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Post by pixiechick on Aug 2, 2022 18:52:20 GMT
I'm not grasping at straws. Jeh Johnson said their policies were EQUIVALENT IN SERIOUSNESS, VIRTUALLY THE SAME AS* open borders. (the definition of the word that he used- *tantamount) The current escalation of the crisis at the border IS because of what Biden is doing and saying. The people coming across are even saying they came now because of Joe biden. Obama said we can not have open borders in response to the crisis. He was not just musing in general. I don’t know how to make it any more clear. Neither one said we currently have open borders. I don't know how to make it any clearer, it is NOT just Cindosha and Fox News saying it. The current border IS a continuation of what they were speaking about, when they spoke about open borders. To dismiss that in order to perpetuate the dig that it's just fox news talk, is disingenuous. At best |
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Aug 2, 2022 19:07:34 GMT
Not only that, but Jeh Johnson’s comments are from 2019. Biden wasn’t even president yet, he couldn’t possibly have been describing the current situation. Right. And I never said he was. ETA: This is what I said: Jeh Johnson, in response to all of the 2020 Democratic presidential candidates declaring their open border policies. One of them being Joe Biden. You also said that Jeh Johnson and Obama said that we currently have open borders. That is false. |
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compeateropeator
Drama Llama
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Post by compeateropeator on Aug 2, 2022 19:10:12 GMT
I am just full of questions today. Hahaha. I am another that never could figure out the logic behind the claims that Biden has given us/wants open borders argument. So if our existing border laws are adequate and man power is what we we need why are those not the talking points? Where did all the border patrol manpower go that Trump must of had to control the borders as well as he said he did?
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Post by pixiechick on Aug 2, 2022 19:11:04 GMT
Right. And I never said he was. ETA: This is what I said: Jeh Johnson, in response to all of the 2020 Democratic presidential candidates declaring their open border policies. One of them being Joe Biden. You also said that Jeh Johnson and Obama said that we currently have open borders. That is false. Where did I say that? |
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Post by aj2hall on Aug 2, 2022 19:19:40 GMT
I don’t know how to make it any more clear. Neither one said we currently have open borders. I don't know how to make it any clearer, it is NOT just Cindosha and Fox News saying it. The current border IS a continuation of what they were speaking about, when they spoke about open borders. To dismiss that in order to perpetuate the dig that it's just fox news talk, is disingenuous. At best Who else is saying it? We’ve made it clear that both Obama and Johnson were not speaking about the current situation. They were discussing open borders in theory. Obama, Johnson and as far as I know, other Democrats are not using the words open borders to describe the current situation. If anyone other than Fox and conservatives are using the term open borders, please provide evidence. Obama and Johnson did not refer to the current situation as open borders and any claim that they did is simply false. You might think the current situation qualifies as open borders, but that’s your opinion, it’s not a fact and it’s not what either of them said. |
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Post by pixiechick on Aug 2, 2022 19:38:00 GMT
I don't know how to make it any clearer, it is NOT just Cindosha and Fox News saying it. The current border IS a continuation of what they were speaking about, when they spoke about open borders. To dismiss that in order to perpetuate the dig that it's just fox news talk, is disingenuous. At best Who else is saying it? We’ve made it clear that both Obama and Johnson were not speaking about the current situation. They were discussing open borders in theory. Obama, Johnson and as far as I know, other Democrats are not using the words open borders to describe the current situation. If anyone other than Fox and conservatives are using the term open borders, please provide evidence. Obama and Johnson did not refer to the current situation as open borders and any claim that they did is simply false. You might think the current situation qualifies as open borders, but that’s your opinion, it’s not a fact and it’s not what either of them said. You are absolutely correct in that they did not say that today. I also never said that they did. But the current border absolutely IS a continuation of what at least Obama was speaking about just last year under Biden, when he spoke about open borders. Jeh Johnson was specifically speaking to Biden, among others, on their plans that he called virtually the same as open borders. To dismiss that in order to perpetuate the dig that it's just fox news talk, is disingenuous. At best |
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Aug 2, 2022 19:41:18 GMT
You also said that Jeh Johnson and Obama said that we currently have open borders. That is false. Where did I say that? In every post related to me saying that Fox and Cindosha were saying that we have open borders? Hasn’t that been the point that you are trying to make—that it isn’t *just fox and people who watch it who are saying that we have open borders??that is why you brought Jeh Johnson and Obama into the conversation in the first place. |
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Post by pixiechick on Aug 2, 2022 19:55:25 GMT
