Can we talk pro-life and Pro choice...

I feel the same as you.

I also feel that if you're pro birth then you must be pro life and be willing to assist those you are insisting have a child no matter what the circumstances. You can be practicing safe sex and still get pregnant. You can be a virgin, get raped and get pregnant. You can be told your baby is growing in your fallopian tube and you risk serious injury or death if you stay pregnant. You can be told that your fetus will not survive the pregnancy or will not survive birth. Where is the support for these circumstances? Why does a woman become nothing more than a vessel to carry a baby to term and her life lose all it's value to these people? If you want/insist that these children be born, then you MUST care what happens to them after that. To do less than that is disingenuous and quite the opposite of Christian principles that they say they hold dear.


I also strongly believe that there are more than a few who would change their mind if these circumstances befell them or their daughter or wife or sister.

Finally, I firmly believe that abortion is not used as a form of birth control by lazy women and that there are late term abortions happening all the time. These arguments don't hold water and are just words thrown around to scare people who believe what they are told and don't think beyond that. It's reprehensible to lie like that.

I am not pro abortion. I am pro choice and I don't feel it's my place to judge the decision.

I believe that getting involved in these choices is not something the government should do. Those who feel strongly about it, should join groups and churches that offer education and other choices to women. Sounds simple, but it takes work and it is easier to just turn it over to the government to deal with.

I was lying in bed this morning thinking about this very topic. I really don't understand the "one issue voters", and how they are willing to overlook all the disgusting things trump has said and done, things that have harmed real life living breathing people, for this one issue. 

I keep going back to these two fabulous articles by John Pavlovich. He puts forward a lot of (in my opinion) brilliant arguments, from a Christian viewpoint. I would copy and paste the best bits, but honestly there are too many "best bits" so you may as well read the whole thing!

If White Conservatives Loved All People The Way They Do Embryos

and 

The Fraudulence of ‘Pro-life, Christian’ Bullies

I’m pro choice all the way. I do not love late term abortions, but I can understand them when they are medically necessary. It is my understanding that they are not performed unless the situation is dire. Doctors do not want to terminate a viable fetus for parental inconvenience. I actually do not love abortions at all. It’s not a choice that I can see myself making, though depending on the circumstances I might. I also understand that it is not my place to decide what may or may not happen between a woman and her doctor regarding her pregnancy and her body.

The point is is that it is a medical choice that every woman should have the individual right to make for herself and her fetus. It is a medical procedure that should be allowed to happen safely no matter the location and social status of the woman.

It is not the place of politicians to interfere in the doctor/patient relationship.

So I'm both pro-choice and pro-life, but in terms of my abortion stance I'm pro-choice. What I mean by saying I'm both is that I believe (and I'm pretty confident there is data that backs this up) that the most effective way to avoid abortions is to provide excellent sex education and encourage frank conversations on sex and birth control from childhood, by making all manner of birth control widely available and affordable, by having excellent and affordable (i.e. medicare) health care for mom and children, by having a generous maternity leave (in Canada it's 12-18 months) and subsidized daycare. In other words, create conditions that support and encourage women being able to have children. I can't speak to the US numbers, but in Canada abortion rates have dropped in the last decade and only 15% or so of abortions are done after 12 weeks, so late term abortions are exceedingly rare.

Which is a very long way of saying, rather than debate whether someone is pro choice or not, try and change the conversation to what can be done to help women be able to carry babies to term to either keep or adopt them. And if they are against these things, I think its very fair to question if they are truly pro-life or if they are just anti a woman controlling her body. Rights come with responsibilities, and to say I (general I) should have the 'right' to tell a woman that she must carry a baby to term, but that I don't have responsibility to make those conditions favourable is just silly in the extreme.

Also, there's a really great blog post that turns on its head the whole notion of women 'getting themselves pregnant' and women having unprotected sex - the whole if women don't want babies they should keep their legs closed nonsense. Essentially, women can have as much sex and as many orgasms as we want with no babies as a result. Babies only result from men not controlling their bodies and their ejaculations. So if we're serious about stopping abortions, maybe men should have to get vasectomies or some male birth control pill/apparatus in order for them to be allowed to have sex and that is what should be law. I mean if it's really that critical to avoid abortions, don't let men have ejaculations unless there is a desired baby at the other end.

Interesting breakdown of (some) religious groups: Maybe some should rethink they positions...

Leaked notes between Trump and British leaders prove he’s not really ‘pro-life’
Published 2 days ago on September 7, 2020By Sarah K. Burris

President Donald Trump has long been accused of saying whatever he needs to for the religious-right to support him. But a new report claims that Trump talked about not supporting the abortion ban that anti-choice advocates espouse.

In an exclusive report from The Telegraph, notes from a meeting between the U.S. and British leaders cites Trump being honest about where he really stands.

“He wanted to know where Mrs. May stood. Pro-choice or pro-life?” the article says about Trump’s meeting with former Prime Minister Theresa May.

“‘Imagine some animal with tattoos raping your daughter and then she gets pregnant,’ the president said, according to the notes, graphically outlining the case for allowing abortion,” The Telegraph reported.

“Mr. Trump then pointed at Mike Pence, the U.S. vice president known for being deeply religious. ‘He’s a really tough one on abortion,’ he is quoting saying, before again [asking] Mrs. May for her view. The then-prime minister offered a careful response ‘diplomatically threading the needle’ according to one source familiar with the conversation — before shifting the discussion back to safer ground,” the report said.

It was just four days ago that Trump’s campaign released a letter to anti-choice leaders falsely accusing former Vice President Joe Biden of wanting taxpayer-funded abortions.

“As I seek re-election this November, I need your help in contrasting my bold pro-life leadership with Joe Biden’s abortion extremism,” Trump said in the release.
**
www.rawstory.com/2020/09/leaked-notes-between-trump-and-british-leaders-prove-hes-not-really-pro-life/

I had an abortion when I was a 20 year old university student in the U.K.
My boyfriend and I weren’t financially or mentally ready for parenthood. We also did not want to give up our studies or place the burden of childcare on our parents. I simply did not want it.

However the decision was mine, and remains one of the best I have ever made about my body, my life, my family, and my future.

The procedure was fine. No trauma, no pain, no regret, nothing but relief and gratitude that I lived in a country that respects a woman’s right to choose.

Unfortunately the stigma of abortion and label of ‘baby murderer’ by religious zealots stopped me from sharing my very positive experience with others. That is my only regret. That I didn’t help others navigate the process.

I’ll be 52 this week with 2 kids that were planned and very much loved. I simply cannot imagine being forced to have a child I did not want.

Most anti-abortionists/pro birthers are religious, mostly republican, and look down on single women who couldn’t keep their legs closed and are ‘looking for handouts’. Once the child is born they generally vote against any of their precious tax dollars going towards any programs to help these children.

ETA - you cannot be pro-choice and pro-life. They are opposing views. If you believe a pregnant person should have the choice to terminate a pregnancy, you are pro-choice. If not, you are pro-life.

Then there is the question of whether or not abortion is the only issue that matters (even if there is little chance that it would actually be overturned)? Why does an unborn child mean more than people who are already born (in regards to policies that hurt people)?

That was the basis of the Roe v Wade decision, wasn’t it?

I don't think you can say anything to change their minds. They believe that abortion is killing a child and nobody is okay with killing a child.