peppermintpatty
Pearl Clutcher
Refupea #1345
Posts: 3,990 
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Post by peppermintpatty on Jan 26, 2022 13:15:03 GMT
I personally don’t feel comfortable with harsh views ,judgement or punishment for people who choose not to be vaccinated . I do feel however that other precautions against Covid like good quality masks and shielding etc are essential . Broadening things slightly , I came across this recent article from the Atlantic about the subject called “It is a terrible idea to deny medical care to unvaccinated people” www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2022/01/unvaccinated-medical-care-hospitals-omicron/621299/ Why not? These people knowingly choose to be a drain on the medical system, insurance companies, etc. just to prove a point. That is all they are doing, taking a stand on something that they believe is the incredibly misguided truth. If you don't follow the procedure to ensure a good outcome, the hospital has no reason to give it to you. They give him the heart, he leaves the hospital or catches Covid in the hospital and then dies. That heart is no longer viable and no one else could use it. If you choose to make the decision to not get the vaccine, you are choosing to live with the consequences. There will be more and more of them in the future. |
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Jan 26, 2022 13:23:25 GMT
You do know that they put tracking devices in the organs, right? Wow, really? I did not know that!! |
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frankiegirl
Full Member
Posts: 184
Dec 22, 2020 12:42:01 GMT
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Post by frankiegirl on Jan 26, 2022 13:26:39 GMT
Wonder if he would be ok if the donor was vaccinated? Would that go against his principles? (Not that he would ever know that info).
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Post by mollycoddle on Jan 26, 2022 13:29:55 GMT
The title of this thread is misleading. He wasn't denied a transplant. He turned the offer down because he didn't like the conditions he had to agree to that would not jeopardize the success of the transplant. It's no different to all the medication he will have to take post transplant such as the anti rejection drugs that he will have to take for the rest of his life. I would be pretty mad if I was the family of the donor if the hospital had gone ahead with it. I really don't understand the mentality of people like him. How awful for his wife and children to know that he didn't care enough to stay alive for them. Maybe his wife feels the same way but his children surely must be too young to know the consequences now, but they sure will do when they grow up. Exactly. He refused to follow transplant protocols, and so was removed from the list. It’s sad, but he made his choice. |
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Post by Merge on Jan 26, 2022 13:35:18 GMT
I personally don’t feel comfortable with harsh views ,judgement or punishment for people who choose not to be vaccinated . I do feel however that other precautions against Covid like good quality masks and shielding etc are essential . Broadening things slightly , I came across this recent article from the Atlantic about the subject called “It is a terrible idea to deny medical care to unvaccinated people” www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2022/01/unvaccinated-medical-care-hospitals-omicron/621299/ From the article: “ We don’t use the medical-care system as a way of meting out justice. We don’t use it to punish people for their social choices.” The matter “is pretty cut-and-dry,” Sara Murray, a hospitalist at UC San Francisco, added. “We have an ethical obligation to provide care for people regardless of the choices they made, and that stands true for our unvaccinated patients.”Read this again. WE DON'T USE THE MEDICAL CARE SYSTEM AS A WAY OF METING OUT JUSTICE. That’s not what this is. My SIL was recently required to stop smoking and lose 40 lbs before the surgeon would do the back surgery she needed - not to punish her for being fat, but because smoking and being overweight are associated with poor outcomes for whatever the surgery was. Heck, FIL had to stop smoking before they would do the surgery to remove a tumor from his lung caused by smoking. Again, not punishment - just seeking a good outcome. This has nothing to do with meting out justice. It’s a matter of best medical practice. |
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Post by jeremysgirl on Jan 26, 2022 13:40:48 GMT
My brother needed a kidney and he was a former drug user. He had spent two years in prison and came out and his kidneys failed within a year of release. So he had almost 3 years clean. My sister was his donor and they still made him wait two years and test monthly for illegal drug use before they would allow the transplant to go forward. Because his past drug use made him a risk.
