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Post by pixiechick on Oct 20, 2021 7:33:44 GMT
Again semantics. Saying that its quite possible the vaccine might not be safe is not any different from saying the vaccine is unsafe. All of the evidence and more than 1 billion doses given show that the vaccine is safe. No, its not quite possible You're right, those 2 things are the same and nothing but semantics. Considering I never said either one of those, it's not the issue that you're creating. One last time... I said "vaccinations for all regardless of need might not be safe." I believe the vaccine is safe, so I would never say it isn't. If you can't understand that, we're not going to get very far in any other discussion. Also, the hypocrisy of your rude, insulting statement is unbelievable. You went after other posters for being rude, but its Ok for you to insult my intelligence and suggest I can't read? I'm perfectly capable of reading your statement which implies the vaccine is unsafe - a bold lie. Lucy was rude to me because I asked a question about something that didn't make sense to me. I was rude to you not when you accused me of saying something I didn't say, I was rude to you after I repeated what I actually said and you changed my actual words and continued to say I said something I absolutely did not say. If you can't stop doing that, we're not going to get very far in discussing anything else. Apples and oranges. Not hypocrisy. |
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Post by mollycoddle on Oct 20, 2021 10:22:01 GMT
Show me one study other than the one from Israel. The faults in that study have already been pointed out. There are studies like the CDC one from Arkansas or Kentucky that show acquired immunity does not offer the same protection. The objection to it is that it hasn't yet been peer reviewed. Where does it show that the studies you cite are peer reviewed? No, the vaccine does not prevent it, but you are less likely to spread it. The vaccine slows the transmission of covid. Where does it say that natural antibodies don't slow the spread? Just showing you that you did say it’s possible the vaccine is not safe. You can argue semantics all you want, but it’s not any different than saying the vaccine is unsafe. Just showing you, that no matter how many times you say I said it, I absolutely NEVER said the VACCINE is unsafe. I said "mandate vaccinations for all regardless of need. That it's quite possible that might not be safe." Read it again. And then if you still can't comprehend it, have someone you trust to be honest with you read it to you until you can comprehend what is being said. If pixiechick answered my question, I can’t find it. Do private businesses have the right to mandate vaccines for their employees as a condition of employment? I believe that they do. I think what medicine you put into your body is between your doctor and you. Your doctor would have more knowledge of your health needs and health issues than your employer. Please do link your multiple legitimate studies that have not been debunked and that show a prior case of COVID confers the equivalent immunity that full vaccination does. Not having been peer reviewed yet, doesn't mean they're debunked. Please link your multiple legitimate infectious disease specialists who don’t feel that everyone who CAN be vaccinated, SHOULD be vaccinated, including those who have already had the disease. Even Fauci couldn't say yes you need the vaccine if you've already been infected, just a couple of weeks ago. If You Had Covid, Do You Need the Vaccine? - We hope to show that there is an urgent need for debate on the issue of vaccinating people who have already recovered from Covid-19.(not chiropractors who are hawking ivermectin or whatever) Extremely lame dismissal of doctors, scientists and epidemiologists. The goal posts have been moved, but not by me. They added in younger ages and NOW it doesn't meet the goal. I've lost track of how many times they moved the goal posts but we're in the dozens and dozens by now. Starting with Fauci: “there’s no reason to be walking around with a mask” and "15 days to slow the spread" Oh lucyg, don’t you know? It’s not for her to do that! You should do that yourself…for some apparent reason that I can’t recall right now 😉 Oh, you mean the one time someone told me their thoughts and when I asked them for links or info on how they came to that opinion, they told me to look it up to figure out what THEY think? Of course, I know you realize that's not possible. Another reason to consider getting a vaccine is that even though you've had covid, you have no idea how many antibodies your body has produced. You could have zilch or it could be plentiful. You don't know unless you're tested. That's true. My original point in this thread was to push back against the idea that if you don't vaccinate, it's only because you're selfish. There are other