|
Post by straggler on Jul 15, 2014 0:00:22 GMT
"And as a mother, I can't imagine being apart from your children, hearing the siren, and wondering if your children found a bomb shelter."
And then doing it over and over and over and over and over again! How awful!
|
|
|
Post by *KatyCupcake* on Jul 15, 2014 0:26:21 GMT
"And as a mother, I can't imagine being apart from your children, hearing the siren, and wondering if your children found a bomb shelter." And then doing it over and over and over and over and over again! How awful! Absolutely- regardless of if it's an Israeli mother or Palestinian. That's a universal momma-bear moment.
|
|
|
Post by christine58 on Jul 15, 2014 2:35:05 GMT
I am going to politely bow out of this conversation because I don't want to anger anyone or hurt anyone's feelings. No you're bowing out because someone questioned your response. At least be honest...oh wait.... I-95..please be safe...and thanks to all who answered and explained things!
|
|
|
Post by I-95 on Jul 15, 2014 7:31:42 GMT
Just a quick update.... The Egyptians have negotiated a ceasefire. Hamas and Israel have accepted the terms, however, the military wing of Hamas has not. They have fired rockets at the towns closest to the Gaza strip this morning, but none at Tel Aviv or communities further inland.
Up here in the North Hezbollah rebels have been firing mortar rounds across the border. They have not hit anything of significance and will probably stop soon. Let's see if that holds too.
|
|
scrappinghappy
Pearl Clutcher
“I’m late, I’m late for a very important date. No time to say “Hello.” Goodbye. I’m late...."
Posts: 4,307
Jun 26, 2014 19:30:06 GMT
|
Post by scrappinghappy on Jul 15, 2014 10:23:27 GMT
I've read Hamas is not happy with the terms of that ceasefire. No prisoners released, no commitment to reopen Rafah, no payments to 40,000 clerks (who has that many clerks anyways and what do they do). I've also read that Haniyeh, and Mashaal in particular, have rejected the ceasefire. Does that mean rockets will continue to be fired? Will that break the ceasefire? Netanyahu is ready for a major ground offensive. I hope it doesn't come to that I also read on my FB feed that at least one rocket fired into Eilat FROM EGYPT, hit a hotel in the resort town and caused two deaths. I'm still in the middle of nowhere so this thread, thanks to I-95, and FB are keeping me somewhat up to date on this very slow Wifi connection.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 6, 2024 14:21:01 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2014 12:22:31 GMT
|
|
|
Post by I-95 on Jul 15, 2014 12:27:56 GMT
Well, Israel seems more than ready for a ground assault if they don't accept the ceasefire.
On Sunday, as we were driving back up North, the Southbound traffic certainly had enough army troop trucks and trucks carrying tanks to suggest an offensive was at hand. Personally I think it's more of a dramatic show than a real threat, but Netanyahu is tired of this nonsense and he just might go ahead with it if they don't stop throwing rockets at us.
|
|
|
Post by anxiousmom on Jul 15, 2014 12:46:34 GMT
I am watching the news and Hamas has rejected the cease fire and missiles are being fired into Israel again. I only heard that the cease fire arrangements were proposed by Egypt and subsequently rejected by Hamas.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 6, 2024 14:21:01 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2014 13:33:00 GMT
Be safe, I-95.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 6, 2024 14:21:01 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2014 13:33:30 GMT
Just read this tweet by IDF spokesperson Peter Lerner in an article on MSNBC."Following 6 hrs of indiscriminate rocket fire at #Israel the #IDF has resumed operational activities against #Hamas." Looks like the violence will continue. Imagine747, you stay safe.
|
|
|
Post by BeckyTech on Jul 15, 2014 14:12:20 GMT
Hamas might want to reconsider that cease-fire, since they are hitting their own people and power stations in Gaza in the process of firing at Israel. They continue to urge their people to act as human shields and ignore the warnings on the leaflets dropped by Israel before a strike.