If the border was open as you and Fox says it is, wouldn't there be no need to call people "illegal"? Her, Fox, Jeh Johnson, Obama. This post of yours to cindosha is what I responded to. You later added the word "currently". I even bolded it when you did to differentiate what I was responding to vs. the new parameters. I believe they like to call that moving the goal posts. But I don't want to assume that was your intention, because obviously, it may not have been. |
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Post by pixiechick on Aug 2, 2022 19:59:09 GMT
Her, Fox, Jeh Johnson, Obama. This post of yours to cindosha is what I responded to. You later added the word "currently". I even bolded it when you did to differentiate what I was responding to vs. the new parameters. I believe they like to call that moving the goal posts. But I don't want to assume that was your intention, because obviously, it may not have been. And now that I'm reading what you said, "it is". I can see where the disconnect comes from. My apologies. That was never my intent - that they said it currently. I can see where you might have thought that I did. |
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Post by pixiechick on Aug 2, 2022 20:07:42 GMT
In every post related to me saying that Fox and Cindosha were saying that we have open borders? Hasn’t that been the point that you are trying to make—that it isn’t *just fox and people who watch it who are saying that we have open borders??that is why you brought Jeh Johnson and Obama into the conversation in the first place. Just to clarify, this is where I stand. I never said "they currently said we have open borders". But the current border crisis absolutely IS a continuation of what at least Obama was speaking about just last year under Biden, when he spoke about open borders. Jeh Johnson was specifically speaking to Biden, among others, on their plans, the ones that he called virtually the same as open borders. |
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Post by katlady on Aug 2, 2022 20:12:18 GMT
Your friend might be interested to learn that a large percentage of illegal immigrants come into the US on airplanes and overstay their visas, but that’s not as good a photo op or as useful fodder for Fox News to blather about. There was a restaurant owner in San Diego who overstayed his Visa. He was from Great Britain. He had been in San Diego for about 10 years before being found out. And how was he caught … at one of the border patrol checkpoints in between San Diego County and Orange County. Someone had to have ratted him out though. Those checkpoints are open at random times throughout the day. And for 95% of the passenger vehicles, the agents just wave you through, we don’t even come to a complete stop. For the checkpoint to be open when he is driving through, and the agent stopping a male Caucasian, driving alone, and discovering he is an illegal immigrant is probably like a million to one long shot. There are probably many more like him in the US, but no one seems to care about that. |
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Aug 2, 2022 20:25:18 GMT
If you want illegal immigration to stop, start arresting those who are hiring them.
If you want illegal immigration to stop, stop letting anyone and everyone just waltz in over the borders unchecked. A big part of why we have a huge drug problem in the US is because we are letting the illegal immigrants waltz right in illegally with their drugs. And we are doing nothing about it except to complain that the illegal border crossers are being whipped. If you want the immigrants to the jobs the Americans won't do, bring them in legally and vetted. Through checkpoints. If the border was open as you and Fox says it is, wouldn't there be no need to call people "illegal"? this is the post you are referring to, which was my response to Cindosha. She was clearly referring to present conditions at the border. She is also not the only person that says that. There aren't many with that line of thinking here, but on social media there are plenty. I appreciate that you went back and clarified your position. |
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Post by pixiechick on Aug 2, 2022 20:45:47 GMT
If the border was open as you and Fox says it is, wouldn't there be no need to call people "illegal"? this is the post you are referring to, which was my response to Cindosha. She was clearly referring to present conditions at the border. She is also not the only person that says that. There aren't many with that line of thinking here, but on social media there are plenty. I appreciate that you went back and clarified your position. I do think that there are many here that think that the borders are tantamount to open borders. Which is what people are saying when they say we have open borders. They don't believe that we officially have open borders, but essentially. |
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Post by aj2hall on Aug 2, 2022 20:51:15 GMT
Who else is saying it? We’ve made it clear that both Obama and Johnson were not speaking about the current situation. They were discussing open borders in theory. Obama, Johnson and as far as I know, other Democrats are not using the words open borders to describe the current situation. If anyone other than Fox and conservatives are using the term open borders, please provide evidence. Obama and Johnson did not refer to the current situation as open borders and any claim that they did is simply false. You might think the current situation qualifies as open borders, but that’s your opinion, it’s not a fact and it’s not what either of them said. You are absolutely correct in that they did not say that today. I also never said that they did. But the current border absolutely IS a continuation of what at least Obama was speaking about just last year under Biden, when he spoke about open borders. Jeh Johnson was specifically speaking to Biden, among others, on their plans that he called virtually the same as open borders. To dismiss that in order to perpetuate the dig that it's just fox news talk, is disingenuous. At best That’s based on your opinion, your perception, your conclusion and not on what they actually said. You’re using a false premise and a false assumption based on opinion to twist their words to fit your narrative. Still waiting for evidence of these other Democrats. As far as I know, only conservatives and conservative media are using the term open borders. |
