Dalai Mama
Drama Llama
La Pea Boheme
Posts: 6,985
Jun 26, 2014 0:31:31 GMT
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Post by Dalai Mama on Feb 10, 2022 19:46:50 GMT
NO, it is the American's that are bringing in stuff from their country (USA) into the CANADIAN protest. Don't need to read/hear stuff that has happened in your country. This is (was?) a thread about the situation in CANADA. Then don't go on an international message board. The issue isn't that you are commenting. The issue is you are projecting the problems in your own country onto ours and don't seem to understand that we are culturally, politically, and legally very different. Your experiences don't translate to what we are actually discussing here. |
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Post by pixiechick on Feb 10, 2022 19:56:43 GMT
I think it's odd how quick many democrats are to come down against a largely working class driven protest movement tbh. These truckers were putting themselves at risk throughout the pandemic to deliver goods to people who were able to stay home and protect themselves and now those same people are happy to call them selfish idiots. I personally think vaccine mandates are not only wrong but also counterproductive in the long term, even though I am 100% pro vaccine so I support the protests in that sense. I think the people against the protests are naive in many ways as giving the goverment powers to mandate medical treatments could end very badly if someone more nefarious than Biden (or even Trump) becomes president any time soon. Oh, hello again. If there is one thing that’s consistent in your posts on this topic, it’s your ability to enter late into a multi page topic lacking any nuance or context of previous discussion, in your take. Do you also know how often you qualify to say this in all of them? “even though I am 100% pro vaccine” It’s quite fascinating, really. 😏 I mean, I am too - but I never feel the need to qualify it every single time I say something. No one would feel the need to say it, if you all didn't repeatedly conflate anti-mandate with anti-vax. Just as you conflate being against illegal border crossing as being flat out anti-immigrant. If there's one thing you all are consistent with is your seeming inability to disagree with someone without changing what they actually said into something they absolutely did not say. consistent |
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Post by sideways on Feb 10, 2022 20:07:07 GMT
I’ll make sure to write my responses to you at a second grade level so you can all understand. Too bad your education is not above a second grade level if that is all you can accomplish... Displaying your dismal reading comprehension skills, I see. Maybe someone can explain it to you later. |
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Post by sideways on Feb 10, 2022 20:12:27 GMT
GM and Ford canceling shifts because of the Ambassador Bridge backup. Those fuckers need to be arrested and their vehicles towed off the bridge. To be honest, these factories are shut down all the time for various reasons. They rely on "just in time" parts to arrive via truck and they are often late or held up. They were shut down for weeks due to a shortage of chip parts. They shut down to re-tool a few times a year. Sometimes the shift arrives and they are sent home when they run out of supplies. We really need Premier Doug Ford to do something but he likes to hide when the going gets tough and he is afraid to confront the anti-vaxxers because they vote conservative. The election is in June. They don’t need a stupid “protest” to shut them down on top of what they already deal with, |
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Post by sideways on Feb 10, 2022 20:21:03 GMT
I've waded through all 14 pages of this thread, and now I'm just mad at myself for wasting half an hour of my life reading all the tangential, ridiculous crap that has pulled the thread away from talking about the protest in Ottawa ... maybe I'll go have a tea and step away from the board before I start posting the cranky comments that will not result in anything positive ... I'm trying to keep my long held belief in myself as a 'polite Canadian' but the world is making that harder some days ... You can thank the deep left on this board for that!!! Absolutely no self-reflection, whatsoever. Typical. I stand by my village idiot characterization of you. |
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Deleted
Posts: 0
Nov 23, 2024 20:50:15 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2022 20:27:16 GMT
Just to add a little bit more from my earlier post which might help explain why I think the way I do. Where I come from ( UK ) there are still very high cases and scarily all restrictions are proposed to be lifted. Our family is clinically vulnerable , required to shield , prisoners in our own home for 2 long grinding years. Our medical care for other conditions which have been life threatening at times puts us at severe risk when entering Covid full hospitals. We do try and keep informed and read both sides of any argument, our lives literally depend on it. My husband in particular tried to find out more about the complications of specific vaccines because of a serious pre-existing heart problem. He felt that Pfizer would be safer than Astra Zeneca . Vaccine complications are something that could perhaps be fatal to someone in my husband’s position . We looked at reported vaccine injury / sadly deaths that stemmed from complications due to clotting , blood thinning, or potential fatal inflammatory heart conditions. His condition is very rare and as far as we aware there has been no data collection on