Stay safe, I-95, and thank you for the updates.
|
|
|
Post by elaine on Jul 15, 2014 14:19:04 GMT
Baruch Hashem, be safe, I - 95.
|
|
|
Post by I-95 on Jul 15, 2014 15:03:46 GMT
Oh well, that didn't last long, did it?
|
|
|
Post by I-95 on Jul 15, 2014 15:10:13 GMT
For those of you who are interested, this video shows how the 'knock, knock' process works when Israel is going to make a hit on a terrorist's home. It starts with a phone call to warn peope to get out of the building, then an inert round is fired....well, watch the video. The first thing you see is the knock, knock....it's an inert round. Please note that nothing happens to the building right next door to the targeted building... Knock, Knock...
|
|
mapchic
Junior Member
Posts: 62
Jun 26, 2014 0:16:00 GMT
|
Post by mapchic on Jul 15, 2014 16:05:58 GMT
If anyone wants a small taste of what it is like for Israelis living under constant threat of rocket attack - download the app called 'red alert' which sounds an alert when there is an incoming rocket to Israel. I had it running for a day and was a wreck even though I live on the other side of the planet. It helps bring home what it is really like to live under attack.
I am late to this thread but I can't resist a really long reply to lots of posts on the last 6 pages.
*Cough* Golda Meir *cough* Margaret Thatcher *cough* Aafia Siddiqui *cough*
This is something that is often said but I don't think really holds up. In many ways women can be *more* vicious than men - particularly when in defense of their home and family.
If 'in the beginning' you mean during Muhammad's lifetime living under the constitution of Medina prior to the battle of the trench... ok. But from that point on... not really. Sometimes people look with rose colored glasses at history and see peace that really wasn't there. Jews were permitted to live in Muslim lands under very strict regulations that involved them being treated as second class citizens with fewer rights and forcing them to pay additional taxes.
A few things. One part in the beginning for sure was an atonement for failure to act to provide for Jews escape during the lead up the holocaust.
Today there is surely a shared culture and tradition with values of liberty, freedom and representative government that make us natural allies with Israel. To have an ally with shared values is very important when dealing with ideological conflicts like those we see today.
There is also the whole 'Enemy of my enemy is my friend' feature. If one is truly machiavellian one could say that Israel serves as a convenient distraction for our enemies. If those who have vowed to destroy our nation and kill our people are busy saying 'first Israel, the America' then supporting Israel serves as a bulwark against attacks on us.
This just seems very, very condescending. To say that all humans are important... but only some humans can be trusted to have elections? How is that not offensive. When Palestinians vote for war and hatred why not just believe that what they want is war and hatred? To say that they are somehow incapable of voting is infantilizing and offensive to the people who made this choice.
No mystery for me. He created a circumstance in which he was a victim in order to claim victimization. Classic 'Pallywood' manipulation at it's best.
To be fair - I have dealt with this person IRL - and am not a fan so take my perspective with a grain of salt.
Coulda, woulda, shoulda. You are using modern eyes with an additional 50 years of experience to judge historical decisions. Remember in 1948 the world was barely 3 years out from a catastrophic world war, the cold war was just getting started and the middle east was a backwater. There was a certain sense of 'we are tired - let them figure it out among themselves'.
Of course, that didn't work so 50 years later when Yugoslavia collapsed in a fit of ethnic hatred the world had learned a lesson (in no small part from the middle east) and did what they could to stop a repeat of that experience. Without the experience in Israel would there have been peacekeepers sent to Sarajevo?
This. A thousand times this. Most people don't realize that upon creation of Israel Muslim controlled nations in the region expelled most of their Jewish populations - generally with only the shirts on their backs. Meanwhile, Israel did *not* expel Arabs who lived there - they choose to leave.
At the creation of Israel the surrounding nations could have done what Israel did - welcome those who choose to leave and make them part of the population of their countries (Egypt, Jordan, Syria). Instead they stuck them in a no-mans land and used the plight of their 'Palestinian brothers' (I would hope you would treat your brother better than that) as a propaganda tool.
Even today there are many Arab Israeli citizens (20% of the population) who are the descendants of those who stayed. There are Arab members of the Knesset (the Israeli legislature) and all citizens of Israel share in the same rights and freedoms of citizenship - regardless of religion or ethnicity. The other nations in the region can not say the same in terms of the treatment of Jews or any other minority.