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Post by lucyg on Aug 2, 2022 20:53:03 GMT
Jeh Johnson was responding to what candidates said. Not to any actual, factual situation in which we have “open borders.” Candidates throw out all kinds of ideas. That doesn’t mean those ideas are ever actually implemented, or even considered. Barack Obama said we cannot have open borders. Not that we DO have open borders. If this is your best argument, you are grasping at straws. I'm not grasping at straws. Jeh Johnson said their policies were EQUIVALENT IN SERIOUSNESS, VIRTUALLY THE SAME AS* open borders. (the definition of the word that he used- *tantamount) The current escalation of the crisis at the border IS because of what Biden is doing and saying. The people coming across are even saying they came now because of Joe biden. Obama said we can not have open borders in response to the crisis. He was not just musing in general. Why do we have to keep repeating this? These are not the policies that are in effect. They are ideas people were talking about during the primary campaign. Primaries always bring out more extreme ideas than either general elections or actual governing. No matter what Jeh Johnson said about ideas being discussed at that time, we do not have open borders.And of course more people are interested in coming to the USA right now. Trump is no longer in power and we are trying to reunite separated families, not take their kids away forever. You can keep saying I’m wrong over and over again, but my answer isn’t going to change. |
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Post by lucyg on Aug 2, 2022 20:59:10 GMT
pixiechick this is the post you are referring to, which was my response to Cindosha. She was clearly referring to present conditions at the border. She is also not the only person that says that. There aren't many with that line of thinking here, but on social media there are plenty. I appreciate that you went back and clarified your position. I do think that there are many here that think that the borders are tantamount to open borders. Which is what people are saying when they say we have open borders. They don't believe that we officially have open borders, but essentially. Which, I believe, is exactly what is meant by one of your favorite terms, “moving the goalposts.” |
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Aug 2, 2022 21:01:38 GMT
I'm not grasping at straws. Jeh Johnson said their policies were EQUIVALENT IN SERIOUSNESS, VIRTUALLY THE SAME AS* open borders. (the definition of the word that he used- *tantamount) The current escalation of the crisis at the border IS because of what Biden is doing and saying. The people coming across are even saying they came now because of Joe biden. Obama said we can not have open borders in response to the crisis. He was not just musing in general. Why do we have to keep repeating this? These are not the policies that are in effect. They are ideas people were talking about during the primary campaign. Primaries always bring out more extreme ideas than either general elections or actual governing. No matter what Jeh Johnson said about ideas being discussed at that time, we do not have open borders.And of course more people are interested in coming to the USA right now. Trump is no longer in power and we are trying to reunite separated families, not take their kids away forever. You can keep saying I’m wrong over and over again, but my answer isn’t going to change. Not to mention that we are just getting out of a pandemic so I wouldn't think it is unexpected for people to be coming now. Also, I think we need to realize that there are going to be a lot of people throughout the world that are in more and more desperate situations due to climate change. We need to be planning for that and what supporting those people looks like. |
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lizacreates
Pearl Clutcher
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Post by lizacreates on Aug 2, 2022 21:06:00 GMT
I do think that there are many here that think that the borders are tantamount to open borders. Which is what people are saying when they say we have open borders. They don't believe that we officially have open borders, but essentially. Which, I believe, is exactly what is meant by one of your favorite terms, “moving the goalposts.” ROFL. That arrow of yours is sharp, girlfriend. |
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Post by aj2hall on Aug 2, 2022 21:17:48 GMT
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Post by lucyg on Aug 2, 2022 21:26:11 GMT
Which, I believe, is exactly what is meant by one of your favorite terms, “moving the goalposts.” ROFL. That arrow of yours is sharp, girlfriend.  I am old and cranky and have very little patience remaining. Ask my kids. |
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Post by pixiechick on Aug 3, 2022 1:02:49 GMT
