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Post by elaine on Jul 15, 2014 21:24:28 GMT
"There is also the whole 'Enemy of my enemy is my friend' feature. If one is truly machiavellian one could say that Israel serves as a convenient distraction for our enemies. If those who have vowed to destroy our nation and kill our people are busy saying 'first Israel, the America' then supporting Israel serves as a bulwark against attacks on us." -- mapchicThe reason they hate the U.S. is because of our support for Israel. So this is sort of a circular argument. As far as our standing among Islamist terror groups goes, we'd be better off without Israel than with it. I think it would be politically expedient for the U.S. to desert Israel, and I'm grateful that instead, we've always stood by it. I think it is one reason, Lucy, but certainly not the only one. They consider us a den of evil and sin because of how we treat our women, for example. We let our women go to school, dress any way they choose, drink alcohol, etc. There are many things Islamist terror groups find abhorrent about America; Israel is a big sore point, but there would still be plenty to war against in the USA even if we were to sever our ties with Israel.
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Deleted
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Oct 6, 2024 16:22:40 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2014 22:06:51 GMT
I think you might find that he's not talking about the Leviathan gas field but the Gaza Marine-q and the Gaza Marine - 2 Becky. Link : link
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Post by I-95 on Jul 15, 2014 22:31:02 GMT
It was a monumental F'up as far as the 911 call went. When they couldn't get anyone to answer the phone they decided it was a kid making a prank call (kids have been known to make prank 911 calls) and it wasn't until later that night, when the parents started reporting their kids hadn't arrived home that the police put the 911 call together with the missing person reports....but by that time 7 hours had gone by and the kids were already dead. There was an investigation and several people were fired.
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Post by BeckyTech on Jul 15, 2014 23:31:30 GMT
Thank you both for clarification of the details I got wrong. As mentioned, I was (am) in a hurry, so I hope you all will make some concession for that. Basic points remain intact, I believe. I did make an ETA at the appropriate points in my original post to point people here for clarification.
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mapchic
Junior Member
Posts: 62
Jun 26, 2014 0:16:00 GMT
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Post by mapchic on Jul 15, 2014 23:36:59 GMT
The video 'Gaza what you are not being told' is the worst kind of sensationalizing propaganda. I hate that I have to respond to it but one should always speak out against these kinds of lies and falsehoods. At the 45 second mark (yes, that soon) the claim is made that because the kidnappers were speaking Hebrew they must be Israeli. That is a leap. There are non-Israelis who speak Hebrew, just as there Israeli Jews who speak Arabic. Particularly in a situation like this where the kidnappers are just repeating a simple phrase (heads down) they might not even actually *speak* Hebrew and could have just memorized the phrase. Natural gas? Really? This is the worst kind of black helicopter tinfoil hat conspiracy theorizing (Arafat hardly died under 'suspicious circumstances' - he was old and sick). 2:20 "These are the motives of all wars. Resources, territory and power." Nope. There is a long (really, really long) ongoing debate about what is the motive of all sorts of wars - economics or nationalism. What we are dealing with in Gaza is one group (Arabs) who viciously ethnically hate another group (Jews) and have vowed to destroy them. 2:30 "Always stand against wars of aggression". Ok, what does the creator of this video think of the fact that in 1948 at the very birth of Israel neighboring countries including Egypt, Transjordan, Lebanon, Syria, and Iraq sent invasion forces to try and destroy the new country? What about the subsequent wars in 1967 and 1973? If this person is opposed to wars of aggression then they should recognize that Israel has a primarily defensive stance. I think his problem is that Israel din't in a defensive crouch but rather stands ready and willing to defend itself. 2:45 "How many Palestinian corpses does it take to equal one Israeli". How about we look at the case of the exchange for Gilad Shalit - an Israeli soldier abducted by Hamas. Hamas then only returned him in exchange for 1027 Palestinian prisoners. So it looks like the number is 1 Israeli equals 1027 Arabs. At least according to Hamas. Again and again Hamas has created crisis which result in exchanges you can read about them here. 3:10 talks about images of civilian casualties. Well, we have already seen instances where the images were false (from other conflicts). Additionally the IDF has gone to great lengths to warn civilians to get away from buildings that will be bombed (the great video of the knock, knock bombing earlier in the thread shows this). The choice is being made by leaders to sacrifice their civilians. The spokesman for Hamas has called for people to act as human shields which you can watch for yourself on this video. 3:50 "These primitive rockets have not killed one single Israeli" Not for lack of trying. Just because someone fails to kill you doesn't mean you shouldn't have the right to defend yourself. 4:20 "Puny homemade rockets" They are rockets fully capable of killing. Designed to kill as many Jews as possible. The unibomber killed with homemade bombs... didn't make him less evil. If the people who spent their time, money and energy building rockets (not entirely 'homemade' btw) on educating and advancing their own culture the whole world would be better off - the residents of Gaza most of all. 5:40 "Maps don't lie." True. Maps are inanimate objects and don't lie. That said people often use maps to lie and misrepresent the world around them. So what happened between the 1967 map and the map of 2010 that is shown in the video? The six day war and the Yom Kippur War. Those times when Israel was attacked by it's neighbors (Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Iraq) simultaneously as they tried to 'push Israel into the sea'. Israel won and was able to take the territories necessary to maintain their security. The same as has happened throughout history. 6:20 "Right of return" As I said above - what about the rights of the Jews who were expelled from countries throughout the region? If we are going to play the 'You can't have it both ways' game that knife cuts deep throughout the region. OK, I give up. I can't believe I lasted that long.