reasons that have nothing to do with being selfish. But that is not what I asked. Should a private business be able to tell employees that they must get vaccinated or be fired? A private business can kick out people for not wearing shoes or a shirt if a sign is posted. Some restaurants have a dress code. My school system had certain clothing requirements(no open-toed shoes, for example) and we were not allowed to display any political buttons, signs or the like. This question pertains to the rights of private businesses to have requirements for its employees. According to an AMA survey, 96% of doctors have been vaccinated. I did see a notation that *some* people who have certain allergies should discuss getting the vaccine with their doctor, but as far as I can find, it is recommended by the CDC, John’s Hopkins and the Mayo Clinic that the vaccine is safe for the vast majority of folks. Maybe I missed something? It’s certainly possible. ETA: I also feel the need to add a note about the article by AIER that you linked in response to Lucy G. There have been some allegations about just how free-thinking that think tank really is. bylinetimes.com/2020/10/09/climate-science-denial-network-behind-great-barrington-declaration/ |
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Post by aj2hall on Oct 20, 2021 11:37:33 GMT
You keep ignoring the facts that have been stated multiple times in this thread that antibodies from the virus ARE NOT THE SAME as antibodies from the vaccine. Antibodies from the virus might not work against other variants and most likely decline faster than antibodies from the vaccine. In addition, there’s increasing evidence that the transmission rates of people with breakthrough infections are lower than the unvaccinated. www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2021/10/12/1044553048/covid-data-vaccines-breakthrough-infections-transmissionMandating vaccines reduces transmission of the virus. Full stop. You keep ignoring the facts that have been stated multiple times in this thread that antibodies from the virus ARE NOT THE SAME as antibodies from the vaccine. Antibodies from the virus might not work against other variants and most likely decline faster than antibodies from the vaccine. I'll say it again... "It's also been pointed out that there are studies that show otherwise. That people, along with their doctor, should be allowed to make that decision for themselves as opposed to the current authoritarian "do it or else" tactic we have going on." There are doctors and scientists, epidemiologists that are saying it needs to be looked at and discussed BEFORE we mandate vaccinations for all regardless of need. That it's quite possible that might not be safe. If you need the vaccine to be protected, and you have the vaccine, why are you not protected? Your words exactly. I did not misquote them. New sentence - it’s quite possible that might not be safe.If your words were misunderstood, it’s not my fault you were not more clear. Any reasonable person would read that and think you were suggesting the vaccine was not safe. If you want to change what you wrote, fine, but I quoted you exactly. Still waiting for that evidence from epidemiologists, doctors and scientists that acquired immunity is the same as immunity from the vaccine. eta - What is unsafe about giving vaccines to people who already had covid? There is zero evidence that the vaccine is unsafe for people previously infected with covid. |
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Post by hookturnian on Oct 20, 2021 12:30:27 GMT
I am pro-vaccination and pro-vaccine mandates. I was fully vaccinated within 5 weeks of becoming eligible, having taken the first available booking both times. I am also aware that science is not static and that as more data becomes available, we flesh out our understanding. This may mean changes in government advice. This process is ongoing. What we think we know today may well turn out to be incorrect tomorrow. Just this week the Office for National Statistics, a government body in the UK, published a study (not yet peer reviewed) stating that when Delta was dominant in the UK, two doses of either Pfizer-BioNTech or Oxford-Astra Zeneca provided similar levels of protection to that provided by prior natural infection. The study can be found here www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19infectionsurveytechnicalarticleimpactofvaccinationontestingpositiveintheuk/latest If the data holds true, we may need to reconsider vaccine mandates. I recall reading an article somewhere (BBC maybe?) that said the ONS also found that prior infection plus 2 doses provided even better immunity, but I'm not sure if it was the same study. |
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sassyangel
Drama Llama
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Post by sassyangel on Oct 20, 2021 13:18:04 GMT
