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Post by dizzycheermom on Jan 1, 2022 1:34:14 GMT
This happened in Ohio which has a castle doctrine law. But in order to prevail, the homeowner had to have had a “reasonable belief” that he or his family was in “immediate danger of either death or serious harm.” You also cannot use deadly force to protect your property from theft unless the burglar is armed. The teen just entered through the garage and set off the alarm, that’s all. According to the police detective, the teen, Janae, had disabled the house alarm a couple hours earlier so she could sneak out of the house. The father woke up in the middle of the night and realized the alarm was disabled and the front door was partially open. So he closed the door and reset the alarm. When Janae was sneaking back in through the garage (because the front door was already locked), she set off the alarm. If the father had just yelled out at the shadowy figure in the garage, Janae could have just said, “It’s me, dad” and it would just have been a case of a teen maybe being grounded for sneaking out. This was not a self-defense scenario because there was no indication of immediate death or harm. There is not an iota of a justification for lethal force here. This will forever haunt the parents. What she said 👆🏻👆🏻 |
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Post by dizzycheermom on Jan 1, 2022 1:56:24 GMT
In my state you can not just shoot a person for breaking into your house. You need to show a reason why you feared for your life. If he couldn’t see the person well enough to see that it was his daughter then he didn’t see the person well enough to have a cause for self defense. Trespassing, even breaking & entering are not of themselves cause to kill in self defense. If he could not see her to tell if it was his daughter then he could not see her well enough to require killing in self defense. In fact he exhibited indifference to human life. ( manslaughter at the very least ) He should be charged no one in his home is safe if this is how he “responsibly” uses a gun It truly terrifies and repulses me that there is a small majority of states where this is true. I absolutely believe with every fiber of my being that if someone breaks into your house you have the legal and moral right to shoot to kill. I don’t understand how anyone could think that’s a bad thing. You should always have the right to protect your household (and I personally think that should extend to your property and your business). I would not want to live in a state without those protections. You said “if someone breaks into your house you have the legal and moral right to shoot to kill.” Again, no one broke into his house. That is why he should have charges filed against him. Would really love to see you answer lesley’s scenario. What if your child was at a friend’s house and they got up late for a snack, dad hears noises and kills your child who is a guest? If you are ok with the scenario in the OP then you would not think this would be against the law. |
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Jan 1, 2022 2:18:05 GMT
How about yell, get out, I am armed!
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Post by tealpaperowl on Jan 1, 2022 2:31:56 GMT
So sad. That poor mother. Lost her daughter... and has to accept her husband killed her. I can't even imagine.
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Jan 1, 2022 2:36:23 GMT
Those “good guys with guns”…
What a tragedy.
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Jan 1, 2022 16:03:25 GMT
hookturnian what is the gun culture like in SA? Are guns easily accessed? Lots of people have guns. You need to take an exam on the gun laws on when you can shoot, responsible gun ownership etc. Once you pass your exam you can apply for a gun licence, and once you have that you can purchase guns, which are registered. You have to renew your licence every few years. There are also a lot of illegal weapons, including AK47s. This is a holdover from apartheid times, when there were weapons caches hidden around the country. A lot of people also received military training of some sort, whether for or against the apartheid regime. South Africa had conscription until the early 90s, so just about every white man over the age of 50 would have served at least 2 years in the army. Many would have combat experience, domestic and abroad. Unfortunately, the Jack ass republicans in Ohio did away with all that this last month. The Governor just signed into legislation that people no longer have to do any of those things in order to obtain or carry guns. |
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Jan 1, 2022 16:09:13 GMT
Shocking that he felt it was his right to shoot another human. He heard noises in his garage, and checked the alarm. But no checking on his family. And if someone was in the garage why does that equal death in his head. I guess being from another country it leaves me dumbfounded that you would feel that an unidentified person in the garage means you are in threat. Why did he not lock the internal door and call the police. Which would be my first option, then grab my family and either leave the property by another door or just make are we were in another part of the house. He had no indication that his daughter was armed or a threat to life. Being in a garage doe not mean you are a killer. We have had attempted break ins before. Scary and unsafe feeling, but not worth killing someone over. Because people with guns are scared of other people having guns. Unfortunately, they don't seem to realize that to others, THEY are the ones that are the threat. And it's a vicious cycle. It’s getting to be like vax vs anti vaxx… They’re eliminating their own population…anti-vaxx are dying at a much larger rate that those who are vaxxed because “freedom, ‘mErica, my rights” Now gun owners are taking out their own for the same “freedom, ‘mErica, my rights” |