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Post by *KatyCupcake* on Jul 16, 2014 0:13:48 GMT
Mapchic, thank you for taking time to go through the inaccuracies in the propaganda video. You definitely made it through longer than I did. I quit watching when he started using Palestinian casualties as emotional blackmail against Israel- knowing full well this is EXACTLY what Hamas intends.
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Post by lucyg on Jul 16, 2014 7:29:55 GMT
Here is an editorial by Sen. Chuck Schumer from Tuesday's New York Post that I think everyone should read. There Is No Moral Equivalency Between Israel and Hamas <snip> In fact, there is no moral equivalence between the actions and reactions of Israel and Hamas and the Palestinian community to the violence that has occurred. Two glaring examples stand out. The first revolves around the difference between Israel's and the Palestinian community's reactions to the horrible kidnappings and coldblooded murders of four boys, three Israeli and one Palestinian. No doubt the loss of these children is one beyond words. Both incidents were abhorrent. But the reaction on both sides was not the same. How did Hamas and too many diverse parts of the mainstream Palestinian community respond to the kidnap and murder of three young Israelis? They cheered. The official Hamas spokesman called the kidnappers "heroes." The mother of one of the suspected kidnappers, Abu Aysha, said, "If he [my son] truly did it — I'll be proud of him till my final day." <snip> Compare that to the reaction of the Israeli people to the murder of the Palestinian teenager. Israelis were aghast. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu immediately called the murderers "terrorists" who committed deeds equal to the terrorism on the other side and said that Israel must find "who is behind this despicable murder." The Israeli government has made every effort to bring those responsible to justice, and there are now six arrests. While each side has its fanatics, it's how the societies deal with those fanatics that counts. --- There's more covered in the editorial so check it out.
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scrappinghappy
Pearl Clutcher
“I’m late, I’m late for a very important date. No time to say “Hello.” Goodbye. I’m late...."