I am pro-vaccination and pro-vaccine mandates. I was fully vaccinated within 5 weeks of becoming eligible, having taken the first available booking both times. I am also aware that science is not static and that as more data becomes available, we flesh out our understanding. This may mean changes in government advice. This process is ongoing. What we think we know today may well turn out to be incorrect tomorrow. Just this week the Office for National Statistics, a government body in the UK, published a study (not yet peer reviewed) stating that when Delta was dominant in the UK, two doses of either Pfizer-BioNTech or Oxford-Astra Zeneca provided similar levels of protection to that provided by prior natural infection. The study can be found here www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19infectionsurveytechnicalarticleimpactofvaccinationontestingpositiveintheuk/latest If the data holds true, we may need to reconsider vaccine mandates. I recall reading an article somewhere (BBC maybe?) that said the ONS also found that prior infection plus 2 doses provided even better immunity, but I'm not sure if it was the same study. It’s about more than mandates. Allowing for natural immunity, incentivizes people to get infected instead of gaining immunity through vaccination. The major (and not the only) issue with that, is widespread ongoing infection is what is propagating new mutations. It’s why we still find ourselves in this place a year and a half later. |
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Post by MichyM on Oct 20, 2021 18:21:12 GMT
The vaccine mandate worked really well in WA state.
I have the noon news on in the BG. Our statewide vax mandate for ALL state employees went into effect on Monday. Prior to the mandate being announced (I believe it was announced in mid-August) 48% of WA state employees were vaccinated. As of today, 92% of those people are now vaccinated. Amazing, yes?!?
1800 employees quit, were fired, or retired as a result of the mandate. Yes, we are experiencing disruptions as a result, but overall it worked! Hopefully those disruptions will be rectified by the end of the year.
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Oct 20, 2021 19:07:53 GMT
And new hirers won't have a choice, vaccines required.
Now to go to the states that are reconsidering no vaccine mandates.. Zero, zip, period no mandates. Going to be some very sick kids!!
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Post by aj2hall on Oct 20, 2021 20:03:05 GMT
I recognize that the science and data on acquired immunity is changing. But, we still need more information on how to measure that, how long it lasts and the transmissibility of the virus in people with previous infections. Maybe at some point, the CDC will change their recommendation and say that a vaccine is not necessary if you've had covid. However, studies show that hybrid immunity from the vaccine and acquired immunity from having the virus offers the best possible protection. At the moment, the CDC recommendation is to get the vaccine, even if you've already had covid. So, no, having had covid is not a valid excuse to refuse the vaccine.
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Post by aj2hall on Oct 20, 2021 20:07:55 GMT
Good news regarding the vaccines and children - the Biden administration is preparing a plan to roll out the vaccine as soon as it has FDA approval. The vaccine could be cleared in early November. As someone who works in an elementary school, this is excellent news and will hopefully be a game changer. I've lost count of the number of positive cases that we've had already this year. www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/10/20/1047587933/covid-19-children-kids-vaccine-coronavirusThe White House said on Wednesday that it is ready to quickly roll out COVID-19 vaccines for kids ages 5 to 11, if the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine for that age group is authorized by the Food and Drug Administration and recommended by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The administration also will roll out a national public education campaign to inform parents and guardians about the vaccine and solicit questions. U.S. Surgeon General Vivek Murthy said the campaign would help head off one of the barriers to vaccinating both children and adults — misinformation about the drug. "That's why we're making sure that it's trusted messengers with scientific credibility who go out there and talk about these vaccines," Murthy said. "But it is our collective responsibility — whether we're in government, in the media, whether we're individuals — to help prevent the flow and spread of misinformation online." |
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Post by pixiechick on Oct 20, 2021 20:57:11 GMT