it with regard to vaccination. We are aware of fatal side effects of the vaccine that sadly occur out of the blue in young fit healthy individuals. A small risk granted but to those families affected I imagine it would be devastating particularly if they were pressured to receive the vaccine . This is why I feel voluntary vaccination is a preferred route. We took our time to find out as much as we could before going ahead with the Pfizer vaccine. We found that risks varied according to a person’s age with younger people being at greater risk of certain heart or blood complications. Yes , I do stand by my feelings about voluntary vaccination . I still feel there are multiple transmission routes and multiple methods of precaution. I think that people who are vaccinated still catch and spread Covid and potentially end up in Hospital just as people who are unvaccinated do. I think the situation is more complicated than just vax or anti-vax and I think that in an ideal world people would care about one another rather than just themselves and take every precaution . The reality is harsh and people like ourselves are still locked up and prevented from joining the rest of the world because other people are not taking other precautionary measures to help reduce the spread. I realise there are different sources of information some of which will contradict one another but here is one I found. This table below shows the difference in vaccinated protection levels with Omicron which highlights that it can be as low as 30% in some cases. Or to put it another way - it shows that there can be a high rate of infection and therefore transmission of up to 70% potentially within the vaccinated community who are only double vaccinated. On a personal note, I wish that vaccinated people would take additional precautions and not rely solely on the vaccine to help protect the rest of us. This particular table uses data from the UKHSA , (which I just had to look up because I did not know what it was ) It stands for UK Health Security Agency and is government based. It was tweeted by Eric Topol who from what I can gather is a well known physician and scientist from America who has contributed to an article in the Washington Post. ( I try to look at opinions and information from different countries to get a variety of different perspectives ) He has written more about it here, together with a lot more graphs and comparisons from various countries. Called “where do we stand with Omicron ?” erictopol.substack.com/p/where-do-we-stand-with-omicron  |
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Post by pixiechick on Feb 10, 2022 20:52:09 GMT
I'd love not to have to qualify that I'm pro vaccine, but when you state that you are against vaccine mandates people decide that means you're a far right, anti vax trump supporter which couldn't be further from the truth for me. I dont think refusing a vaccine is heroic, nor do I think it is a smart choice for most but I still don't think its something people should be coerced into taking under the threat of losing their jobs. This is the problem IMO, the argument has become so polarised and I worry this doesnt covince anyone to change their mind and will have long term effects on the uptake of other vaccines. voters who have made it clear they don’t ever want to be told what to do, by anyone. They're making it clear that they don't want a government that tells them they MUST inject a particular drug into their body in order to participate in society. Many of them have even been vaccinated. They just don't want a tyrannical government. |
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Post by aj2hall on Feb 10, 2022 20:58:24 GMT
Regrettably, there might be a truckers protest here, too and at the Super Bowl www.npr.org/2022/02/10/1079870231/super-bowl-truckers-protest-dhsThe group of truckers plans to start the protest in California and make their way across the country to Washington, with more truckers joining along the way, the memo says."DHS is tracking reports of a potential convoy that may be planning to travel to several U.S. cities," a department spokesperson told NPR. And this The memo also notes that DHS officials have been tracking social media posts around the Super Bowl, including ones with the hashtags #ShutDownSuperBowl and #SuperBowlTrafficking. According to relevant posts, which law enforcement officials started to track around Feb. 3, there were several social media posts with instructions on how an anonymous trucker convoy could disrupt the Super Bowl's security operations. |
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Post by pixiechick on Feb 10, 2022 20:58:24 GMT
Not the covid vaccine. It isn't a choice for most. Sure it is. Nobody forces you to get it. Businesses have every right to make requirements of their employees. I had to have proof of vaccines for my job. We also had to get a hepatitis vaccine one year. Everyone in the school district had to have it. The Covid vaccine is no different. If you don’t want a vaccine, you are free to look for another job. This is nothing new. Businesses have always had requirements for employees. A business can. A government should not. |
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Post by aj2hall on Feb 10, 2022 21:05:00 GMT
Also, regrettably, more shifts at the GM facility have been canceled and Ford is running at a reduced capacity. www.npr.org/2022/02/10/1079834996/automakers-workers-supply-chains-canada-protests-ambassador-bridgeGeneral Motors has canceled two shifts at Lansing Delta Township assembly in Michigan due to parts shortages, while Ford is running its plants in the Canadian cities of Windsor and Oakville at "reduced capacity."