Am I a bad person that I read this and thought... I bet you could get a great deal on a vacation to Israel right now. With fewer tourists there would be great service and as a bonus - you would come home with a great story! Added bonus if I got to see the Iron Dome in use - that would be amazing.
|
|
|
Post by I-95 on Jul 15, 2014 16:16:10 GMT
Actually, I put that stuff about women in there as kind of an amusement....I was sort of imagining WWTPD. lol. Yes, you are a bad person...although I have to admit that it made it a lot easier for me to get a flight back to the US at then end of August. Those flights were all totally packed with kids going back to the US in time for school to start. After the conflict started I had my choice of flights If I knew how to post pics I would post the ones I took of the Iron Dome in action...although it's not all that dramatic, you hear a whirring sound then there's a yellow flash, a puff of white smoke, and that's it.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 6, 2024 14:21:01 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2014 16:30:56 GMT
This just seems very, very condescending. To say that all humans are important... but only some humans can be trusted to have elections? How is that not offensive. When Palestinians vote for war and hatred why not just believe that what they want is war and hatred? To say that they are somehow incapable of voting is infantilizing and offensive to the people who made this choice. And I stand by what I said. I don't find it offensive not infantilizing. Sorry you choose to see it that way. Shrug.
|
|
|
Post by *KatyCupcake* on Jul 15, 2014 17:11:20 GMT
Some humans knowingly make hateful and violent choices and therefore forfeit their "right" to the same respect and understanding. When you choose to support, encourage, and participate in the killing of an entire people and nation (by the way, the term for this is genocide), I just don't feel you deserve equal compassion. When you purposefully elect violent leaders who use you as human shields and make martyrs of your sons and daughters, you get what you asked for. Yes, that sounds harsh and maybe I'm a bad person for feeling this way, but I can't imagine living every day the way Israelis exist. It would be like having my neighbors hate me and my children so much that they want us dead and try to blow up our home every day. And yet I turn and allow them use of my yard and utilities and send over dinner so their children don't starve. I couldn't do it. Israel is far more compassionate than I would be.
|
|
MizIndependent
Drama Llama
Quit your bullpoop.
Posts: 5,836
Jun 25, 2014 19:43:16 GMT
|
Post by MizIndependent on Jul 15, 2014 17:29:10 GMT
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Oct 6, 2024 14:21:01 GMT
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2014 17:43:27 GMT
I watched about 20 seconds of this and turned it off. Even if you remove the murder of the 3 Israeli teens from the equation, Israel is bombing Palestine in defense. I suppose Israel is supposed to sit back and allow rockets to bombard them and they're not supposed to defend themselves? I don't mind factual reporting that may show another side...but it's not honest...and because it's not honest, I'd consider it propaganda.
|
|
|
Post by *KatyCupcake* on Jul 15, 2014 17:57:32 GMT
Interesting opinion piece, MizIndependent. If you have access, please tell me more about the "Storm Clouds Gathering" organization that put this video together. Everything I've looked at is posted anonymously so I can't be sure of whose opinion is being shared and where they are getting their sources. I just have a difficult time giving the same weight of credit to a group that remains anonymous and doesn't provide their sources. It just doesn't seem much different than the "Classic 'Pallywood' manipulation" Mapchic was discussing up thread.
|
|
|
Post by I-95 on Jul 15, 2014 18:01:37 GMT
Mz. Independent...you posted that video without comment. Are we to conclude that you believe the content, or disbelieve it?
I managed to get through 4 minutes of it. There are so many things that are, shall we say, incorrect....like Israel is 'Pummeling residential Neighborhoods'. Like Hamas is sending 'puny, homemade rockets into Israel'. Like, no Israelis have been hurt by these puny homemade rockets....that changed this afternoon when a young man was taking treats to the soldiers and was hit by a rocket. He died. Like Israel kidnapped and killed the 3 West Bank Teens....OMG, the reason they give for this is because the kidnappers were speaking Hebrew....Newsflash, everyone here speaks Hebrew, including the Arabs, and a stunning number of Israelis speak Arabic.