That’s based on your opinion, your perception, your conclusion and not on what they actually said. You’re using a false premise and a false assumption based on opinion to twist their words to fit your narrative. Of course it's my opinion. And my opinion is based, in part, on what Obama, Johnson and the democrats at the border said and the crisis at the border. Still waiting for evidence of these other Democrats. As far as I know, only conservatives and conservative media are using the term open borders. So? I'm still waiting for a lot of things from you that you say and refuse to back up or explain the discrepancy in your words. But here you go... Democrat Henry Cuellar said that migrants are trying to enter the U.S. because THEY believe “that the border is open.” But this is the one with Democrat Mayor of the border town of Eagle Pass, Texas I saw earlier this year. He does not use the term open border, but it caught my eye because it was a Democrat that was being honest about the situation at the border and begging for help from Biden vs. making excuses for him: Democrat Mayor Rolando Salinas " the administration's plan announced by DHS Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas does not address how migrants will be "stopped" from getting into Texas." <Clickable LINK I look forward to seeing how you will dismiss it.  we do not have open borders. No shit. You can keep saying I’m wrong over and over again, but my answer isn’t going to change. Same. Which, I believe, is exactly what is meant by one of your favorite terms, “moving the goalposts.” Oh! FFS It's not moving the goal post when I've said it all along by quoting Jeh Johnson saying " tanatamount to open borders". It's clarifying what I'm saying. You all demand precision in words and then handslap for providing it. You're a trip. |
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Post by iamkristinl16 on Aug 3, 2022 1:20:16 GMT
pixiechick this is the post you are referring to, which was my response to Cindosha. She was clearly referring to present conditions at the border. She is also not the only person that says that. There aren't many with that line of thinking here, but on social media there are plenty. I appreciate that you went back and clarified your position. I do think that there are many here that think that the borders are tantamount to open borders. Which is what people are saying when they say we have open borders. They don't believe that we officially have open borders, but essentially. Re-read the last part of your post here and try to understand how this could be seen as moving the goalposts. First, you said that Obama and Jeh Johnson said that we have open borders (when in fact, they did not say that and there was more context to what they did say). Then you say that Cindosha and others may SAY that we have open borders, but really what they mean is that we *essentially* have open borders but not officially. So, we shouldn't pay attention to what they actually say, just what they essentially say, when they say that we have open borders. Is that right? Kind of like when people try to justify what Trump said for the last several years. He didn't really mean that...he meant this...even though he said that.... |
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Post by aj2hall on Aug 3, 2022 1:24:28 GMT
A Democrat saying migrants believe the border is open is not the same as Democrats using the term open borders in reference to the current situation.
The Democratic mayor did not use the term open borders either.
Jeh Johnson was talking about a proposal that has not been enacted. You can continue to quote him all you want, but he did not in any way say that we have open borders.
Still no evidence that anyone other than conservatives and conservative media are using the term open borders.
moving goalposts
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Post by lucyg on Aug 3, 2022 1:50:28 GMT
If the border was open as you and Fox says it is, wouldn't there be no need to call people "illegal"? Her, Fox, Jeh Johnson, Obama. Only now you’re saying you didn’t really claim Obama and Johnson said the borders are open. All righty then. You should know by now, the peas will call you out on anything you say that isn’t entirely accurate. |
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Post by pixiechick on Aug 3, 2022 3:36:00 GMT
The Democratic mayor did not use the term open borders either. That's why I said He does not use the term open border, but it caught my eye because it was a Democrat that was being honest about the situation at the border and begging for help from Biden vs. making excuses for him. Still no evidence that anyone other than conservatives and conservative media are using the term open borders. Per the rules, that is incorrect. "That is tantamount to declaring publicly that we have open borders. That is unworkable, unwise and does not have the support of a majority of American people or the Congress." Jeh Johnson, in response to all of the 2020 Democratic presidential candidates declaring their open border policies. One of them being Joe Biden. "We're a nation-state. We have borders. The idea that we can just have open borders is something that ... as a practical matter, is unsustainable." Obama, September of last year. Right after more than 15,000 Haitian migrants camped underneath an international bridge in Del Rio, Texas. You should know by now, the peas will call you out on anything you say that isn’t entirely accurate. Oh, I will never forget that again. |
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Post by aj2hall on Aug 3, 2022 4:24:04 GMT
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Post by aj2hall on Aug 3, 2022 4:49:40 GMT
Conservatives and conservative media are using the term open borders to stir up their base. Support for restrictions on immigration is a rallying cry. Trump knew this when he referred to Mexican immigrants as rapists and murderers, Tucker Carlson knows this when he talks about replacement theory. Stirring up racism and xenophobia with talk about border walls, keeping people out etc is a winning political strategy for Republicans. www.nytimes.com/2022/05/16/us/politics/republicans-great-replacement.htmlAhead of November’s midterm elections, Republican candidates have ramped up warnings about the threats being posed to what is cast as real or traditional America. Often unsaid is what that bygone era looks like: white, male-dominated, Judeo-Christian and heterosexual.