A Ford spokeswoman said the bridge blockade "hurts customers, auto workers, suppliers, communities and companies on both sides of the border that are already two years into parts shortages resulting from the global semiconductor issue, COVID and more," and also called for a quick resolution.
Brian Kingston, CEO of the Canadian Vehicle Manufacturers' Association, was more blunt.
"The time has come for our governments at all levels to enforce their laws, end the blockades and restore cross-border trade," he said in a statement.
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Post by pixiechick on Feb 10, 2022 21:09:07 GMT
This is nothing new. Businesses have always had requirements for employees.
It's completely new. MOST people never had to have a vaccine to get their jobs and now they are forcing it or lose the job that some have had for 20, 30 or 40 years. Because we had a pandemic. Many jobs have all sorts of rules/requirements for their employees. Some are social, some medical, sometimes even political. At my job we were not allowed to wear or display anything political. We has to get fingerprinted and have background checks. Some places require a yearly physical. These are all requirements. The Covid vaccine is just a newer requirement. Not wearing something political, getting fingerprinted, having a background check, or getting a physical, are nowhere near equal to having a drug injected into your body. |
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Post by mollycoddle on Feb 10, 2022 21:11:59 GMT
Sure it is. Nobody forces you to get it. Businesses have every right to make requirements of their employees. I had to have proof of vaccines for my job. We also had to get a hepatitis vaccine one year. Everyone in the school district had to have it. The Covid vaccine is no different. If you don’t want a vaccine, you are free to look for another job. This is nothing new. Businesses have always had requirements for employees. A business can. A government should not. What specifically do you mean by govt requirements? |
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Post by pixiechick on Feb 10, 2022 21:13:00 GMT
It's not even the same thing. Those uniformed people took a UNIFORMED, SAY CERTAIN THINGS WHEN YOU GREET PEOPLE job to begin with. A drug test isn't injecting a vaccine into their body. It's the same thing. Not even close. |
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Dalai Mama
Drama Llama
La Pea Boheme
Posts: 6,985
Jun 26, 2014 0:31:31 GMT
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Post by Dalai Mama on Feb 10, 2022 21:13:51 GMT
Sure it is. Nobody forces you to get it. Businesses have every right to make requirements of their employees. I had to have proof of vaccines for my job. We also had to get a hepatitis vaccine one year. Everyone in the school district had to have it. The Covid vaccine is no different. If you don’t want a vaccine, you are free to look for another job. This is nothing new. Businesses have always had requirements for employees. A business can. A government should not. And, with the exception of federal employees, the Canadian government hasn't. I may be required to have a vaccination to go to the local pub but, unless the pub requires it, the employees there aren't subject to the same mandate. |
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Post by mollycoddle on Feb 10, 2022 21:15:01 GMT
Because we had a pandemic. Many jobs have all sorts of rules/requirements for their employees. Some are social, some medical, sometimes even political. At my job we were not allowed to wear or display anything political. We has to get fingerprinted and have background checks. Some places require a yearly physical. These are all requirements. The Covid vaccine is just a newer requirement. Not wearing something political, getting fingerprinted, having a background check, or getting a physical, are nowhere near equal to having a drug injected into your body. That is your opinion, and many disagree with you. To most people, it’s no big deal. |
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Deleted
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Nov 23, 2024 20:50:15 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2022 21:29:55 GMT
It is an employer setting MANDATORY REQUIREMENTS for a job. Something the "job creators" love to have the ability to do. |
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huskergal
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,439 
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Post by huskergal on Feb 10, 2022 22:42:26 GMT
I wear a mask to work. I have been vaccinated and boosted. Does that mean I have stopped living? I don't why people think wearing a mask somehow impedes their ability to go about their business. I also don't understand that we are living in a pandemic. This is new to us. It was a hot mess when it happened in 1918. We have a much larger population. We will get to the endemic state at some point. It isn't helping to overstress our medical facilities. Preventing severe cases of Covid and preventing mutations is the goal right now. If people want to get back to "normal", we need to do what we can to prevent mutations of the disease.