Post kidney, he did abuse prescription drugs and that ended up being his cause of death two years after the kidney so apparently, he was still a risk. So my sister lost her kidney and my brother died two years later because he still wasn't able to escape the drug use, he just changed his drug of choice. My sister still has mixed feelings about giving that kidney, even though the hospital did their due diligence.
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Nink
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 4,956
Location: North Idaho
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Post by Nink on Jan 26, 2022 13:41:56 GMT
We have a guy at church who is currently waiting for a kidney transplant. We had another friend who needed, and received, a double lung transplant, my sister was in charge of the fundraising at church to help them both.
There is a laundry list of “rules” they need to meet to even be considered, I remember among those (and it was pre-Covid when this all started) was they had to get a crap ton of vaccines.
I saw an interview with this guy and he doesn’t want the vaccine because “you can’t just make a vaccine in months, it takes years”, therefore he doesn’t trust it. Totally his choice, but with that choice comes consequences and this is just one of them.
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Post by Merge on Jan 26, 2022 13:42:11 GMT
I was thinking more broadly of people being fined financially as punishment for not taking the vaccine which is already happening in several countries. For some the fines are regular and continual . Whilst I am pro-vaccine for those who are able - I just don’t like it being mandated in some countries. There have been some other threads here where people have had zero compassion for those who have died unvaccinated . I have been shocked . Like other people , we as a family are clinically vulnerable due to heart and lung problems and been prisoners in our own home for 2 years only leaving for hospital visits and one drive locally. I want this to end as much as anybody else and unfortunately in the UK it is set to get even worse with the lifting of restrictions creating more risk for us. I don’t want to lose my humanity on top of everything else. I don’t think we’ve lost our humanity necessarily. This is a place for many of us to vent our frustrations, and many of us are frustrated with the additional burden the unvaccinated are putting on the rest of us. If we didn’t have compassion for those who die from this disease unvaccinated, why would we care that so many ARE dying? Wouldn’t the less human response be to just figure none of this has anything to do with us, so let people do what they want? That seems to be what the anti-vaxxers want - for all of us to just leave them to their devices. But we persist in not wanting them to die anyway. We persist in caring about their deaths and the enormous burden they place on healthcare workers (also human). We persist in that despite being told unequivocally by the unvaccinated to F off. That’s not losing our humanity. That’s refusing to lose it. |
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Post by dillydally on Jan 26, 2022 13:44:21 GMT
As someone with continuing heart issues from my bout with covid in Dec 2020, I can fully understand why the vaccine would be required for a heart transplant.
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Post by Merge on Jan 26, 2022 13:45:59 GMT
We have a guy at church who is currently waiting for a kidney transplant. We had another friend who needed, and received, a double lung transplant, my sister was in charge of the fundraising at church to help them both. There is a laundry list of “rules” they need to meet to even be considered, I remember among those (and it was pre-Covid when this all started) was they had to get a crap ton of vaccines. I saw an interview with this guy and he doesn’t want the vaccine because “you can’t just make a vaccine in months, it takes years”, therefore he doesn’t trust it. Totally his choice, but with that choice comes consequences and this is just one of them. His choice, but also a choice made in error. mRNA technology has been studied since the 90s. Adapting it for this particular need was the end game of a very long process. Is it better to let guys like that wallow in misinformation, or do we have a duty to keep trying to get through to them? It seems to me that if medicine sets aside best practices because of someone’s misguided (and politically guided) beliefs, than would be a form of malpractice in itself. |
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Post by jeremysgirl on Jan 26, 2022 13:46:21 GMT
That’s not losing our humanity. That’s refusing to lose it. Applause. Exactly. I know for me, I am stung by what are probably unnecessary deaths around me. |
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Post by mollycoddle on Jan 26, 2022 13:50:02 GMT
My brother needed a kidney and he was a former drug user. He had spent two years in prison and came out and his kidneys failed within a year of release. So he had almost 3 years clean. My sister was his donor and they still made him wait two years and test monthly for illegal drug use before they would allow the transplant to go forward. Because his past drug use made him a risk. Post kidney, he did abuse prescription drugs and that ended up being his cause of death two years after the kidney so apparently, he was still a risk. So my sister lost her kidney and my brother died two years later because he still wasn't able to escape the drug use, he just changed his drug of choice. My sister still has mixed feelings about giving that kidney, even though the hospital did their due diligence. Oh, how sad. I’m sorry for your loss. |