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Post by coaliesquirrel on Jan 1, 2022 17:18:55 GMT
I absolutely think this man was irresponsible and wrong to just shoot, and maybe even more so for not checking on his family when he found the door unlocked and open. But to play devils advocate, how do you know someone breaking in is only intending to rob you and doesn’t mean you harm? He broke into the garage but many people don’t have a lock on the door between the house and garage so this burglar is essentially inside your house (unless it was a detached garage). I had a prowler recently while I was home and even though he was most likely going to steal from me I can tell you if he had gotten inside I would have done anything I could to hurt and incapacitate him rather than risk getting killed or raped. Especially with family sleeping upstairs. I am sorry to hear of your recent experience, but glad no one lost their life as a result! There are lots of things that could have been done. - If you're not comfortable with the risk of an unlocked/weak door between the garage and home, don't have an attached garage. That's why ours is detached. - I can't believe I need to say this, but how about locking the door? If you don't have a lock there, get one. If the one there isn't strong enough for your taste, get another one - either instead of or in addition to whatever's already there. If you have a weaker interior-style door, get a stronger, outside door. - You can call 911 (or your alarm company can) and for most people, get help on the way reasonably quickly while you gather your loved ones and either retreat to a safer area (safe room, anywhere farther away from where you think people are entering to allow more time for help to arrive) or escape outside to safety. It's not a zombie invasion, so you can go outside and get away from the scene to allow law enforcement to do their jobs without worrying that they can't tell who the good vs. bad guys are. - You can wait to see if they even enter the home at all or just take the goods from the garage. Again, I would suggest corralling your family if applicable and getting everyone as far away as possible from where you think someone's trying to get in. - If you have a camera system, you could have it aimed at the door between the garage from either side so you can see from your cell phone if they seem interested in your stuff or just in getting all the way in. As a bonus, you can see the people well enough to determine whether or not they are your loved ones. All of these things are fairly cheap and without risk of death due to failure to identify a supposed intruder, not to mention the increased risk of death by suicide or accident due to having a gun in the house at all. Done together and with prior planning, they can help you feel safer without putting money in gun companies' pockets or buying into a culture of generally fearing others. You don't need to know what someone else is thinking because you already know what you have done and will do about it, and you don't need to worry that you or someone else with your gun will kill someone unnecessarily or unintended. |
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uksue
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,546 
Location: London
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Post by uksue on Jan 1, 2022 17:42:26 GMT
Why should charges be filed? The man meets all the requirements of self defense. He genuinely believed someone was breaking into his house. The fact that he was mistaken makes it a tragedy, not a crime. Seriously? I’m speechless 😳 |
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uksue
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,546
Location: London
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Post by uksue on Jan 1, 2022 17:46:12 GMT
We are “armed” with a can of wasp spray in our bedroom. If sprayed in someone’s face it will incapacitate them from 20+ feet away but wouldn’t kill them. Yes! I learned this on a YouTube video and thought it was a good alternative . I no longer have a bedroom since all my kids moved home and I sleep next to pretty useless patio doors. I wanted something next to my bed ‘just in case’ and also have a very loud alarm on the door should it be opened . |
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uksue
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 2,546
Location: London
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Post by uksue on Jan 1, 2022 17:52:17 GMT
Why should charges be filed? The man meets all the requirements of self defense. He genuinely believed someone was breaking into his house. The fact that he was mistaken makes it a tragedy, not a crime. So if If my daughter gets up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom, we can shoot her because I wake up and think there is an intruder in the house? It’s the defence Oscar Pistorius tried- not that it worked for him . |
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Jan 1, 2022 17:54:36 GMT
This is from one of the lead investigators on this specific case—
“In any case, if you are the one pulling the trigger on a gun it is really important to know what your target is,” he said.