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Post by Merge on Feb 10, 2022 23:21:20 GMT
It is an employer setting MANDATORY REQUIREMENTS for a job. Something the "job creators" love to have the ability to do. Conservatives start agitating for the return of unions in all sectors in 3, 2, 1 …. |
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Dalai Mama
Drama Llama
La Pea Boheme
Posts: 6,985
Jun 26, 2014 0:31:31 GMT
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Post by Dalai Mama on Feb 10, 2022 23:30:32 GMT
I am pro-vaccine but disagree with mandatory vaccination. There are career choices such as the military where vaccinations are required and military applicants are already aware that vaccination goes hand in hand with the job . This is their choice because they would have known about it in advance. I am guessing that Canadian truck drivers did not sign up to this because it has been applied retrospectively.I think that mandated vaccines are different to a mask mandate. I am happy with mask mandates because Covid is an airborne disease. Masks are not medically invasive. Masks protect the wearer as well as others. Vaccinations on the other hand are medically invasive. There are people who have sadly died or had serious complications. I realise that the risks are likely small but they still exist . I also realise that many people tolerate the vaccine without any problems and that vaccines are helpful in reducing complications . Vaccines have played a part in saving some people’s lives. There have been punitive measures introduced in some countries where refusing the vaccine has the consequence of people losing their livelihood or being continuously fined , or not allowed on public transport . Amnesty have already got involved in Italy for unvaccinated people not being allowed on trains despite a negative Covid test and wearing a high quality mask to protect themselves and others. Like I say , I think that vaccines are a good choice for many people but not all. People in various countries are being punished for exercising their medical choice on something that is medically invasive which also carries a degree of risk of a fatal outcome or long term complications. Having said that so does catching Covid. With practicing all the other precautionary measures transmission could still be reduced . There are Omicron specific vaccines due out in the near future , which shows that even the vaccine manufacturers themselves feel that the current vaccines require improvement to offer better protection. The spread of the pandemic most likely has multiple causes. Lack of masks Lack of social distancing Lack of ventilation Lack of hand hygiene Lack of isolation Lack of working from home Lack of effective vaccine protection against new variants You are guessing. There is no vaccine mandate for truckers. There is a mandate for anyone crossing the border from the US into Canada. There is no federal requirement for travel within Canada. As I’ve said elsewhere, unvaccinated Canadian truckers cannot drive into the US without being vaccinated so protesting not being able to get back into Canada when you can’t leave to begin with is idiotic. So, what are they protesting? An American Pea, said they are protesting broader mandates. So, which mandates? Because other than the mandates limiting entry into Canada, and those for airline and train travel, all mandates are provincial. And yet, they’re in Ottawa. If people are actually interested in the motivations of the Convoy organizers, google the MOU of Canada Unity. They’ve since rescinded it, but it’s still available through news outlets. Pay special attention to the part about removing all members of government and replacing them with an unelected committee of CU members. |
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Post by bc2ca on Feb 10, 2022 23:33:57 GMT
You are guessing. There is no vaccine mandate for truckers. There is a mandate for anyone crossing the border from the US into Canada. There is no federal requirement for travel within Canada. As I’ve said elsewhere, unvaccinated Canadian truckers cannot drive into the US without being vaccinated so protesting not being able to get back into Canada when you can’t leave to begin with is idiotic.
So, what are they protesting? An American Pea, said they are protesting broader mandates. So, which mandates? Because other than the mandates limiting entry into Canada, and those for airline and train travel, all mandates are provincial. And yet, they’re in Ottawa. If people are actually interested in the motivations of the Convoy organizers, google the MOU of Canada Unity. They’ve since rescinded it, but it’s still available through news outlets. Pay special attention to the part about removing all members of government and replacing them with an unelected committee of CU members.  The line I bolded is a truth that gets lost in this whole mess.  |
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Dalai Mama
Drama Llama
La Pea Boheme
Posts: 6,985
Jun 26, 2014 0:31:31 GMT
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Post by Dalai Mama on Feb 10, 2022 23:48:35 GMT
You are guessing. There is no vaccine mandate for truckers. There is a mandate for anyone crossing the border from the US into Canada. There is no federal requirement for travel within Canada. As I’ve said elsewhere, unvaccinated Canadian truckers cannot drive into the US without being vaccinated so protesting not being able to get back into Canada when you can’t leave to begin with is idiotic.