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Post by gar on Jan 26, 2022 13:51:25 GMT
His choice, but also a choice made in error. mRNA technology has been studied since the 90s. Adapting it for this particular need was the end game of a very long process. many people seem to have completely lost sight of, ignored or forgotten this. So many unnecessary deaths and suffering  |
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Post by mikklynn on Jan 26, 2022 14:07:13 GMT
I don’t like the title here or in the article. He is t being denied, he is removing himself from the opportunity to be considered. He isn’t the victim. When my FIL was getting his transplant he couldn’t even go more than 30min in any direction from his hospital either. There are a lot of rules to get a transplant. You are absolutely correct! He removed himself from consideration. |
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sassyangel
Drama Llama
Posts: 7,456
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Post by sassyangel on Jan 26, 2022 14:10:46 GMT
I was thinking more broadly of people being fined financially as punishment for not taking the vaccine which is already happening in several countries. For some the fines are regular and continual . Whilst I am pro-vaccine for those who are able - I just don’t like it being mandated in some countries. There have been some other threads here where people have had zero compassion for those who have died unvaccinated . I have been shocked . Like other people , we as a family are clinically vulnerable due to heart and lung problems and been prisoners in our own home for 2 years only leaving for hospital visits and one drive locally. I want this to end as much as anybody else and unfortunately in the UK it is set to get even worse with the lifting of restrictions creating more risk for us. I don’t want to lose my humanity on top of everything else. I don’t think we’ve lost our humanity necessarily. This is a place for many of us to vent our frustrations, and many of us are frustrated with the additional burden the unvaccinated are putting on the rest of us. If we didn’t have compassion for those who die from this disease unvaccinated, why would we care that so many ARE dying? Wouldn’t the less human response be to just figure none of this has anything to do with us, so let people do what they want? That seems to be what the anti-vaxxers want - for all of us to just leave them to their devices. But we persist in not wanting them to die anyway. We persist in caring about their deaths and the enormous burden they place on healthcare workers (also human). We persist in that despite being told unequivocally by the unvaccinated to F off. That’s not losing our humanity. That’s refusing to lose it. In the last 7 days 15,113 have died of Covid in the USA. That’s an average of just over 2000 a day, and it’s been like that for months. That bothers and upsets me. So much needless death. At this rate, there will be 1 million Americans gone by April. One million. In just over 2 years. How many of them didn’t have to die? 😞 |
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Post by littlemama on Jan 26, 2022 15:01:35 GMT
Choices have consequences. By choosing not to receive a safe, effective vaccine, he is choosing to be removed from the transplant list and in effect, choosing to die
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janeinbama
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,214
Location: Alabama
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Post by janeinbama on Jan 26, 2022 15:15:30 GMT
My DH had a stem cell transplant. Shutting down your immune system for something like that is brutal. You can't eat the foods you want, enjoy the outdoors when you want, or be around people for a long time. You are very sick and very weak. The list of requirements is long. I know a woman who got a tattoo to celebrate when she was approved for a transplant, and that took her off the list because it was an infection risk. He's the one who made the choice to refuse the transplant. When my brother died suddenly, we wanted to donate his organs. The hospital found a new tattoo and told us they could not take them. |
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Post by paulao on Jan 26, 2022 15:19:05 GMT
Choices have consequences. You don’t get the vaccine, you don’t get the transplant. What a way to leave your wife a widow and your children fatherless. I feel not one shred of sympathy for him or others who think like him.
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Jan 26, 2022 15:21:44 GMT
Wonder if he would be ok if the donor was vaccinated? Would that go against his principles? (Not that he would ever know that info). Well worth repeating. I am sure the medical staff is aware of the vaccine status of the donor. Surely they do as detailed as possible list of ALL medical information. |
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Jan 26, 2022 15:22:46 GMT
CNN is about to talk about this NOW!