Posts: 4,307
Jun 26, 2014 19:30:06 GMT
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Post by scrappinghappy on Jul 16, 2014 8:30:20 GMT
I really want to be more involved in this discussion but with limited access to slooooow Wifi, I am very limited. Here's a quote I came across ""The sending of a missile cannot be considered a warning. It is the targeting of civilians with a weapon, regardless of how small, and it is a violation of the Geneva conventions," said Mahmoud Abu Rahma of the Al Mezan Center for Human Rights." Is he referring to rockets shot from Israel or Gaza. Why not hold BOTH to the same standards link
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Deleted
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Oct 6, 2024 16:22:40 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2014 10:39:05 GMT
I really want to be more involved in this discussion but with limited access to slooooow Wifi, I am very limited. Here's a quote I came across ""The sending of a missile cannot be considered a warning. It is the targeting of civilians with a weapon, regardless of how small, and it is a violation of the Geneva conventions," said Mahmoud Abu Rahma of the Al Mezan Center for Human Rights." Is he referring to rockets shot from Israel or Gaza. Why not hold BOTH to the same standards linkYes he is referring to Israeli air strikes. The targeting of civilians is a violation of the Geneva convention and is classed as war crimes. Israel have the knowledge and the military equipment to be able to precisely target a certain building. Hamas don't have the knowledge or the equipment. That isn't an excuse for them to fire their rockets though. I have no problem with Israel targeting rocket launching sites to destroy Hamas capabilities to launch the rockets,that to me is justified in protecting themselves. What I, and many others around the world have a problem with is, they are targeting the homes of Hamas members too, where there are no rocket launchers. The buildings are being targeted because according to their intelligence Hamas members live there. In doing so they are also killing and injuring innocent civilians and lets face it, not all Palestinians are Hamas members. Hamas only gathered 45% of the votes at the elections that brought them to power. If Israel has gathered enough intelligence to know that Hamas members are living in these buildings then surely it's not unreasonable for them to also have the intelligence gathering that tell them that there are innocent people also living in these building. A five month old baby was killed this morning. Now please, someone tell me what threat does a five month old baby have to anyone. Here's another case. Here's the link from one report, there are others confirming the same incident if you want to google it link
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Post by mollycoddle on Jul 16, 2014 11:04:27 GMT
This is interesting:
www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4544412,00.html
I think that it is tragic that civilians are being killed. It should be pointed out, however, that in many cases they are actively pressured by Hamas NOT to evacuate. It is hard to believe, but look at the coverage. Hamas is using these deaths as propaganda tools. And a lot of the media appears to believe them. Look at the coverage in The Huffington Post, for example. It is, IMO, completely one-sided. Guess which side.
Gah, let me try that link again. I have never figured out how to use the link feature on this site, so I am just copying and pasting:
www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4544412,00.html You'll have to copy and paste it into your browser. One of these days I'll figure out how to link.
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Post by mollycoddle on Jul 16, 2014 11:37:00 GMT
The Washington Post has some fair coverage, and here is an editorial about why Hamas rejected the cease-fire. It should be noted that this is the opinion of the WaPo editorial board, with which I happen to agree. Guess I better learn how to link articles!!
Washington Post editorial
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Deleted
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Oct 6, 2024 16:22:40 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2014 12:06:32 GMT
This is interesting:
www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4544412,00.html
I think that it is tragic that civilians are being killed. It should be pointed out, however, that in many cases they are actively pressured by Hamas NOT to evacuate. It is hard to believe, but look at the coverage. Hamas is using these deaths as propaganda tools. And a lot of the media appears to believe them. Look at the coverage in The Huffington Post, for example. It is, IMO, completely one-sided. Guess which side.
Gah, let me try that link again. I have never figured out how to use the link feature on this site, so I am just copying and pasting:
www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4544412,00.html You'll have to copy and paste it into your browser. One of these days I'll figure out how to link. I don't think that the deaths of so many civilians is being used as propaganda in any way. There is footage from independent world press journalist that are there to confirm that these deaths are taking place . Are you suggesting that they're all under the influence of Hamas? No of course they are not, they're reporting what they see. We had just the same amount of coverage about the rocket from Gaza that hit the gas station in Israel. The reason that there's more coverage of Gaza is that there is deaths and casualties of innocent civilians there. It's fine to give them warning but where are they going to evacuate too? Gaza is very very densely populated. The whole area is only about 25 miles by 6 miles and there's something like 1.7 million people living there. This is an interesting piece from your link Why would four international volunteers risk their lives to protect these vulnerable people if it was so easy for them to evacuate it as Israel maintains. If there are rocket launchers in the area,the Israelis have the capability and equipment to pin point exactly where they are. If they can fly over the area and drop leaflets they can also fly over and record exactly where these launchers are IMO. ETA - I also don't think that Egypt brokering the deal is going to work. There's no love lost between Hamas and Egypt, not since the military take over there. They need an independent to oversee the way forward or alternatively send in UN peace keeping forces in. Off topic - to add a link to your post click on the link and copy it,then click on the link icon at the top of your post ( to the left of the little envelope) remove the htpp from the ULR box and paste your link in there.
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~Lauren~
Pearl Clutcher
Posts: 3,876
Jun 26, 2014 3:33:18 GMT
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Post by ~Lauren~ on Jul 16, 2014 15:32:23 GMT
So Dotty, I'm just wondering what you think Israel should do; other than lay down and die?
Hamas and other terrorists intentionally hide missiles in civilian homes and hospitals. The Israeli's do everything they can to have people evacuated from those buildings. These weapons are being launched into Israeli civilian areas with no attempts by Hamas to keep civilians safe; their own or Israeli.