The objection to it is that it hasn't yet been peer reviewed. Where does it show that the studies you cite are peer reviewed? Where does it say that natural antibodies don't slow the spread? Just showing you, that no matter how many times you say I said it, I absolutely NEVER said the VACCINE is unsafe. I said "mandate vaccinations for all regardless of need. That it's quite possible that might not be safe." Read it again. And then if you still can't comprehend it, have someone you trust to be honest with you read it to you until you can comprehend what is being said. I think what medicine you put into your body is between your doctor and you. Your doctor would have more knowledge of your health needs and health issues than your employer. Not having been peer reviewed yet, doesn't mean they're debunked. Even Fauci couldn't say yes you need the vaccine if you've already been infected, just a couple of weeks ago. If You Had Covid, Do You Need the Vaccine? - We hope to show that there is an urgent need for debate on the issue of vaccinating people who have already recovered from Covid-19. Extremely lame dismissal of doctors, scientists and epidemiologists. The goal posts have been moved, but not by me. They added in younger ages and NOW it doesn't meet the goal. I've lost track of how many times they moved the goal posts but we're in the dozens and dozens by now. Starting with Fauci: “there’s no reason to be walking around with a mask” and "15 days to slow the spread" Oh, you mean the one time someone told me their thoughts and when I asked them for links or info on how they came to that opinion, they told me to look it up to figure out what THEY think? Of course, I know you realize that's not possible. That's true. My original point in this thread was to push back against the idea that if you don't vaccinate, it's only because you're selfish. There are other reasons that have nothing to do with being selfish. But that is not what I asked. Should a private business be able to tell employees that they must get vaccinated or be fired? A private business can kick out people for not wearing shoes or a shirt if a sign is posted. Some restaurants have a dress code. My school system had certain clothing requirements(no open-toed shoes, for example) and we were not allowed to display any political buttons, signs or the like. This question pertains to the rights of private businesses to have requirements for its employees. According to an AMA survey, 96% of doctors have been vaccinated. I did see a notation that *some* people who have certain allergies should discuss getting the vaccine with their doctor, but as far as I can find, it is recommended by the CDC, John’s Hopkins and the Mayo Clinic that the vaccine is safe for the vast majority of folks. Maybe I missed something? It’s certainly possible. ETA: I also feel the need to add a note about the article by AIER that you linked in response to Lucy G. There have been some allegations about just how free-thinking that think tank really is. bylinetimes.com/2020/10/09/climate-science-denial-network-behind-great-barrington-declaration/But that is not what I asked. Should a private business be able to tell employees that they must get vaccinated or be fired? Except it's not the private businesses that are mandating it, it's the government. |
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Post by aj2hall on Oct 20, 2021 21:00:23 GMT
Thought this was an interesting video on vaccine mandates. Peter Doocy from Fox asks a gotcha question and is speechless when Jen Psaki counters his argument with facts. Regarding police departments and vaccine mandates 1. Covid was the #1 killer of law enforcement officers in 2020 and 2021 2. The numbers of officers that actually quit on the deadline - the Massachusetts state police and Seattle are very small www.youtube.com/watch?v=QU-I0XF4YIU |
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Post by pixiechick on Oct 20, 2021 21:04:23 GMT
I'll say it again... "It's also been pointed out that there are studies that show otherwise. That people, along with their doctor, should be allowed to make that decision for themselves as opposed to the current authoritarian "do it or else" tactic we have going on." There are doctors and scientists, epidemiologists that are saying it needs to be looked at and discussed BEFORE we mandate vaccinations for all regardless of need. That it's quite possible that might not be safe. If you need the vaccine to be protected, and you have the vaccine, why are you not protected? Your words exactly. I did not misquote them. New sentence - it’s quite possible that might not be safe.If your words were misunderstood, it’s not my fault you were not more clear. Any reasonable person would read that and think you were suggesting the vaccine was not safe. If you want to change what you wrote, fine, but I quoted you exactly. Still waiting for that evidence from epidemiologists, doctors and scientists that acquired immunity is the same as immunity from the vaccine. eta - What is unsafe about giving vaccines to people who already had covid? There is zero evidence that the vaccine is unsafe for people previously infected with covid. Your words exactly. I did not misquote them. New sentence - it’s quite possible that might not be safe.A sentence preceded by "vaccinations for all regardless of need." Funny how you keep ignoring the entire statement and leaving out the part that doesn't support your lie about what I actually said. So, yes, you did misquote me. If you want to change what you wrote, fine, but I quoted you exactly. No, you didn't. You LITERALLY changed what I wrote: "vaccinations for all regardless of need. That it's quite possible that might not be safe." into: "it’s possible the vaccine is not safe." |