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Post by librarylady on Jan 26, 2022 16:03:02 GMT
As others have pointed out, there is a long list of requirements for a transplant of any organ.
He has chosen to refuse the complete list of requirements. The news media has focused on the vaccine, but he could have refused the dental work(for example) and there would be no headline.
He chose death over the requirements.
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Post by smalltowngirlie on Jan 26, 2022 17:03:43 GMT
It's mind blowing to me that this guy trusts mainstream medicine to literally **remove a major organ from his body and replace it permanently with someone else's organ**, but doesn't trust them about a vaccine. THIS, so much this. I trust my oncologist to help cure my cancer, but not about the vaccine. I trust my fertility Dr. to help get me pregnant, but not about the vaccine. I trust my whatever Dr for whatever reason, BUT NOT about the vaccine. I do know people where their Dr. said they should not get it for a legitimate reason, and they are trusting their Dr. that way. I truly do not get this mentality. I am guessing there are many medications he has to agree to before a heart transplant. If he says no to them he would also be choosing to be removed from the list. |
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Post by realm on Jan 26, 2022 17:56:09 GMT
The part I don't understand is if they are concerned about the safety of the vaccine but will die without the transplant it seems to me the vaccine is a lesser risk. What possible side effects would be more concerning than death with no transplant? But then again the ant-vaccine sentiments generally do not make logical sense to me.
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Post by papersilly on Jan 26, 2022 17:57:12 GMT
i am wishing the best for the next person on the list who is vaccinated and able to get a heart transplant.
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Post by elaine on Jan 26, 2022 18:24:45 GMT
The part I don't understand is if they are concerned about the safety of the vaccine but will die without the transplant it seems to me the vaccine is a lesser risk. What possible side effects would be more concerning than death with no transplant? But then again the ant-vaccine sentiments generally do not make logical sense to me. Honestly, I’ve been asking myself “why? How can a young father come to this decision?” The only way I can make sense out of it is because he really has given up; that in his heart of hearts (no pun intended) he believes he won’t survive the transplant procedure or the heart won’t take. And he has decided that he wants to go out famous. He has had so much publicity, so much media attention, so many right-wingers using him as a poster child compared to the obscurity he was living in and believed he would die in. It still makes it a tragedy that he would choose personal fame and public adoration (from the anti-vaxxers) over trying anything to have a chance to be there for his children and wife. |
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Jan 26, 2022 18:57:48 GMT
elaine I'm not sure that he has the knowledge to think that way. The will to live has always been a very strong motivator.
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Jan 26, 2022 19:06:46 GMT
My DH had a stem cell transplant. Shutting down your immune system for something like that is brutal. You can't eat the foods you want, enjoy the outdoors when you want, or be around people for a long time. You are very sick and very weak. The list of requirements is long. I know a woman who got a tattoo to celebrate when she was approved for a transplant, and that took her off the list because it was an infection risk. He's the one who made the choice to refuse the transplant. When my brother died suddenly, we wanted to donate his organs. The hospital found a new tattoo and told us they could not take them. Sorry you had that disappointment. Hard decision would be donate to a medical school, research facility.... |
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Post by Darcy Collins on Jan 26, 2022 19:33:21 GMT
The part I don't understand is if they are concerned about the safety of the vaccine but will die without the transplant it seems to me the vaccine is a lesser risk. What possible side effects would be more concerning than death with no transplant? But then again the ant-vaccine sentiments generally do not make logical sense to me. Honestly, I’ve been asking myself “why? How can a young father come to this decision?” The only way I can make sense out of it is because he really has given up; that in his heart of hearts (no pun intended) he believes he won’t survive the transplant procedure or the heart won’t take. And he has decided that he wants to go out famous. He has had so much publicity, so much media attention, so many right-wingers using him as a poster child compared to the obscurity he was living in and believed he would die in. It still makes it a tragedy that he would choose personal fame and public adoration (from the anti-vaxxers) over trying anything to have a chance to be there for his children and wife. I think the only way to make sense of it is his belief that the hospital will cave with enough bad publicity. The idea that you're going to knowingly die to not risk a bad vaccine reaction is just incomprehensible. |
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lizacreates
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,862
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Post by lizacreates on Jan 26, 2022 20:09:31 GMT
I don’t blame the hospital or doctors. Many years ago one of my girlfriends was clinically obese and wanted a gastric bypass. Doctor told her no until she was able to lose X lbs before surgery.