Just what should Israel do? Apologize that they have better defensive equipment and offensive capabilities? Stop their own counter-attacks and just let Hamas continue shelling Israeli citizens? Hamas had made it clear they have no intention of agreeing to cease-fires or treaties.
I find your comments offensive. If France was shelling London and all major cities of England, refused to a ceasefire, refused to any agreements not to shell civilian areas and insisted on placing the weaponry they were using against England in apartment buildings, day cares and hospitals, would you be telling your own government they were wrong for taking defensive actions? I don't think so and if you're honest with yourself, you'd agree that you would not.
Only Israel is expected to not only suffer these unprovoked attacks, but also to give up land and prisoners in the interests of a "peace" that is never adhered to by their enemies. And only Israel is rebuked for responding and protecting themselves. This is anti-semitism, plain and simple. This entire incident was started by the kidnap and murder of three Israel youths. Yes, some Israel's seized and murdered a Palestinian youth as retaliation. But, those Israelis have been charged and are being prosecuted for the murders. Is the same being done to the Palestinians who murdered the Israelis? (that's a facetious question as we all know those murderers are being cheered). The first rockets were fired by Palestinians; not Israel.
You feel bad for the Palestinians? Maybe they need to get the government they elected under control.
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Deleted
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Oct 6, 2024 16:22:40 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2014 15:56:07 GMT
"If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel"
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Post by BuckeyeSandy on Jul 16, 2014 16:43:38 GMT
I think Israel is more than justified in taking the kinds of precautions they do. After all, their entire neighborhood believes they have no right to exist and wishes to blow them off the map. My feelings though...like the other middle eastern conflicts, these issues have been going on for a long time. I don't think they're ever going to be resolved with everyone being satisfied. But IMO, Israel is only reacting to the attacks from Hamas. This is an eternal conflict that has predated modern times. No one side is 100% innocent or of pure intentions, and no one side is 100% guilty or of evil intentions. The current meme for it is "religious" basis, but that is not true, and there still would be wars and killing if it were ALL ONE RELIGION in the region... (oh wait, it had been for centuries and still it was a constant battle ground). "Palestine" is an artificial construct... There are regions elsewhere from the former Roman Empire that were also called "Palestine" and you see no one fighting over those territories today. (in modern day Germany for example) And if one wants to get REALLY historical about it, Palestine, as mapped by the Brits and French from the Arabs (based upon the Romans) was mostly in present day Syria and Jordan, NOT in the present day Israel. A fact ignored by almost everyone. And I see there was an earlier post giving a thumbnail history, Bravo!! Once again, late...
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Post by I-95 on Jul 16, 2014 16:53:47 GMT
Do you think it was a coincident that two enemies of Israel just happened to be living in the flat above a residential care facility for the disabled? This tactic is the MO of Hamas. This is what they do to make the world think that Israel is killing innocent, disabled civilians. The leadership of Hamas knows that their members are targets for Israel, so they put their own citizens in an untenable position and then tell the world 'Look was those murderous Israelis did to our people'
You do not see Israelis dancing in the street when any Palestinian is killed, whether it's a civilian or a terrorist. Do we care if civilians are hurt or killed in the defense of Israel? YES. Would we rather live in peaceful coexistence with the Palestinians? YES. Would we help the Palestinians build a place to call home? YES. Would we give them financial support if they would do that? YES. Will we continue to protect ourselves from Hamas attacks? YES. Will we lay down and die to please Hamas? NO!
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Deleted
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Oct 6, 2024 16:22:40 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2014 16:59:16 GMT
And I just want to state that I do not think Israel should lay down or anything of the sort. I just abhor any violence and think that neither side is completely innocent. But every life is sacred. Palestinian or Israeli.