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Post by aj2hall on Oct 20, 2021 21:06:18 GMT
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Post by bc2ca on Oct 20, 2021 21:10:38 GMT
Except it's not the private businesses that are mandating it, it's the government.  Many private businesses are mandating vaccines for their employees, not just government agencies. From Facebook to Goldman Sachs to Microsoft to Salesforce to Tyson Foods to Disney to Walmart to Morgan Stanley to Google to to Anthem to . . . |
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Post by pixiechick on Oct 20, 2021 21:14:27 GMT
Except it's not the private businesses that are mandating it, it's the government. Many private businesses are mandating vaccines for their employees, not just government agencies. From Facebook to Goldman Sachs to Microsoft to Salesforce to Tyson Foods to Disney to Walmart to Morgan Stanley to Google to to Anthem to . . . It was Biden who imposed a vaccine mandate for businesses with 100 or more employees. |
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Post by sunshine on Oct 20, 2021 21:17:55 GMT
Except it's not the private businesses that are mandating it, it's the government. Many private businesses are mandating vaccines for their employees, not just government agencies.
From Facebook to Goldman Sachs to Microsoft to Salesforce to Tyson Foods to Disney to Walmart to Morgan Stanley to Google to to Anthem to . . . "President Joe Biden on Thursday issued two executive orders mandating vaccines for federal workers and contractors and announced new requirements for large employers and health care providers that he said would affect around 100 million workers, more than two-thirds of the U.S. workforce. "We've been patient, but our patience is wearing thin," Biden said, making a direct appeal to the 80 million people who he said were still unvaccinated. "Your refusal has cost all of us." Biden also announced that he asked the Department of Labor to issue an emergency rule requiring all employers with 100 or more employees to ensure their workforce is fully vaccinated or require any unvaccinated workers to produce a negative Covid test at least once a week. The requirement could carry a $14,000 fine per violation and would affect two-thirds of the country's workforce, a senior administration official said."
Facebook, Goldman Sachs, Microsoft, etc. all fall under the "over 100 employee" government madate.
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Post by mollycoddle on Oct 20, 2021 21:20:03 GMT
But that is not what I asked. Should a private business be able to tell employees that they must get vaccinated or be fired? A private business can kick out people for not wearing shoes or a shirt if a sign is posted. Some restaurants have a dress code. My school system had certain clothing requirements(no open-toed shoes, for example) and we were not allowed to display any political buttons, signs or the like. This question pertains to the rights of private businesses to have requirements for its employees. According to an AMA survey, 96% of doctors have been vaccinated. I did see a notation that *some* people who have certain allergies should discuss getting the vaccine with their doctor, but as far as I can find, it is recommended by the CDC, John’s Hopkins and the Mayo Clinic that the vaccine is safe for the vast majority of folks. Maybe I missed something? It’s certainly possible. ETA: I also feel the need to add a note about the article by AIER that you linked in response to Lucy G. There have been some allegations about just how free-thinking that think tank really is. bylinetimes.com/2020/10/09/climate-science-denial-network-behind-great-barrington-declaration/But that is not what I asked. Should a private business be able to tell employees that they must get vaccinated or be fired? Except it's not the private businesses that are mandating it, it's the government. For private sector employers with more than 100 employees. But that, again, is not my question. I am asking a hypothetical question. Do you think that private sector employers should be able to mandate Covid vaccines? |
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Post by bc2ca on Oct 20, 2021 21:25:29 GMT
