lost it's credibility after everyone on the Right was labeled as such and they quit talking or outright just left the board, the Left switched to everyone who doesn't agree with us is a shit-stirring, gas-lighting, troll when there's a point they can't refute. And they started out with "this is the topic of the thread, don't let the conversation evolve because you made a point I have no other way of refuting, so it/you must be shut down". Now suddenly it's "yes, that topic is being discussed but not by me, so you can't bring it up because I have no valid way to refute your point, so I'll just call you a deflecting gas-lighting, troll. They're too fucking stupid (another of their favorite labels) to realize how obvious they are with their moronic, ever changing rules when they have no other way to refute a fact or point that contradicts their narrative. They think just because they outnumber the opposing view they can pile on and that alone will make them right. Pile on in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1... They live for it.
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Post by lovemybabes on Jan 22, 2018 1:31:20 GMT
My dh is active duty Army. I sure hope something happens soon to fix it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2018 1:40:06 GMT
No it absolutely is not right. But not surprised considering the petty guy that sits in the Oval Office.
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Jan 22, 2018 1:44:44 GMT
Which he acknowledged on January 5th on Facebook. As bad as spreading misinformation its just as bad not telling the entire story. Robert Reich... “I don't know who put this list going around the internet under my name (I certainly didn't write it), but there's some good advice here for the new year. What do you think?” I have seen it all now. Your friend up there posted a list. Which says it's from a specific author. It's inaccurate. I point it out. She is the queen of pointing out what she thinks is misinformation. She loves to claim conservatives get their info from right-wing media sites, people are misinformed, and whatever other insults she feels like slinging in the moment. Your argument that I didn't tell the entire story is bull. I said he didn't write it. I posted the link. I didn't hide it. Anyone that read it can see for themselves what he said. And he said he didn't write it. Again, she posted a list. It gave credit to an author that didn't write it. All she had to do was say, "oh shit, well I like what it says anyway." And this gets turned on me. If this isn't the ultimate spin, I don't know what is. You are truly grasping here. I did just as you suggested, even before you mentioned it but it wasn’t good enough for you now. You tried for the “big old gotcha” fail and went on to make a comment about me providing “misinformation “. The attribute was incorrect the content was NOT. There was not any misinformation in the 1-10. I further elaborated immediately after you pointed out it was not the right author. (Your oh shit I like the info comment is EXACTLY what I did) But yet here you are bitching about “how right you are, you’ve seen it all, blah, blah blah blah blah—-“ regardless of it being put into the proper context, and correction made yet here you are still bitching.
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