I can't believe people buy into this BS.
|
|
|
Post by *KatyCupcake* on Jul 15, 2014 18:04:12 GMT
I'm wondering if the guy narrating that video takes time to look into the deaths of Israelis killed by Hamas rockets the way he looks at the dead bodies of the Palestinian civilians Hamas has used as shields and purposefully put in harm's way. Has he watched the iron dome in action as Israel actively protects its civilians? He uses the deaths of Palestinians the same way that Hamas and Hezbollah use them- they are emotional ammunition to keep blasting Israel. That is the part that bothers me most about his video.
Even if it is all about natural gas resources as he claims, the region of Gaza was a gift to the Palestinian refugees as a peace offering. Hamas has not abided by the terms of that peace. If they don't have to play by the rules, why is it we expect Israel to do so?
|
|
MizIndependent
Drama Llama
Quit your bullpoop.
Posts: 5,836
Jun 25, 2014 19:43:16 GMT
|
Post by MizIndependent on Jul 15, 2014 18:12:09 GMT
Interesting opinion piece, MizIndependent. If you have access, please tell me more about the "Storm Clouds Gathering" organization that put this video together. Everything I've looked at is posted anonymously so I can't be sure of whose opinion is being shared and where they are getting their sources. I just have a difficult time giving the same weight of credit to a group that remains anonymous and doesn't provide their sources. It just doesn't seem much different than the "Classic 'Pallywood' manipulation" Mapchic was discussing up thread. StormCloudsGathering is an independent media...I think he identifies as a voluntarist, but not in the sense of a synonym for Anarcho-capitalism. He's actually taken on AnCaps in the past (using real world experience of rural Mexico against them) and is decidedly opposed to private policing and authoritarian hierarchical business models (labelling capitalist business models as statist). So for that you could at least think of him as some kind of left-libertarian. He also has a "collapse updates" thing, where he follows the right-libertarian narrative of dollar collapse, "second American revolution" and FEMA camps. I think his analysis of western intervention in the Middle-East is very good. His warnings about the increasing militarization of US police is pretty good too, and it mostly avoids the "gun confiscation" alarmism. As for this video in particular, I for one did not know that there is a HUGE natural gas field right underneath Gaza. The Guardian: IDF's Gaza assault is to control Palestinian gas, avert Israeli energy crisisWashingtonInstitute.org: Natural Gas in the Palestinian Authority: The Potential of the Gaza Marine Offshore Field ETA: As with anything of this nature, take it with a huge grain of salt. If anything there has value, great. If not, disregard it. ETAA: His name is Aaron Hawkins.
|
|
|
Post by *KatyCupcake* on Jul 15, 2014 18:21:32 GMT
Thanks for your response. I still don't know who "he" is. I can find his opinion videos and read what he writes on the website and facebook page, but that doesn't fill me in on who he is. I'm more comfortable with sources who don't hide behind anonymity. I know the video I shared was one-sided so I don't have an issue sharing one side or another. I do like those sources to be upfront about who they are and what they use as a base for their opinions.
|
|
|
Post by I-95 on Jul 15, 2014 19:13:04 GMT
The idea that this latest altercation is over the gas reserves off the coast, is ludicrous. The Palestinian Authority has neither the knowledge, nor the financial resources to get the gas. No major corporation is going to negotiate with them for the rights to the gas, simply because they can't be trusted....a fact they have proven over and over again.