It was Biden who imposed a vaccine mandate for businesses with 100 or more employees. Everyone of the employers I listed announced their mandates months BEFORE Biden imposed a mandate.  One could say Biden was following the lead of major employers.  |
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Post by sunshine on Oct 20, 2021 21:44:05 GMT
It was Biden who imposed a vaccine mandate for businesses with 100 or more employees. Everyone of the employers I listed announced their mandates months BEFORE Biden imposed a mandate. One could say Biden was following the lead of major employers. That may be, but not all employers did and joe mandated any employer with over 100 employees to require vaccines or testing, which includes private businesses. |
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Post by sunshine on Oct 20, 2021 21:44:19 GMT
It was Biden who imposed a vaccine mandate for businesses with 100 or more employees. Everyone of the employers I listed announced their mandates months BEFORE Biden imposed a mandate. One could say Biden was following the lead of major employers. That may be, but not all employers did and joe mandated any employer with over 100 employees to require vaccines or testing, which includes private businesses. |
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Post by aj2hall on Oct 20, 2021 21:57:01 GMT
Many private businesses are mandating vaccines for their employees, not just government agencies. From Facebook to Goldman Sachs to Microsoft to Salesforce to Tyson Foods to Disney to Walmart to Morgan Stanley to Google to to Anthem to . . . It was Biden who imposed a vaccine mandate for businesses with 100 or more employees. Many companies like Apple, Google, Facebook, United Airlines and Tyson had vaccine requirements for their employees before the Biden policy which has not even taken effect yet. Employees have 50-90 days after the department of Labor issues the rule www.whitehouse.gov/covidplan/ |
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Post by aj2hall on Oct 20, 2021 22:08:37 GMT
More reasons why acquired immunity is not the same as immunity from the vaccine. The article also points out faults with the Israeli study which so far, has been the only one to suggest acquired immunity is sufficient. www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/09/infection-immunity-covid-19-vaccines/620099/a few excerpts: But Fauci, as well as most of the other experts I talked with, cautioned against overinterpreting the results of a single study, especially one documenting only a snapshot in time. Even taken at face value, the “better” defenses offered by post-infection immunity come at a massive potential cost, said Goel, of the University of Pennsylvania. Those who surface from these encounters seemingly unscathed might not have much immunity to show for it, either. Several studies have shown that a decent percentage of infected people might not produce detectable levels of antibodies, for the simple reason that “not all infections are the same,” At the other end of the spectrum, very severe disease can so traumatize the immune system that it fails to recollect the threat it’s fighting publichealth.jhu.edu/2021/why-covid-19-vaccines-offer-better-protection-than-infection |
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sassyangel
Drama Llama
Posts: 7,456
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Post by sassyangel on Oct 20, 2021 22:16:15 GMT
Many private businesses are mandating vaccines for their employees, not just government agencies.
From Facebook to Goldman Sachs to Microsoft to Salesforce to Tyson Foods to Disney to Walmart to Morgan Stanley to Google to to Anthem to . . . "President Joe Biden on Thursday issued two executive orders mandating vaccines for federal workers and contractors and announced new requirements for large employers and health care providers that he said would affect around 100 million workers, more than two-thirds of the U.S. workforce. "We've been patient, but our patience is wearing thin," Biden said, making a direct appeal to the 80 million people who he said were still unvaccinated. "Your refusal has cost all of us." Biden also announced that he asked the Department of Labor to issue an emergency rule requiring all employers with 100 or more employees to ensure their workforce is fully vaccinated or require any unvaccinated workers to produce a negative Covid test at least once a week. The requirement could carry a $14,000 fine per violation and would affect two-thirds of the country's workforce, a senior administration official said."
Facebook, Goldman Sachs, Microsoft, etc. all fall under the "over 100 employee" government madate.
A lot of them implemented their mandates *before* even the federal government did. My company did. |
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Oct 20, 2021 22:27:31 GMT
Yes, private businesses can mandate their employees be vaccinated.