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Post by *KatyCupcake* on Jul 16, 2014 17:01:09 GMT
Do you think it was a coincident that two enemies of Israel just happened to be living in the flat above a residential care facility for the disabled? This tactic is the MO of Hamas. This is what they do to make the world think that Israel is killing innocent, disabled civilians. The leadership of Hamas knows that their members are targets for Israel, so they put their own citizens in an untenable position and then tell the world 'Look was those murderous Israelis did to our people' You do not see Israelis dancing in the street when any Palestinian is killed, whether it's a civilian or a terrorist. Do we care if civilians are hurt or killed in the defense of Israel? YES. Would we rather live in peaceful coexistence with the Palestinians? YES. Would we help the Palestinians build a place to call home? YES. Would we give them financial support if they would do that? YES. Will we continue to protect ourselves from Hamas attacks? YES. Will we lay down and die to please Hamas? NO! This must be repeated because it is so easy to be upset with Israel whenever an innocent Palestinian civilian becomes a victim. It isn't because Israel wants them dead. It's because Hama's motto is "We love death as much as the Jews love life." They embrace martyrdom and purposefully use innocent civilians as shields for their weapons and the terrorist members who plot and carry out jihad. Hamas has ONE goal and one goal only- to wipe the nation of Israel off the map. Israel simply is doing what it needs to do in order to protect their own civilian population and ensure their nation can continue to exist.
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Post by *KatyCupcake* on Jul 16, 2014 17:07:32 GMT
And I just want to state that I do not think Israel should lay down or anything of the sort. I just abhor any violence and think that neither side is completely innocent. But every life is sacred. Palestinian or Israeli. I do agree with you but I also believe in the right of a person or nation to use self-defense when another person or group attacks with intention to kill/destroy. When Hamas believes the opposite- that Jewish lives aren't sacred- and act with intention to murder as many Jews as possible using terrorism and violence, it becomes too complicated to simply avoid any violence.
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Post by lorieann13 on Jul 16, 2014 17:10:55 GMT
Dh's friend/co-worker lost 6 family members on these strikes. Husband, wife, kids. As well as 2 additional adults. All they were doing was sitting at home and at a restaurant watching the world cup. (They are Isralies)
Its sickening. Plain and simple.
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Post by I-95 on Jul 16, 2014 18:08:22 GMT
I totally agree with you, as do most Israelis, but do you see a solution for any of this? I don't know anyone who revels in the loss of life on either side, but just saying you abhor the violence doesn't help when rockets are being fired at you. The biggest problem is that Hamas doesn't abhor violence, they do revel in it.
I'm confused...when did this happen? To the best of my knowledge only one Israeli has been killed since this recent round of fighting started. I'm positive it would have been all over the news, both here and worldwide, if a family had been killed.
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mapchic
Junior Member
Posts: 62
Jun 26, 2014 0:16:00 GMT
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Post by mapchic on Jul 16, 2014 19:01:17 GMT
Do you think it was a coincident that two enemies of Israel just happened to be living in the flat above a residential care facility for the disabled? This tactic is the MO of Hamas. This is what they do to make the world think that Israel is killing innocent, disabled civilians. The leadership of Hamas knows that their members are targets for Israel, so they put their own citizens in an untenable position and then tell the world 'Look was those murderous Israelis did to our people' You do not see Israelis dancing in the street when any Palestinian is killed, whether it's a civilian or a terrorist. Do we care if civilians are hurt or killed in the defense of Israel? YES. Would we rather live in peaceful coexistence with the Palestinians? YES. Would we help the Palestinians build a place to call home? YES. Would we give them financial support if they would do that? YES. Will we continue to protect ourselves from Hamas attacks? YES. Will we lay down and die to please Hamas? NO! This story is a perfect example of Hamas using innocents as human shields. *Of course* the Hamas leaders weren't in the building... they skedaddled when the phone call came from the IDF that the building would be destroyed. *Of course* they left behind the disabled neighbors to serve as innocent victims in future propaganda. It's all standard operating procedure. Only topped by the times when Hamas calls for innocents to intentionally go into buildings they know will be destroyed. You can watch this video and see that... When discussing this issue is always helpful to remember this quote from Golda Meir (Israeli PM 1969-1974) "Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us." Clearly we haven't reached that point.
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MizIndependent
Drama Llama
Quit your bullpoop.