What I really want to know, is why Israel is expected to play nice but the Palestinians aren't. You rarely see anyone demanding that the Palestinian Authority get their act together and sit down like grown ups and work out a peaceful settlement to any of the problems in the ME, but everyone expects Israel to be nice to the terrorists. Tell me what the Palestinians have done to ease the tension in the ME? Tell me when Israel has broken a ceasefire agreement. Tell me when the Palestinians have given Israel anything....but the world expects Israel to pander to a bunch of terrorists. I'm tired of it, and I'm especially offended by that video suggesting, no, not even suggesting, outright saying that Israelis murdered those West bank teenagers. Why do we have to put up with this crap?
|
|
|
Post by elaine on Jul 15, 2014 20:48:17 GMT
If anyone wants a small taste of what it is like for Israelis living under constant threat of rocket attack - download the app called 'red alert' which sounds an alert when there is an incoming rocket to Israel. I had it running for a day and was a wreck even though I live on the other side of the planet. It helps bring home what it is really like to live under attack. I am late to this thread but I can't resist a really long reply to lots of posts on the last 6 pages. *Cough* Golda Meir *cough* Margaret Thatcher *cough* Aafia Siddiqui *cough* This is something that is often said but I don't think really holds up. In many ways women can be *more* vicious than men - particularly when in defense of their home and family. A few things. One part in the beginning for sure was an atonement for failure to act to provide for Jews escape during the lead up the holocaust. Today there is surely a shared culture and tradition with values of liberty, freedom and representative government that make us natural allies with Israel. To have an ally with shared values is very important when dealing with ideological conflicts like those we see today. There is also the whole 'Enemy of my enemy is my friend' feature. If one is truly machiavellian one could say that Israel serves as a convenient distraction for our enemies. If those who have vowed to destroy our nation and kill our people are busy saying 'first Israel, the America' then supporting Israel serves as a bulwark against attacks on us. This just seems very, very condescending. To say that all humans are important... but only some humans can be trusted to have elections? How is that not offensive. When Palestinians vote for war and hatred why not just believe that what they want is war and hatred? To say that they are somehow incapable of voting is infantilizing and offensive to the people who made this choice.No mystery for me. He created a circumstance in which he was a victim in order to claim victimization. Classic 'Pallywood' manipulation at it's best.
To be fair - I have dealt with this person IRL - and am not a fan so take my perspective with a grain of salt. This. A thousand times this. Most people don't realize that upon creation of Israel Muslim controlled nations in the region expelled most of their Jewish populations - generally with only the shirts on their backs. Meanwhile, Israel did *not* expel Arabs who lived there - they choose to leave. At the creation of Israel the surrounding nations could have done what Israel did - welcome those who choose to leave and make them part of the population of their countries (Egypt, Jordan, Syria). Instead they stuck them in a no-mans land and used the plight of their 'Palestinian brothers' (I would hope you would treat your brother better than that) as a propaganda tool. Even today there are many Arab Israeli citizens (20% of the population) who are the descendants of those who stayed. There are Arab members of the Knesset (the Israeli legislature) and all citizens of Israel share in the same rights and freedoms of citizenship - regardless of religion or ethnicity. The other nations in the region can not say the same in terms of the treatment of Jews or any other minority. Am I a bad person that I read this and thought... I bet you could get a great deal on a vacation to Israel right now. With fewer tourists there would be great service and as a bonus - you would come home with a great story! Added bonus if I got to see the Iron Dome in use - that would be amazing. Thank you, the quoted comment has been bothering me since I read it for the reasons you mentioned. I fail to understand the logic behind not blaming Palestinians for voluntarily voting terrorists into power (and what that has of course resulted in) because they are uneducated. If one believes that, then what would be the solution? Give rule of the region to a more educated people? Because I know where that would lead me to look...
Yeah, that is what I finally concluded after getting more info about the author.
|
|
|
Post by BeckyTech on Jul 15, 2014 20:57:49 GMT
Wow. That video is the most deceptive piece I've seen in a long time. But let's break it down, shall we? - First he implies that the police suppressed the audio because the teens were killed by Israeli's and there isn't a shred of evidence against Hamas.