For that matter in many states businesses can let go or fire an employee with or without a reason. I think that is called 'at will'
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Oct 20, 2021 23:46:07 GMT
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Post by aj2hall on Oct 21, 2021 3:21:50 GMT
I think I found a possible source of pixiechick's insistence that acquired immunity should be an acceptable alternative to the covid vaccine. Almost point for point and even word for word. Without a lot of scientific evidence to back it up. I'm still curious about all of these epidemiologists, scientists and doctors that she keeps referring to but never providing links for. www.wsj.com/articles/some-workers-want-covid-19-recovery-accepted-as-evidence-of-immunity-11634648215The conversation needs to be about immune versus nonimmune instead of vaccinated or non-vaccinated,” said Sen. Roger Marshall (R., Kan.) “If you have the antibodies and natural immunity, there’s no reason to enforce the mandate for those people,” said Mr. Crawford, a cancer survivor who said he’s vaccinated. He said he believed vaccines should be a choice between doctor and patient. “That these policies ignore natural immunity already suggests an unscientific approach to their formation,” Mr. Isaac said in a text message. “When we use vaccination as a hammer and say it’s the only way to be protected, it has bad outcomes.” |
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Post by hookturnian on Oct 21, 2021 6:34:49 GMT
I am pro-vaccination and pro-vaccine mandates. I was fully vaccinated within 5 weeks of becoming eligible, having taken the first available booking both times. I am also aware that science is not static and that as more data becomes available, we flesh out our understanding. This may mean changes in government advice. This process is ongoing. What we think we know today may well turn out to be incorrect tomorrow. Just this week the Office for National Statistics, a government body in the UK, published a study (not yet peer reviewed) stating that when Delta was dominant in the UK, two doses of either Pfizer-BioNTech or Oxford-Astra Zeneca provided similar levels of protection to that provided by prior natural infection. The study can be found here www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19infectionsurveytechnicalarticleimpactofvaccinationontestingpositiveintheuk/latest If the data holds true, we may need to reconsider vaccine mandates. I recall reading an article somewhere (BBC maybe?) that said the ONS also found that prior infection plus 2 doses provided even better immunity, but I'm not sure if it was the same study. It’s about more than mandates. Allowing for natural immunity, incentivizes people to get infected instead of gaining immunity through vaccination. The major (and not the only) issue with that, is widespread ongoing infection is what is propagating new mutations. It’s why we still find ourselves in this place a year and a half later. Vaccine mandates make sense in naïve populations like Australia and New Zealand. But do they make sense now in places where large swathes of the population have already had covid. The last seroprevalence data I saw was that >80% of people in the US had antibodies either through vaccines or prior infection. The figure for the UK was >90%. If the goal is to prevent mutations where would vaccines do the most good? Vaccinating someone in one of these countries who has already had covid and could take a test to prove they have antibodies, just so you can tick a box? Or vaccinating one of the 97.2% of people in low income countries who is yet to receive a first dose of the vaccine? |
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Post by hookturnian on Oct 21, 2021 6:54:28 GMT
I recognize that the science and data on acquired immunity is changing. But, we still need more information on how to measure that, how long it lasts and the transmissibility of the virus in people with previous infections. Maybe at some point, the CDC will change their recommendation and say that a vaccine is not necessary if you've had covid. However, studies show that hybrid immunity from the vaccine and acquired immunity from having the virus offers the best possible protection. At the moment, the CDC recommendation is to get the vaccine, even if you've already had covid. So, no, having had covid is not a valid excuse to refuse the vaccine. People have been surviving covid for longer than the vaccines have been available. We should be able to study all of that quite easily. If the findings of the ONS study is borne out by other studies and natural immunity is just as good as that from a vaccine, why should someone who has natural immunity (and could prove it with an antibody test) be forced to take two doses of vaccine simply to satisfy a vaccine requirement? The fact that they would have even better immunity is not relevant if they pose as much risk to the community as someone who had the vaccine. Here's another hypothetical for you: Assume natural immunity is as good as that from vaccines. The vaccines advisory authorities in your country recommend that,for safety reasons, children aged 5-11 receive only one dose of the vaccine. This is not outside the realm of possibility. It's the current advice for younger teens in the UK. Schools require children aged 5-11 to be vaccinated. Should a child who has already had covid and could demonstrate that they have antibodies be required to get the vaccine? ETA: My hypothetical is in regard to the article you cited previously which raised the possibility of over-boosting in younger individuals. |