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Post by katlady on Jan 1, 2022 17:56:29 GMT
- I can't believe I need to say this, but how about locking the door? If you don't have a lock there, get one. If the one there isn't strong enough for your taste, get another one - either instead of or in addition to whatever's already there. If you have a weaker interior-style door, get a stronger, outside door. I was surprised to read that people don't have a lock on the door from the garage to the house. That is one of the easiest places for someone to break into your house if they get into your garage. We have not only have a lock, but also a security screen on that door and the door that leads outside. The security screens may seem like overkill, but it does serve a secondary purpose. We can open those doors and not get any bugs into the house. Also keeps the dog from wandering out. |
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Post by Crack-a-lackin on Jan 1, 2022 18:38:10 GMT
- I can't believe I need to say this, but how about locking the door? If you don't have a lock there, get one. If the one there isn't strong enough for your taste, get another one - either instead of or in addition to whatever's already there. If you have a weaker interior-style door, get a stronger, outside door. I was surprised to read that people don't have a lock on the door from the garage to the house. That is one of the easiest places for someone to break into your house if they get into your garage. We have not only have a lock, but also a security screen on that door and the door that leads outside. The security screens may seem like overkill, but it does serve a secondary purpose. We can open those doors and not get any bugs into the house. Also keeps the dog from wandering out. When I moved here I was surprised there wasn’t a lock on the door to the garage, I had to add one. After talking with friends in the area it seemed to be pretty common. This is your typical suburban neighborhood (“cookie cutter” houses) with attached garages with steel doors between the garage and house (fire code requirement). |
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Post by katlady on Jan 1, 2022 18:42:24 GMT
This is your typical suburban neighborhood (“cookie cutter” houses) with attached garages with steel doors between the garage and house (fire code requirement). That is our house too, and the one before, and they all came with locks, and all the locks are keyed the same. Maybe it is a regional thing. |
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Post by Skellinton on Jan 1, 2022 19:03:09 GMT
This is your typical suburban neighborhood (“cookie cutter” houses) with attached garages with steel doors between the garage and house (fire code requirement). That is our house too, and the one before, and they all came with locks, and all the locks are keyed the same. Maybe it is a regional thing. Ours are locked and came that way with our very basic new build/cookie cutter house. If it had not been a lock door you can bet my husband would have changed that first day we moved in. |
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Post by Crack-a-lackin on Jan 1, 2022 19:12:21 GMT
This is your typical suburban neighborhood (“cookie cutter” houses) with attached garages with steel doors between the garage and house (fire code requirement). That is our house too, and the one before, and they all came with locks, and all the locks are keyed the same. Maybe it is a regional thing. I doubt it’s regional, probably just the specific developers of these huge complexes in the 90s didn’t include them so homeowners added their own. |
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Post by maryland on Jan 1, 2022 21:40:12 GMT
So sad. That poor mother. Lost her daughter... and has to accept her husband killed her. I can't even imagine. I feel so bad for the mom too, and any siblings. |
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Post by AussieMeg on Jan 1, 2022 23:20:34 GMT
If I had been stupid / reckless enough to kill my daughter like this, I would surely have to turn the gun on myself, because I would not be able to live with the pain and guilt.
But luckily it would never happen because we don't have guns here.
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twinsmomfla99
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,118
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Post by twinsmomfla99 on Jan 2, 2022 0:05:55 GMT
Why should charges be filed? The man meets all the requirements of self defense. He genuinely believed someone was breaking into his house. The fact that he was mistaken makes it a tragedy, not a crime. Genuine belief is not sufficient. That belief also has to be reasonable. From Find Law: Sometimes a person may have a genuine fear of imminent physical harm that is objectively unreasonable. If the person uses force to defend themselves from the perceived threat, the situation is known as “imperfect self-defense.” Imperfect self-defense does not excuse a person from the crime of using violence, but it can lessen the charges and penalties involved. Not every state recognizes imperfect self-defense, however.In this case, is it reasonable to assume that the person in the garage is an intruder who intends harm when you have not taken any steps to determine if they are another occupant of the house? I don't think so, especially since the father knew about the disabled alarm earlier and did nothing to determine why it was disabled and whether all family members were accounted for. If charges are filed, he will have a chance to raise self-defense in court. However, when it is not a clear-cut case of self-defense, it is more than reasonable to file charges and let the court sort it out. |
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Post by papercrafteradvocate on Jan 2, 2022 2:10:38 GMT
- I can't believe I need to say this, but how about locking the door? If you don't have a lock there, get one. If the one there isn't strong enough for your taste, get another one - either instead of or in addition to whatever's already there. If you have a weaker interior-style door, get a stronger, outside door. I was surprised to read that people don't have a lock on the door from the garage to the house. That is one of the easiest places for someone to break into your house if they get into your garage. We have not only have a lock, but also a security screen on that door and the door that leads outside. The security screens may seem like overkill, but it does serve a secondary purpose. We can open those doors and not get any bugs into the house. Also keeps the dog from wandering out. Not only do we have locks on the man doors to the garage, but it’s code that those doors must have a fire safety closure mechanism (where it shuts automatically). |
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pilcas
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,237
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Post by pilcas on Jan 2, 2022 14:44:57 GMT
I have no idea where these people are living but I live in NYC which is considered a large and dangerous city. If I heard a noise in the night my first thought would be one of my kids got up for whatever reason, not that an intruder broke into my house in the middle of the night when everyone is in the house.
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pilcas
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,237
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Post by pilcas on Jan 2, 2022 14:45:53 GMT
I have no idea where these people are living but I live in NYC which is considered a large and dangerous city. If I heard a noise in the night my first thought would be one of my kids got up for whatever reason, not that an intruder broke into my house in the middle of the night when everyone is in the house.
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