So, what are they protesting? An American Pea, said they are protesting broader mandates. So, which mandates? Because other than the mandates limiting entry into Canada, and those for airline and train travel, all mandates are provincial. And yet, they’re in Ottawa. If people are actually interested in the motivations of the Convoy organizers, google the MOU of Canada Unity. They’ve since rescinded it, but it’s still available through news outlets. Pay special attention to the part about removing all members of government and replacing them with an unelected committee of CU members. The line I bolded is a truth that gets lost in this whole mess. And, when that was pointed out, the organizers pivoted to the ‘all mandates’ BS. But, again, that doesn’t make any sense because the mask and dining mandates are provincial. As are the lockdowns. |
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anonaname
Full Member
Posts: 256
Aug 18, 2021 0:04:22 GMT
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Post by anonaname on Feb 10, 2022 23:54:21 GMT
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Post by sawwhet on Feb 10, 2022 23:57:57 GMT
To be honest, these factories are shut down all the time for various reasons. They rely on "just in time" parts to arrive via truck and they are often late or held up. They were shut down for weeks due to a shortage of chip parts. They shut down to re-tool a few times a year. Sometimes the shift arrives and they are sent home when they run out of supplies. We really need Premier Doug Ford to do something but he likes to hide when the going gets tough and he is afraid to confront the anti-vaxxers because they vote conservative. The election is in June. They don’t need a stupid “protest” to shut them down on top of what they already deal with, I'm not agreeing with the protest at all in any way. I think they're a bunch of low intellect, knuckle draggers and my dh worked in the auto industry for decades. |
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Post by LiLi on Feb 10, 2022 23:59:29 GMT
If they were, "allowed across" they weren't illegaly entering. I won't say that other disgusting word that is made to dehumanize people. 😡 Why must you be so rude and offensive.
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Feb 11, 2022 0:08:45 GMT
I just hope those who are against vaccine mandates understand that your children and their children will start getting some of the awful diseases that my generation suffered with and too many died from. Think long and hard about what you are supporting.
You and your cohorts are encouraging all mandates be gone. Ask some of your elders what polio did to their families and friends. Ask Mitch McConnell who has worn a mask through this whole mess. I had polio and still has issues.
Small pox is deadly. Measles damages hearing, and kills.
Diphtheria kills. Whooping cough has most recently been killing babies who can't cough the stuff out.
Chicken pox leaves its after virus for Shingles...
That's enough for now.....
Again, think long and hard for the futures you are giving the next generations..
ETA: Forgot to mention most the House members and Senate members are vaccinated, FOX, requires vaccines for personnel as do most other networks... They just lie to the public/their viewers about it all. I bet they got in line and got theirs vaccines before I did.
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Post by aj2hall on Feb 11, 2022 0:16:00 GMT
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Post by aj2hall on Feb 11, 2022 0:33:39 GMT
With practicing all the other precautionary measures transmission could still be reduced . There are Omicron specific vaccines due out in the near future , which shows that even the vaccine manufacturers themselves feel that the current vaccines require improvement to offer better protection. The spread of the pandemic most likely has multiple causes. Lack of masks Lack of social distancing Lack of ventilation Lack of hand hygiene Lack of isolation Lack of working from home Lack of effective vaccine protection against new variants Question… After reading the information below do you still think what you posted makes sense? I’ve read in several articles the virus mutants into a variant in unvaccinated host bodies. And this one is from August but this article sort of tells you how. Every time there is a new variant there is a rush to determine if the current group of vaccines work and how well. Restrictions are put in place until it can be determined how serious the new variant is. That being the case then logic dictates that to cut down on new variants then all the people that can be vaccinated get vaccinated so we can all go back to a somewhat normal life. Right now there is a lull and restrictions are being eased. But will that be the case a month from now? Six weeks from now? The problem is the experts don’t know. And again that is why it’s important for people that can get vaccinated, get vaccinated. And to make sure a enough vaccine is sent to the poorer countries who are behind in getting people vaccinated because of the lack of vaccines. I mean seriously people would you want to be the host body for virus to mutate into the latest variant? Ick. “ Unvaccinated People Are Increasing the Chances for More Coronavirus Variants — Here’s How”From the article… linkExperts say the number of unvaccinated people in the United States is a key reason coronavirus variants are emerging. They explain that the virus replicates quicker in unvaccinated people, increasing the chance of mutations. They’re concerned that new COVID-19 cases will continue to rise as variants spread and people still refuse to get