Doctors and hospitals are supposed to judge—that’s part of their function. Judge the risk levels of patients, judge when a patient is doing something wrong, and help them make better decisions re their health. Whenever I go to my GP, I expect him to tell me what I’m screwing up on because my health and my life depend on that judgment. My GP is no-nonsense. He has no patience for coddling people who go against his advice and then whine when they get sick.
So if a hospital says your immunity is zero after major surgery and you have a high risk of dying and wasting a donated organ because you're unvaccinated, that’s not being unkind. That’s not being inhumane. That’s reality.
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sassyangel
Drama Llama
Posts: 7,456
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Post by sassyangel on Jan 26, 2022 21:02:02 GMT
Honestly, I’ve been asking myself “why? How can a young father come to this decision?” The only way I can make sense out of it is because he really has given up; that in his heart of hearts (no pun intended) he believes he won’t survive the transplant procedure or the heart won’t take. And he has decided that he wants to go out famous. He has had so much publicity, so much media attention, so many right-wingers using him as a poster child compared to the obscurity he was living in and believed he would die in. It still makes it a tragedy that he would choose personal fame and public adoration (from the anti-vaxxers) over trying anything to have a chance to be there for his children and wife. I think the only way to make sense of it is his belief that the hospital will cave with enough bad publicity. The idea that you're going to knowingly die to not risk a bad vaccine reaction is just incomprehensible. He’s deluded then, because they’re not the ones that create the final criteria for getting the organs. I bet given this, every transplant program in the country requires it. “Given the shortage of available organs, we do everything we can to ensure that a patient who receives a transplanted organ has the greatest chance of survival. Our Mass General Brigham healthcare system requires several CDC-recommended vaccines, including the COVID-19 vaccine, and lifestyle behaviors for transplant candidates to create both the best chance for a successful operation and to optimize the patient’s survival after transplantation, given that their immune system is drastically suppressed. Patients are not active on the waitlist without this. Research has shown that transplant recipients are at a much higher risk of dying from COVID-19 when compared to non-transplant patients. This guidance is in alignment with recommendations from the American Society of Transplantation, American Society of Transplant Surgeons and International Society for Heart and Lung Transplantation. Like most other transplant programs across the country, the COVID-19 vaccine is one of several vaccines and lifestyle behaviors that are required for patients awaiting solid organ transplant. Transplant candidates must also receive the seasonal influenza and hepatitis B vaccines, follow other healthy behaviors, and demonstrate they can commit to taking the required medications following transplant. At the Brigham and across our system, we have transplant guidelines that we follow in alignment with recommendations from the American Society of Transplantation, the American Society of Transplant Surgeons and the International Society for Heart and Lung Transplantation. More information is available here. We follow this guidance in order to create both the best chance for a successful operation and also the patient’s disease-free survival, given that their immune system is suppressed after transplant. Research has shown that transplant recipients are at a higher risk of dying from COVID-19 when compared to non-transplant patients. Transplant recipients must take immunosuppressive medications after receiving a transplanted organ. This means that after a transplant, recipients will develop less of an antibody response to a vaccine and are especially vulnerable to severe illness if they contract the virus. For this reason, experts recommend COVID-19 vaccination before organ transplantation to lower the chance of severe disease and death if a recipient becomes infected. Exceptions to these requirements are reviewed by a multidisciplinary group of experts in transplantation.” www.brighamandwomens.org/about-bwh/newsroom/transplant-candidate-vaccinationThere are super good reasons why they require it. I can’t see he’d get an exception for outright refusal. His logic is baffling, after all his body may reject his transplanted organ, but he’s willing to risk that. |
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