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Post by aj2hall on Oct 21, 2021 11:21:43 GMT
I recognize that the science and data on acquired immunity is changing. But, we still need more information on how to measure that, how long it lasts and the transmissibility of the virus in people with previous infections. Maybe at some point, the CDC will change their recommendation and say that a vaccine is not necessary if you've had covid. However, studies show that hybrid immunity from the vaccine and acquired immunity from having the virus offers the best possible protection. At the moment, the CDC recommendation is to get the vaccine, even if you've already had covid. So, no, having had covid is not a valid excuse to refuse the vaccine. People have been surviving covid for longer than the vaccines have been available. We should be able to study all of that quite easily. If the findings of the ONS study is borne out by other studies and natural immunity is just as good as that from a vaccine, why should someone who has natural immunity (and could prove it with an antibody test) be forced to take two doses of vaccine simply to satisfy a vaccine requirement? The fact that they would have even better immunity is not relevant if they pose as much risk to the community as someone who had the vaccine. Here's another hypothetical for you: Assume natural immunity is as good as that from vaccines. The vaccines advisory authorities in your country recommend that,for safety reasons, children aged 5-11 receive only one dose of the vaccine. This is not outside the realm of possibility. It's the current advice for younger teens in the UK. Schools require children aged 5-11 to be vaccinated. Should a child who has already had covid and could demonstrate that they have antibodies be required to get the vaccine? ETA: My hypothetical is in regard to the article you cited previously which raised the possibility of over-boosting in younger individuals. I agree there’s some uncertainty about the number of shots needed if you had covid, especially in children. I also think there’s a great need to vaccinate the rest of the world, especially low income countries. The US is doing a lot to donate $ and vaccines. The Biden administration has said we can do boosters and help the rest of the world at the same time. It’s not an either/or situation. Could we be doing more? Probably. |
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sassyangel
Drama Llama
Posts: 7,456
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Post by sassyangel on Oct 21, 2021 21:26:40 GMT
It’s about more than mandates. Allowing for natural immunity, incentivizes people to get infected instead of gaining immunity through vaccination. The major (and not the only) issue with that, is widespread ongoing infection is what is propagating new mutations. It’s why we still find ourselves in this place a year and a half later. Vaccine mandates make sense in naïve populations like Australia and New Zealand. But do they make sense now in places where large swathes of the population have already had covid. The last seroprevalence data I saw was that >80% of people in the US had antibodies either through vaccines or prior infection. The figure for the UK was >90%. If the goal is to prevent mutations where would vaccines do the most good? Vaccinating someone in one of these countries who has already had covid and could take a test to prove they have antibodies, just so you can tick a box? Or vaccinating one of the 97.2% of people in low income countries who is yet to receive a first dose of the vaccine? I honestly couldn’t say. Not saying this isn’t something they might be able to be done in future like with MMR, but it seems too new to effectively roll the dice with herd immunity by infection, when you don’t really know what parameters constitute effective immunity, at this point. I’d say given the infection rate in Britain reasonably large swatches of the British have had Covid, and thus have some degree of immunity by infection. And it has a 67.6% fully vaccinated population. So, this is interesting given both of those. www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/10/21/the-delta-variant-has-a-mutation-what-we-know-so-far.htmlwww.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-reports-cases-more-contagious-covid-19-variant-reports-2021-10-21/nypost.com/2021/10/20/covid-19-new-strain-of-delta-variant-detected-in-the-us/amp/ |
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