vaccinated. How the virus spreads and changesOne of the key characteristics of the coronavirus is the spike protein that allows it to latch onto a host cell, penetrate it, and cause an infection. That spike is what vaccines target to block the virus. In the unvaccinated, however, the virus gets in, hijacks the cell, and turns it into a factory. It then makes thousands of copies of itself. If there’s a copying mistake or error, scientists call that a mutation. Occasionally, a mutation can help the virus get into the body’s cells more easily. When mutations accumulate over time, new variants of a virus strain emerge. The Delta variant has outpaced all its rivals by reproducing itself quicker and in larger numbers. Scientists say that makes it more highly contagious. Another complication has surfaced: Scientists say unvaccinated parents are bringing the virus home to their children. Pediatricians say cases are rising and children’s hospitals are seeing a spike in children needing care. Children under age 12 aren’t currently eligible for a vaccine. And, as schools are opening — some with minimal COVID-19 safety protocols — experts fear it’s only going to get worse. Exactly. Just wanted to echo this. Covid variants are spreading in the unvaccinated and the unvaccinated are more likely hosts for potential new variants. Also, just wanted to repeat that vaccinated people getting infected with covid does not mean that the vaccines are ineffective. The goals of the vaccines are to prevent hospitalization and death. The vaccines are effective at preventing severe illness and death against all of the variants, even omicron. www.bloomberg.com/news/newsletters/2021-09-05/the-unvaccinated-are-a-risk-to-all-of-usAs Christopher Martin, a professor of public health at West Virginia University, explains it, these undervaccinated pockets create more opportunity for the virus to mutate.
“Large numbers of unvaccinated people do make variants more likely,” he says. The virus that causes Covid-19 replicates only when inside a human host, and it does so by hijacking our cellular machinery to make more copies of itself instead of more copies of human cells. But that process is messy, and mistakes in the genetic code occur frequently as the virus copies itself. Those mistakes often result in mutations that create slightly different versions of the invading pathogen.
“If any one of these random errors confers an advantage to that virus, such as making it more contagious like delta, that variant can quickly become the dominant one circulating in the population,” says Martin.
www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/02/03/yes-its-still-pandemic-unvaccinated-arguably-even-more-so-now/For more than a hot second after the emergence of the omicron coronavirus variant, there was a major backlash from the right against President Biden having labeled our current state of affairs a “pandemic of the unvaccinated.”
The reason: The omicron variant rendered the coronavirus vaccines significantly less effective at stopping the spread. “What’s the point of vaccines or vaccine mandates?” a bunch of powerful people asked. They did so while deliberately ignoring both the vaccines’ continued assistance in slowing the spread (albeit at a reduced rate) and their continually strong performance in keeping people alive and out of the hospital.
It was shortsighted at the time, and it’s looking increasingly so now.
New data shows that on those same measures — literally the most vital ones — the gap between vaccinated and unvaccinated Americans remains stark. In fact, when you compare unvaccinated people to those most protected by the vaccines, the gap has grown.
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention released new data this week from Los Angeles County. The data covered the period between Nov. 7 and Jan. 8, which means the vast majority of cases involved came after the rise of omicron.
What you’ll see right away is that there are indeed lots of infections among both unvaccinated people and vaccinated people — more specifically, vaccinated people who haven’t gotten boosters. The latter accounted for a majority of cases, about 53 percent. A big reason for that is that they significantly outnumber the unvaccinated in the county, currently about 2 to 1. Unvaccinated people still got infected more frequently, but the gap closed.
Where the gap has not really closed — and indeed has arguably increased — is when you focus on the most serious cases, and when you compare the unvaccinated to those who have taken the most advantage of the vaccines.
Back in September, we got a big new data download from the CDC. It showed that during the spring and summer, unvaccinated people had been 10 times more likely to be hospitalized with the coronavirus and 11 times more likely to die. Those were big numbers that placed the importance of vaccination in stark relief.
After the introduction of boosters, we now have yet another category to compare to the unvaccinated: the boosted. And the gap is greater still.
The Los Angeles County data showed that at the tail end of the period in which the delta variant was predominant, unvaccinated people were 83 times more likely to be hospitalized than boosted people. Once omicron became predominant in early December and cases rose, the gap shrank. But it was still a 23-fold difference — greater than the gap in the larger study from earlier in the year.
The CDC also recently provided data from a larger study — similar to the spring-and-summer data from last year. In data for 25 jurisdictions covering the last three months of 2021, it found the death rate was 53 times higher among the unvaccinated than the boosted.