Posts: 5,836
Jun 25, 2014 19:43:16 GMT
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Post by MizIndependent on Jul 16, 2014 19:07:40 GMT
The video 'Gaza what you are not being told' is the worst kind of sensationalizing propaganda. I hate that I have to respond to it but one should always speak out against these kinds of lies and falsehoods. At the 45 second mark (yes, that soon) the claim is made that because the kidnappers were speaking Hebrew they must be Israeli. That is a leap. There are non-Israelis who speak Hebrew, just as there Israeli Jews who speak Arabic. Particularly in a situation like this where the kidnappers are just repeating a simple phrase (heads down) they might not even actually *speak* Hebrew and could have just memorized the phrase. Natural gas? Really? This is the worst kind of black helicopter tinfoil hat conspiracy theorizing (Arafat hardly died under 'suspicious circumstances' - he was old and sick). 2:20 "These are the motives of all wars. Resources, territory and power." Nope. There is a long (really, really long) ongoing debate about what is the motive of all sorts of wars - economics or nationalism. What we are dealing with in Gaza is one group (Arabs) who viciously ethnically hate another group (Jews) and have vowed to destroy them. 2:30 "Always stand against wars of aggression". Ok, what does the creator of this video think of the fact that in 1948 at the very birth of Israel neighboring countries including Egypt, Transjordan, Lebanon, Syria, and Iraq sent invasion forces to try and destroy the new country? What about the subsequent wars in 1967 and 1973? If this person is opposed to wars of aggression then they should recognize that Israel has a primarily defensive stance. I think his problem is that Israel din't in a defensive crouch but rather stands ready and willing to defend itself. 2:45 "How many Palestinian corpses does it take to equal one Israeli". How about we look at the case of the exchange for Gilad Shalit - an Israeli soldier abducted by Hamas. Hamas then only returned him in exchange for 1027 Palestinian prisoners. So it looks like the number is 1 Israeli equals 1027 Arabs. At least according to Hamas. Again and again Hamas has created crisis which result in exchanges you can read about them here. 3:10 talks about images of civilian casualties. Well, we have already seen instances where the images were false (from other conflicts). Additionally the IDF has gone to great lengths to warn civilians to get away from buildings that will be bombed (the great video of the knock, knock bombing earlier in the thread shows this). The choice is being made by leaders to sacrifice their civilians. The spokesman for Hamas has called for people to act as human shields which you can watch for yourself on this video. 3:50 "These primitive rockets have not killed one single Israeli" Not for lack of trying. Just because someone fails to kill you doesn't mean you shouldn't have the right to defend yourself. 4:20 "Puny homemade rockets" They are rockets fully capable of killing. Designed to kill as many Jews as possible. The unibomber killed with homemade bombs... didn't make him less evil. If the people who spent their time, money and energy building rockets (not entirely 'homemade' btw) on educating and advancing their own culture the whole world would be better off - the residents of Gaza most of all. 5:40 "Maps don't lie." True. Maps are inanimate objects and don't lie. That said people often use maps to lie and misrepresent the world around them. So what happened between the 1967 map and the map of 2010 that is shown in the video? The six day war and the Yom Kippur War. Those times when Israel was attacked by it's neighbors (Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Iraq) simultaneously as they tried to 'push Israel into the sea'. Israel won and was able to take the territories necessary to maintain their security. The same as has happened throughout history. 6:20 "Right of return" As I said above - what about the rights of the Jews who were expelled from countries throughout the region? If we are going to play the 'You can't have it both ways' game that knife cuts deep throughout the region. OK, I give up. I can't believe I lasted that long. Believe it or not, Mapchic, I really do appreciate you taking the time to break that down. I freely admit that sometimes I get taken in by some of the things I read and see online, usually when I fail to take time to fully read/view whatever source I'm looking at. This is one of the things I am grateful to the Peas for...helping straightening me out when I need it. Clearly this video is from one point of view, I knew that when I saw it, I guess I just didn't fully realize how one-sided it is. I will take better care in future though.
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scrappinghappy
Pearl Clutcher
“I’m late, I’m late for a very important date. No time to say “Hello.” Goodbye. I’m late...."