Issue after issue has been recast as a reason for Republican voters to fear for their culture and values: Transgender rights threaten girls sports. The removal of statues threatens to expunge Confederate history in the South and other white historical figures elsewhere. Critical race theory is portrayed as rewriting American history — and overhauling how it is taught — to emphasize episodes of racism.
Even the recent baby formula shortage has been falsely reimagined as so acute because of giveaways to feed undocumented children.
More than a dozen candidates and outside groups have run ads warning of an immigrant “invasion” in the country or otherwise diluting the power of native-born citizens. Several candidates have falsely said that Democrats are opening the border specifically to let undocumented people in to vote.
“If Joe Biden keeps shipping illegal immigrants into our states, we’re all going to have to learn Spanish,” Gov. Kay Ivey, Republican of Alabama, said in one television ad ahead of her May 24 primary.
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Post by revirdsuba99 on Aug 3, 2022 5:13:31 GMT
Gov Ivey is inappropriate and wrong in more ways then just this!!
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Post by gar on Aug 3, 2022 8:40:39 GMT
I look forward to seeing how you will dismiss it. I think it's past time we clarify the difference between dismissing something and refuting it. To dismiss something is to not even consider it, to ignore it, whereas to refute something means to prove an argument wrong, to actively explain it's inaccuracy. I think refuting statements in political discussions is a given but your frequent claim of being 'dismissed' is inaccurate. |
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Post by aj2hall on Aug 3, 2022 13:55:48 GMT
The Republican embrace of fringe and extreme views on replacement theory and talk about an “invasion” of immigrants is concerning. These views used to be just white supremacists but regrettably, conservatives have made these views mainstream. Republican candidates across the country (Arizona, Georgia & Florida) are using the term invasion. www.npr.org/2022/08/03/1115175247/talk-of-invasion-moves-from-the-fringe-to-the-mainstream-of-gop-immigration-mess"This type of rhetoric, it's meant to agitate people for political reasons," Cárdenas said, "because it makes people feel anger and hate."
"The word invasion presses the hot buttons of Republican voters as they feel that it's a much bigger deal than it was before," Thomas said. "The rhetoric is increasing its intensity to match."
But immigrant advocates say the invasion narrative is fundamentally misleading.
Almost half of all migrants apprehended at the southern border are quickly expelled back to Mexico. Nearly all are unarmed. Many are fleeing poverty and violence and autocratic governments all over the hemisphere, and turning themselves in to the Border Patrol in hopes of getting asylum or other protections in the U.S.
"They're mothers and children and fathers, people who are basically doing what any one of us would do if we were in their shoes," said Rep. Veronica Escobar, a Democrat who represents El Paso in Congress.
What worries Escobar is that this invasion rhetoric will inspire another tragedy like the mass shooting in the El Paso Walmart — or the shooting earlier this year in Buffalo, where the man suspected of killing 10 Black people was also motivated by the replacement theory.
"I am very, very concerned for communities like mine that we will see more acts of violence committed against immigrants, against Latinos, because of this rhetoric," Escobar said on a call with reporters last month.
Advocates say this increasingly extreme language is putting a target on the backs of immigrants — one that will still be there when the midterm elections have come and gone.
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I am old and cranky and have very little patience remaining. Ask my kids.