It’s gotten to the point where people who are vaccinated and boosted dying in a given week is apparently about 1 in a million — even less than dying in a car crash, as the New York Times’s David Leonhardt wrote.
As Leonhardt also noted, this is also hardly the first data to suggest a growing gap in outcomes between the unvaccinated and everyone else. Data from Seattle and New York City point in the same direction.
Interestingly, that larger 25-jurisdiction study showed that the smaller gap between the unvaccinated and the vaccinated-but-unboosted remained similar to the spring and summer: You were about 13 times more likely to die if you were unvaccinated, compared with 11 times before.
But layering on boosters has expanded the gaps even further between the unprotected and the most-protected. That shows up in both the larger study, which mostly covered the delta period, and the more specific omicron data from Los Angeles County.
Last month, we noted that the pushback against the “pandemic of the unvaccinated” talking point ignored the metrics by which we usually define pandemics:
Those more-serious cases cause significant damage because of the strain not just on the people involved and their loved ones, but on the larger health-care system — which is a hugely important piece of this. A huge and defining piece of any pandemic, after all, is the lasting results it has by virtue of its most serious cases. We often talk about these things in terms of death tolls for a reason, and the unvaccinated are overwhelmingly driving the death toll.
The most recent data suggests those who continue to eschew the vaccines, despite everything, are likely to drive the death toll even more.www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/aug/25/facebook-posts/evidence-shows-covid-19-variants-are-largely-sprea/www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8497702/www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/17/unvaccinated-coronavirus-covid-variants-us |
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sassyangel
Drama Llama
Posts: 7,456
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Post by sassyangel on Feb 11, 2022 0:56:13 GMT
Just to add a little bit more from my earlier post which might help explain why I think the way I do. Where I come from ( UK ) there are still very high cases and scarily all restrictions are proposed to be lifted. Our family is clinically vulnerable , required to shield , prisoners in our own home for 2 long grinding years. Our medical care for other conditions which have been life threatening at times puts us at severe risk when entering Covid full hospitals. We do try and keep informed and read both sides of any argument, our lives literally depend on it. My husband in particular tried to find out more about the complications of specific vaccines because of a serious pre-existing heart problem. He felt that Pfizer would be safer than Astra Zeneca . Vaccine complications are something that could perhaps be fatal to someone in my husband’s position . We looked at reported vaccine injury / sadly deaths that stemmed from complications due to clotting , blood thinning, or potential fatal inflammatory heart conditions. His condition is very rare and as far as we aware there has been no data collection on it with regard to vaccination. We are aware of fatal side effects of the vaccine that sadly occur out of the blue in young fit healthy individuals. A small risk granted but to those families affected I imagine it would be devastating particularly if they were pressured to receive the vaccine . This is why I feel voluntary vaccination is a preferred route. We took our time to find out as much as we could before going ahead with the Pfizer vaccine. We found that risks varied according to a person’s age with younger people being at greater risk of certain heart or blood complications. Yes , I do stand by my feelings about voluntary vaccination . I still feel there are multiple transmission routes and multiple methods of precaution. I think that people who are vaccinated still catch and spread Covid and potentially end up in Hospital just as people who are unvaccinated do. I think the situation is more complicated than just vax or anti-vax and I think that in an ideal world people would care about one another rather than just themselves and take every precaution . The reality is harsh and people like ourselves are still locked up and prevented from joining the rest of the world because other people are not taking other precautionary measures to help reduce the spread. I realise there are different sources of information some of which will contradict one another but here is one I found. This table below shows the difference in vaccinated protection levels with Omicron which highlights that it can be as low as 30% in some cases. Or to put it another way - it shows that there can be a high rate of infection and therefore transmission of up to 70% potentially within the vaccinated community who are only double vaccinated. On a personal note, I wish that vaccinated people would take additional precautions and not rely solely on the vaccine to help protect the rest of us. This particular table uses data from the UKHSA , (which I just had to look up because I did not know what it was ) It stands for UK Health Security Agency and is government based. It was tweeted by Eric Topol who from what I can gather is a well known physician and scientist from America who has contributed to an article in the Washington Post. ( I try to look at opinions and information from different countries to get a variety of different perspectives ) He has written more about it here, together with a lot more graphs and comparisons from various countries. Called “where do we stand with Omicron ?” erictopol.substack.com/p/where-do-we-stand-with-omicron I'm curious about the following from your