Posts: 4,307
Jun 26, 2014 19:30:06 GMT
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Post by scrappinghappy on Jul 16, 2014 19:12:10 GMT
Just have to put the full quote out here as there was more to it mapchic"We can forgive the Arabs for killing our children. We cannot forgive them for forcing us to kill their children. We will have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us." ~ Golda Meir
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Post by BeckyTech on Jul 16, 2014 19:46:26 GMT
Yes he is referring to Israeli air strikes. The targeting of civilians is a violation of the Geneva convention and is classed as war crimes. Israel have the knowledge and the military equipment to be able to precisely target a certain building. Hamas don't have the knowledge or the equipment. That isn't an excuse for them to fire their rockets though. I have no problem with Israel targeting rocket launching sites to destroy Hamas capabilities to launch the rockets,that to me is justified in protecting themselves. Hamas wouldn't use precision bombing if they had it. Their aim, repeated frequently and loudly, is to kill Jews. They don't care whether they are civilians or combatants. Their repeated attacks and suicide bombers are evidence of that. What I, and many others around the world have a problem with is, they are targeting the homes of Hamas members too, where there are no rocket launchers. The buildings are being targeted because according to their intelligence Hamas members live there. In doing so they are also killing and injuring innocent civilians and lets face it, not all Palestinians are Hamas members. Hamas only gathered 45% of the votes at the elections that brought them to power. Hamas doesn't have a central headquarters, they operate out of their homes by choice (a central headquarters would be an easy target). Bombing the homes of their leaders is a tactical move to disrupt their capability to plan operations and try to keep them disorganized. Israel phones the homes to warn of the impending bombing, they drop leaflets, and they use the "knock knock" unarmed rocket to warn everyone in the building to evacuate before the actual bombing. They do everything in their power to avoid killing civilians. The Hamas leaders will evacuate their immediate family, but that's about it. As to the population that are not members of Hamas, as a group they are in full support of their Hamas leaders and the philosophy to "kill all the Jews" as evidenced by the dancing in the streets over the deaths of the teens. See previous pages of this thread where that hatred is instilled from the time they are toddlers. They may not be members, but as a whole, they are supporters. If Israel has gathered enough intelligence to know that Hamas members are living in these buildings then surely it's not unreasonable for them to also have the intelligence gathering that tell them that there are innocent people also living in these building. A five month old baby was killed this morning. Now please, someone tell me what threat does a five month old baby have to anyone. Here's another case. Here's the link from one report, there are others confirming the same incident if you want to google it linkAs to where they are expected to go to get out of harms way, there are UN schools and facilities and other neighborhoods (remember, they bomb one building, not an entire neighborhood). Unfortunately, the Palestinians do not build bomb shelters for their people. They don't care enough to do that. Israeli intelligence about the locations of rocket launchers, weapons stores, and Hamas leaders is quite good, but not flawless. I read the article you provided and here is a key sentence: "Even those who could move suffer from severe mental handicaps." Perfect bomb fodder for Hamas, they love to parade civilian deaths before the world and leaving defenseless people in harms way is a common practice. Look, I'm no expert and I don't pretend to be, but the biggest disconnect I see is that so many are looking at this conflict through the lens of our Western way of thinking where we value individual people. I think that was one of the hardest things for me to grasp: the Palestinians don't care about the lives of their own people. [Aside]I've read a few autobiographies from people who were born in that part of the world and that is one of the big takeaways from their books: the epiphanies they had when they realized they were valued as people by the western world, but not by their own societies.[/end aside] Look at the evidence: - The tent cities were started and still exist today as a PR move on their part. They never needed to exist in the first place!
- They put their weapons stores and rocket launchers in fully functional and operating hospitals, schools, apartment buildings, and so on, knowing full well that the Israeli's are going to have to take them out at some point.
- They exhort their citizens to act as human shields around their armament stores, rocket launchers, and leaders, knowing full well that there will be casualties. In some cases, the citizens have a gun to their backs so that they cannot leave. That's how much they want those civilian deaths.
- There are no Hamas-built bomb shelters. (They are actually being criticized for that by the Arab press.)
- They have initiated every skirmish/war.
In another message you say: "I don't think that the deaths of so many civilians is being used as propaganda in any way." I can only respond that you should look at the evidence. They cause those deaths themselves by starting a bombardment and hiding behind innocent civilians and then parading their bodies before the media with big crocodile tears. Yes, those deaths are used as propaganda.
(ETA: Dotty, don't mean this message to be some type of pile-on, it's just that your original asked questions I'm sure others had. Plus, I had most of this done, then went to the dog park, so when I finally posted, I see there were plenty of other responses that addressed some of your points/questions.)
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Post by mollycoddle on Jul 16, 2014 20:03:33 GMT
This is interesting:
www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4544412,00.html
I think that it is tragic that civilians are being killed. It should be pointed out, however, that in many cases they are actively pressured by Hamas NOT to evacuate. It is hard to believe, but look at the coverage. Hamas is using these deaths as propaganda tools. And a lot of the media appears to believe them. Look at the coverage in The Huffington Post, for example. It is, IMO, completely one-sided. Guess which side.