It seems that there was a monumental f* up by the police in handling the call. From a USA Today report: "The report says those on duty tried to speak with the teen and called back a traced number no less than eight times but, in the end, a manager and shift supervisor decided not to look into the call any further." The police did request the media not publish much about that, but not for the reasons this video suggests, but because they screwed up big time, and it needs to be investigated so it doesn't happen again. In addition, he says the audio was being held by the government under a gag order. Again, I don't know about you all, but when a problem like this arises here, they will withhold the full audio and transcript -- and refuse to comment about it -- until it has been investigated by the proper authorities. Which is what is happening there. Standard procedure. Maybe the video maker lives in a perfect world, but the exact same type of circumstances have happened with 911 and the police here in the metro area. One that comes to mind was when a woman died in a domestic violence situation because the local police f*'d up the call and response so badly. In another case, 911 was completely to blame for a man dying. It was terrible. But it happens. When a proper investigation is made, procedures are usually modified. ETA: thank you I-95 for clarification of some of the details here (see next page). The fact remains that the implication in the video was incorrect.- They don't have a shred of evidence against Hamas for the teen kidnappings?
Well, technically it was an offshoot of Hamas that took credit for the kidnapping and killings: - Next he tries to tell you that the Israeli's want to grab the natural gas in Gaza; that is the real reason for the bombing.
It took me about 2 minutes to find out that there is indeed a huge natural gas field, but that it is on land owned by BOTH the Israeli's and Palestinians. As a matter of fact, according to our own government's website: So, once again, the Israeli's are not only going to help the Palestinians, but the Palestinians have also inked a deal with Egypt to exploit their resources. Then I found another article from Reuters that gave more detail about who is involved (a U.S. and an Australian company): ETA: Thank you @dottyscrapper for clarification on the natural gas field details (see next page). My main point was Israel has its own natural gas fields, they don't need to "take" anything or kill anyone over natural gas as is implied in the video. - Another point he makes is with the maps, telling you that maps don't lie.
Well, at the very least, he certainly seeks to deceive, because if you look at those maps, the first two are from BEFORE Israel was even declared a state by the UN! The second map shows the UN PROPOSED map of the area which the Palestinians REJECTED. (ETA: I didn't have time to really look at the other 2 maps, but I suspect the same type of deception there as well.) I have to get to work, but clearly with just a little investigation of your own, you can see for yourself that this video is a very deceptive piece of work. One last point, though. He mentions the "suspicious death" of Palestinian leader Yassar Arafat; the implication is clear. I've read in many sources over the years that the Israeli's absolutely did not want to assassinate him because that would have made him a martyr. In fact, I've read more than a few pieces that point out his failing health at the time of his death. There may have been a power grab by other jihadists involved as well. ETA: Oh, and those "puny homemade bombs" that he mentions? Puh-leeze. They can kill just as effectively as any other armament.
|
|
|
Post by elaine on Jul 15, 2014 21:01:18 GMT
Thanks for your response. I still don't know who "he" is. I can find his opinion videos and read what he writes on the website and facebook page, but that doesn't fill me in on who he is. I'm more comfortable with sources who don't hide behind anonymity. I know the video I shared was one-sided so I don't have an issue sharing one side or another. I do like those sources to be upfront about who they are and what they use as a base for their opinions. Meh. I find anyone who says "I am not interested in sharing my credentials with you and if you want to see them in order to evaluate my 'research,' there is something wrong with you," to be suspect. One of the first steps of critical thinking is to evaluate the source of the information. If I am being shown a new house, I want to know that the builder was a licensed professional. It may look all pretty on the outside, but if it was built by Joe Schmo, with no training, chances are that the foundation would crumble and there would be structural issues once someone started living in it. Anyhow, he apparently is willing to say whatever it takes to grasp his few minutes of fame, even if blatantly false. I'm sure he would love to know we are discussing him here now and would consider himself successful just on that alone.
|
|
|
Post by lucyg on Jul 15, 2014 21:16:15 GMT
"There is also the whole 'Enemy of my enemy is my friend' feature. If one is truly machiavellian one could say that Israel serves as a convenient distraction for our enemies. If those who have vowed to destroy our nation and kill our people are busy saying 'first Israel, the America' then supporting Israel serves as a bulwark against attacks on us." -- mapchicThe reason they hate the U.S. is because of our support for Israel. So this is sort of a circular argument. As far as our standing among Islamist terror groups goes, we'd be better off without Israel than with it. I think it would be politically expedient for the U.S. to desert Israel, and I'm grateful that instead, we've always stood by it.
|
|