post. I am sorry this is your reality. What I don't understand is, this being your reality and you still not being in favor of vaccine mandates. You've seen it for yourself on this thread - they have been crystal clear and totally unapologetic about it. Most of these people against them too, could not care less if you and your clinically vulnerable family live or die. You mean less than zero to them. It would be awesome if everyone cared about everyone else, and did the right things with others in mind. The reality is, they dont and wont. So, while i wish they were not, they are needed. Did you ask your own doctors about this, and have a dialogue with them about what you found? While being informed is great, there are lots of nuances to adverse event reports that I think shouldn't be left to solely to the interpretation of regular people doing research. That context is important too. There are. This is one thing I think we are in complete agreement with. You think. But you dont need to think or feel on this. There is LOTS of actual data on this from many countries around the globe. Yes, there are vaccinated people who get covid, get sick and some even still die despite it, but the actual data is clear - a majority of current hospitalizations/deaths are predominantly unvaccinated people. Go and actually look at the data, its out there. You cannot leave vaccination out as a precaution they could take and won't. I'll say this again. Not only are they not taking precautions to reduce the spread because they're done with masks and being told what to do by anybody, but they actively don't care if you live or die as a result. They just don't. THATS the sad, repulsive reality we are living with. These are the people you want spare of some 'invasive medical procedure'. Sorry, I just do not get it.  |
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Post by Merge on Feb 11, 2022 3:25:48 GMT
I just hope those who are against vaccine mandates understand that your children and their children will start getting some of the awful diseases that my generation suffered with and too many died from. Think long and hard about what you are supporting. You and your cohorts are encouraging all mandates be gone. Ask some of your elders what polio did to their families and friends. Ask Mitch McConnell who has worn a mask through this whole mess. I had polio and still has issues. Small pox is deadly. Measles damages hearing, and kills. Diphtheria kills. Whooping cough has most recently been killing babies who can't cough the stuff out. Chicken pox leaves its after virus for Shingles... That's enough for now..... Again, think long and hard for the futures you are giving the next generations.. ETA: Forgot to mention most the House members and Senate members are vaccinated, FOX, requires vaccines for personnel as do most other networks... They just lie to the public/their viewers about it all. I bet they got in line and got theirs vaccines before I did. What I come back to in all of this, is that when the history of this tragic period is written, more than one million US citizens will have died in about two years. Medical experts estimate that a very large chunk of those deaths could have been prevented if the person was vaccinated. And that doesn't even count all the people who have died while putting off medical care because of full hospital beds. History will show that most people in the U.S. took the pandemic seriously and followed health guidelines to keep themselves and others safe. And it will show that others chose instead to follow the advice of charlatans and con artists in playing down the pandemic, refusing health recommendations, or - and this is important for the "I'm in favor of vaccines but opposed to employer mandates" crowd - coddling and enabling those who refused. I'm pretty sure I know which side will be remembered as showing compassion and good character, along with reason and good sense. In a normal world, we would never have had a bunch of grifters and opportunists leading our country at a time of national crisis, and conspiracy theories about vaccines would not have been given oxygen and a platform by powerful and well-connected people. Most people would have gotten the vaccine, just as most people get childhood vaccines for their children. The numbers refusing would have been low enough that we could still have achieved something like herd immunity against serious illness, as we do with childhood illnesses, and saved a lot of lives. But instead, the conspiracy theorists got a national platform buoyed by political leaders with a cult following, and here we all are. To the extend that mandates are even necessary, they are necessary because the GOP gave a platform and political clout to the absolute fringiest of the wackos out there. They gave a veneer of legitimacy to nonsense. And millions of gullible people nodded their heads and said yep, they must be right, and now this is why we can't have nice things. We have mandates because the GOP made it necessary for us to have them. And the right-wing fringe in other countries went along for the ride. Yippeeeee. |
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Post by sideways on Feb 11, 2022 4:19:46 GMT
Watching local Detroit TV news. A protestor on the bridge was interviewed. Quote: ”We’re protesting for uh…our freedom.”
Asshole has freedom. He doesn’t know what it’s like to NOT have freedom. He can’t even articulate what he’s supposed to be protesting beyond “uh…our freedom”. He’s just having a temper tantrum and regurgitating buzz words spoon fed to him by his right-wing puppet masters.
Apparently there’s a hearing tomorrow and the Windsor mayor hopes to get an injunction to start removing the protestors from the Ambassador Bridge.
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The line I bolded is a truth that gets lost in this whole mess. 