Gah, let me try that link again. I have never figured out how to use the link feature on this site, so I am just copying and pasting:
www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4544412,00.html You'll have to copy and paste it into your browser. One of these days I'll figure out how to link. I don't think that the deaths of so many civilians is being used as propaganda in any way. There is footage from independent world press journalist that are there to confirm that these deaths are taking place . Are you suggesting that they're all under the influence of Hamas? No of course they are not, they're reporting what they see. We had just the same amount of coverage about the rocket from Gaza that hit the gas station in Israel. The reason that there's more coverage of Gaza is that there is deaths and casualties of innocent civilians there. It's fine to give them warning but where are they going to evacuate too? Gaza is very very densely populated. The whole area is only about 25 miles by 6 miles and there's something like 1.7 million people living there. This is an interesting piece from your link Why would four international volunteers risk their lives to protect these vulnerable people if it was so easy for them to evacuate it as Israel maintains. If there are rocket launchers in the area,the Israelis have the capability and equipment to pin point exactly where they are. If they can fly over the area and drop leaflets they can also fly over and record exactly where these launchers are IMO. ETA - I also don't think that Egypt brokering the deal is going to work. There's no love lost between Hamas and Egypt, not since the military take over there. They need an independent to oversee the way forward or alternatively send in UN peace keeping forces in. Off topic - to add a link to your post click on the link and copy it,then click on the link icon at the top of your post ( to the left of the little envelope) remove the htpp from the ULR box and paste your link in there. To answer your question, I believe that those deaths are taking place. Journalists are seeing horrific carnage and are reporting it. But I also believe that Hamas is orchestrating many of those deaths by hiding weapon infrastructure in hospitals and the like. I also believe that they exhort citizens to act as human shields and remain after being given a warning. Then when those people are killed, they film the carnage and tell everyone how heartless the Israelis are. Hamas has decided that winning the propaganda war is more important than the lives of its citizens. PS_Thanks for the link explanation!
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Post by *KatyCupcake* on Jul 16, 2014 20:25:16 GMT
Just have to put the full quote out here as there was more to it mapchic"We can forgive the Arabs for killing our children. We cannot forgive them for forcing us to kill their children. We will have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us." ~ Golda Meir This is incredibly powerful! I'm glad you shared it.
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Post by *KatyCupcake* on Jul 16, 2014 20:29:44 GMT
This is one of the things I am grateful to the Peas for...helping straightening me out when I need it. Clearly this video is from one point of view, I knew that when I saw it, I guess I just didn't fully realize how one-sided it is. I will take better care in future though. This is beautiful. Thank you for being open to hearing more and adjusting your perspective once new information has been presented.
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mapchic
Junior Member
Posts: 62
Jun 26, 2014 0:16:00 GMT
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Post by mapchic on Jul 16, 2014 21:07:27 GMT
Just have to put the full quote out here as there was more to it mapchic"We can forgive the Arabs for killing our children. We cannot forgive them for forcing us to kill their children. We will have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us." ~ Golda Meir Thanks for sharing the whole quote. Just an aside - I love Golda Meir. She is one of my historical heroes and someone that I think women should really look up to. She changed the world. There are an amazing number of great quotes from her because she was super smart and quotable. I would point to her as an example of what sets Israel apart from her neighbors. A woman leader who helped create the nation and spoke for it on the world stage... not something you often see in that region.
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Post by *KatyCupcake* on Jul 16, 2014 21:12:16 GMT
Just have to put the full quote out here as there was more to it mapchic"We can forgive the Arabs for killing our children. We cannot forgive them for forcing us to kill their children. We will have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us." ~ Golda Meir Thanks for sharing the whole quote. Just an aside - I love Golda Meir. She is one of my historical heroes and someone that I think women should really look up to. She changed the world. There are an amazing number of great quotes from her because she was super smart and quotable. I would point to her as an example of what sets Israel apart from her neighbors. A woman leader who helped create the nation and spoke for it on the world stage... not something you often see in that region.And no doubt something that irritated the heck out of many neighboring Arab nations where women's rights are non-existent! An EDUCATED woman who doesn't allow a man to speak for her but instead speaks on behalf of her entire nation. So very different from the limitations Sharia Law places on Muslim women.
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